Why are Dark Moon monks so big on saucery?

And why are monks of the Old Order (according to Mr. Hillsburton) also into saucery?

Don't they understand this makes them terrible monks and/or sorcerers?

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

...Well I don't think there's really a reason. But some parallels can be drawn between the development of sorcery and monk training. Where it's all about taking the "self" and perfecting it through rigorous physical training and... whatever it is sorcerers do to hone their magical talent. It's easier to keep going because once you have a few sorc/monks, as long as you can find recruits you can train them pretty much anywhere with very little baggage. No need for books, weapons, armour, and improvise for training grounds where needed. Great for secretive cults.

Yes, in game terms, sorcerers and monks never really work out. Too much Multiple Attribute Dependency (MAD). I've actually thought of a sorc/monk build that -might- work, but it would be spellswordy and with more fighter levels than monk, probably (I kept meaning to mention it in the build thread but never got around to it). Said build doesn't really work for Dark Moon Disciples on the conceptual level anyway... since the sorcerous powers tend to boil down to "everything a Shadowdancer does". I don't know anything about Old Order monks.

TSR/Wizards (whoever) weren't really the best at coming up with builds or series of builds for the game they designed the rules for though, so yeah.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Oh yeah, I totally get the concept behind monks + sorcery and perfection of the self. You'd just think the faction as a whole would either die out on account of the caliber of their enemies or be so defensively minded to compensate that they never accomplish anything important. Are there any Canon accounts of Dark Moon monks doing anything important?

The Monk of the Old Order thing may be Amia only, I dunno. The guy who sells the monk kits at the crouching lemur says they just loooooove sorcery.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

Like all multiclass combinations, it is a simulation of a particular ideal. That is to say that the RP and lore for a particular combination of classes are not mutually inclusive.

In the case of the monks of the Dark Moon, they venerate Shar, and hence the Shadow Weave. Since a monk alone has no access to the Shadow Weave, but a Sorcerer does, there you go. A monk that both venerates Shar, and uses the Shadow Weave increases Shar's power and influence irregardless of how much the class combination might suck mechanically.

As for other monk orders that dabble in sorcery, the class is used to extend the representation of inner strength and Ki that is often associated with mystical monk powers. Just because it makes for a difficult combination in game terms, does not mean that it will not be an interesting character.

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Thine taste in horrid footwear not withstanding, I did not say that thou were in fact an idiot, I merely implied that such things were self evident.

-Krrja

The Old Order has like zero lore, afaik. Even the NWN base items that refer to the older say things like that. And something about having to pass a test by being beaten on by an ogre without defending yourself.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Just interpret sorcery not in the sense of taking a level of sorceror and screwing up your otherwise good monk build, but of searching for dark means (in the case of the Luna Negros) or old, mystical means (in the case of the Fraternity of Fogies) of developing spell-like abilities. I am a purebuild monk, but after ritually scarring my genitals with Shar's symbol, I can cast Bear's Endurance as a spell-like ability X times a day.

Anyone know any good stories about the Dark Moon? I read general fiction about the order and how they're Shar's MI6/CIA/FSB division, but I'm drawing blanks on them accomplishing anything concrete. It just makes sense to me that they wouldn't go into detail, since the details would likely be "And then the Dark Moon monk tried to cast a 3rd level spell, but their opponent ignored it and killed them as the monk tried to ineffectually defend themselves with their cheese fists."

I like Yossarin's idea about it being more of a ki powers thing than any real sorcery. Unless you're a sorcerer with a level of monk, I guess that could be okay.



I should hope so.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

I forget which one but I think one of the Elminster books had a good bit of the darkmoons in it if I remember correctly

I always sort of thought of it as like a UMD buffed monk.

Though they might not be -true- sorcs, their ever persistant attempts at self betterment, and their improved veneration with shar, and her Shadow Weave, could give them the unusual ability to preform magical tasks that are native within their religion, or sect?

Also, while I'm here, I was wondering what amia's lore on a Monks Spell Resistance is? Where does it come from, how is it activated, etc?

Sorry, but I didnt feel a whole different topic was needed. :/

I have no problem with that interpretation, but the prestige class is pretty clear that they have to be potent sorcerers.

Feel free to discuss other monk related stuff here - I'd also like to know the answer to that question.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

It's an extraordinary ability, which means it can't be suppressed by anything. The monk's mastery of the body is just so great that thyey can shrug off magic, I suppose.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Also have to keep in mind that alot of the lore is also based in PnP Where you can do things like combine touch spells with unarmed strike attacks, and there are PRCs like the arcane fist.

I've always liked explaining a monk's SR coming from their "oneness" with the immediate multiverse. When the Weave comes along to alter Reality, the monk's in-tune-ness with Reality allows them to essentially deny the alterations it makes, on their person at least.

It fits with the lore behind why some spells, mainly conjurations, do not have an SR roll. A monk can deny the altered Reality's effect of a Fireball because it is essentially a temporary(and forced) rearrangement of Reality. But he can't really deny the summoned cannon ball flying towards his head because it actually exists within real-space now as he does; only the effect that brought it to him altered the existential "rules" that normally apply. Greater Thunderclap is trickier I imagine, because it's an Evocation with no SR save. But I imagine this being from it actually setting up the spark for the shockwave through magic, but the effect itself comes from the pure physicality/chemistry of the result. In other words, it's magic that lights a mundane powder keg and rolls it towards you.



I'll try to find the other thread that had a few interesting theories about monks and their relation to magic and Realmspace in general.

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Was there anything regarding Monk Perfect Self abilities? Is there an explanation why Curse Song affects Mind-Affecting effect immune Monks in NWN?

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

Because neither bard song nor curse song are mind-affecting effects. If you want to know why, ask Bioware. If you want to know if we will find a way to break that and change it, the answer is no.