Removing the ECL entirely is not on the table, imo.
That being said, this thread seems to be starting to rehash what has already been said (I did actually read every post Iron ) and so I'd like to move it on up for discussion topside if there's nothing "new" by tonight.
My concern with this is, several of the examples cited people with HLCs wanting to bring their friends, faction mates, etc. out to level and RP while doing so. Which is great. But it still leaves the people who are new to the server, who don't have any friends yet and are just starting out at level 2, out in the cold. Indeed it would make this symptom worse because a higher proportion of the LLCs on the server who do have friends with HLCs, would all be out hunting with them, or already skyrocketed to the mid-level range.
This proposal won't help people who are brand new to the server who don't know anyone prior to joining, or while there may be some (indeed praise worthy) exceptions to the rule, HLCs who take it upon themselves to hang around South Cordor and pick up new players to go hunting with, that will be vastly outweighed by the number of people who will be already out hunting with their friends, leaving the brand new players out in the cold.
I don't see that as improving the experience for those players, at all.
Boom.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
How about increasing the xp you get for burning DCs? It would help those who can't solo grind through the less populated levels, and reward and encourage good rp.
(Or do people use DCs for a serious amount of levelling already? I'm hoarding mine for rebuilds...)
_________________ Gunthar Einarsson, Skald. Also brewer of Ale. Also drinker of Ale. Marcus Tyrell, Druid of Mielikki. Julius Tarl, Sorcerer.
Not sure what that has to do with this suggestion, though. This has nothing to do with making leveling easier. At least that was never my intention. My motive is very simple: role-playing and adventuring across levels without OOC interruption is fun and cool. It isn't done nearly enough as is. How can we encourage it? Make it rewarding. That's really the core of this issue. It may help other problems indirectly, but the main goal is to encourage that kind of partying itself. I think many people missed this central point.
And to counter the clique argument once more: If there really are stiff cliques, they'll consist of epic characters, usually level 30 - not level 13s that could level with a new PC. If they want to jump on an alt to help their buddy level, they're doing that already. By the time you're high enough to party with your epic buddies (though I continue to be skeptical that Amia's playerbase is so bad), you'll be 15 or so and will have met many new players and new characters. It is a valid concern, but nowhere near as threatening or purely negative as you make it out to be. It certainly won't negatively impact the very first levels, which are critical to new players.
Here's my final suggestion. Really glad Glim's read all of it and probably has his own ideas, but hopefully this helps some:
XP calculated based on average party ECL in comparison to monster CR. No change here. "Ideal Level Range" up to a difference of 5. No change from status quo. "Stretched Level Range" 6-10. For each level more than 5 apart from someone else, apply a 10% XP penalty, up to 50% at 10-level difference. (Apply the same formula to gold drops?)
Loot options: 1) No change. A 10-level range is not dramatic. It will mean a 1-step improvement in loot bin, if that. If you're getting loot out of your level range from one bin up, it also means you're partying with someone significantly higher (near the 10-level cap), and so your XP will be drastically cut to balance it. 2) For Stretched Level Range parties, drop loot from one bin lower than the area normally gives (with the exception of bosses). 3) Change the loot system entirely, rather generating random loot at the end of the dungeon or several stages of it, based on the recipient's level. Everyone gets a level-appropriate reward. 4) Decrease loot chance for every level exceeding the Ideal Level Range. Numbers up to you. 5) Tweak buy prices, perhaps scaling on level. Complicated and awkward, but brought up nonetheless.
BONUS LEVEL: Party Size Allow more PCs (or summons) to join the party. Past 6 people, apply 25% XP (and gold) penalty. Seven people would get 75% XP, eight people 50% XP, and nine people 25%. Ten+ people could still be allowed to gain XP at a severe penalty, like 10% or capped at 7 XP per kill. Or they could get nothing at all, that's fine too. This stacks with the level range penalties, making "abuse" impossible (unprofitable), but enables those special occasions where entire factions go on expeditions, or people organize player-run quests to some dangerous areas. Wouldn't come into play often, but synergizes well with the above tweaks and seems harmless enough.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Aug 29 2012, 19:36 PM, edited 1 time in total.
How about increasing the xp you get for burning DCs? It would help those who can't solo grind through the less populated levels, and reward and encourage good rp.
(Or do people use DCs for a serious amount of levelling already? I'm hoarding mine for rebuilds...)
I've always thought the amount of XP a DC gives for how slowly you accumulate them to be pretty stingy. I'd suggest that burning a DC simply levels you up, period, instead of taking 3 and some change to get a level.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
NinjaClarinet wrote:
steveb_uk wrote:
How about increasing the xp you get for burning DCs? It would help those who can't solo grind through the less populated levels, and reward and encourage good rp.
(Or do people use DCs for a serious amount of levelling already? I'm hoarding mine for rebuilds...)
I've always thought the amount of XP a DC gives for how slowly you accumulate them to be pretty stingy. I'd suggest that burning a DC simply levels you up, period, instead of taking 3 and some change to get a level.
Will only lead to a DC hoarding and burning when one reach epic levels. Besides, I really, really doubt that one DC should be equal to, let's say, 20k xps (which is requested to level when epic).
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
Last edited by Guardian on Wed, Aug 29 2012, 19:34 PM, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
NinjaClarinet wrote:
Problem?
Yes. If you get a DC for RPing on level 4 and burn it to level from 27 to 28 (roughly 20k xp is requested), I see it as a huge problem.
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
My concern with this is, several of the examples cited people with HLCs wanting to bring their friends, faction mates, etc. out to level and RP while doing so. Which is great. But it still leaves the people who are new to the server, who don't have any friends yet and are just starting out at level 2, out in the cold. Indeed it would make this symptom worse because a higher proportion of the LLCs on the server who do have friends with HLCs, would all be out hunting with them, or already skyrocketed to the mid-level range.
This proposal won't help people who are brand new to the server who don't know anyone prior to joining, or while there may be some (indeed praise worthy) exceptions to the rule, HLCs who take it upon themselves to hang around South Cordor and pick up new players to go hunting with, that will be vastly outweighed by the number of people who will be already out hunting with their friends, leaving the brand new players out in the cold.
I don't see that as improving the experience for those players, at all.
Boom.
This is essentially what I meant to convey when I wrote my sleep depraved asshole-ish post and is how I feel when I think about the subject. I don't really think I could state it better.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
I'm not sure we should create an even greater unbalance between the haves and have-nots of the DC question. I'd rather DMs be more generous with rewarding XP directly for role-play that has something to do with your character's advancement.
Bob: I know. But as I've said, I find it speculative, pessimistic, not inevitably based on the facts, and something that will probably go both ways: some players stick to cliques, others go out of their way not to. It depends on how negatively you view the playerbase, I suppose. Either way, something so uncertain shouldn't be the primary argument to tip the scales one way or the other.
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Aug 29 2012, 19:44 PM, edited 1 time in total.
I'm not sure we should create an even greater unbalance between the haves and have-nots of the DC question. I'd rather DMs be more generous with rewarding XP directly for role-play that has something to do with your character's advancement.
This.
We even have a nice little XP wand. We just need to use it more (when it makes sense to, of course).
Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Location: The Sky Above The Rain.
IronAngel wrote:
I'd rather DMs be more generous with rewarding XP directly for role-play that has something to do with your character's advancement.
Yes!
_________________ Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem* Alex - Life is adventure or nothing! Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex. ========= Obsidian (inactive)
I'm not sure we should create an even greater unbalance between the haves and have-nots of the DC question. I'd rather DMs be more generous with rewarding XP directly for role-play that has something to do with your character's advancement.
My personal opinion is that it would even the unbalance, not disrupt it. People would be more willing to spend them on levels, which are a commodity you can acquire through grinding anyway. Reskins and custom goodies -cannot- be acquired through other means. I, personally, have a larger cache of DCs than I would otherwise if burning them was more profitable.
My opinion is that levels are an OOC anyway and have no relation to role play unless you are really into using the dice for role play(which still others can ignore if they wish). If the level range is restricting role play, then by all means extend it to where it is not such a large issue. No player should have to worry about an OOC mechanic when role play is involved.
I will admit up front, I am brand new here and have not had time to explore the server, but I have read this whole thread and believe that the range should be increased, just for the reasons that it will bring about more role play with less worry about OOC level ranges.
My opinion is that levels are an OOC anyway and have no relation to role play unless you are really into using the dice for role play(which still others can ignore if they wish). If the level range is restricting role play, then by all means extend it to where it is not such a large issue. No player should have to worry about an OOC mechanic when role play is involved.
I will admit up front, I am brand new here and have not had time to explore the server, but I have read this whole thread and believe that the range should be increased, just for the reasons that it will bring about more role play with less worry about OOC level ranges.
Ramble is over and also a big hello to everyone.
Level is in character because it defines the advancement of the character. It may not be in character to be level 15, but the game world certianly changes in its perception and acknowledgement of your character when you cna cast a burning hands vs a maximized fireball, or attack once a round vs dual weilding for 6 attacks a round. It represent si ncharacter skill and breadth and depth of talent. You can't ignore it, and using dice for roleplauy is not bad, outside of trying to force social skills on other PCs. DnD is a dice based game: The're going to get used. Unless you're suggesting that rolling spot vs stealth for concealing weapons is somehow worse off than the game engine rolling spot and stealth for you, for hiding?
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Dice used correctly are perfectly fine. Perhaps I did use the wrong words in saying levels are OOC. So I will admit that point. The point of my post is the decision should rest on the characters to decide who to bring along with them, without the fear of getting penalized for it. If it encourages role play I am all for it.
It's not strictly an XP penalty if you're bringing along someone who is more skilled than you. You're changing the conditions of the encounter, making it easier for the group as a whole to succeed. The same thing happens if you yourself level up and then go back to fight like, kobolds or something. They aren't as difficult any more, so you don't get the same XP as you did when you first fought them (when the shamans would wave their arms around and scare you with their powah).
Even if you remove the part that says 'Nein! Your lowest and highest party members are more than five levels apart!' you still have to contend with the fact that a high-level character will add to your party's total ECL (which is compared to the mosnter's challenge rating) and reduce the XP that everyone receives, requiring the party to move to a richer feeding ground... I mean, hunting ground. This makes it more dangerous and less profitable for those involved.
In a sense, having a level range acts as a safety measure as well as preventing some really distasteful powerlevelling. So in the absence of a level range, it's sensible to have an adjustment in place to not make it ideal to have party members that are far apart in terms of levels.
Last edited by Selmak on Thu, Aug 30 2012, 12:31 PM, edited 1 time in total.
It's not strictly an XP penalty if you're bringing along someone who is more skilled than you. You're changing the conditions of the encounter, making it easier for the group as a whole to succeed. The same thing happens if you yourself level up and then go back to fight like, kobolds or something. They aren't as difficult any more, so you don't get the same XP as you did when you first fought them (when the shamans would wave their arms around and scare you with their powah).
Yes, but the normal XP formula already accounts for that: if you bring someone of higher ECL into the party, the average increases and the whole party's relation to the monster CR changes. That already incurs an XP "penalty." The suggested 10%/level would be on top of this. It's assumed that if someone more experienced joins you, you'll have to move onto something more challenging to maintain rewarding XP rates. The result would be that when you're be doing something matching your average party ECL, the party within ILR will get more XP than the party within SLR. If the difference is only one level, the average ECL isn't changed a whole lot, you won't be able to take monsters much harder than before, and the 10% penalty will account for whatever improvement in performance you experience. If one member is 3 levels outside ILR, your average party ECL will go up more but you'll also be able to deal with stronger monsters to compensate. But after this correction, the 30% XP penalty is added to make it less profitable than ILR again.
If that's what you were even commenting on!
_________________
On Joon, Kjetta wrote:
The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Another thing I'd like to throw into the conversation.
I made a secondary character about a week ago almost purely for RP. He's been going out, doing some hunting, and getting some great RP, however, because he's primarily RP, people who he began RPing with are now escaping his ECL range. Now of course he also goes out and makes new friends, and still will RP with those others, but it's always a shame to lose half the time you could be RPing with another character simply because of an OOC reason.
Another thing I'd like to throw into the conversation.
I made a secondary character about a week ago almost purely for RP. He's been going out, doing some hunting, and getting some great RP, however, because he's primarily RP, people who he began RPing with are now escaping his ECL range. Now of course he also goes out and makes new friends, and still will RP with those others, but it's always a shame to lose half the time you could be RPing with another character simply because of an OOC reason.
It has been mentioned before and I will emphasize it now:
Being out of level range does not mean you have to loose your RP friends. I know it can seem like that at times, I have had several characters fall out of range, catch up, fall again, but ultimately you are only loosing the hunting aspect. Even then, you can hunt still, you just only get loot and gold, no experience. It's kind of a two-way street. You do and do not loose on RP. Being out of range can make it dull because you are less powerful than your friends, but if your character is fine with that sort of thing then it's not a huge RP killer.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
True, very true, but I was raising that as a general point, and the point is, it happens. If you need to level for whatever reason (cough gaining rank in drow society, cough) then what? Choose between RP or hunting? If in doubt, I go with RP, but I (and others) would rather have both if posible.
True, very true, but I was raising that as a general point, and the point is, it happens. If you need to level for whatever reason (cough gaining rank in drow society, cough) then what? Choose between RP or hunting? If in doubt, I go with RP, but I (and others) would rather have both if posible.
This is exactly what I was going to say. Giving people as many options as possible to keep their RP going is good.
_________________ You dare mock the Tibbly one, catcherer of drowses?
True, very true, but I was raising that as a general point, and the point is, it happens. If you need to level for whatever reason (cough gaining rank in drow society, cough) then what? Choose between RP or hunting? If in doubt, I go with RP, but I (and others) would rather have both if posible.
This is exactly what I was going to say. Giving people as many options as possible to keep their RP going is good.
I agree with this completely.
I just want to clarify that I do believe this will allow for RP without the restriction of level ranges. You can do that now, just you learn nothing, however with the range removed or expanded you gain greater ability to, for example, have a higher-up drow person bring a lower-level person out on a training expedition.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Well you can maintain strong in-character ties if both players make an effort. Where there is an in-character hierarchy you can easily justify spending time with different characters.
"This is your new charge. Don't traumatise them too much."
(later)
"I'm so sick of [the new guy]. They're constantly blundering into trouble. I feel like a babysitter."
"Now you know how I felt when you were just a new trainee."
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) and so I'd like to move it on up for discussion topside if there's nothing "new" by tonight.
This makes it more dangerous and less profitable for those involved.
