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As I have not got a SD myself I wouldent know the actual Summons strength/power

BUT what I have been told is that its an Outsider instead of Undead

So whats the big difference between the Shadow Conjuration Summon Shadow vs the Shadow Dancer summoned Shadow?

Because the SC Shadow is classed as Undead not an Outsider.....

Any Clarification Lore-wise I might be able to wriggle out of people with better knowledge?
Or is this just an oversight in the Shadow summons overhaul where SC summons just got overlooked on Race?

Sc shadows are undead, SD shadows are outsiders.

I know that but Why the difference between them?

Shadowdancers have links to the Shadow Plane, whereas the shadow Conjuration spell doesn't. It's a thematic/detailsy difference.

is there really a true difference? or is it just hardcoaded that way? i don't think there is one in P&P.

It's an amian distinction because SD's can't choose to have the ability to summon it or not. Hence it's an outsider and not undead such as not to ruin any potential good SD's that might follow Kelemvor or somesuch.

Part of the reason at least.

Quanta wrote:

is there really a true difference? or is it just hardcoaded that way? i don't think there is one in P&P.

Manual of the Planes offers a Shadow Plane variant for the SD, which we make use of.

So its the Spell difference of having a SD call a shadow from the Plane of Shadows so its an outsider?
But where does the SC shadow come from? Not sure why it would be different? or at least how it would be Undead

It's different because it just is, basically. Asking "why does the SD shadow ability summon an Outsider" is like asking "why does the fireball spell call up a ball of fire." That's simply what it was designed to do. Because a million years ago when some unknown NPC genius SD conceived the ability and figured out a way to accomplish it, that's the effect he happened to pursue. I suppose that awesome ancestral SD might have tried to find a way to call up an undead thing, but he didn't. He chased after Outsiders, so now the people following in his footsteps do it that way, too.

I always thought it was that an SD's Shadow is his impression on the Shadow Plane that he can call to help him. Shadows that come form the Shadow Variants are already-existing creatures, the naturally occurring undead Shadows.

TormakSaber wrote:

Shadowdancers have links to the Shadow Plane, whereas the shadow Conjuration spell doesn't. It's a thematic/detailsy difference.

Where did I read that "Shadow" subschooled Illusion spells are cast by using a small fragment of extraplanar material called Shadowstuff to make the illusions semi-real, and does that not occur on Amia?

Complete Arcane most likely. That has a whole section on Shadow Magic.

But I could have sworn the Shadow Variants used shadow-stuff too. They're not supposed to have a connection to the Shadow Weave, was the thing. If they don't use Shadow material on Amia, I'd like to hear the official explanation of how they work.

That's the point I was getting at.

O. I might have expalained it wrong, but

Quote:

I always thought it was that an SD's Shadow is his impression on the Shadow Plane that he can call to help him. Shadows that come form the Shadow Variants are already-existing creatures, the naturally occurring undead Shadows

This was the intention, minus the "impression on the Shadow Plane" bit, though it's a nice flavor touch.

So....are Shadow Conj Shades undead? and should I treat them like it?

Yes. Shadows from the Shadow Variants are Undead. Yes, if you character is knowledgeable about such things.

So if I use the Shade it counts as necromancy? thats what I more wanted to know

You are summoning an undead, but you aren't animating a corpse. I doubt you sell that distinction very well to most undead haters, though!

Ugh ...

Anubis wrote:

Sc shadows are undead, SD shadows are outsiders.

Mr. Flambe wrote:

I know that but Why the difference between them?

Mr. Flambé wrote:

So....are Shadow Conj Shades undead? and should I treat them like it?

You silly person you.

TormakSaber wrote:

You are summoning an undead, but you aren't animating a corpse. I doubt you sell that distinction very well to most undead haters, though!

Besides that, they are very evil, very destructive creatures. They don't need to eat or feed on energy, they attack things simply because they hate... well pretty much everything and everyone. You don't have to be an undead-hater to dislike something that exists for no other reason than to destroy life.

Ok! I was trawling the Forums and just saw This in This thread

Lizzie wrote:

"Summon Shade summons a Planar shadow from the Shadow Plane. It is composed of negative energy but is not undead.

viewtopic.php?f=103&t=65873

Would this apply to the undead Shades IF the Shadow Plane was Replaced by the Negative Energy Plane? Seeing as it would be Akin to an Elemental AND an Undead in that case, Because Undead are animated via manipulation of Negative Energy a Being composed of the Stuff would be "Classed" as Undead, while not being Undead!

Although I find it hard to make sense of that myself, would this apply as how they are actually created. and how would a Paladin react to a "Negative Energy Being" Seeing as Negative energy is the opposite of Posative which is the Lifesource of most of stuff in Faerun (supposidly) Would they react like it was Undead like Animating a Skeleton?

I think you're trying to dance on both sides of a line that's mostly irrelevant.

Is suppose in theory, it's possible that an incorporeal "undead" might be substantially similar to a Negative Energy Elemental, and less like the zombie/vampire sort of thing than what people tend to think of when they think of "undead."

But it doesn't matter, IMHO. Even if you get a DM to rule that you can treat your undead as "sorta-kinda-undead-but-not-really-undead," you can't expect people IC to make that distinction. If you're summoning a thing that looks like an undead and behaves like an undead, people are going to react as though you're summoning an undead. If you encounter a paladin or Kelemvorite while you've got your "undead-but-not-undead" thing summoned, they're probably going to smite it or you or both, and they'll probably be right to do it.

Even the Shadow Plane Shades/Shadows are supposed to be undead in most canon material. It's originally just an Amian concession made for the numerous ranger/SDs or otherwise goodly SDs who wouldn't summon undead, no doubt. It's not an unreasonable concession, since the theme of SD has nothing to do with undeath, but you shouldn't read too much into it and try to expand it to other summons. Because it doesn't make perfect sense in the first place, even for SDs.

Shadow Conjuration Shade vs SD Shade

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