No, these ones in this topic (and also compiled in the DM-side topic, I believe). I've had to refer to them several times semi-recently, but their validity is somewhat in the air still. I mean, either they're canon or they're complete garbage that should be deleted because it's misleading. It's kinda ironic that I've campaigned against false lore for years and that's exactly what these articles are.
I wanted to write more, to be honest (especially about Baravar Cloakshadow, possibly Sune, and maybe Corellon now that he's been sanctioned as a real paladin patron), but I'm not sure if there's any interest in such. I know there's something related but a little different in the works, but do you reckon it's worth it to submit more for review?
My motivation for D&D/Amia seems to be directly related to writing related stuff on the side, haha.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
No, these ones in this topic (and also compiled in the DM-side topic, I believe). I've had to refer to them several times semi-recently, but their validity is somewhat in the air still. I mean, either they're canon or they're complete garbage that should be deleted because it's misleading. It's kinda ironic that I've campaigned against false lore for years and that's exactly what these articles are.
I wanted to write more, to be honest (especially about Baravar Cloakshadow, possibly Sune, and maybe Corellon now that he's been sanctioned as a real paladin patron), but I'm not sure if there's any interest in such. I know there's something related but a little different in the works, but do you reckon it's worth it to submit more for review?
My motivation for D&D/Amia seems to be directly related to writing related stuff on the side, haha.
I'm always interested to know more about Baravar Cloakshadow and whether or not he actually does have paladins. I know Gaerdal Ironhand does have paladins.
_________________ Illithira Frostmaiden (Snow Elf) Guardian of the Frostfell Elithiel Issatheerin (Shadow Elf) She who Lurks Isolia Oussea'lylth (Sun Elf) Apprentice Wizardess
He even has a specifically mentioned paladin order, which makes it so interesting.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Question: paladins of the Harmonious Order of Milil are accompanied by bards on their quests to compose songs of their deeds and all that jazz. There is a mention about the bards in CoV: "(whom they tolerate despite alignment differences.)"
Do you think this says what I want it to say? That they may tolerate bards of any alignment insofar as they are doing their job in the context of a great quest? That is to say, evil bards?
I think it means exactly that, for two reasons: first, that's what it literally says. Despite alignment differences. No qualifications. Secondly, because saying it wouldn't be very relevant if it didn't apply to evil bards; paladins already tolerate adventuring companions of any neutral or good alignment as per the PHB. It needn't be stressed. And it's part of their faith not to stop musicians (or anyone) from enjoying their art.
However, I must admit it might simply refer to supposed difficulties between lawful and chaotic characters getting along in the same party. I'm sure there are many sources which state paladins and bards may have some differences when they try to adventure together. If that's all it is, it's a rather disappointing banality to print it.
Am I reading too much into it?
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
As I argued in another thread, the paladin's code against associating with evil characters should apply to the sort of close, ongoing, working relationships that a formalized "adventuring party" would imply. I think the bit you quoted about tolerating alignment differences is meant to speak to the restriction that "a paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good." In the case you cite, a paladin may accept henchmen etc., only if they are lawful good *or* bards who don't offend the other aspects of the paladin's code of conduct.
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Mm, that's possible. What exactly are cohorts, followers or henchmen, though? They're apparently a game concept, but I'm not sure what kind of NPCs they are. Paladins, fighters, some of the NPC-only classes? Bards are generally PCs, I doubt you could even get one as a redshirt follower.
The henchman clause is pretty obscure anyhow, and not referred to in lore. Not every paladin and fighter in the Realms builds a stronghold with followers, even if that's what PCs get to do at a certain level. It seems unlikely that's what the writers were thinking about.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
It is a good question. I noticed the term "aggressively evil" come up in a section while writing up paladin materials, which suggests there is evil and then there is aggressive evil.
My view? I have always been of the opinion that paladins do not operate like machines. That being, they do not have a mathematical function that is, "Detect Evil, if evil, then destroy. If not destroy, then Fall."
The canon material for DnD makes a point about talking about evil in degrees. Lesser evils and greater evils that can be detected. When it relates to HD, it tends to assume that an evil person, as they become more powerful, tends to have more tricks and powers and items and things that constantly entice him towards evil behavior. I guess. That's the best explanation I can come up with on the fly.
But the point is that, when I play a paladin and I detect evil on a companion, my paladin doesn't exactly say anything, but he immediately goes on vigilant watch mode. My Lathandran paladin in particular would do this (even in tabletop), and yet always be patient and cordial. He might seem a bit cooler in attitude towards the person, but never impolite. Some people detect as evil because they are just selfish individuals who, while they may not be plotting anything nefarious, will, under certain circumstances, place others in harm's way in order to get ahead themselves. These are not evils that need to be slain in advance of that decision, but rather opportunities for redemption and education.
I assume that a similar mindset is used in that "alignment exception" you reference. At first I assumed they must mean that a lot of bards are chaotic in nature and paladins tolerate their flaunting of the law. Which might actually be what they mean precisely, and they just gaffed, not realizing that essentially "good/evil" tends to be more critical for the paladin.
But if they do tolerate "evil bards", it is probably only in the context that these bards are sworn to Milil, that they aren't aggressive evils but rather benign evils, and that the constant exposure to them is a consistent opportunity for the paladin to both monitor the bard to make sure he doesn't hurt somebody errantly, or better, to help him turn over a new leaf with good counsel and stewardship.
...yeah, I know that sounds naive, but I have stated this about paladins before: as paragons of virtue, it is common for them to seem like utopian superheroes, always believing in or working towards ideals that have a very, very low probability of producing fruit. (But the fruit that it produces is ambrosia itself, when it does.)
Well..you cannot say that of LAthanderites of the Order of the Aster...they are known to violent, a bit like the Companions of the Noble heart. A deity can have more than one aspect as we have noticed already
Question: paladins of the Harmonious Order of Milil are accompanied by bards on their quests to compose songs of their deeds and all that jazz. There is a mention about the bards in CoV: "(whom they tolerate despite alignment differences.)"
Do you think this says what I want it to say? That they may tolerate bards of any alignment insofar as they are doing their job in the context of a great quest? That is to say, evil bards?
I think it means exactly that, for two reasons: first, that's what it literally says. Despite alignment differences. No qualifications. Secondly, because saying it wouldn't be very relevant if it didn't apply to evil bards; paladins already tolerate adventuring companions of any neutral or good alignment as per the PHB. It needn't be stressed. And it's part of their faith not to stop musicians (or anyone) from enjoying their art.
However, I must admit it might simply refer to supposed difficulties between lawful and chaotic characters getting along in the same party. I'm sure there are many sources which state paladins and bards may have some differences when they try to adventure together. If that's all it is, it's a rather disappointing banality to print it.
Am I reading too much into it?
Well... First thing, I don't see a paladin objecting to the presence of a NG Mililite bard, they're only one alignment step away, serve the same diety, both out to do good, they'd likely enjoy each other's company. Even a CG bard they'd likely get along with. Granted, there might be some conflicts if the bard indulges in their chaotic side, but overall I think they should be able to do whatever mission they're both on despite some bumps. A lot of it depends on how the bard behaves. If they're overall goodly and out to help people, I don't see too many problems developing. If they do things like bend and break some city's laws for amusement or even to help their mission, I can certainly see some conflict developing. If it's just something like a CG bard verbally abusing or wittily taunting an enemy to a poetic extent I could see a Paladin of Milil enjoying that.
I certainly think a Paladin of Milil knowingly taking along an -evil- bard is stretching it, but I think Yoss covers this nicely though. Personally though, I can't really see a Paladin of Milil taking an evil bard knowingly on one of their missions unless there were some pretty extenuating circumstances involved.
Where it gets to be a grey area I think would be if a Paladin of Milil has a CN bard along, and the type of CN person that is extremely difficult to deal with. They may not do anything outright -evil-, but they can certainly grate on a paladin's nerves all the same. Examples might include excessively baiting the law which could get the bard and their friends in trouble, pulling pranks on people just for their own amusement, even if it's clear the recipient isn't enjoying it. Could excessively try to woo members of the opposite gender for one-night stands. I imagine things like petty theft which I know CN rogues are prone to doing would get even a paladin of Milil upset/angry. Some of the things they might get a chuckle out of but I can certainly see a CN bard pushing his bounds of good courtesy. By contrast, I would think a paladin of Helm would have literally no patience with a CN bard pulling these stunts and while he might not smite him because he's not doing anything outrageously evil, he might more easily break party with said bard or bludgeon the bard's face with their holy fists to teach them a lesson. Or they might turn them into the authorities for legitimately abusing the law.
Here's what I wrote on Baravar. Already got some feedback from an expert, so it's for Yossarin and the team to dissect now. (And of course, anyone with some important point to make should voice it.)
Paladins of Baravar Cloakshadow wrote:
Baravar Cloakshadow is the gnome deity of deception, warding, illusion and other magic. The Sly One can be a vengeful god with a mean streak, but he is thoroughly devoted to protecting the Forgotten Folk from their enemies. The efforts of his church in fighting goblins and kobolds are well recognized, but their methods have earned them some distrust. It is thus surprising to find a fair number of paladins serving the church of the Cloakshadow.
The duty of a Baravaran paladin is clear: to protect gnomekind from races that would do them harm. Kobolds and goblinoids are their sworn enemies, and they show no mercy to such creatures they consider beyond redemption. Some paladins wander out into the world to seek out enemies to destroy, often teaming up with taller adventurers to manipulate them into serving the good cause. Others stay closer to home, vigilantly maintaining and devising wards, traps and illusions to shield the community from threats.
Gnomes are a quiet folk, and none among them are as secretive as the church of the Sly One. Baravaran paladins avoid boastful shows of chivalry or public deeds of righteousness. It is imperative that they keep a low profile, for drawing attention with heroic deeds would only invite retaliation against the gnomish people. Many gnome communities exist virtually unnoticed within or nearby the settlements of other races, without mighty defenses of their own, so they cannot afford to draw the ire of strong enemies. Rather than flaunting her faith in shining armor, the Baravaran paladin might pose as a friendly baker or weaver, fulfilling her duties in secret. The Cloakshadow's dogma warns against too much trust, and thus his paladins prefer to reveal as little as possible about their work. Secrecy is the best defense, and too much information is dangerous not only to the paladin but to the civilians she is sworn to protect.
The human concept of honor is at odds with gnomish ways. While a paladin of Torm would prefer to solve conflicts in single combat, Baravarans have no qualms about utilizing traps, illusions, stealth, ambushes and other forms of deception to gain the upper hand or avoid fighting altogether. Daggers and magic wands are also standard equipment. A paladin will be gentler in her tricks than the average priest, avoiding deadly traps or murder without warning. The same goes for clandestine operations of stealth: a paladin may spy on an enemy camp or even on civilized associates to gain information and devise plans, but she will not perform assassinations or deadly sabotage.
Let's take an example: a group of goblins has settled nearby the hidden gnome village. They're pillaging the wilderness and getting closer to home. While the more militant gnomes prepare to march out and confront this threat, a paladin of Baravar decides to take care of the situation. She has a few options. If she's skilled at illusions or more mundane methods of forgery, she might create signs of an orc lair near the goblin camp, scaring them off. Or she could divert an important stream or drive a way a herd of wild animals from their territory to force the goblins to relocate after the resources. With the help of truly skilled illusionists, she might fake a forest fire. All such methods leave the goblins alive to cause further trouble, however. She might instead join a mercenary band and steer them towards the goblin territory, perhaps sneaking ahead to collapse a bridge or fell a tree on their path. If there is a powerful human city or dwarven hold nearby, she could either drive the goblins to raid its grain storages or simply make it look like they're causing trouble. Some material damage is a fair tradeoff for getting the tall folk to march against the goblins. However, the paladin will do everything in her power to eventually recompense the damage she caused, whether the humans and dwarves realize it or not. Whichever solution the paladin chooses, she takes special care not to implicate the gnomes. If by her actions the community becomes a target, she has failed her duty in the worst way imaginable.
The faith of Baravar is not without a bright side. The faithful are encouraged to devote themselves to their art as well as those they love with fervor, as that is what gives meaning to their struggle. Gnomish enthusiasm animates even most paladins, and they may devote considerable time to tinkering with magical artifacts, developing new illusions or perfecting some other fun and useful craft. Like the followers of Garl Glittergold, they too appreciate jokes and pranks.
Serving the god of deception as a paladin is a difficult road. The paladin must constantly balance her dignity and devotion to the good and rightful with her dedication to getting her job done with the tools promoted by her church. She will have often sworn an oath never to reveal the secrets of the church and her people, but blatant lies will compromise her position. She is expected to fight enemies fiercely but she must be wary not to become cruel and spiteful. She relies on misdirection and deception, but never confronting a foe may breed cowardice and dishonor. For entertainment, she enjoys ruthless pranks, but they must not be malicious in spirit. And when does healthy mistrust become unjustified paranoia even towards her allies? First and foremost, paladins of Baravar Cloakshadow are smart. Sometimes reconciling the smart thing with the right thing is hard, but it's a balancing act they must succeed at.
The Knights of the Shadowy Cloak are a notable organization in the church Baravar. Though not exclusively a paladin order, many paladins serve in their ranks. Many paladins of the order also train as rogues or illusionists, and gain access to spells such as invisibility, camouflage, displacement and dimension door. The order – and paladins of the Cloakshadow in general – are somewhat at odds with the stern followers of Gaerdal Ironhand. Though equally devoted to the protection of the Forgotten Folk, the two faiths disagree on method and strategy: the followers of Gaerdal would show martial vigilance to deter any enemy from challenging the gnomes, whereas Baravarans prefer to avoid the attention altogether and rely on wit over muscle. Gnomes aspiring for paladinhood may choose between these two extremes of the gnomish mentality. (There are less popular opinions inbetween, of course.) Though not as disciplined and physically demanding, the path of the Cloakshadow is no doubt the riskier one.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Last edited by IronAngel on Mon, Jun 25 2012, 19:56 PM, edited 1 time in total.
I made a slight edit to stress that the paladin herself is bound by her honor to compensate for whatever damage she causes by her tricks, though she probably won't do it publically. Most of the time the entire gnome community will do their part, of course, but the paladin will ultimately shoulder the cost if no one else will.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Does anyone have suggestion about where to find lore on Paladins of Bahamut? If not, would be a nice addition to the little list of paladins, imho.
---Thanks
_________________ Lady Ravanna Iheludrim, Sun Elf Sorceress, Former Councillor of Myth Winya Ravana Miss ~A. F.~ (Potion Brewer Extraordinaire) Veruca Thornhill, Paladin of the Lord of the North Wind [Retired]
I was thinking about Sune and Corellon. I got some good comments from PhantomDream and Xaviera about Sune, but I still don't have an angle to go from.
Bahamut seems rather vanilla in that the only thing setting him apart from other arch goodies is the dragon aspect. Tormak probably knows more about him and dragons than I. Hmm, I think there might be a recent surge of popularity after the Dark Flight, perhaps honoring certain deceased dragon heroes as patron saints. If there's interest, I guess I'll look into it. In the woods with nothing but my laptop now, though, and next week in Belgium. So won't happen immediately.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
The spoils of downtime. Note: I made up the fact that there are paladins of Angharradh and Labelas Enoreth too (and possibly of other, unspecified gods), but it makes a lot of sense if we concede that Corellon has some. (And the Oath of Unity would fit Angharradh even better.) Still, since I consider elven "paladins" a bit of a marginal phenomenon and mostly a human misinterpretation, I think this covers the whole pantheon adequately.
Quote:
Paladins of Corellon Larethian
In its mores and strictures, rituals and even knightly aesthetics, paladinhood is a very human institution. Indeed, if you were to ask an elven scholar or theologian about paladins, he might claim there are none serving the Seldarine; that the elven gods and peoples have their champions, but they are not to be confused with human paladins. In part, this is clearly true: in elven society, many of the typical ”paladin” roles and tasks are fulfilled by divine champions and especially bladesingers. But among these heroes there are also those who can be identified as paladins and, thanks to centuries of cultural exchange, are often actually called that.
Excluding those who've lived among humans and adopted their gods, the vast majority of elven paladins serve Corellon Larethian. A handful can also be found with the cults of Angharradh and Labelas Enoreth. Sun elves are predictably the most likely to choose a paladin's life, but moon elven paladins aren't uncommon either. They're also more likely to leave their homes in Evereska, Silverymoon, or some smaller settlement to wander Faerûn. In the past, it was rare to find a sun elf paladin outside Evermeet or Evereska other than on brief missions of artifact recovery or pilgrimage. However, the end of the Retreat and the ongoing Crusade against the fey'ri has recently brought many of Evermeet's champions to the mainland, and young elves are enthusiastic to fight for their People.
Corellon the Protector is the patron of magic, arts, crafts, war and elven culture in general. As such, his paladins represent the archetypical essence of elvenhood. They wage war against orcs and drow, recover ancient artifacts, help devise new spells and magical items, protect temples and pilgrims, and enjoy the arts and studies that are part of their training. Material wealth isn't given a particularly high status is elven culture, so poverty isn't considered an important paladin virtue either. Paladins of Corellon will often wear fine clothing and simple jewellry like any elf of high status, and their ancestral weapons are invaluable. Humility is another human virtue the elves do not care for: pride in one's family history, skill and achievements is the mark of an honorable elf. Unjustified arrogance and pomp, however, are frowned upon. Especially among the sun elves, tradition is held in high regard. Where human paladins are concerned with legality or abstract concepts of honor, for paladins of Corellon tradition is the measure of right and wrong. The idea of local practices or a personal code of conduct is not very central to them: the People are as one, and to do what they've always done is to do the right thing.
The paladins work closely with bladesingers, and they also share their highest guideline: never leave an elf undefended. A paladin of Corellon will not walk away from an elf in need, even if the elf was undeserving. An elf's business is the paladin's business. This means they may easily come at odds with local authorities or get tangled in bloody disputes, so the virtues of caution and patience are important. Let's take an example: a wandering paladin passes through a human village, where he hears about a moon elf accused of horse theft. He immediately sets aside his adventure to investigate the matter. It seems the evidence weigh against the man and punishment awaits. The paladin may choose to stay and act as the elf's spokesman in court, either to discover his innocence or simply support a guilty kinsman in trouble. However, if the punishment is particularly severe, the judgement unjust, or the paladin particularly radical, he may choose to negotiate for the prisoner or even break him out and deliver him to elven authorities. Paladins of Corellon do their best to respect human laws, but many believe elven matters should ultimately be handled by elves – especially in cases of corporal or capital punishment.
The People, Te'lQuessir, have a sense of community that humans lack. Elven unity is a guiding principle that paladins of Corellon revere. As part of their code of conduct, many paladins swear an Oath of Unity never to raise weapon against kin or do anything that would drive a wedge between elves. To preserve this internal unity, the People have of course had to redefine themselves from time to time: the drow are hardly the only malcontents to be thrown out of the happy family. Occasionally paladins of Corellon have to fight embittered outcasts trying to harm their kin. Still, many paladins wish to bring these lost sheep back into the fold through forgiveness and reform.
There are no elven paladin orders, of Corellon or otherwise. Some paladins join knightly companies like the Swords of Evereska, Fellowship of the Forgotten Flower, or the likes of Wings of Yathaghera, the Knights of the Alicorn, and the Vassals of the Reverend Ones on Evermeet. Many paladins simply associate themselves with a specific temple and congregate loosely around local clergy. Others have pledged service to Seiveril Miritar and the other leaders of the Crusade. Ultimately, most paladins are loyal to Queen Amlaruil Moonflower of Evermeet and to the Seldarine, and they need no strict hierarchy to govern their actions.
Paladins of Corellon tend to learn at least some magic, and carry rings, wands and amulets in addition to their often-magical blades. Many multiclass as wizards. Some even manage to combine bladesinger studies with their divine calling, but it's usually the other way around: after decades of training, a bladesinger decides to devote herself more fully to the service of the gods.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Any ideas or wishes? I'm considering paladins of Bahamut since it was requested, but I'm not convinced I can come up with something good enough. The whole dragon lore is a bit intimidating anyway, as it's very unclear what is FR canon and what is core lore. Some stuff seems to be pretty established on Amia even if I've never found it in FR-specific books. None of the deity books feature Bahamut as a god, though the Powers & Pantheons entry on Tiamat mentiones him as her ancient enemy. Doesn't seem like a god at all, though. And Draconomicon (the FR version) includes Bahamut in the Hall of Fame of legendary dragons, not in the pantheon of dragon gods at all. I'm not really sure why Bahamut has been embraced as a well-known god in Amia when sources of him are scarce and obscure.
The one idea I had about Paladins of Bahamut is that they'd often choose a dragon patron to honor and serve. Sometimes a live one, but often also a famous dead dragon who is treated like a patron saint, a mortal representative of Bahamut and his ideals, beatified in death. In relation to Amia, this might mean a small circle of Imperator devotees, or a Brotherhood of Justice, perhaps protecting the dragon's remains or a relic, and doing good deeds in his name. It would add some twist to the usual "I serve that LG guy in heaven." This would mean making up some new invisible NPCs onto an island as small as Amia, though. Perhaps it could just be an option for future PCs, and I would instead give examples of notable dragons on the mainland. I just don't know any. Feedback?
I still want to cover Sune, but I can't find an angle interesting enough. "These guys are Lawful Good like other paladins, but they dress nice and like paintings."
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Aug 22 2012, 14:16 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Oh yeah, I forgot that book and sheet existed! It should come in handy, though it doesn't seem to mention anything about Bahamut either. I can't really avoid the conclusion Bahamut isn't really a god worshiped by anyone in the Realms. That idea must come from the core 3e Draconomicon, which sadly has been embraced by Amians. The idea of butchering Realmslore is icky, but it's been done for years anyway so I guess working with it is inevitable. Actually, the picture of Bahamut becoming a popular dragon "deity" is already becoming clearer! Are there any sources about him, other than the 3e core Draconomicon?
I think it would do justice to both FR lore and the popularity of Bahamut as a god to say that as the true dragon pantheon diminished in influence and was barely worshiped by the dragons themselves, humanoids found the exotic idea of divine dragons in the figures of Tiamat and Bahamut - dragon archetypes, timeless beings of the planes, foreign gods, or just very old and unique dragons? Scholars can't find an answer, but with Tiamat's grip tightening on Unther and the eastern regions of Faerûn, and with the problems caused by the Cult of the Dragons and the Dracorage, people have rediscovered the ancient enemy of Tiamat. Bahamut, the Platinum Dragon, becomes a symbol of all that is good about dragonkind, a force to oppose the schemes of Tiamat and cleanse the reputation of dragons after the mindless slaughter of the Dracorage. He's primarily worshiped by humans and humanoid dragon-kin, though some metallic dragons also revere him as the archetype of metallic dragon virtues. The church of Bahamut is thus mostly a human phenomenon and has only recently surged in popularity, though it is based on a legend as old as dragons themselves: the Book of the World speaks of the Renegade (bahmat, in Thorass) repeating the actions of the Asgorath the World Shaper (perhaps Tiamat herself?) and creating dragons the color of metal, after Asgorath had created the reds. (But as Draconomicon suggests, The Book of the World might in fact be of humanoid origin and not a dragon myth at all.)
This is just a rough sketch of the developement that makes Bahamut the primary dragon god (though not so much a god for dragons) after the real dragon pantheon has been all but forgotten. Does this seem plausible to the dragonlore experts?
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Not a dragonlore expert, but I have been aware of Bahamut's questionable place in Amia's pantheon and your conclusion is the one I came to as to why Bahamut worship is popular. And why he only has a shrine in Kohlingen, not a church, and a shrine whose bill was essentially footed by a PC.
Bahamut is in FR in two aspects, along with Tiamat. Or Was.
They both came to FR via the Untheric pantheon as the god-king incarnations Tiamat and Marduk. Tiamat's 3 headed form was slain by Gilgeam, and split into three dragons, green, black, red. Tchazzar, the red, ate the other two, established dominance, killed Gilgeam and then emerged into a new 5 headed form.
Marduk came in as well, and he died during the first (I believe) fight with Gilgeam and Tiamat, saving Gilgeam.
When these aspects died, both were reduced to the level of paragon/quasideity, etc.
Then there's this paraphrased blurb from "Dragons of Faerun"
Quote:
He was forced to stay like this, with not enough followers to worship him as a god, living in the Upper planes or wandering the Material plane, doing whatever good he could until 1359 DR, when Gareth Dragonsbane and his party returned from the Abyss after destroying the Wand of Orcus. They brought with them the Tree-Gem which Bahamut gave back to the party as a sign of his covenant to protect Damara from Orcus and other demons. It also brought renewed interest in the worship of Bahamut as a god and mortals began flocking to his faith once more, at last restoring his deific status as a lesser deity once again.
There's quite a bit to show that both Tiamat and Bahamut are gods in Faerun thta could be worshipped. Hell, 1734 in the Grand History has a large event based on them.
Paraphrased:
Quote:
In 1374, lightning strikes and meteor showers pounded Faerûn, Bahamut and Tiamat instructed their respective followers to seek out such sites as they would each contain some form of dragon egg. Unfortunately for Bahamut, Tiamat's followers have been much more effective in retrieving the eggs than his followers have. The Dragonfall War is set to begin anew very soon and Tiamat seems to have the upper hand. Only time will tell what happens.
So both are actually deities, and have ties in the Forgotten Realsm to both humans and dragons via their actions. Therefore it's completely reasonable that people worship them. Though, of course, the majority of their worshippers both are dragons.
Unpopular opinion: In 4th Realmslore they make Bahamut even more important because when Tyr dies, Bahamut is the one that recieives the portfolio of Justice, cementing him as one of the new Core FR gods. Not canon for us, of course, but it does show that Wizards considers him part of the FR pantheon, and important enough to shove into the fore, as well.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
That's very useful and enlightening, thanks! I still believe TSR/WotC seem to be a little undecided on them and change the story. I mean, it's definetely true that they aren't part of the traditional dragon pantheon. I wonder at which point, historically, they became gods for the dragons and not just mysterious, respected dragon archetypes. (It's pretty easy to say that OOC, the change was somewhere between 2e and 3e, but both no doubt have historical IC relevance.)
There's also one more problem: the Untheric god aspects can't be the only and original manifestation of the pair, if even dragons believe them to have existed as long as dragons have. For many old dragons, Unther's birth is recent history and well predates the age when dragons were at the height of their power. Could there be a merging of myths and divine beings, or multiple resurgences of the same entities?
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
FR wiki's sources on their creation appear to come from a mix of books. HOWEVER: The events referenced in their creation are also referenced in future times by Grand History of the Realms and Dragons of Faerun so I'd say you got a better than average shot of it being the correct interpretation.
This is Bahamut's stuff, quoted from the FR wiki. It's sorced from thing slike FRCS, PGtF and other Faerunian related sources (apparently: according to the wiki) so I don't see a reason to call it not true. Admittedly I'm not able to grab thos ebooks and look but as I said, future events to refer to these ones.
Quote:
The fact is that Bahamut was a god. He came into existence as a lesser deity when the dragons first came to Faerûn, along with the rest of the draconic pantheon. Once dragons as a race had established themselves by about -30000 DR, the draconic gods encouraged their followers to battle each other in their divine names. This lasted for about six millenia until various draconic philosophers decided that all of the fighting was wasteful and that gods who encourage such behavior were not worthy of the religious fervor that they had been given since their conception (This is the event that started the draconic apathy towards their gods which has lasted, for the most part, to this day). That is, all except the followers of Bahamut and Tiamat. Their followers continued fighting in what is known as the Dragonfall War which continues unabated in the present day. The war waxed and waned in intensity, with the last era of intense fighting occurring between -2087 and -1071 DR.
It was during this time that the Untheric empire began and with it, their pantheon became prominent. Tiamat was worshiped by a cult of Untheric humans, forced underground because of her status as nemesis of the gods, especially Gilgeam, whilst Bahamut had an aspect in the form of Marduk who was more widely worshiped. A second front in the Dragonfall war had opened between the humans and the two gods fought each other personally, with neither being able to gain the upper hand. In 1071 the Untheric pantheon went to war with the Orc pantheon and, in a fight known as the Battle of the Gods, while Gilgeam fought with Ilneval, Tiamat saw her chance to strike, but before she could kill the God-king, Marduk struck a wild, lethal blow at Tiamat, saving Gilgeam's life at the expense of his own.
It has this, far wordier, to say about Tiamat, again sourced form the same places.
Quote:
Tiamat was one of the children of Io and therefore a member of the draconic pantheon. Her worship began after the Tearfall which coincided with the arrival of dragons on Toril. Around 1,000 years later, individual dragons and dragon clans ruled great swathes of territory on Toril and this rulership was uncontested for a further 6,000 years. During this Time of Dragons, all draconic creatures were devout in their belief of the supremacy of one particular member of the draconic pantheon over all others. These holy wars were a fact of life for dragon-kind during the Time of Dragons and dragons died in huge numbers. Eventually, seeing the destruction that they had wrought on their own species in the name of deities who were supposed to be protecting them, most dragons abandoned the worship of their gods.
However, the hatred that had developed between Tiamat, Bahamut and their followers was so intense that they refused to stop fighting. The Dragonfall War as it came to be known, allowed giants to conquer some dragon territories and the ensuing conflicts also led to the rise of humanoid civilisations, especially those of the elves, whose mages created the Dracorage mythal which periodically forced all dragons to go violently insane. This marked the end of the Time of Dragons and the humaoids never allowed dragons to regain as much power as they once held.
In -2087 DR the Untheric pantheon was brought to Toril when the Imaskari planar barrier fell. Among them, a lesser 3-headed version of Tiamat and a god named Marduk who was an aspect of Bahamut. Now that they had humanoid worshipers, the Dragonfall War entered into a new period of intensity and over the next thousand years, the two gods placed more and more of their divine essence into their lesser aspects. Tiamat also worked against the other Untheric gods, with the result of the church of Enlil naming her the "Nemesis of the Gods" and blaming her for every problem the nation encountered.
Then, in -1071 DR, during the Orcgate Wars, Tiamat spied an opportunity to slay Gilgeam while he was completely occupied battling Ilneval. However, Marduk intercepted her and in the ensuing fracas, they killed each other. All of that divine power that had been focused in those mortal forms was lost. Tiamat was reduced from greater deity to the status of an archfiend, her last few followers in Unther not enough even to allow her to remain as a lesser deity.
This state of affairs lasted until 1346 DR when some Untherite cultists managed to summon another aspect of Tiamat to Toril. This aspect, known as the Dark Lady, formented rebellion all over Unther against the church of Gilgeam. Gilgeam was so hated that the membership in her own church swelled. She also took the opportunity to influence the lich Sammaster into tracking down the Dracorage mythal.
During the Time of Troubles, the Dark Lady was transformed back into her three-headed Untheric avatar which was promptly slain by Gilgeam's. Her divine essence though was somehow divided into three and came to inhabit Tchazzar, Gestaniius and Skuthosiin, three powerful chromatic dragons. Tchazzar devoured the other two, combining the three essences and ushering in the reappearance of Tiamat's more powerful five-headed form, which she used to kill Gilgeam and therefore cause Ao to dissolve the Untheric pantheon completely. The Cult of Tiamat, by Wayne Reynolds
Re-taking a place as a lesser deity of the draconic pantheon in the wake of the Time of Troubles, Tiamat was able to manifest avatars once more but not a year had passed until one of them was destroyed by King Gareth Dragonsbane who had been tasked by Bahamut to destroy the Wand of Orcus in her heartsblood. Having done so, the king of Damara also brought the worship of Bahamut back to his people, elevating Bahamut to the status of lesser deity of the Faerûnian pantheon and re-kindling the Dragonfall War once more.
Tiamat joined the Faerûnian pantheon too in 1371 DR after gaining the worship of a cult in Luthcheq. She projected her wishes through the transformed primordial Entropy and in this guise, expanded her base of humanoid worshipers. She also sent many of her draconic servants to Vaasa to make trouble for the Church of Bahamut in Damara.
A race was on between her and Bahamut to gather worshipers to increase their powers before the Dragonfall War was truly joined once more. Tiamat started with the upper hand in this endeavour, being a deity of two pantheons and her nefarious plans were starting to come to fruition.
In 1373 DR Sammaster had managed to alter the Dracorage mythal to cause permanent insanity in all dragons, unless they allowed themselves to become dracoliches. In one of the worst dracorages ever seen on Toril, Tiamat resurrected Tchazzar, Gestaniius and Skuthosiin to act as emissaries which she would use to solidify and expand her power base in Chessenta, Mulhorand, Threskel and Unther.
Sammaster and the Dracorage mythal were destroyed by adventurers and dragonkind all over Toril soon realised that the Time of Dragons could once more be a reality. This coincided with a great storm, after which thousands of dragon-like eggs were discovered. Tiamat instructed her followers to find and collect as many of these eggs as they could. They obeyed and more than half of the total number of eggs were brought to Unthalass where they began to hatch.
Tiamat spent her new forces mostly in her efforts to conquer the east but that task proved more difficult than she envisioned. Only Tchazzar met with success, cementing his rule in Chessenta while Unther was conquered by Mulhorand. Her tentative ally Alasklerbanbastos also ruled Threskel and allowed Tiamat's church to establish a stronghold there.
Her losses outweighed her gains however: Entropy ceased being a simple vessel for communication and spells, taking away her power base in Luthcheq. Tchazzar managed to conquer Threskel for himself but this just drew him into a war with the Abeiran nation of Tymanther where he was killed.
With her most powerful servant dead, her forces beginning to crumble and Bahamut's power increasing after he replaced Tyr as the god of justice, Tiamat decided to pledge herself to serve Bane and the Dragonfall War stalled, possibly never really to be rekindled.
Again you see the bits about the Dragonfall wars, waning around the Unther Empire's rise, the introduction of their humanoidish aspects and the 3 headed aspect, their involvement with gilgeam, the death of their Unther aspects reducing them to Archfiend/Celestial Paragon, later events with a cult and Gareht Dragonsbane restoring them to godhood (and showing that humans/humanodis, along with dragons, seem to care about them to the point of worship), etc.
Doesn't really help you in a Paladin writeup I guess but it does show (imo) that the are gods in their own right in the Forgotten Realms and of any of the Draconic Pantheon are likely the most known outside the minds of dragons.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
That's quite substantial. And yeah, I'm pretty sure it helps. It certainly establishes what they're about, even if I was hoping they'd be profiled a bit more as "dragon gods for the non-dragon" so one could play more on that aspect. Oh well, this all makes quite a bit of sense.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
The introduction is a bit long, but I feel it's useful as there's no single source of canon Bahamut lore. It has to be pieced together from several conflicting sources, as Tormak's quotes above show. (Even those write-ups don't seem to consider all the available lore.) This is supposed to serve as a quick reference for anyone into Bahamut to see that there's more to his presence in the Realms than the generic Draconomicon entry.
Also, I've never been personally involved with Kohlingen or the Wyrmshadow Prophecy, so I'm not sure if my conclusions about their effects are believable. Is Imperator the kind of public figure that would be available for reverence, for example, or was his resurrection more of a secret, private matter? Tormak's feedback is very welcome, as I'm treading on foreign ground here.
Paladins of Bahamut wrote:
Bahamut the Platinum Dragon is a mysterious figure in the history of Toril. He is said to have existed since the first appearance of dragons, a timeless archetype of goodly dragon virtues. Some believe him to be a god in his own right, perhaps the father of metallic dragons. Others think he is a unique mortal who has gained godlike powers, or that he is an aspect of another deity. Many believe the dragon god of justice, Xymor, is actually Bahamut. Though rarely considered part of the traditional draconic pantheon, the name of Bahamut has always been respected and revered by many goodly dragons. When most dragons grew tired of religious conflict and turned away from their gods, some fanatics grouped under the banners of Bahamut and Tiamat to continue their holy war.
Bahamut's second appearance was as the human god Marduk of Unther, in which aspect he sacrificed himself to save the God-King Gilgeam from Tiamat's attack. His divine essence dispersed, Bahamut roamed Toril and the planes as a mortal dragon, nearly forgotten for two millenia. When king Gareth Dragonsbane of Damara defeated an avatar of Tiamat with Bahamut's help, the king established the Platinum Dragon's worship in Damara which restored his divine status. With Tiamat's grip tightening on eastern Faerûn, the Rage of Dragons causing havoc across the realms, and the schemes of the Cult of the Dragon, recent years have seen a resurgence of Bahamut worship.
As a paragon of metallic dragon virtues, Bahamut is a fitting patron for paladins. His complete lack of tolerance for evil is softened by his deep compassion for the weak and helpless. His paladins strive to exemplify both traits. Bahamut's dogma teaches that everyone should fight their own battles as best they can. His paladins thus prefer to offer advise, healing or refuge to help people deal with their problems, rather than step in and take all the responsibility. Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and you'll feed him for a lifetime, but teach him right from wrong and he'll feed the poor instead. A paladin of Torm might deal with a village's bandit problem by summoning his brothers-in-arms and storming the bandit camp, but a paladin of Bahamut prefers to train the villagers in self-defence so that they'll rebuff future threats, too. Patience is a virtue human paladins of Bahamut work hard to cultivate. In seeking to emulate their draconic mentors, short-lived humans struggle to find the long-term perspective that comes naturally to dragons. Many good works are subtle and their effects delayed; short-sighted haste and drastic action to change things for the better often only results in a backlash. If immediate action is to be taken, it must be because it's necessary – not just because the paladin was impatient.
Dragons in the court of the golden King of Justice swear an oath to follow what is called the Ptarian Code of Honor. In aspiring to embody dragon ideals, many humanoid paladins of Bahamut have adopted this code as part of their personal oaths. It comprises hundreds of lines, but the central precepts are the following:
Justice and Good above all. Honor and Fealty to the King. Honor and Respect to Righteous Innocence. Honor and Duty to the Balancer, to Her Mercy, and to the Justicemaker. Honor and Protection to the Lesser Races. Honor and Correction to the Enemies of Justice and Good. Honor and Forbearance for oneself.
Of particular interest is how evil should be treated: correction and conversion to the good path is always preferred to annihilation. There's no justice without mercy. Even the servants of Tiamat, whom all followers of Bahamut are sworn to oppose and fight, can be brought to the light. The line concerning fealty to the King is somewhat controversial, as it originally refers to His Resplendence, King of Justice, a ruler and judge among gold dragons. The idea that humans should owe fealty to a dragon king is seen by some as treachery. Many faithful of Bahamut do indeed hold the political view that human society stands to learn much from dragons and should one day adopt a dragon ruler in the spirit of fruitful cooperation. It's a notion that might get them persecuted, so most avoid spreading their radical thoughts prematurely.
The carnage of the Dracorage incident soiled the name of dragons. On the island of Amia, the Dark Flight sowed fear into the hearts of many, but it also created heroes and sparked interest in the Platinum Dragon. The faithful of Bahamut are determined to cleanse the name of dragonkind and represent all that is good about the scaly ancients. They do this not only by embracing and emulating dragon ideals, fighting cruel chromatics and helping to fix the damage caused by the Rage, but also by promoting noble dragons. In addition to their fealty to Bahamut himself, many paladins choose a mortal dragon as a revered patron. Often these are dead heroes who've achieved a beatified, saintly state in the eyes of posteriority. The silver Justice of Amia has a small circle of devotees who make regular pilgrimage to his remains. Imperator, now the spirit guardian of Kohlingen, is another figure worthy of reverence. Sometimes a paladin chooses to serve a live dragon like others serve human lords, but it's not too common to find metallic dragons interested in having their own feudal army. Others serve the King of Justice, if only in name. Paladins typically choose as their patron a dragon significant in the history of their home region or family, and spread his or her name wherever they go.
The worship of Bahamut is still uncommon among humanoids, and dragons have a more distant relationship to their gods. The greatest center of worship is in Damara, where most of his paladins hail from. There are small congregations scattered around the realms, often concentrated around the site of a draconic deed of heroism or the lair of a metallic dragon interested in converting lesser races. Word has spread about the destruction of the Dark Flight on Amia, and many have travelled to Kohlingen to pay their respects to the heroes of the war. The city has become an important holy site, but even there a temple is yet to be built – the faith is marginal compared to human gods of righteousness. In addition, humanoids with metallic dragon blood are likely to turn to Bahamut all around Toril. Many silver and gold dragon disciples have become paladins, even though pursuing the two paths simultaneously demands exceptional dedication and endurance. The paths are intertwined: one pursues the dragon blood, and the other embraces the dragon soul.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Is Imperator the kind of public figure that would be available for reverence, for example, or was his resurrection more of a secret, private matter
Very public and well known. As for 'available for reverence', maybe on special permission, but he doesn't go traipsing around for obvious reasons. He is pretty plainly obvious inside the keep though.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Tormak, if you see something about this that you think might need to be amended or clarified or whatever for Amia specific purposes, let me know. I'll be taking it for the DM edit soon and both Iron and I know your lore in this area is astute.
Thank you so much Iron and Tormack. This was perfect and wonderfully helpful! I had been able to find a mention of a section of the code once before, the section of dealing compassion before destruction as it were. But the resst is wonderful, and as you said... harder to find.
The section of "Honor and Duty to the Balancer, to Her Mercy, and to the Justicemaker" struck me at first to mean other draconic deities such as Tamara and Lendys respectively. Tamara, whos actual titles are Her Benificence and Her Mercy, is a benevolent healer who gives mercy and sometimes the mercy of death to those who need it most, similar in (some) ways to Salandra. Lendys being the Balancer, Scale of Justice, and Weigher of Lives, had struck me to to mean both the role of Balancer and Justicemaker...so that was very insightful about the gold called the Justicemaker.
I understand it isn't the official version yet, but it looks awesome.
Again, Thanks You very Much!
_________________ Lady Ravanna Iheludrim, Sun Elf Sorceress, Former Councillor of Myth Winya Ravana Miss ~A. F.~ (Potion Brewer Extraordinaire) Veruca Thornhill, Paladin of the Lord of the North Wind [Retired]
The Justicemaker refers to Xymor. Who, in later sources, is suggested to be Bahamut's alias, but who is the son of Lendys and Tamara and thus a young god (as opposed to the myths of Bahamut existing from the beginning of dragons). It's a confused mythology, and not one I think we should clarify too much.
The Ptarian Code is not primarly a Bahamutan code or a paladin code, hence the reference. As the FR Draconomicon explains it, that line is indeed a reference to the three gods but it's mostly kept there out of tradition since the dragons themselves have (for the most part) stopped worshiping their gods. (Though this has changed somewhat recently; even so, they've become more interested in non-dragon deities rather than their own old gods.)
The code excerpt is from the FR Draconomicon, page 44. I didn't make it up myself.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Oh yes, I knew the code existed. Never thought it was made up, except, save by the lore-makers who wrote the Draconomicon itself
_________________ Lady Ravanna Iheludrim, Sun Elf Sorceress, Former Councillor of Myth Winya Ravana Miss ~A. F.~ (Potion Brewer Extraordinaire) Veruca Thornhill, Paladin of the Lord of the North Wind [Retired]
Tormak, if you see something about this that you think might need to be amended or clarified or whatever for Amia specific purposes, let me know. I'll be taking it for the DM edit soon and both Iron and I know your lore in this area is astute.
Nah, it all looks good.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Groan. I was hoping people would forget Kelemvor. I'm not sure I can exactly bring him to life. And there's already a bunch of Kelemvor enthusiasts with their own interpretations running around. I worry I'd have to dance around someone else's opinions and not find anything new and interesting to say. Respect the dead and smite the undead. What else is there to say?
I can think about it, I suppose. And yeah, dwarves and halflings are yet to be covered. It was easy to identify the elven and gnomish themes and tie them in with paladinhood. Not such much with dwarves, who're already pretty stereotypical.
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On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
I'd be interested in reading others' take on the Red Knight. I find the idea of paladins of LN gods, and Red Knight in particular, to be kind of fascinating. The dichotomy between the Red Knight's dogma, which really has nothing at all to say about good or evil, and the hard-edged crusading morality that society expects from paladins... that's good stuff, IMHO.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
I for one would be most interrested in the paladin of Milil. When I made Robert I decided between the paladin of Siamorphe and Milil, and I would have imagined the second as a lot of fun.
I for one would be most interrested in the paladin of Milil. When I made Robert I decided between the paladin of Siamorphe and Milil, and I would have imagined the second as a lot of fun.
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