AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Silent2001 wrote:

When I say this, I say this is a player - not a DM - but I'd be willing to give a tiered system a shot.

Say,

Levels - 1-10
Levels - 11 - 20
Levels - 21+

It would be stupid, in my opinion, to have epic level characters run around with single digit characters and still expect them to learn something by watching some veteran warrior cut through monsters. It also makes an already easy server easier. I don't see the point.

My proposal would mean considerably higher level PCs can't help in lowbie areas effectively, but can take lowbies with them. Yes, that can be a bit of a problem. The benefit I see to it over your suggestion is obliterating artificial benchmarks and making it a seamless transition. But if the effect of your tier system could somehow be made seamless (so that it doen't matter so much if someone happens to be 21 rather than 19) that would be rather perfect.

Silent2001 wrote:

When I say this, I say this is a player - not a DM - but I'd be willing to give a tiered system a shot.

Say,

Levels - 1-10
Levels - 11 - 20
Levels - 21+

It would be stupid, in my opinion, to have epic level characters run around with single digit characters and still expect them to learn something by watching some veteran warrior cut through monsters. It also makes an already easy server easier. I don't see the point.

So a party of two 10's and two 11's would get the shaft?

Guardian wrote:

Extending the level range will lead to abuse (a.k.a. powerleveling).

yes but it would be more logical then the current way of the job system "picking a power level job like Orcharder, picking for a ton of exp, then juicing for even more"

at least if they are fighting they are fighting, not doing some lame job to get level 30, because the way I see it, all NPCs should be level 30s on Amia if we are claiming menial jobs and such grant EXP like that.

Here's a thought guys, and I'm about to leave to go grocery shopping. Instead of knit picking the current hunting system, let's talk about how to expand the job system. I don't mean adding more jobs, I mean expanding the current jobs to be more lucrative as a supplement to hunting.

Does anyone have any ideas on how to do this WITHOUT turning it into something like the orchard job where people just farm for apples etc?

honerstly, im all for removing leveling party size thing, due to one reason, I hate leveling, and i dont have the patience to do it the ultra level way that some can do, leveling in two days, i just want it to be over with, i dont want to spend days grinding when i should be rp'ing, low level is a pain in dm events from what ive seen dm mobs tend to be level 30+ and will rip you apart, so if yo want to be a active part in say the wars against anubis, you need to grind..and even if its slow leveling where you dont level alot or often, u are still gonna do 50(exaggerated) runs of spiders, about the same in minos and fire giants....honerstly i dont see ic reasoning for killing 2000000 spiders to get the levels, and i dont see why icly i cant have a experienced person with me.

...why must we waste time doing that grind, to reach the very invisible requirement of high level for rp, or atleast rp that pushes to get to that end as fast as possible, that seems to linger in many aspects of this server, atleast in my oppion?

((Edited a few times

I really like Iron's ideas. As far as abuse is concerned, it could be accomplished the same way I handle xp in PnP. When the party is out of level range, the xp is adjusted for the party and the xp is only rewarded for the player that kills the creature, everyone else gets a minimal amount of xp. Lets face it, if you want non-combat xp, you can still tailor yourself into an archmages robe. Apply a level calculation to access a particular loot bin, for example, loot bins are determined by the lowest level character in party.

I don't have xp problems in my PnP campaigns, nor problems with a mass of multiclass characters either. Players achieve xp for doing something, whether in combat, or through brilliant RP. The same concepts apply to NWN and Amia, there are now plenty of ways to garner non-combat xp and opening up combat xp should not really be all that difficult. Simply make sure that only groups within five levels of each other gain normal xp, those with a level range beyond five accrue a decreasing amount of xp according to the maximum level difference. And then apply loot in accordance with the lowest member of the party.

This would solve the scenario of five level thirties and one level three rampaging through the Spires killing the giants into extinction, as the party would be gaining very little xp and the loot would be determined by the level three that is tagging along. No mass of xp for following a group under invisibility, and the loot would be the same as you can get in the kobolds.

IronAngel wrote:

Apprenticeship is the problem I originally had with it years ago, when I would have loved to take Melee-Magthere people out to practice. I remember when Kalliniel (originally a ranger) was tutored in working together with his animal companion by Ohlde Mann, and in tactical archery by Fletch. Kir'nack's house weapons master showed him how to use the terrain to his advantage in the beastman caves. Luckily, in the latter case we were just about 5 levels apart, but in the former cases there was no actual XP for learning a lot of actually useful things. No matter, they were still great experiences, but stuff like that is uncommon and deserves to be encouraged. But now I think the general issue of just finding parties to role-play with is as important, so this question gains a wider importance.

But yeah, even a ten-level range would work better. I'd rather be done with it altogether, because worrying about it breaks immersion and if we modify the XP gain to cap rewards in a ten-level scale, we've already done the work to go all the way.

Some of the most memorable RP I've had were out of level range training sessions with my drow. Luckily in that society if a priestess or high ranking character says come with me, your character goes even when you know there's no XP. Anything that would foster more RP like that would be greatly appreciated.

I agree with Bravo's post. Seems to solve the concerns.

And thanks for opening this up to all

i completely understand why people find the slow grind to level 30 interesting, I just find it boring as hell

I don't want to find it boring, because combat is linked to rp. It's linked to your IG capabilities, seniority, and the areas you can go to or even learn about. And it's one way in which you bring something unique to a group experience while out adventuring. Being able to tackle enemies is one way of showing prowess or power of my character (even solo), and I like it. It's also essential for all kinds of Guardian roles in DM events or pvp.

Which makes the fact that I'm NOT an old-timer who knows how to power-level in 3 days all the more annoying, because new players will take months to get anywhere. I think this issue of levelling IS something that needs to be tackled to bring in new players and improve the experience for all, because the majority of players don't want a social rp server where your costume and talking is the only choice that matters and you may as well be level 1, they also want an engaging combat side.

EDIT: To be clearer, I like working my up. It's part of the growth story of the character. I just wish it was about 100 times faster after level 10.

I'm on both sides of the fence about 'grinding is boring'. On the one hand, it's annoying as hell sometimes because there are certain level ranges I find immensely difficult for any character I play. I think it's usually the 10-15 stretch and the 20ish stretch (though 25/27-30 is typically easy as pie). Even with a RP-active party there are times when I go 'ugh, screw this I'm bored', heh. So I do see that side.

On the other hand, I love it most of the time because it can be exciting (sometimes scary when you are trying to not die while hacking things up, and then running for your life in circles around your party and the spawn haha) and a good visual showcase of your characters power. Plus, there is something satisfying of having a 4-6 person party destroying an area and then moving to a new one.

That said, I can say without a doubt that if a higher-level person wanted to take my 15ish character hunting it would make it so much more fun. You can continue the RP and work on leveling at the same time. It also, like other people stated, make groups like the War Knights, drow, Barak Runedar dwarves, drow, DROW (drow? YAY DROW), make so much more sense in being able to train their own.

Just some extra tidbits I thought of.

I will add Silent's idea is intriguing. I was thinking of suggesting just increasing the level range from five to ten. That alone would increase the ability to hunt in a broader range of levels.

I am in favor of, at the least an extended range. It will work similar to how it does now where it takes into effect the range of levels in the group and the level of the hunting area. The further apart the group gets the lower the experience, and the further out from the area's level will do the same.

This way, if you take a level 5 with a level 15 through say, the beetles above the trolls which might be good for a level 10, they're within a certain range and you adjust the xp accordingly. It won't be super lucrative this way but it will allow people to role play together, and allow for training/guidance.

I remember at least once upon a time it was against the rules for someone out of range to go traveling with someone lower level regardless of whether they were partied or not. I actually remember once having my drow when she was a wee level 3, with 6 con, being shown the rat cavern by a melee magthere leader and having a DM say that any loot I gained would be considered twinking. This was in 2008 but I still remember how silly it seemed that an academy leader couldn't teach and guide my little rogue through level 1 spawns and keep the cure light wounds potion they found! It was a damper on our role play for sure.

So if anything I think an adjustment to that rule, if it still exists would be handy. I understand both sides of this argument. Yes power leveling is lame but the people who do it will find a way to do it regardless unless we make things WAY too strict for everyone which barely helps. I would like the freedom to play with my friends, or a new character that my character can take under her wing and show them the ropes. I would take a low level out and happily receive no experience for either of us in the name of roleplay if it wasn't against the rules, though they may be less eager to do so.

It does seem like hunting areas have gotten harder over the years, probably to try and curb the power leveling. It can be really tough for people who aren't the most build savvy, who don't minmax, who play in odd timezones or just can't find anyone to party with.

So... I am pro - range extension, pro - rule adjustment. Against a diminishing level plan to make high levels into low levels due to the complexity and other issues. I am anti-scroll leveling because it just doesn't seem fair.

Why not just allow ranges up to 10, but reduce XP by 5% for the entire party, for each level exceeded from the minimum/maximum range.

Party of 20,21,24,26,30 would get 50% xp but be able to party and gain XP from it.
A party of 20,21,23,24 and 26 could still hunt together, but at a 5% xp penalty to everyone, given that it's likely to stop people holding levels, force people that are 1 level above or below to stand around looking for another 1-3 hours, because people prefer to have the lowest level they can grab to tag along for increased XP. Given how long it takes to complete the last few levels unless you got time to grind, I don't really see a huge problem with it. Concerns about "abusing" the XP system are really voided because you can powerlevel quickly if you band together with a small group of people in your timezone. The problem with this now, as I see it.. is that there are few new chars levelling in my timezones currently, which makes levelling a serious hassle right now.

Guardian wrote:

666WaysToHell wrote:

Whilst getting your arse kicked by everyone who actually can do damage while you're busy taking down a nobody

Yeah, I forgot that taking down a "nobody" takes a lot of time.

Nevermind... those who actually wants to understand will. Others will argue.

I made my point. If there is a poll, I vote no. Nuff said.

You made your point several times over without deviation or iteration without providing a convincing argument otherwise. I remain unswayed. Smash the glass ceiling. Let RP trump XP and look on the bright side.

Midnight wrote:

I remember at least once upon a time it was against the rules for someone out of range to go traveling with someone lower level regardless of whether they were partied or not. I actually remember once having my drow when she was a wee level 3, with 6 con, being shown the rat cavern by a melee magthere leader and having a DM say that any loot I gained would be considered twinking. This was in 2008 but I still remember how silly it seemed that an academy leader couldn't teach and guide my little rogue through level 1 spawns and keep the cure light wounds potion they found! It was a damper on our role play for sure.

I think the only rule close to that now is the 'no babysitting' one. But that just means you can't heal/babysit/etc lowbies. If the lowbie is doing everything and the epic is just giving tips and morale support, I don't think that's against the rules. I could be wrong, though.

I just thought of a great reason to get rid of this. Less work for the DM's which means they can spend more time doing Story stuff and less time doing the police work they didn't sign up for.

One concern that immediately came to mind when reading this thread, that I've not seen addressed, is this:

The reason for doing this is cited (as near as I can tell) as being to increase RP between higher level character (HLC) and lower level characters (LLC), and to provide support from HLC to LLC for making it through the early states of the game, since player numbers are down and it's more difficult to find people to party with in the lower level ranges.

My concern with this is, several of the examples cited people with HLCs wanting to bring their friends, faction mates, etc. out to level and RP while doing so. Which is great. But it still leaves the people who are new to the server, who don't have any friends yet and are just starting out at level 2, out in the cold. Indeed it would make this symptom worse because a higher proportion of the LLCs on the server who do have friends with HLCs, would all be out hunting with them, or already skyrocketed to the mid-level range.

This proposal won't help people who are brand new to the server who don't know anyone prior to joining, or while there may be some (indeed praise worthy) exceptions to the rule, HLCs who take it upon themselves to hang around South Cordor and pick up new players to go hunting with, that will be vastly outweighed by the number of people who will be already out hunting with their friends, leaving the brand new players out in the cold.

I don't see that as improving the experience for those players, at all.

Guardian wrote:

A level 3 wizard Trolo wants to go out and kill pirates. Out from some RP pretext (vengence) he gathers a party of heroes (OOC : his pals) and they go hunting.

Glim wrote:

This proposal won't help people who are brand new to the server who don't know anyone prior to joining, or while there may be some (indeed praise worthy) exceptions to the rule, HLCs who take it upon themselves to hang around South Cordor and pick up new players to go hunting with, that will be vastly outweighed by the number of people who will be already out hunting with their friends, leaving the brand new players out in the cold.

I don't see that as improving the experience for those players, at all.

I agree.

Hmm. I still disagree. It will provide incentives to make friends and join factions! Can't find a random pickup but playing a good aligned paladin type? Well why not hook up with some obviously good guys from the (whatever) faction who are passing through and loudly proclaiming their intent to go and smoosh some goblin/spider/demon scum. Do a bit of RP and before you know it you'll have some IC contacts and maybe the beginning of some OOC friendships too.

(This was written in response to Glim's post!)

This may look at first like a blithe comment, but I mean it with genuine intentions.

More "Sellswords".

If it's the new players and their starting characters we're worried about, and getting them involved, then having a character that an established player is interested at low levels can help a lot. It doesn't have to be a Sellsword necessary, but I'm using the example as an archetype of a kind of henchman PC who can help new players get started on the server. They know the rounds and can explain things ICly about what shops a budding [insert class here] can go to, what places will be above their capacities at the moment, where they can go to earn a buck that doesn't involve killing, such as quests and Job System stuff. An IG, IC tour guide, but that doesn't mean it has to be devoid of meaningful RP.

There may concern that the RP that happens with such a henchman character may not ultimately amount to anything, in the case of someone like Vida who never levels up beyond 10, but that doesn't mean everyone has to play it that way. The significant part is to be kind of a helping hand out of the gate when no one else may be available and help out a new player get used to the server. From there they can forge their own rapports with other characters and players, but it makes the first impression less daunting. If even a handful of other players across the time zones were doing this, I think it would boost morale a lot.

But, there's a problem. We don't always know there is a new guy who needs help. Party Ball doesn't necessarily help either, because a new player may not know WTF or how to use it or why.

What if we could implement some kind of front desk bell for the entry room and encourage new players to use it if they need/want help? I'm not entirely sure how it might work, but I have this vision of players who are willing to guide new people around getting a ping via the Amia Messenger or something, with just the player+character name who they can then send a Tell and hash out from there.

Glim wrote:

My concern with this is, several of the examples cited people with HLCs wanting to bring their friends, faction mates, etc. out to level and RP while doing so. Which is great. But it still leaves the people who are new to the server, who don't have any friends yet and are just starting out at level 2, out in the cold. Indeed it would make this symptom worse because a higher proportion of the LLCs on the server who do have friends with HLCs, would all be out hunting with them, or already skyrocketed to the mid-level range.

This proposal won't help people who are brand new to the server who don't know anyone prior to joining, or while there may be some (indeed praise worthy) exceptions to the rule, HLCs who take it upon themselves to hang around South Cordor and pick up new players to go hunting with, that will be vastly outweighed by the number of people who will be already out hunting with their friends, leaving the brand new players out in the cold.

I don't see that as improving the experience for those players, at all.

That requires player initiative, nothing will change that. The part that Guardian is ignoring/forgetting is that there are a number of characters that would be willing to aid newer people. I, in fact, have several characters that would do so (for whatever reasons they might have). I know of a few others that one or two of my characters know that would help as well.

This change would not directly affect 'server unknowns', but it would directly help.

Naivatkal wrote:

The part that Guardian is ignoring/forgetting is that there are a number of characters that would be willing to aid newer people. I, in fact, have several characters that would do so (for whatever reasons they might have). I know of a few others that one or two of my characters know that would help as well.

A hit right under the belt. Ask a DM to check my vault - a vast number of my characters are under level 10, created solemnly as guides and henchmen.

I did not know that opposing this idea of level range stretch will picture me as an evil guy who refuse to help newcommers. Well I hope you have at least a cosy room in Tarkuul for me now, if nothing else.

LetumLux wrote:

What if we could implement some kind of front desk bell for the entry room and encourage new players to use it if they need/want help? I'm not entirely sure how it might work, but I have this vision of players who are willing to guide new people around getting a ping via the Amia Messenger or something, with just the player+character name who they can then send a Tell and hash out from there.

Now -there- is an idea I like.

A placeable right in the entry way that essentially says, "New to the server? Send a Tell to any of these people if you have any question, and welcome!"

Experienced players (could base it off time since the player's first character was created or something, and say, minimum 3months, just to throw a number out there) could click the placeable to add their name to it IG. Their name would remain on it until they log out.

Any other players (namely the newer ones) could click it to view the list of helpful folks who don't mind answering questions while IG.

*-*-*-*-*

On the subject of Sellswords and characters who would go out of their way to help new characters/players, yes they do exist, but they are far from the norm.

It's also fine and well to say that the HLCs helping their LLC friends level would invite others along and pick people up on the way... but especially in the case of RL friends, how often do most people actually stroll through a city proclaiming that they're about to go hunting trolls?

I know even myself when going to level with RL friends it usually consists of an MSN message or Tell, "Hey, you in the middle of any RP? Wanna go hunting and level a bit?"

*-*-*-*-*

*edit* And folks, keep it civil and focus on the discussion at hand, not at back and forth that don't help the idea.

I thought about what Glim said too, to be honest. But ultimately I think it's the kind of thing that's hard to predict and assumes that Amia is full of boring cliques. And that's not my experience. The people I gravitate towards are always open to new acquaintances and quick to invite new PCs into the RP. I'd like to think I'm not just playing with a minority.

I absolutely love thatt doorbell idea Letum had. It could be in the entry, but we should also create an IC place in Cordor where you would be sure to find company. That can be achieved with the design tweaks I've covered in the other topic.

It's quite hard to say whether this will leave new players on the sidelines more, or in fact help them. That seems like anyone's guess, and completely dependant on how much faith you have in our friendliness. But this much is certain: once they've reached that point of making friends and joining groups, they'll benefit a lot from being able to tag along with them.

Guardian wrote:

Ask a DM to check my vault - a vast number of my characters are under level 10, created solemnly as guides and henchmen.

I did not know that opposing this idea of level range stretch will picture me as an evil guy who refuse to help newcommers. Well I hope you have at least a cosy room in Tarkuul for me now, if nothing else.

What does that have to do with anything? I never said that you personally do not want to help newcomers, I was just stating that there are a number of people that would do so. It was not intended to come off that way.

Glim wrote:

LetumLux wrote:

What if we could implement some kind of front desk bell for the entry room and encourage new players to use it if they need/want help? I'm not entirely sure how it might work, but I have this vision of players who are willing to guide new people around getting a ping via the Amia Messenger or something, with just the player+character name who they can then send a Tell and hash out from there.

Now -there- is an idea I like.

I completely missed that, and I like what both LL and Glim mentioned. Interesting, indeed. I love helping newbs :3

edit:

Glim wrote:

*edit* And folks, keep it civil and focus on the discussion at hand, not at back and forth that don't help the idea.

Just caught this, and see the top ;3

Glim wrote:

LetumLux wrote:

What if we could implement some kind of front desk bell for the entry room and encourage new players to use it if they need/want help? I'm not entirely sure how it might work, but I have this vision of players who are willing to guide new people around getting a ping via the Amia Messenger or something, with just the player+character name who they can then send a Tell and hash out from there.

Now -there- is an idea I like.

A placeable right in the entry way that essentially says, "New to the server? Send a Tell to any of these people if you have any question, and welcome!"

Experienced players (could base it off time since the player's first character was created or something, and say, minimum 3months, just to throw a number out there) could click the placeable to add their name to it IG. Their name would remain on it until they log out.

Any other players (namely the newer ones) could click it to view the list of helpful folks who don't mind answering questions while IG.

Oooo!! Now that idea is far cooler than trying to make an extended level range fair and workable. I know there are quite a few players like myself that enjoy introducing new people to the server and easing the trials of finding your way around a new environment. *Thumbs up*

Wow! Really happy this idea is getting some serious discussion.

Glim wrote:

The reason for doing this is cited (as near as I can tell) as being to increase RP between higher level character (HLC) and lower level characters (LLC), and to provide support from HLC to LLC for making it through the early states of the game, since player numbers are down and it's more difficult to find people to party with in the lower level ranges.

And also so that people can stick with the adventuring groups they've been having fun with, without quite as much pressure to keep up.

Glim wrote:

My concern with this is, several of the examples cited people with HLCs wanting to bring their friends, faction mates, etc. out to level and RP while doing so. Which is great. But it still leaves the people who are new to the server, who don't have any friends yet and are just starting out at level 2, out in the cold. Indeed it would make this symptom worse because a higher proportion of the LLCs on the server who do have friends with HLCs, would all be out hunting with them, or already skyrocketed to the mid-level range.

This proposal won't help people who are brand new to the server who don't know anyone prior to joining, or while there may be some (indeed praise worthy) exceptions to the rule, HLCs who take it upon themselves to hang around South Cordor and pick up new players to go hunting with, that will be vastly outweighed by the number of people who will be already out hunting with their friends, leaving the brand new players out in the cold.

I don't see that as improving the experience for those players, at all.

I agree, that is a valid concern. Which is why I think expanding the level range system (a small change) is preferable to destroying it entirely. Heck, just expanding it from 5 levels to 8 would go a long way in helping people get in groups.

Maybe I missed it as I was just reading for key words to gain an idea of the basic overview of people's points and arguments.

But it seems to me that everybody is missing one key aspect to a (as Glim put it) LLC partying with a HLC. Loot. It's the equivocating factor for me. Even a few level 18's taking a level 4 with them through a few cycles of the FoD can net that level 4 tens of thousands of gold in very little time. Those thousands can then be used to buy the best gear for the level and a stack of summons scrolls which can get that LLC up to par with them in very little time.

I know that not everybody has "friends in high places", but to add XP and more gold to the gold they can already net from selling off loot or just the potential to get loot in the first place would throw the tentative balance way off. Those LLC's without "friends in high places" still won't get picked up by HLC parties because of the drawbacks of having them and those with such "friends" will only advance even faster than they already do.

I had an idea here:

Naivatkal wrote:

For the loot issue, I forgot to supply a possible idea:

Why not make the loot drops equivalent to the lowest party member's CR? That way, if a level 30 and 3 go to Brog, the level 3 is not getting +3 loot suddenly. They would be getting the measly crap they normally would. It would also remove the issue of epic chars using lowbies to inflate loot drop percentages. Because, after all, if you are doing it for RP and IC reasons you don't care that you are getting 1 XP a kill and drops worth 1k.

IC it is explained that other lower level people were stomped on for being there and boom, have some crappy gear!

Of course, if we go with a lengthened level range (ie from 5 to 10 or 8 or whatever), it would have to be looked at differently. Maybe the balance would be good, or maybe the loot drops can be balanced based on average party ecl, or something.

555444333 wrote:

It will provide incentives to make friends and join factions!

This is exactly correct. One of the best reasons to let a lowbie tag along is to create an IC contact, someone that you can adventure with in the future, and if you're involved in factional RP, someone who could be an ally in the future. Increasing the level range makes it much easier to include someone when you're out fighting monsters, for whatever reason that may be.

As for loot, who cares? Everyone ends up with the same uber equipment from the Abyss or Gauntlet, the only question is how long it takes you to get there. If there were constant PvP at all levels, then we might have a problem, because certain people would have a significant material advantage when they take the field, but we don't. So let's say the worst comes to pass and lowbies with high level friends get lots of gold, sweet gear, and they level up quickly. The only thing we've changed is how long it takes for the lowbie to catch up, nothing else.

Seriously. Nothing else.

555444333 wrote:

Less work for the DM's which means they can spend more time doing Story stuff and less time doing the police work they didn't sign up for.

Yes. A million times yes.

TYP wrote:

As for loot, who cares? Everyone ends up with the same uber equipment from the Abyss or Gauntlet, the only question is how long it takes you to get there. If there were constant PvP at all levels, then we might have a problem, because certain people would have a significant material advantage when they take the field, but we don't. So let's say the worst comes to pass and lowbies with high level friends get lots of gold, sweet gear, and they level up quickly. The only thing we've changed is how long it takes for the lowbie to catch up, nothing else.

Sure... sure.

Well, I think I have a solution. Make everyone lvl 30 from start (because sooner or later they will reach vll 30), pack 'em up with Abyss gear (because sooner or later they will obtain it) and then let them RP. You do not have to worry about Level Range, problem solved. *shrugs*

Maybe I am a wacko, but as a new player, all I want is :

- Minimal OOC
- Maximal RP

If I'd join a server where a bunch of "veterans" would take me under their wing, boost me with loot and xps, I'd leave. Immeditelly. Because it no longer is a role playing server for me, but a Warhammer Online deja vu. You ARE supposed to be weak and frail on start, and you ARE supposed to work it out with your equals. The fact there is a chance to quickly level to 3 and then even higher by a mere pressing of juice is another issue (an issue we should focus on, as I said previously).
I find the most enjoyable part a character creation and progress, but progress in a RP point of view. What is so magical about level 30? Look how many people reached level 30 and stopped playing or created alts. And you know why? They got bored. Bored with character they had zero connection to, because they did not have a chance to create it due to fact they hit the top after two weeks.
Play a character you want to play, fuck levels and loot. Loot will come and go, level 30 will come as well eventually. Give it a time, focus on your character instead.

I rather agree with Guardian's last post, nevertheless I don't disagree with the concept entirely. How about expanding the level range to say 10 levels either side (that way Lv 20s can play with lv30s and 12s with people who've just come in the door). The doorbell idea is also a fantastic one if it can be implemented.

One thing I'd really like to point out that for individual Factions and Cities (read: drow), the limited range of level REALLY restricts a lot of their RP to being in the city, unless they are dragged out, which, don't get me wrong, was fun as hell, but it is still a heavy restriction. The only other suggestion I can think of is allowing full range of partying to go on, but capping XP by Challenge Rating, so an ECL 3 character can only get xp from a CR 8 monster or lower. This would also limit the trade secret of buying scrolls of summon monster VII and rocking around with that until the mid teens.

I brought up loot as the primary concern in the first post.

The problem is, as I understand it, that loot bins are determined by the creature, not the killer. Within the current system, it doesn't seem possible to scale loot to party level. If that were to change, we could do something with it. Or you could make the selling cap scale on level, so that lowbies won't get 25k for an item no matter how good it is. Since they also can't use them, they'd sell them for cheaper. (Though there is the possibility that they'd sell them to other PCs.) Right now I'm still hoping for creative solutions.

Would it be possible to add an extra loot bin that would kick in when the party levels exceed a range of 5? You wouldn't get normal loot at all, but rather potions, scrolls, other adventuring supplies and things that are relatively valuable and useful at all levels, but not unbalancing?

But ultimately I do think it's not that big of an issue, since gold is virtually unlimited at all stages of the game. Never do you actually run out of it, unless you're some potion addict still drinking Bubblies and Mindblanks "just in case" against a bunch of melee thugs. Unless you're still going through with some harsh economic changes to make money matter, it's probably not that big a deal.

Either way, it seems increasing the range to 10 is a popular solution. I still find it too restrictive, as one of the main goals is to facilitate drow house, dwarf clan, mercenary group and other faction excursions. But if we settle with the range, then loot becomes even less of an issue. The loot available in an area a level 20 and a level 10 would tackle together is not that unbalancing compared to what a level 15 and a level 10 would currently be getting.

At the moment, I think Gravemaskin's suggestion has the most merit in its elegance:

Quote:

Why not just allow ranges up to 10, but reduce XP by 5% for the entire party, for each level exceeded from the minimum/maximum range.

Party of 20,21,24,26,30 would get 50% xp but be able to party and gain XP from it.

This also prevents taking a lowbie along to boost XP.

How about we go further with it, and also remove the party size restriction with a similar model? Make every additional member incur a 20% penalty. A party of 7 would gain 80% XP, a party of 8 60%, and a party of 10 only 20%. I don't know if that's a balanced number, but it seems pretty neat. Could be 25% even, making 8 members cost 50%. These two penalties would stack, so a party with 7 members and a 10-level range would get 30% XP.

This model lets you make exceptions and sacrifices when you don't want to leave someone behind, but ensures that you won't exactly benefit mechanically from it. Loot is a non-issue because the levels are still pretty close to eachother, and the more people you take with you the more people you have sharing it.

I'm pretty excited. I think this is probably the closest we've come to a balanced, seamless system that avoids exploits but also draws excessive focus away from ECL. If you're still concerned with loot, you could also make the loot chance drop by 1% for every level exceeding the range of 5. (This is obviously unnecessary with party size, as more people share the loot.)

Last edited by Selmak on Wed, Aug 29 2012, 10:28 AM, edited 1 time in total.

Well it makes sense to have an XP penalty for what essentially amounts to making an encounter a bit easier.

What would concern me there is the level 20 being dragged off to fight something that they can't even put a dent in, because the party would likely be fighting monsters that are about level 24 based on average ECL.

To be honest I wouldn't get excited about an increase to the party size limit. Having party size AND range penalties working against you would be disheartening to say the least, so I'd never want players to have to contend with that situation.

Besides, the more players you have in a party, the less likely it is that someone will get a chance to contribute. It's difficult enough already to even get a sniff of something before the 'imma run ahead and kill stuff' people have disposed of it.

As for loot though, well you can't exactly take a 10% hit there, it would have to shift you down a table or something. Which you can argue is a good thing, as what's the point in a low level getting stuff that they can't use and have to sell to get stuff that they can use.

You know, now that I've looked at it with a fresh perspective... raising the level range just seems like a way to make leveling more of a breeze for the player base. Eat your levels and be done with it!

Raising the level cap isn't going to attract new players who don't know anything about the game. It's just going to make it easier for your level 3 bard to get run by my level 30 blackguard. I think we need to dismiss this idea entirely. It won't accomplish what we're trying to do and it will give the staff an unnecessary amount of work when they could spend that time client side enjoying their DMing.

Y' hear that power levelers? I'd like to see some RPing getting done instead of worrying about what level your are. And hiding behind the "it'll attract more new people" gimmick is a poor disguise at best. It's just going to encourage the same people hanging out with each other and never leaving Kohlingen or never leaving Cordor or never leaving Tarkuul and etc. RPing with new people and showing them around will bring that new person into the server!

Hell, I met some cleric of Chauntee who'd never RP'd before and didn't know anything about the server and he was one of the most fun people I'd ever grouped with! You just need to try to open the door as opposed to making up excuses for why it's closed.

It's not power levelling though if you're taking a hit of 50% for having someone in the party who is five levels out (yes, I think 5% per level out is way too soft). That's the opposite of power levelling. It's taking your XP, chopping it in half with a cleaver, giving you half and throwing the other half in the trash while you grit your teeth and soldier on.

There are two ways to find RP on a server.

One: Go to an RP hub and look for people
Two: Click on party search and RP with the people you hunt with.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

It won't accomplish what we're trying to do and it will give the staff an unnecessary amount of work when they could spend that time client side enjoying their DMing.

Not that the rest of your post had much merit, but this is particularly silly. You clearly don't even understand "what we're trying to do" (though it seems different people have different motives) and more importantly, appealing to the staff's workload is the worst excuse ever. First of all, they're perfectly capable of making that determination themselves. Secondly, there are developers and designers whose role it is to handle stuff like this. Not all of them are DMs, and those who are spend much of their time doing module changes because they enjoy it, because it's a talent they can use to make Amia better, and because that's one reason they're needed. The argument that something "gives DMs more time to run quests in game" (yes, something that was also used in favor of my suggestion) is the most populist, ill-conceived excuse thrown around on these forums.

I don't think you really understand how to level and farm gold fast, anyhow. Even without the additional XP penalties, an unbalanced party wouldn't be efficient. You'd do much better with a powerhouse Bard-Cleric-WM team of equal level plowing through challenging enemies, no dead weight with them. The whole argument of powerleveling in relation to this topic is absurd and uninformed.

Selmak: I doubt people would want a larger party size for regular hunting, anyway. I think it's pretty commonly agreed that a balanced party of 3 or 4 is the best way to hunt efficently, safely, profitably and so that it's fun. But while we're tweaking the formulae, I don't see why we couldn't add the option for those special occasions of faction adventures and other large quests. If you give something as steep as 20-25% penalty for each member, there's no chance of it ever getting exploited. But it could work for people organizing large expeditions to the Abyss to reach the shop together, for example. Something like that is only positive, as it breeds cooperation and interaction. It will never be the norm, but it would be nice and harmless if it were possible.

And again, if we stick with the 10-level range I don't think there's any need to tweak loot. At best, you'll get loot from one bin higher than normally, but with an XP penalty. It should balance it our pretty nicely. We only need to worry about loot if the restriction is removed altogether.

50% at 10-level difference seems perfect to me, but Grave's math was actually off. It's 10% penalty per level, assuming it starts after the 5 levels that are acceptable now. 10% for 6-level-difference, 20% for 7, up to 50% for 10.

It rather bothers me how what you're trying will mostly benefit people who are content to remain isolated within their own niche groups of friends, and won't even acknowledge the fact that this only makes the problems brought up even worse.

Instead of meeting new people that they otherwise might not have played with on their main for whatever reason... you could simply bug your mage friend to kill things in bulk for you.

And I know you're going to feed me some rather logical reasoning about how the xp can just get nuked. But when you kill things in a certain volume... it doesn't matter if its nuked.

So yeah... You've got a level 3 and a level 30 going into FoD and that level 30 just starts spamming fireballs into groups while his epic summon tanks them. That group is dead pretty quickly. You'd change the game from getting high numbers to getting LOTS of numbers.

Frankly... I think that's a lot worse than people who abuse Greater Planar Binding scrolls.

And if you're going to suggest that the people who are DMing aren't coding, then you should look at their work first. I can think of at least one DM off hand who's working with a major city and has worked with scripting and stuff for the module. And that's something I saw when I was looking through the request forums, not even asking what the DMs do. It's never a good idea to assume the two are mutually exclusive.

And you based an entire attack on my point on something that WASN'T my point! My point is that it ISN'T going to benefit NEW players. It will only benefit new CHARACTERS.

New PLAYERS don't know what's going on here and aren't sure of who to talk to or where to go. New characters made by old players don't have that problem. I'm not saying that I don't potentially like the idea either, I'm saying that it won't accomplish the goal you're saying it will, which is to attract new people and get them interested. The only way you can do that is to be bloody inclusive in your RP.

So before you go trying to base your argument on something I said, make sure it's not a trivial comment that I added at the end of one sentence of a paragraph, make sure you're making a relevant argument.

If I were going to make a point of how difficult coding and programing and scripting can be, I'd ask a developer to copy some of his script for me and let you decipher it. But I didn't. I made an off handed comment in the other half of a sentence and then went on to make my point.

The fact that you dismissed the rest of my post as having no merit just means that you've shut out the idea that what you're doing could even POSSIBLY hurt the server.

I was only trying to point out that it really can do some damage by engendering that "clique" mentality that I've heard so many people complain about. I think we need to work harder to be inclusive and inviting. I really, seriously think that trying to function more like a community and less like a group of individuals will make things better.

___

Wow, this one was kind of long. I'm going to sleep now, but I hope my input at least helps.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

The fact that you dismissed the rest of my post as having no merit just means that you've shut out the idea that what you're doing could even POSSIBLY hurt the server.

No, it means that you need to let the "power levelers" crap go. In all honesty it makes you sound like a prick who thinks that anyone who doesn't play the way you do is a powerleveler/gamer who should pack his bags and leave, or in the very least be ashamed of himself for not RPing (what?)

I fail to see how you can say that this wouldn't benefit new players. You'd basically be extending the range at which people can interact outside of cities.. isn't that a good thing? It means that any kind veteran can actually escort someone into an area without having a DM looming over his shoulder going "Baaaabysitting".

And come on, never happened to you that you're out leveling with someone and you bump into another person/group, you RP for several minutes before the dreaded "// ECL?" comes up and you all realize you're out of range, so someone needs to come up with an excuse as to you why they can't join you?

Let me show you a conversation that actually happened IC the other day.. Me and a friend were hunting in darkhold and we bumped into this guy (who had a summon from a scroll) who was dying. After my friend patched him up things went pretty much like (abridged version)
"Thanks for saving me blablablabla"
"blablabla, no problem, blablabla"
"Perhaps we could join forces in defeating the undead in this place? //ECL 4"
"// Ah, we're both ECL 10.."
"Nevermind, I'll just be going! Good luck to you"

Makes sense? No. These are the kinds of situations that can be avoided. Not everyone who wants an extended range is a powerleveler (god, that term is hilarious). Some people.. you know.. just want a mechanic that actually hinders RP to go away.

Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Aug 29 2012, 12:14 PM, edited 4 times in total.

I'm not selling this as a miracle cure to hook new players. I also don't see the point in suggesting other ways to do that in this topic, as good as they may be; there's a different place for that, and being inclusive, adding front desk bells or tweaking the job system has absolutely nothing to do with the party level range. This is primarily a matter of increasing interaction without the need for constant OOC concern about ECL. It is an improvement in immersion and options for everyone. It just happens that we've also been talking about bringing new players into the fold, so it's fair to mention that's one effect this may have.

It's highly speculative and pessimistic to think Amia is full of cliques who ignore new players. If that's a genuine problem, it's something beyond the scope of any party system rearrangement and thus an unfair point to use here. I already did cover that point in my response to Glim: it could go either way, and probably there will be both those who stick to cliques and those who're even more eager to involve new players. Without any evidence or strong reasons to think one way or the other, it's probably not a very high priority point to determine the decision. It's a valid point, but not the one you actually presented in any balanced, fair manner in your post. You just made a lot of wide generalizations and inaccurate claims about what might happen, and also brought in the whole "powerlevel" concept that's both offensive and unfounded.

Your 3-30 example is a pretty atrocious strawman at this point, when almost everyone has agreed that a 10-level range is a reasonable solution. (I'm not completely satisfied, but it's more likely to pass.) Cliques consist of level 30 characters. When you make a new character, those buddies can't help you. If they want to log onto lower-level alts, that's something they can just as easily do currently.

You'll also note I said not every developer and designer is a DM. Not that none of them are. (I think Mosh and Glim are handling it, with a team of non-DM thralls like Selmak?) The point is, using that as an argument is populism. We don't have to shield them from the cruel world. They're fully capable of letting us know if it's too much work for them. Considering the wide support the idea has gained, though, I'm pretty sure they think it's at least worth looking into.

I still say just get rid of it. That extended range is still going to bite people in the ass.
// ECL?
//I'm 5
//Well bob is 17 cos he's an drow/spider/ogrillon. Soo uh. Sorry, bye.

Re: loot, could you keep the drops as they are (currently determined by creature) but change the price a shopkeeper will buy them for if an item is way out of your level? If price can be adjusted for shopkeeper reaction, could you also put a limit of item level diminishing gold, to a minimum of what you'd get for an item of your own level?

If the warhammer is 15 levels above what a PC can use anyway, its only benefit to them is as gold. Cut the gold, and there's no/less reason to abuse farming the items?

IronAngel wrote:

It's highly speculative and pessimistic to think Amia is full of cliques who ignore new players.

I really need to get some sleep before I start posting on the forums, because I turn into an ass. I'm in a clique. I hope that rant I just threw at you doesn't turn into the basis of what people think of me from here on out. It's 8 am here and I'm still not asleep X_X

My only real point was that I don't think this will accomplish the goal it's intended for. I actually like the idea itself. I just thing the implementation needs to be handled carefully.

I just got butthurt because I felt like I got taken out of context and my sleep depraved mind is a bit addled right now, so I couldn't filter myself out. I like the idea, I just think it needs to be accessed carefully if we do implement it and I think some careful measures would need to be implemented beyond just a blanket xp penalty scaling to your level. I just didn't articulate that very well.

So, er... Sorry. I was a jerk in my last post.

-Dark Faith- wrote:

anyone who doesn't play the way you do is a powerleveler/gamer who should pack his bags and leave, or in the very least be ashamed of himself for not RPing

I'm getting this vibe too. A full server requires a live and let live policy so when someone comes there are as few reasons for them to leave as possible. If you don't want to level with people who are more than five levels away from your own character, don't. If someone does, because it's fun, or easy, or it's part of their RP (the examples of asking for ECL are spot on, and have happened to me plenty of times), then let them. Just ignore it and it won't take anything away from your RPing.

Steveb: Yeah, I suggested something like that a few posts up. It's one option, though a little counter-intuitive and awkward. But once more: I'm not sure loot is an issue at all within only a 10-level range. It's a one bin difference, not necessarily even that if it's more LLCs and one HLC. There are only 5 different loot bins on Amia, I think? Barring epic boss loot. It's not profitable XP-wise to grind with the max range, so it's hardly dangerous if it pays some gold. The high levels themselves would be better of farming gold on their own, since they wouldn't have to share the loot.

Other options included a special loot bin with consumables and other useful, cheap stuff, lowering the loot bin by 1 step in a party that exceeds the 5-level range, and a scaling decrease in loot chance.

I will be drawing up a clear proposal for Things to Change once there's been some more comments, by the way. I doubt the DMs and designers have all had the time to read every post here and pick out the concrete suggestions, so that should make it easier for them to decide on and tweak further.

Bob: No problem, I was actually a little surprised by your post considering the stuff I've seen from you earlier. I know and agree that this isn't a miracle cure for new players, but I seriously doubt it's a turn for the worse either.

steveb_uk wrote:

If the warhammer is 15 levels above what a PC can use anyway, its only benefit to them is as gold. Cut the gold, and there's no/less reason to abuse farming the items?

I think that would be to difficult to script. I wouldn't now since I don't have the head for that sort of thing, but it sounds like you'd be trying to scale down the price by level, but make sure you don't scale it up at higher levels.

But I don't know much about how the system works anyway. It just sounds extremely difficult.

IronAngel wrote:

Bob: No problem, I was actually a little surprised by your post considering the stuff I've seen from you earlier. I know and agree that this isn't a miracle cure for new players, but I seriously doubt it's a turn for the worse either.

I do one of two things when I'm tired. I get really irritable, or I laugh at god damn everything, lol.

It's very difficult to limit what a shopkeeper will pay for a particular item. There are things we can't do with shops, like read the merchant's mark-up margin and use it to calculate what your price 'should' be.

It's much easier in fact to take the player's level at time of looting and generate an item randomly for them. I'm not saying that would be the way to go for all loot, just that if you're getting a reward at the end of clearing a dungeon or what have you (and everyone else gets one too) it makes sense if it matches your level or is close enough that you'll be able to use it soon.

I liked the idea of rewarding teamwork, basically, and not giving out so many spoils that you're tripping over them, but I don't know how that would go over.

It seems kinda random, that the level 17 babysitting the level 12 would get awesome loot in the same dungeon whilst the level 12 is getting potato peelers... :lol:

Level Range

Who is online