AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Xaviera wrote:

Honeydew Snugglepoof wrote:

Hence soloing is sometimes your only choice - because of that it should not become impossible, as that will just create frustration. -> Perhaps forced respawn only for characters above level 25? (imo, will not make leveling harder then and the real gold influx comes 25+. Once you hit 25 finding a group is much easier as well.)

I don't see why. If you take a risk and die, that was your choice. If you go somewhere dangerous without sufficient protection (buffs, summons, party), that was your choice. I hardly ever do those things, but in the last month I've done them with both two of my PCs (30th & 8th) and died both times. My stupidity, I pay the price. If you want to gain xp or gold without risk, stick to easy monsters or the job system.

Death should have consequences.

+1 I absolutely agree with this.

Thanks to DM team making this, all the times I have seen people waiting in the entry room to get raise, finaly a solution. If you die because of glitch, too bad. Deal with it and move on with your life. It is so easy to earn the lost amount of gold back anyway!

Also lovely Goddess made a good suggestion. But then there is the fact that some players will go to the death places and send tells from there to arrange a raise. (Possibly.)

Naivatkal wrote:

TheGoddessOfAmazing© wrote:

I am in 100% support of disabling rezzing in entry on one condition - I would like to see the option to return to the spot where I died, dead. If I want to wait several hours for someone to find me dead, I'd like the option to do so. Even servers with much harsher death penalties, such as Ravenloft, have systems in place to accommodate this.

That's a nifty idea, and it would actually allow your party to fight back to recover your body as well after a reset/crash. Which I think would enrich RP all around.

You got it!

at least this isn't like Ultima Online when you died anyone could loot your stuff and you'd be shit out of luck, or like Everquest 1 where you'd have to run to the dungeon you just wiped at to recover your gear, often doing what is call a corpse run....running there, looting, then dieing, in the process pulling your corpse just slightly away from the boss mob so you actually can loot it safely eventually.

TYP wrote:

My question, posed to a developer, is: What is the purpose of the respawn penalty? If the purpose is to deter a set of behaviors - in this case, 'chuggalot' - then my next question is: Why? Defenders of the change have argued that it's a minor penalty, so why try to dodge it? If it's such a minor penalty though, why all the consternation if someone dodges it? Why does it anger a player if another player doesn't pay the two coins to the ferryman?

This is settled law, so I'm asking hoping the discussion will inform future considerations. When I think of the top ten things that ruin my RP, someone cheating the death penalty doesn't even come to mind - I honestly can't care less because we all end up at 30, one way or another. I wish the time spent discussing and arguing about raises in the entryway, and the time spent enforcing it and then writing and implementing this script, were spent on things that actually improved RP. I wish that time was spent encouraging the positive things going on - giving ad hoc events to people who RP while hunting, running events - than were spent trying to squash the few people who break the rules.

Let the morons who break the rules break the rules. This is a PvP voluntary server, so what's the worst thing they can do to me? Kill monsters faster than me? I'd rather have DM's hunting for people to reward with fun things than hunting for rule breakers. I can't imagine DM's wouldn't rather be doing that too.

First and foremost: The Dev's are responsible for the coding and the scripting that makes what we (the DM's) feel is appropriate happen. At least in the short description of the long job is concerned (as there is much more to it than that).

Now, you cite the preference of having DM's running ad hoc events and spending more time doing things that benefit the server as opposed to worrying about people switching servers for free rez's or the such. Well, this may be news to you, but it's extremely difficult for anyone other than a DM to prove that someone has switched servers for a rez (and it's not exactly easy for us either, mind you). Meaning, that if someone sends a comment to the DM's that they think someone has switched servers for a rez, then we (the DM's) have to take time out of our availability to the server to hunt down whether or not the accused person actually did switch servers or not. Meaning that the implementation of this rule actually frees us up for more time to run random one-off events and otherwise be available to the playerbase.

Basically, the less loopholes that are available for people to exploit, the less time we (the DM's) have to spend chasing down possible offenders. Which means more time for us to spend having interactive fun with the server.

Arguing the concept that we all get to 30 eventually so why bother is much like arguing that we all die eventually, so why live life?

I understand your frustration at the situation, but please bear with us as we actually do know a bit about what we're doing and don't make these changes willy-nilly.

TYP wrote:

Dead wrote:

The thing is that they may be relieved to ban them for swapping servers, but on the other hand, people who are ready to break the rules by swapping the server, will break the rules by doing something else and ruin the experience of other people.

How does something you don't know about ruin your experience in the least?

How do you mean I don't know? I was saying that if they are ready to break one rule, they may aswell break them all. For instance PvP rules or metagaming information.

Murex wrote:

..so just don't hunt right before reset if you want to play it smart and avoid risk.

This is metagaming. Your character does not know that the server is about to reset.

Dead wrote:

Murex wrote:

..so just don't hunt right before reset if you want to play it smart and avoid risk.

This is metagaming. Your character does not know that the server is about to reset.

Nice try, but no it's not. Metagaming is using OOC knowledge to your advantage IC that your character would have no way of knowing. In addition, the DMs have stated that it would be a good idea to do this. Besides, how do you explain that they are in a totally different area suddenly after reset? Did they black out or something?

It's not hard to grasp, you simply wait. Or, instead, fabricate a reason to go to town. Not hard at all.

Dead wrote:

TYP wrote:

Dead wrote:

The thing is that they may be relieved to ban them for swapping servers, but on the other hand, people who are ready to break the rules by swapping the server, will break the rules by doing something else and ruin the experience of other people.

How does something you don't know about ruin your experience in the least?

How do you mean I don't know? I was saying that if they are ready to break one rule, they may aswell break them all. For instance PvP rules or metagaming information.

Murex wrote:

..so just don't hunt right before reset if you want to play it smart and avoid risk.

This is metagaming. Your character does not know that the server is about to reset.

Curious. What is it your character would be metagaming exactly? In my mind there is nothing wrong with it, your character deciding they don't want to hunt for whatever reason because OOCly there's the reset coming up. (Which also brings up an odd point, when you are on your way to a party who is hunting and suddenly they all die, wouldn't it be metagaming to -not- carry on your way toward them even though you were on your way there regardless of whether they died or not, but no, usually it's treated as metagaming to turn up when they've all died as though you were not on your way there at all, heard it done, seen it done, experienced it for myself way back when.)

Yeah, what Naiv said.

Everything OOC that directly affects IC in the terms of making a decision is metagaming.

Well lets assume what you say is right, whether it is or not, I imagine it would be the exception to the rule, because like Naiv said, the DM's suggested it themselves.

Dead wrote:

Everything OOC that directly affects IC in the terms of making a decision is metagaming.

I don't quite agree there. Using IC info you learned about through OOC means to affect IC decision is metagaming. OOC stuff like resets really doesn't factor into this. Unless you want to say that DMs or players that delay events or some long meetings due to incoming reset are also metagaming? It's just common sense.

It is sort of metagaming yes in theory, which does not mean that such is bad. When it comes to starting an event or such metagaming the reset is good because you are attempting to prevent the RP from breaking. When it comes to refusing to hunt before the reset it is bad becouse you are trying to avoid the cosequence of your actions = respawning in case of death.

Dead wrote:

It is sort of metagaming yes in theory, which does not mean that such is bad. When it comes to starting an event or such metagaming the reset is good because you are attempting to prevent the RP from breaking. When it comes to refusing to hunt before the reset it is bad becouse you are trying to avoid the cosequence of your actions = respawning in case of death.

Okay, now I'm pretty sure you are trolling because there is no possible way you can be actually trying to use that as an argument.

Because, seriously, you are wrong. Metagaming is sending tells to another player to raise you. How is not dying metagaming? Your argument is weak and invalid, and a poor attempt at continuing to claim that this was a flawed change to implement. If you were solo hunting, then reset or not you would have had to respawn. If you are hunting in a group, then waiting is done so that you can be raised due to an entirely OOC limitation enforced upon the world of Amia. Damn, honestly.

Besides, as I said DMs have already stated it would be smart to wait until after reset to hunt. Now, if you want to tell them they are wrong, go right ahead.

Lost in Translation(s).

I actually love being told I'm wrong, and I welcome that kind of feedback.

What I think he's trying to say is that you're altering what you would be doing ICly from an OOC occurrence, because you as a player know that you wouldn't be able to be raised (And would be forced to eat a respawn), because the reset would occur before the Raise Dead Cooldown would finish. In a sense, it -is- using OOC knowledge to alter and affect your IC actions, but it's hardly anything getting bent out of shape about. I mean, it's something that we told you guys to avoid on an OOC level, so you guys wouldn't end up getting screwed over-- It's something we're entirely aware of.

So you're both right, in a sense.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

I actually love being told I'm wrong, and I welcome that kind of feedback.

What I think he's trying to say is that you're altering what you would be doing ICly from an OOC occurrence, because you as a player know that you wouldn't be able to be raised (And would be forced to eat a respawn), because the reset would occur before the Raise Dead Cooldown would finish. In a sense, it -is- using OOC knowledge to alter and affect your IC actions, but it's hardly anything getting bent out of shape about. I mean, it's something that we told you guys to avoid on an OOC level, so you guys wouldn't end up getting screwed over-- It's something we're entirely aware of.

So you're both right, in a sense.

Yes, but cases of such "metagaming" happen all the time, and why would delaying hunting have different treatment then delaying non-hostile RP? Just because of money/exp loss in case of death? Can't non-hostile RP also have far reaching consequences for toon's future too - even bigger then death from hunting?
I hate such double standards.

Does raising in the entry even affect non-hostile Rp? I'm not quite sure what you're asking.

I'm commenting on the Dead's statement that delaying the non-hostile RP due to incoming reset is OK, but delaying hunting due to incoming reset is bad metagaming. Since both things are RP to me, and can have negative consequences on the toon, I see no use for double standard.

Since it's been a no no to raise people in the starting areas for a while now.. how does this change REALLY affect you? (Other than the fact that DMs don't have to waste time on it now)

If you died becuase of something wonky, ask a DM nicely, rather than rely on the good nature of players being willing to overlook the no raising thing on "moral" grounds?

I approve of this change :mrgreen:

Gravemaskin wrote:

I approve of this change :mrgreen:

Approval or not, we have no say :twisted:

Mr. Hackums wrote:

What I think he's trying to say is that you're altering what you would be doing ICly from an OOC occurrence, because you as a player know that you wouldn't be able to be raised (And would be forced to eat a respawn), because the reset would occur before the Raise Dead Cooldown would finish. In a sense, it -is- using OOC knowledge to alter and affect your IC actions, but it's hardly anything getting bent out of shape about.

That is exactly what I am talking about. I am not using it as an argument to have this change changed, I am just pointing out that in theory such is metagaming aswell.

@Naivatkal I already stated my reasons to believe that this is not as great solution as it may sound. For them arguments you need to scroll up.

@Remal Only becouse server reset is mandatory does not mean that it is good. That goes for all its side effects such as delay in RP becouse of it, refusing to hunt to avoid the cosequences and so on. There is no double standards. I do it, you do it, everyone do it, but it does not mean it is good. When it comes to hunting, you guys are welcome to do whatever you please. But I know that the death penalty and server reset will never affect my character's decision whether to hunt or not.

Glim wrote:

fairdady wrote:

Possibility for Staff consideration I assume NWN1 can do this with scripting if you wish it but others may cry immersion breaking. NWN2 is such a POS when I was playing on a server, before I nearly threw the game in the trash, they had to perform hourly reboots. To help warn the players they'd have a countdown of the final couple minutes a gong-ish sound wound chime and a cursor spell like icon whatever the hell you call it would surround each character briefly like the cursor that surrounds your character when you get dinged for a dream coin but these were red or yellow and larger so you'd notice them much easier. They'd cycle at the top of each minute for the last 2 or 3 minutes before the reboot and once at the 5 second mark. If you couldn't hear and see that and adjust your play and RP accordingly, I'm sorry for ya.

The problem with any visual effect unfortunately is (especially for higher level parties) all the other visual spell effects that are blasting around your characters and the battlefield. It would be easy for "just another VFX" to get lost in the maelstrom.

Well, we could actually add a sound saying "Server reset in 1 minute" in an ominous voice and play that to every character... Now that I think of it "So long, sucker! Hihihihi." would be a nice one on death. Needs a hak update, of course.

I wish we didn't need to have server resets!

Dev Disco wrote:

Well, we could actually add a sound saying "Server reset in 1 minute" in an ominous voice and play that to every character... Now that I think of it "So long, sucker! Hihihihi." would be a nice one on death. Needs a hak update, of course.

-1

I vote for no warnings, though I will hate it myself as well. Yet I deal with it.

if you hunt before a reset, you should reap the rewards, and the penalties...it's a choice you make.

Needled247 wrote:

I wish we didn't need to have server resets!

Well I know at least one server running Linux that never seems to reset. But Amia runs on Windoze.

We actually reset every 4 hours because we always did so... not sure if it's even needed atm.

Upping the timer to 12 or even 24 hours would be a pretty big quality of play improvement. None of the other servers I've played on used a reset system, but I imagine it does do wonders for stability and lag due to memory leaks, but I'm not sure every four hours is strictly necessary.

Arelith and Nordock (Richterm's) ran on as-needed resets. It was HELL.

But resources... T.T People run straight for certain ones as soon as a reset has been, it is bad enough as it is, imagine having to wait 12 hours to gather resources from a merchant to find that someone else has beaten you there, then you have to wait another 12 hours for a chance to not get them again.

Anubis wrote:

But resources... T.T People run straight for certain ones as soon as a reset has been, it is bad enough as it is, imagine having to wait 12 hours to gather resources from a merchant to find that someone else has beaten you there, then you have to wait another 12 hours for a chance to not get them again.

This is a big reason I can think of as to why the resets are good. However, one reason less resets would be good is that it would limit boss hunting. 24 hours resets would mean you can only hunt bosses once every RL day, which would be nifty.

However, to fix the Job System issues: Can we script it so after so long the resources are replenished? We could do the same with the Job System merchants to make it as if they are actually getting things sold to them, or harvested/made themselves, by NPCs. Would likely be good for immersion. If there was a way to make the Job System merchant restocking random as well (though I would definitely want to see us make it so that certain items won't restock once there are x number at the merchant, since I know some things are harder to find), that would make it even better.

Just a thought to get it out there. Maybe I'll do an IA if it's feasible (which is the reason I'm mentioning this here, hint hint Selmak ;p).

An idea that was expressed to me: Maybe the merchants could have a set amount for each individual player (Player, not character much like the resources from plc's, where everyone has a chance to gather). For example, the metal merchant has 12 available Admantine metals, and each player can buy those twelve without worrying about the last person to purchase having taken them all already. Just a thought.

TheGoddessOfAmazing© wrote:

I am in 100% support of disabling rezzing in entry on one condition - I would like to see the option to return to the spot where I died, dead. If I want to wait several hours for someone to find me dead, I'd like the option to do so. Even servers with much harsher death penalties, such as Ravenloft, have systems in place to accommodate this.

This would be great, but even possible with a clean server after reset?

Naivatkal wrote:

...one reason less resets would be good is that it would limit boss hunting. 24 hours resets would mean you can only hunt bosses once every RL day, which would be nifty.

I'm not exactly opposing what you say, I just want to know why you think this.

I think it may be because less people would be out hunting bosses and would be off RP'ing more instead Or maybe it would help with the economy on Amia, not as many epic items floating about or something. I dunno though maybe Naiv has their own reason(s).

if there are less items out then the boss farmers that will still boss farm will just charge even higher prices for those who can't boss hunt to get them, so i doubt that would improve the economy. it'll make the 1 percent that much richer.

Job system merchants get their stock from players as far as I remember, and players get that stock from either renewable sources in the game, or non-renewable sources like trees or ore nodes (which are regenerated every reset). None of what the merchants sell just appears out of thin air, so far as I know. If you want certain resources, then get someone to gather it for you instead of letting them throw it away at the merchant.

To answer your question, if there was a longer time between resets then the availability of non-renewable resources would probably be increased in proportion, or regenerate by themselves every four hours or something.

Not entirely true. I've been to a merchant straight after reset myself before (Yes guilty) and the merchant has had resources before anyone could have possibly sold any to him, and I doubt they carry over from the last reset, but maybe they do?

ILoveIceCream wrote:

if there are less items out then the boss farmers that will still boss farm will just charge even higher prices for those who can't boss hunt to get them, so i doubt that would improve the economy. it'll make the 1 percent that much richer.

Flawed logic. Higher margin per item doesn't mean more profit if you're selling less items in total.

well, if I get 5 epic items I can afford to sell that item 500k or something each...but now I only have 1 of that epic item, it's suddenly a lot more valuable...I can sell it for 5 mil because no one else has it because no one else boss farms like me, if I were a boss farmer that is. I'm just playing devils advocate since I'm not a boss farmer.

Selmak wrote:

Job system merchants get their stock from players as far as I remember, and players get that stock from either renewable sources in the game, or non-renewable sources like trees or ore nodes (which are regenerated every reset). None of what the merchants sell just appears out of thin air, so far as I know. If you want certain resources, then get someone to gather it for you instead of letting them throw it away at the merchant.

Ah-ha! I didn't know that. Freaking neat!

Murex wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

...one reason less resets would be good is that it would limit boss hunting. 24 hours resets would mean you can only hunt bosses once every RL day, which would be nifty.

I'm not exactly opposing what you say, I just want to know why you think this.

It's just because you can only spawn a boss one time per reset is all.

ILoveIceCream wrote:

if there are less items out then the boss farmers that will still boss farm will just charge even higher prices for those who can't boss hunt to get them, so i doubt that would improve the economy. it'll make the 1 percent that much richer.

Honestly, I didn't even think of that, hah.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

ILoveIceCream wrote:

if there are less items out then the boss farmers that will still boss farm will just charge even higher prices for those who can't boss hunt to get them, so i doubt that would improve the economy. it'll make the 1 percent that much richer.

Flawed logic. Higher margin per item doesn't mean more profit if you're selling less items in total.

If those boss farmers would be willing to actually sell those items at all. Considering rarity of items would rise, direct trade of such items would probably become ONLY way to get such items.
This would even further push for solo builds and reduce party boss hunting (and corresponding RP) to non-existant levels.

Anubis wrote:

Not entirely true. I've been to a merchant straight after reset myself before (Yes guilty) and the merchant has had resources before anyone could have possibly sold any to him, and I doubt they carry over from the last reset, but maybe they do?

They do carry over. All stocks are saved to the database before reset and then restored when it comes back up.

So now you know!

Remal wrote:

NinjaClarinet wrote:

ILoveIceCream wrote:

if there are less items out then the boss farmers that will still boss farm will just charge even higher prices for those who can't boss hunt to get them, so i doubt that would improve the economy. it'll make the 1 percent that much richer.

Flawed logic. Higher margin per item doesn't mean more profit if you're selling less items in total.

If those boss farmers would be willing to actually sell those items at all. Considering rarity of items would rise, direct trade of such items would probably become ONLY way to get such items.
This would even further push for solo builds and reduce party boss hunting (and corresponding RP) to non-existant levels.

It is not flawed logic because rarity would increase, as Remal said. I'm suprised how people never factor in all the variables before coming to a conclusion. If you really hate boss-hunters for whatever reason, make a motion to make epic loot easier to get, not harder.

Dev Disco wrote:

We actually reset every 4 hours because we always did so... not sure if it's even needed atm.

Murex wrote:

It is not flawed logic because rarity would increase, as Remal said. I'm suprised how people never factor in all the variables before coming to a conclusion. If you really hate boss-hunters for whatever reason, make a motion to make epic loot easier to get, not harder.

I like my idea better: Make all epic loot so you can't trade it to another player. :3

Naivatkal wrote:

Murex wrote:

It is not flawed logic because rarity would increase, as Remal said. I'm suprised how people never factor in all the variables before coming to a conclusion. If you really hate boss-hunters for whatever reason, make a motion to make epic loot easier to get, not harder.

I like my idea better: Make all epic loot so you can't trade it to another player. :3

Then nobody would boss hunt, and some random level 23 character can get something epic fall into their hands while in a party....a good roll of the dice it all it takes instead of putting in actual effort. Is that fair?

I think that the epic loot is pretty hard to get as it is now considering you have a 1 in 20 chance at getting a drop, and then an even lower chance of having it be useful to your character. Not being able to trade epic loot basically means only a lucky few players will have something useful.

Do you not like other characters having epic loot or what? I think you should provide reasons for you wanting epic loot changed in order to have people support your ideas.

It might be a better idea to do what other games do and have such items bind to a character once they've been equipped. If you don't equip them at all, then you can trade them. If you put them on just once, then they can't be traded.

This means that if you find an item that is better than an epic loot item you're already wearing, you can't just flog the used one to someone else.

Murex wrote:

Then nobody would boss hunt

Prove that would happen. Prove that you are 100% certain that 100% of the population would never, ever hunt bosses.

Murex wrote:

some random level 23 character can get something epic fall into their hands while in a party....a good roll of the dice it all it takes instead of putting in actual effort. Is that fair?

Yes, because the same thing can currently happen. How is this even an argument?

Murex wrote:

Do you not like other characters having epic loot or what? I think you should provide reasons for you wanting epic loot changed in order to have people support your ideas.

When did I say I wanted this implemented? To be honest, I could care less what other people have. They are just shiny things a percentage of people use to flaunt their egos. What I said was meant to scare people. Which clearly it did. If I wanted to have that be changed, I would not talk about it in GD.

Selmak wrote:

It might be a better idea to do what other games do and have such items bind to a character once they've been equipped. If you don't equip them at all, then you can trade them. If you put them on just once, then they can't be traded.

This means that if you find an item that is better than an epic loot item you're already wearing, you can't just flog the used one to someone else.

That doesn't sound like that bad of an idea. Course, it screams WoW in my mind at first, but it's interesting. It would give you the option of using something or getting rid of it. Mistakes could still happen, though, and since NWN is not set up for that there wouldn't be a popup asking confirmation or whatever. Mechanically, it might not make sense, though. Unless it was figured that the ancient items 'locked on' to a part of the person's soul, or something like that.

Well, in Forgotten Realms canon, magic equipment adapts to fit the shape of it's user. Easy enough to say that little tidbit only works once for the super items.

Selmak wrote:

It might be a better idea to do what other games do and have such items bind to a character once they've been equipped. If you don't equip them at all, then you can trade them. If you put them on just once, then they can't be traded.

This means that if you find an item that is better than an epic loot item you're already wearing, you can't just flog the used one to someone else.

Please no. I don't play NWN to play WoW.

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