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Dead wrote:

2. There is nothing wrong with boss soloing. And there would be everything wrong with 100% epic loot chance.

Absolutely correct.

Dead wrote:

3. Actually compared to the past few years on Amia, we have fewer factions than ever.

Yet again true, I'd like to add that the number of possible Deities is all right. I'd hate to see some deities scratched off the list just because there is too many of them. It is a nonsense, each and every deity has it's own magic and it is up to the player to decide. And on a side note, almost every deity is in a connection with other deities. Except for the few, sociophatic ones, and in case a PC follows such deities it'd hardly be a friendly chap to chat around with anyway.

Murex wrote:

The problems I see-
1. Too many maps, and not enough focus on particular areas.
2. Epic Loot and Solo Bosshunting.
3. Too many factions, and too many gods to isolate individuals because of religion.
4. Too many NPCs- Not being able to really do things when an NPC is in the area.

Just to throw some DM input on these points -

1. We are analyzing this actively right now and are already in discussions on how to address it.

2. For anyone who was able to join Glim on the Phane event, bosses in the future (barring Glim's sanity) will likely be created as more complicated encounters rather then "tank and spank". For those of you who were not able to make it into the fight, Phane is much more a MMO style encounter where you have to think on your feet during the fight. (I will be posting a video of that encounter and the adventure leading up to it this week, so look for it soon!)

3. What Dead said. We're actually much slimmer on the faction side then in the past. As for a decrease in deities, it's not going to happen as we are a FR system and will continue to use their Lore as a backdrop.

4. The NPCs are meant to illustrate a presence. In the case of Cordor, you're in a 'metropolis' of sorts and the NPCs are meant to illustrate just that. There are plenty of places in Cordor (just for example) that are not within line of sight of any NPCs.

It was already suggested, but contact a DM, through a PM if necessary, what you'd like to do and a DM will get back with you. If you just make assumptions on the spot, you are in danger of meta'ing the guards and I would advise against it, if for no other reason to avoid the drama.

In the end, we the DMs, are here to facilitate your actions, not get in the way. So just because you have a nefarious idea, don't assume we would not facilitate your attempts. That said, we're not here to cater to your actions, so expect the world to react realistically in response.

Grymia wrote:

Murex wrote:

The problems I see-

Cordor would be fun again if wands worked, and the Cordor Underground was accessible. I suppose that is all up to the players, but I doubt anyone will make an attempt anytime soon.

Regarding Cordor I have a simple if perhaps slightly blunt point:

Earn the access back . Work with Yossarin (and the other DMs but Yossi's the primary Cordor contact AFAIK) , RP, and do what you have to do to earn every inch. Cordor's not an easy City to deal with but if you put the time and effort in, you can make things happen.

What happened in COrdor did not just happen for @#*$s and Giggles. It happened for a reason. Create a reason for the change.

I can not +1 enough on Grymia's response to this. Amia, dispite what you might think, is Very much player driven. There are plots that, left untended, will have consequences. This is our way of saying "get off your duff and do something about it."

If you don't know how, start by asking questions. Don't just assume it's someone else's problem or it will never get done!

I'm going to go out on a limb here and bring up something Yoss said in regards to "Amia-allstars". This is the source, in my opinion, of this phenomena. Those players who motivate, do and solve due to their own initiative, earn the stigmas of being favorites. When in actuality, they give the DMs something to work with. This is a generalization and I realize there may be extenuating circumstances; players that are afflicted due to a plot line for example. The fact remains, many of these players are proactive.

If you're new to the server or just want to learn more about how to be proactive or others' strategies, ask some folks OOC'ly from Tarkuul, Barak Runedar, Kohlingen... These guys have a lot of momentum right now that is all player driven.

I know no one has implied this, but I'll say it anyway, do not expect to be spoon fed.

Cheers!

There's nothing wrong with having vast numners of deity choices. Characters with different deity fields can still get along with each other on other grounds - Many characters will have similiar views by virtue of their Race or Alignment - but having different beliefs gives them something to make things interesting, even amongst friends and colleagues. Amia would be pretty shit if everyone agreed with each other.

There are very few entries you can write in your deity field that will truly isolate a character.

Fabian wrote:

If you're new to the server or just want to learn more about how to be proactive or others' strategies, ask some folks OOC'ly from Tarkuul, Barak Runedar, Kohlingen... These guys have a lot of momentum right now that is all player driven.

+1

As far as getting back into Cordor from a ban; It might be an interesting idea to entertain, but honestly, I wouldn't get high hopes for it. It certainly was a massive waste of time in my experience.

Can we not shoot things down like that? It creates a negative mindset, especially if someone is new and they read that sort of thing they might figure it's not worth the time to bother with anything.

I'm saying that in regards to anything, really.

She ain't being negative, it's her experience that's negative.
And there's only one way to fix that.

The phrasing actually carries a negative connotation. It could have just been simply said as 'in my experience it didn't come to anything.' I have no idea why it didn't work, no one does by the people involved, but how it was written can be read as 'don't bother trying, you are wasting your time trying to get back into Cordor.'

Course that could just be me, but whatevz.

edit: The only reason I brought it up is because we are trying to keep and bring in players, and when someone reads something like that it creates a mindset that it is not worth the effort toe try and change something.

Dead wrote:

And there's only one way to fix that.

Also, I completely agree with this.

Dead wrote:

And there's only one morally acceptable way to fix that.

Fixed. To think, a Tarkuulian should know better.

But, I get what Needled means, and agree with it in some ways, although my reasoning for no doubt, entirely different reasons.

In the end, Cordor is just another human crap-pool full of corruption and stuff. Plenty of cities like that on the mainland.

If a player wants to get involved in the greater scheme of things, or whatever the hell is going on, you can always hang out around Kohlingen, Tarkuul or hell, even elf-land.

Well, you see, I know why it didn't work. It's because people are far too happy with their precious microcosm to change the norm. Yes, my character for example was a Banite before.

My character was banned for being a Banite, and tried to be unbanned for over one year (of what I'd consider a bit of an active effort) while offering many routes or engaging roleplay threads for others to run with. However, all of them had no hooks. So, yes, in my estimation, I think that it's probably a waste of time, depending on why you got banned in the first place.

Maybe if you did petty theft, or something, you can pull yourself out of the ditch, but when you get banned for something serious and try to fix it, sometimes you just need to assess and figure out the severity to know when it's pointless. Like Neveah said in other posts, her character is vigilant to protect against repeat occurrences of crime or infractions. (hope I'm not misquoting.) There's nothing wrong with that type of persistence either, I perfectly understand it even if I do not agree with it. However, I made that mistake myself, like I said, and it did seem like rotten fruit in the end, but I didn't know what I was expecting. I just figured I'd pass on my experience so someone else doesn't get dissapointed similarly.

So yes, my post(s) might come off as slightly negative, but I am not angry, upset, or annoyed, and I hope noone takes it the wrong way. It's food for thought, basically.

Needled247 wrote:

So yes, my post(s) might come off as slightly negative, but I am not angry, upset, or annoyed, and I hope noone takes it the wrong way. It's food for thought, basically.

To be honest I didn't think you were, I only said something because I don't want to see people discouraged from trying. Because if you get apathetic about one thing, you are likely to become apathetic towards changing anything. It was just the tone, really, though it was unintended.

That said, what you said is unfortunate to hear and honestly makes a sad :/

A sneak preview of the new upcoming dungeon: The Gibbering Maw

I think, like all RP endeavors, the attempt at getting unbanned is a waste of time only if you determine "waste of time" as "not succeeding in your goal". Yeah, a Baneite probably isn't going to get easily unbanned. Esp someone who was an active Baneite. But as long as there was RP that happened in the meantime then it's all good in my book.

Realistically though, this is a case of IC actions have IC repercussions.

People and characters (who are virtual people) are going to make assumptions based on race and religion. Being an overt worshiper of the god of Hatred, Tyrrany, War, Destruction and Evil is probably not going to bode well for getting the folks who follow the Triad or other Good aligned deities to hand wave over past crimes. Esp. since in recent memory (2010) the Banites as a whole were gleefully murdering anyone associated with a tree.

But as long as you got RP out of it, even if it wasn't with the "good folks of Cordor" then it's still a win in my book. You can even use the lack of meeting your goal as an opportunity to create more RP with other groups.

Dominik's been harassed in Cordor for being a "Meddling Mystrian" based on his robe color. (Amusingly Dominik's an Azuthian) He was threatened, at one point, with being shipped out of the city in a box. But that turned into some rather amusing RP elsewhere that was totally worth being on the outs with a single faction.

Long and short of it, anything can become a reason for RP. Don't go in expecting to "win" your objectives. RP doesn't work like that. Not all stories have happy endings. Some are even abjectly filled with pathos. As long as there's a story out of it… who cares, you've "won."

Murex wrote:

The problems I see-
1. Too many maps, and not enough focus on particular areas.
2. Epic Loot and Solo Bosshunting.
3. Too many factions, and too many gods to isolate individuals because of religion.
4. Too many NPCs- Not being able to really do things when an NPC is in the area.

1. I have been saying that for some time, we got a ton of dead areas on B-mia.

2. without that Boss-mia would lose 50% or more of the people who go there, its more or less the high end leveling and epic loot server given it houses 7 of the 10 bosses?

3. very little anyone can do about the amount of gods, as for the factions thats up to the players.

4.NPCs are fine, they really only stop people from being stupid because it makes you request DM oversight.

Oh I don't expect to win, nor was that the bulk of my complaint. I was expecting some RP however. That's what I meant above (if it was not clear).

In my time in amia i have had to deal with some serious adversity towards my character and me. Such displayed towards my character was founded in most cases for his background as a red wizard and the history of amia did see to my constant uphill battle. However the RP was enjoyable it was fun and it maid the achievements all the more worth the effort.

Having said that, it is of my opinion that staff can be a little to harsh, and a little to particular when it comes to RP, i personally have felt that for a long time that the goodly factions of amia have had a massive advantage. The advantage could be called favoritism i suppose but reality it was simply that the good factions had more DM connections and more experienced players who had better relationships with DM.

I don't think how friendlily you are with a DM or how easy you are to talk to should have anything to do with your RP. I have seen some of the "all-stars" get request sorted & RP approval far quicker than others. This is party due to these relationships, but also that the all'star has learned how to "React" and "Act" when dealing with certain staff. Its not intentional favoritism its a outcome of years of development and experience that makes things appear this way to everyone who is outside the circle.

I have seen far to many characters leave and factions fall in my time in amia to see that sometimes people just get ignored, not intentionally perhaps but because they just don't have the experience in dealing with the staff on Amia to get noticed. And the fact that they are not known adds to such. Everyone should be on equal footing if the character can do it and they do the rp they should be able to impact the world around them alone or with a faction.

I would just like to see all players that put the effort in, screen shot there RP work with dm actually get to have an impact in game, change the world in whatever way they desired to. so long as such is within the lore and rules of the server.

I think there has been some change in this area, however i still see that constant perception that those "dedicated" players get rewarded, when its hard to discern from the limited time a player can interact with a DM if they are dedicated or not, if they put in the effort or not. One cant make snap judgments about a players worth especially when they cant interact with them enough to be readily informed of a player or characters inherent quality or worth.

Everyone should be considered a good player, a excellent RP. It is only when they betray this that they should be punished, and the punishment to correct the issue but however from what i have seen these punishments for bad RP or outburst last a lifetime, and sometimes dm perceptions of players become self fulfilling prophecy's.

We dont want to WIN, or Get it all, we want to try and we want to be allowed accepted and heard in our attempts to do so without prejudice or neglect.

+1 To all that Talia said, and the eloquence with which it was made.

I'm in agreement with 90% of what Talia said myself. I will only add that over the past few weeks I have noticed a change in DM behaviour, select DM's, no names mentioned, appear to be more friendly than others.

But the point of people having to prove themselves before warranting attention from other players, or even DM's, is true. Although it can be dealt with ICly too. I find myself mostly basing my characters perceptions of people based on the reputation in which they have made for themselves.

All actions have consiquences. Joining the Banites and killing people will obviously have massive negative social consiquences, for example. Think of it this way. If there was any sense of realism, you would've been decapitated by Cordor, instead of Banished, probably. But that is not to say that it doesn't help with the RP at all. Some realism must be sacrificed in order to attain enjoyment and entertainment, in my opinion.

TaliaZalinNalla wrote:

I have seen far to many characters leave and factions fall in my time in amia to see that sometimes people just get ignored, not intentionally perhaps but because they just don't have the experience in dealing with the staff on Amia to get noticed. And the fact that they are not known adds to such. Everyone should be on equal footing if the character can do it and they do the rp they should be able to impact the world around them alone or with a faction.

There's a feedback loop involved with this dynamic; getting noticed means you have more of an 'effect,' which then creates greater incentives to do things, which get noticed, and then have more of an 'effect,' and so on. It's easy to get discouraged if you play a character to the bone and don't get any traction. If DM's are saying players need to take more initiative, fair enough, but then equally, there needs to be more traction given to players who are trying something. The narrative can bend a bit to accommodate them, and thus include them, and thus give players a really real incentive to keep playing.

Be that as it may, I still think that if Cordor is going to entertain creatures who are bloodbound to do chaotic, evil things, it's rather humorous that a Banite is banned for being a Banite once and doing nothing wrong in Cordor. As far as "killing spree.. and killing people." I don't know really, what to say, other than, yes, I did defend my character alot.

Alot of characters tried to attack me at some point. Those, who did not, didn't usually have any problems. I can't remember that many times where my character actually cared to attack first. She/I had nothing to prove. I'd often go some place public to RP with someone, and someone who's LG would try to murder me occasionally and fail. This was all a rather long time ago but I still do see LG characters thrive of killing people. The idea just doesn't make sense. To walk around and goad people into a fight due to their religion or ideas who weren't otherwise hostile? that's chaos.

That's just how I saw it through my looking glass though. Of course, evidently, alot of players didn't see that way-- infact alot of players took defeats and even the presence OOC. Which, to some extent is why Banites are so demonized, meanwhile evil races prance around on the streets. It's rather ass backwards in my opinion, but it always has been, and probably will be. Open evil! You cry. I say, who, me? Or the paladin?

Samantha gave Audrey quite a few hooks and they're actually still dangling out there, if Audrey cares to look.

Why are we talking about a characters reputation OOC'ly? ><

Careful about lumping Cordor's rationale into that lame paladin bracket. The Banite faction stuck Cordorian citizen heads on pikes outside the gate with an open declaration of war on the city. The Banite Church has never officially rescinded this proclamation, produced recompense for the damages, brought to justice the individual culprit of the mirders to face execution or openly submitted to the "supreme law" of the Commonwealth. Does it sound like they are puffing themselves up in light of a minor snafu a long time ago? Oh yes indeed. Do any Banites possess the necessary diplomatic skills to navigate better terms? One did, and I was delighted to discover he wasn't even a real Banite but in essence worked to screw them over even further. Those who sat in prison for a few days did the equivalent of, "Here we are, what are you going to do now?" I was told in no uncertain terms that providing the roleplay to proceed with the execution would destroy their faction utterly, both from leaders in the faction and my own DM team. So I quickls ejected them for being lame enough to try to intimidate me OOC with threats of destroying the server and shortly thereafter you saw the serious mode thread.

The terrible irony is that I had no actual plans to execute the majority of the faction. I was going to let them plead for mercy or exercise what capital they had to negotiate better terms, but the faction moved so immediately to the OOC that it was no longer an option. One person, possibly Needled, made a half-assed attempt to do something, but you do not send a letter to a head of state demanding an audience to negotiate terms without outlining those terms in the letter. It is like me sending my governor a letter saying, I want to meet with you to talk about tax breaks. I will be at the Baskin Robbins. Be there or be square! Only even worse since meeting with you is a security risk!

Which imo is where Needled shone, bc she provided me with a good IC reason to do what my aem was being twisted to do OOC. She to my memory saw the degree to which a Banite strength, intimidation, could be utilized. Yes, folks, technically Audrey intimidated the faction out of jail. It was a telling moment, and one dor which they should be cheered.

But long story short, the balancing act DMs have to accomplish involves more details and complexity and difficulty than you are aware, and trying to whittle it down to as Needled and Talia have to, "What is wrong with you, DMs, why can you not perform these simple tasks?" is ignorant of the reality (and also part of why we are very picky about DMs because we look for signs that they can both see and manage these things). But we are trying, and claiming your perceived mistakes of the past as "the norm" does not spare anyone wasted effort, it just guarantees they will make no effort at all.

Unfortunately, I often don't have the most brilliant ideas, I admit. I think things through in my head logically, and not beyond that; the reason I never became a writer, or a lawyer, if you will. In that situation, it was only after it was all over, that I learned that there was a 'chance' to be had, if someone had just said "x" in a sentence format. That type of option of story catch often won't ever work with me. I can't read minds. But that's okay. I don't remember complaining about anything other than the fact that the aforementioned situation was largely a massive metagaming mishap which destroyed 5 months of my RP for that faction. Unfortunately, the module changes can only happen so fast, and the area that was discovered unlocked was ICly locked approximately 1.5 months prior, and was waiting for the developers to change it. Ironically, right after the episode, the locks were added, and my character who made the locks still doesn't have the key(s). It was as if the whole thing had never happened at all. I get that some people do things behind the scenes and this and that -- but what about the people that actually tried, and did stuff there?

Largely though, I realize that my character isn't very diplomatic. But I also think that in a world where you have someone who's rather powerful, (as you claimed they perceived it, though I have my doubts, after certain events where infinite NPC's spawn to destroy something), one would think that not NPC's, but maybe PC's of the faction would take advantage of trying to roleplay something to the effect of a cease fire, or general understanding. Even the most undiplomatic leaders the world has ever seen come to the table and make offers. Maybe the faction which at one point, boasted approximately 45 active wasn't powerful enough, but I scarcely think that's the case, given what you implied about the intimidation.

I am not blaming the DM's for my character's failure, as I have noted above. In fact, I don't even think the DM's needed to be involved. The only thing I'm bringing up is that perhaps some of the player's mindsets might be faulty with who's really the villain, how they get treated (by new and old characters alike) and what their role and future is. As it stands right now, my character remains banned from every non-evil accepting establishment, and likely will continue to be until the end of time. In my eyes, it's an IC problem that has an OOC wall preventing it from moving, due to the long-standing anti-Banite stigma which largely was engrossed far out of proportion.

I would think that someone trying to uphold society's values would go through other methods, exhausting them before ultimately deciding to kill someone. That's stooping to "their" level. Something interesting to think about -- considering my character often /never/ swung first. But at the end of the day, if a knight tries to murder you, and fails, you're the murder --they're the hero. That's what I've learned. Inpenetrable IC stigma, surely; tried, tested, refuted, and true.

Quote:

Samantha gave Audrey quite a few hooks and they're actually still dangling out there, if Audrey cares to look.

Audrey took her up on her offer! But well, I think you stopped playing (for a very understandable reason) and that was the end of that!

A bit tangental, but it's something that I've been thinking about for some time now, and wondering if anyone has some insight. Most players are reasonable and enjoy a sense of conflict and are generally good sports about having darker characters about, even if their -characters- would naturally work against them. That's all well and natural. For a long time, however I've noticed there is a small population of players that take the natural, IC agenda of fighting evil to an OOC extreme. These players, out of character, legitimately want to see the server clean of evil characters and devoid of conflict. They go to any lengths to accomplish this, make alts to have hands in every "cookie jar", and get honestly upset at any conflict or even the existence of a dark character or even NPC nearby. They genuinely want to RP in a utopic setting of rainbows and unicorns, and believe the heroes should -always- win.

It was actually something I saw -more- of when I devoted a lot of time to Talyne. People would often banter OOC about how to "get those bastards", as though the players of the evil characters were evil themselves, and should be banned and punished for being horrible people. As someone who enjoys cloak and dagger style intrigue, this made me very uncomfortable. Without conflict, there is no story, and I can't imagine this attitude is healthy for the server. OOC, I really don't like upsetting people, and it's always a terrible feeling when people, in their heart of hearts, don't want anything to do with you because you've devoted yourself to "team evil" as though it's a reflection of your morals in person. I'm a fairly sensitive guy, so when people I might come up against completely demolish the boundaries between player and character, I find it difficult not to do the same, and as a result I'm formed to be much more "tame" than Luca might strictly be if I was completely true to character. I -know- that I'm -supposed- to just put on blinders and ignore the protests and whining when you're playing an evil toon, and stay true to character and let the DMs sort out the drama, but it's still something I struggle with, considering how -alien- I find the desire to have a conflict-free server.

I can't image I'm the only one that feels this way, so I imagine a lot of potentially interesting evil RP is squashed by the vocal minority. Any competent player wouldn't want to upset someone, so that leaves only the callous jerks that are there only for the PvP, and thus starts a viscous cycle of the only evil on the server being...retarded. Granted, this has gotten much, much better in recent times, but I feel the undercurrents are still present. Figure out some way to address it, and you might see a more even balance in the good vs. evil server balance. HOW to address it, though...I've no idea. I've played on many, many servers and Amia has so far been completely unique in how emotionally intimidating it is to devote to a non-good character.

Not very tangential at all, it applies directly to the point I'm trying to make. It's the reason, for a long time, as a player I've been unmotivated and largely see absolutely zero serious conflict on Amia. No player driven conflicts. No big wars. Just small hidden "attacks" and things with no followup RP that makes people want to log on. Part of what made Amia fun for me was by part, leading--and sharing leadership with other fantastic RP'ers in what I thought was a rather interesting struggle for good and evil on Amia. Once, as you said, I realized, after a while that having tells being spammed to me by whiny players who cry after losing a fight they instigated, and being in one of those parties myself where it doesn't seem so much IC as it does OOC hatred, I realized that perhaps Amia, and unfortunately, the DM's at the time, were not ready to have evil, and by in large - conflict.

I just would like to say that I am happy to see things being discussed so civilly when they could be taken to angry extremes by upset people. That's not me pointing a finger at anyone going 'Oh, you normally would be all RARGH!', I just like seeing civil conversation about potentially sensitive subjects.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

A bit tangental, but it's something that I've been thinking about for some time now, and wondering if anyone has some insight. Most players are reasonable and enjoy a sense of conflict and are generally good sports about having darker characters about, even if their -characters- would naturally work against them. That's all well and natural. For a long time, however I've noticed there is a small population of players that take the natural, IC agenda of fighting evil to an OOC extreme. These players, out of character, legitimately want to see the server clean of evil characters and devoid of conflict. They go to any lengths to accomplish this, make alts to have hands in every "cookie jar", and get honestly upset at any conflict or even the existence of a dark character or even NPC nearby. They genuinely want to RP in a utopic setting of rainbows and unicorns, and believe the heroes should -always- win.

This makes me all

Beyond that, what you've said is wholly true, and the reason I think the server started to stagnate last year (maybe a bit earlier) is because Evil started to die off for one reason or another. That is why I started my Evil Character and continue to (even though they are not IG at all) plot and plan in my head. It's quite complex so far ._.

It's not squashed at all, Needled! Samantha is back around anyway and so are the opportunities that were presented. They even existed while she was gone-- it doesn't take mind-reading, just some Darby-like prying and spying!

I've quite a number of alts, and I suppose some could say that I'm dipping my fingers into every cookie jar. But I do this because I enjoy roleplaying with everyone, and sometimes my characters just wouldn't get involved with others. I don't do it to win, and I would imagine that I'm not alone. To be fair, no one was saying that everyone who makes alts is trying to abuse the situation, I'm just putting food for thought out there, or a perspective from someone diagnosed with altitis.

I think another reason I like to bounce back and forth between evil and good with alts is to avoid being classified as a "Team Evil" or "Team Good" player, due to similar concerns as NinjaClarinet.

I think both "Team Good" and "Team Evil" should do what they can to try to foster that greatly sought after Nemesis Rp. It's not so much as one side winning and one side losing, as both teams winning by emotional conflict Rp shared between the two. I'm a big advocate for a change of mentality in regards to conflict. And I think now that people are migrated toward Alignment-based hubs, rather than fighting in open squabble in the territories in-between, the new conflict may end up holding more meaning. Take, for example, the Tarkuul crew arriving in Kohlingen. No punches were thrown, but juicy tension was there. I suppose I just like to be hopeful.

Naivatkal wrote:

I just would like to say that I am happy to see things being discussed so civilly when they could be taken to angry extremes by upset people. That's not me pointing a finger at anyone going 'Oh, you normally would be all RARGH!', I just like seeing civil conversation about potentially sensitive subjects.

Well, we're all on the same side here. There isn't any need to get upset.

And I will agree that such a core of players as described above does exist. I like to think that eventually they will feel the pressure of screws turning in them.

Yossarin wrote:

Well, we're all on the same side here. There isn't any need to get upset.

Definitely. It's just that people being human have the ability to get uppity about certain things haha. So it's always cool to see things being talked about in a sane fashion.

I keep hearing about this banite in cordor thing in a lot of different places, usually perpetuated by the same people;

Now, I'm under the assumption that just about everyone knows that Banites are evil and out to do evil things. However, red dragonkin are -also- evil and out to do evil things, and people think they should be equally treated. That may be the case, but I think it's important to remember that if you're going to try and get immersed in the setting that Cordor IS run by humans, or at least humanoid characters-- perfect reason doesn't usually sit with anyone unless they're touting a massive wisdom score and happen to have that as part of their character. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the uppity class in cordor was Lawful Evil itself, and out to protect its interests by letting certain things slide where others do not. Picture real life politics and cities.

I have a Blackguard of Orcus that I bring out to play now and then who acts more or less neutral around the company of others. She does, however, have plans that don't involve toppling _____ or creating chaos-- she's not a demon, she's more concerned with her afterlife. On that note, she also hunts the blackguards of other Deities in order to downplay their presence of the island. Soul's a soul, and Orcus doesn't like competition.

Is she evil? You bet. Will she get kicked out of cordor? Probably not by her own doing. Also, why would a Banite doing blatantly evil things even WANT forgiveness and re-entrance back into Cordor if not for doing progressing their godfearing portfolio? Going somewhere else is an option, and you can always try more colaboratively forceful measures with great risk.

Ok, first of all, not all Banites have to be evil, and furthermore even if they are, they don't always need to be out doing something evil.

Red dragons by nature, feel inclined to do evil, AFAIK. It's just in their blood, sitting there.

And finally, I'm sure you've heard of the term "redemption." With that mentality, we shouldn't build jails, we should just kill everyone who commits crimes.

The most celebrated are the rehabilitated.

Yossarin wrote:

But long story short, the balancing act DMs have to accomplish involves more details and complexity and difficulty than you are aware, and trying to whittle it down to as Needled and Talia have to, "What is wrong with you, DMs, why can you not perform these simple tasks?" is ignorant of the reality (and also part of why we are very picky about DMs because we look for signs that they can both see and manage these things). But we are trying, and claiming your perceived mistakes of the past as "the norm" does not spare anyone wasted effort, it just guarantees they will make no effort at all.

Id like to clarify that i was only trying to give a perspective not boil it down to anything such as "whats wrong with you, Dms, why can you not perform these simple tasks" i assume your failure to make a grammatical sentence was a poke at me. But i seek not to return flame, i just want to point out that this is how i see it any many others see it.

I in no way think it is a simple thing to resolve, i know that there is a number of split views held by the staff, and that there are politics i suppose that must be adhered to to stop the system from failing entirely. However it should be addressed and perhaps advising the public what is being done to address these kind of issues would go a long way to help easy our minds and allow us to become actively involved in the change that is supposedly taking place.

What is being done to resolve the age old "favoritism" (i already explained i don't mean it in its simple sense)

What can be done to give all players a fair playing field and remove personal opinions from the equation ?

You say the staff was humbled, i don't see much evidence to support such a statement other than a large post pointing out all the things you believe are wrong from what people have told you and other dms. One needs to understand that not everyone talks to the staff, many are afraid to even state how they feel for fear of the "unintended" reputations & reputations that i have had to deal with my entire time playing hear. People want to know they can make suggestions they can make request and play and be part of the world without fear of being brow beat told they are stupid maid fun of or generally ignored.

Yes Yossarin even those people you "think" are stupid.

So what is being done ?

Well I just wanted to add, I know we all get frustrated, myself included. But any constructive criticism given is not out of a sense of hate or wrath towards dm's. If anything its a compliment to the server, that we are all so eager to be here and -want- to be a part of the story. I have to agree with the poster above that constructive, eloquently put suggestions often seem to be taken personally. I think its important to remember that we all come here to have fun, and that part of that "Fun" you funginners create should be for everyone.

Nope, the typo was because I made it from mobile and did not check.

I'm not a big fan of conflict RP. I haven't gone out of my way to stop it or anything, however I've never felt like I had much in common with either side.

As shocking as it may be to hear, all I ever wanted was to party with a regular group of adventurers, come home a bit worse for wear but with a few trinkets to show for it, and have a drink at an inn, laughing about our latest adventure. I mean there's Skyrim and all for my PvE fix, but Lydia is a really poor conversationalist.

I'm game for some more light-hearted adventuring. Let the serious lads save the world!

That said, being involved in fairly large plots is also appealing to me, but time-consuming. When everyone in the main timezones has gone to bed and I want to load up my listless, relatively-carefree lowbie there isn't anyone to adventure with, sadly.

Also, regarding deities: I didn't wanna say it earlier because it could segue into good vs evil, but... well, the reality of the setting is that in terms of player-friendlyness, good deities and evil deities aren't equal. Almost all good deities get along with the others, especially the popular ones. Evil deities... you'll be lucky to have allies but worse than that you're bound to have dire enemies among other evil gods (see: Shar, who has horribad PR even with followers of supposedly allied gods). So the fact that you're probably the only one to worship god x hurts evil characters more. But that's just the reality of the setting - you kind of need to transcend it because if you fix it it stops being FR.

In reference to what i have been talking about perhaps this is something that could be considered as a framework or means of anything of the changes are being effective.

Quote:

(Participatory action research)PAR seeks to understand and improve the world by changing it. At its heart is collective, self reflective inquiry that researchers and participants undertake, so they can understand and improve upon the practices in which they participate and the situations in which they find themselves. The reflective process is directly linked to action, influenced by understanding of history, culture, and local context and embedded in social relationships. The process of PAR should be empowering and lead to people having increased control over their lives (adapted from Minkler and Wallerstein5 and Grbich6).

Its primarily used by psychologist in community settings to assess if the changes and projects are having the impact desired. Although the paper i am linking relates to health sector applications i am certain a number of good journals and plans could be found to create something that would better suite amaias needs during these changes and transitions. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566051/)

It think if we extract from this and other forums using a "pseudo" thematic analysis of the underling themes and subthems as well as other data collected in the past ( http://avetra.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Thematic-analysis.pdf ).

Quote:

Thematic Analysis is an approach to dealing with data that involves the creation and application of ‘codes’ to data. ‘Coding’ refers to the creation of categories in relation to data; the grouping together of different instances of datum under an umbrella term that can enable them to be regarded as ‘of the same type’.It is important to write down the definitions of codes when you create them and to be sure that you are applying the codes in the same way every time you use them. Essentially you are able to gain a full or combined understanding of many opinions or from many sources of information

These could then be filtered down into area that require assistance and then each one have their own thread, each thread then give options that the staff has discussed and allow the community to comment and suggest there preference. The process is then repeated until we distill the essence then the changes are maid. Following the changes the thread are locked and new threads opened that allow the community to comment using PAR system to analysis if the implementation of various changes has had a positive or intended effect.

Sounds like a lot of work but its not really, its just a more specific and fine tuned way of "sorting" through the opinions and coming to a agreed standard of change with community involvement along the way to promote solidity and understanding within it. I would be happy to help with this having been trained in these forms of research and others.

p.s id just like to add that with thematic doing its validity/creditably can be improved by "joint" people doing the work as in we put together all the data to be analyses and more than one person works through the information till joint themes are decided upon as the different in perspectives can really help to give a better view point and a more true direction for change.

Yes, FR has the deities it has and there isn't any way around that. I debated making a post similar to the Alt-itis one wherein I try to pinpoint the actual problem you are getting at with factions and how individual players can make some personal changes to produce something better for themselves and others, but I am not sure it will carry the same resonance. My constant worry is about getting preachy and seeming like I am telling you what you shouls amd should not do, so to avoid stepping on the long toes around here I just let you reap what you sow.for.the most part.

So then let me turn it around. What changes do you folks feel you could make on an individual level to get factions interacting more and hiding less?

The 'allied evil' idea that has been attempted at least twice in the past seemed to work for the most part (although some would disagree). Evil characters don't get along with each other as well as goodies do, but it's better than staying alone and isolated in my opinion.

Honestly, I think there is nothing that can make players gravitate to factions more. We all know by now that more factions isn't the answer, but still there will always be particuliar religions that will go unrecognized and faction-less. Players will have to make characters that can fit into pre-existing factions in order for there to be more faction rp.

Uhh...maybe some sort of cyclical incentive for particuliar religions? A magical artifact does some strange chaotic stuff and gives some kind of boon to various alignments or worshipers of god x or something? Sort of a shot in the dark there, but it's all I can really come up with to make the faction thing more desireable. It's probably not the best idea considering that it will constantly unbalance things.

Yeah, not only would that be unbalancing, it would be a bit too transparent and gamey and very unrewarding to players who think outside the box. Moreso, though, it is something DM initiated and we are fishing for things players can do in order to fight the culture they cultivated and now have some regrets about (in a way, this is what all discussions about Amian economy feel like for me).

Well, I'm all for something different, even if it is probably not the best idea. Sometimes constant change is better than nothing, and any change made doesn't need to be permanent. No reward without risk, but its best to think before you leap. I don't really know what I'm saying here, so I'll be quiet now.

If I'm reading Murex's concerns right:

Being in a faction isn't the be-all, end-all for finding RP. I think that's a misconception. Sure it's easier to find RP when the faction is active, but so is finding RP in the hubs when they are active.

The closest thing to a faction I've been in is the council of Winya Ravana and I've never had too much trouble finding RP. As for obscure religions, it's true that certain faiths will make you more socially outcast than others, but that's a choice you should consider in character creation. Can you deal with being surrounded by relatively fewer people than the next guy? If not, and you still want to play a follower of an obscure god, choose one of the lesser picked racial gods (Labelas or Fenmarel for elves, Urogalan for halflings, Vergadain or Sharindlar for dwarves, every gnome god since there's only two gnomes on the server that I know of), Milil, Lurue, Lliira, Istishia, Grumbar...those are all gods that aren't chosen very often but would fit in around various other factions/groups.

What can I do to get factions interacting more and hiding less... I'll try to make a coherent post out of this, but I have a lot of disparate ideas bouncing around my head right now. Let's go with dot points.

-Faction members need to try and be more open to non-members. Depending on the faction, a level of secrecy and distance is necessary, but that doesn't mean the characters can't be friendly and welcoming (if it's in their character to do so). Majority of players just want interaction.
-Prospective faction members should try to take initiative, make it easier for factions to throw out hooks. Put this with the previous point and it usually works out for everyone - the difficulty is often initiating. Factions don't want to bring in members who look like they won't care, prospective members don't want to be rejected. So factions need to be welcoming and to show an interest in an individual (which doubles for finding the shy ones who -will- stick around) and prospective members need to be ready to go for it.
-Both of the above points are kinda limited by equal parts player limitations (some of us are shy) and character limitations. I'm going to assume that we all know what we want, so the super shy people who can't break into factions don't want to and everyone else who does can at least push far enough to get in. I can't really tell people how to wrangle their own personalities.

-For that, faction members need to be accessible and visible. It's easy enough, especially if you've been cured of alt-itis and you don't mind occasionally parking yourself in the module and doing crosswords while you wait for someone to show up (I do this sometimes!). Running into a faction member is a "safe" way to get included using the above methods. A lot of people don't like using the forums - there's a stigma against OOC recruitment, and it often means putting yourself out there (thus, fear of rejection). Of course, this method is impeded by...
-Secret meetings. These need to happen less. I'm a bit guilty of this, because this is where "keeping secrets" starts to harm recruitment. But it does need to be done for the sake of actually getting somewhere. I'm not against rolling with the punches, but I will avoid every blow I can, that's just human nature I guess. But, not all secret meetings are even about business. Characters who form close relationships (of various kinds) are going to want time to talk privately, and that means cutting into "accessibility" time, even if you're visible. But you know, it's not -wrong- for your characters to have a life, to take a bit of a break from "recruitment". It feels like it to me of course because I'm a neurotic micro-manager. But still, the behaviours I've outlined are conducive to bringing more players into or towards any given faction. Doing it does help, provided you don't burn out in the process. But it's not a "must do this" thing.

That's all I got, and it's as coherent as I can muster. I am intentionally focused on a very small area which is particularly relevant to me, so I do recognise that there's a lot more to it.

Joon isn't really a member of any "faction" but he has no problem interacting with a wide variety of groups. This faction-oriented thinking is a bit artificial and very much game-like. Think about the real world: how many people actually belong to one single, all-encompassing faction with all their heart? Not many. You have your family. You have a circle of friends, or possibly several circles (from different stages of education, for example). You may be part of the role-playing club at your University, and you're part of the student organization for your faculty. You probably also have a job on the side, where you have a contractual relationship to your employer and social relationships to your coworkers. Maybe you even go to church, and especially in the States (or minority religions in Europe) it's very much a faction that determines your identity. And god forbid, you may have a political affiliation! But just because you go to church doesn't mean you quit your job, and it's quite likely someone at your job has different hobbies than you or votes for a different party.

Why should it be any different with factions? It's not their number that's a problem, it's how some people apparently let them direct their RP. (I say apparently because I've never experienced real issues with factions. But then again, I seem to be blind and don't experience most of the problems others tend to complain about.)

Well I don't know if you were responding to me or someone else Iron, but I didn't posit that faction membership required exclusivity or personal devotion. Though it really would depend on the faction I guess. My frame of reference is a fairly open faction, where you can have all the things you describe (families, friends, church, politics) and still be a part of it. Of course, for me it does kind of involve giving my all, hopefully because I'm staying true to my character's feelings but I could always second-guess myself about gaming it up I suppose.
Going all-in doesn't work for all faction members, but I do think for those who can, there are certain things they can keep in mind to help keep things active. I guess that was the point of my post?

I think it's a matter of personal preference though. A lot of people are inclined to group up, and to identify as a group. Just look at "clique" behaviour, there's a reason it keeps cropping up even when we know it's a bad thing. I'd like to think Factions are above the negative connotations associated with those, but I can't deny that it does show up. The problem being of course when it starts to get exclusive, keeping a status quo and making it hard for others to join in.

But anyway, yeah some people either don't like or don't care for being part of a group like that. Not that we can't think of these people as part of the faction, especially when they hang around so much that those on the inside consider them to be members anyway.

I think your second point about taking initiative is pretty important, serbiris. It is also another reason why I have held off from making a large post about how to approach that matter. Personally, I have no issues with finding reasons to roleplay with other people, even new people I don't know, when I play a character. But I do not know if that is just how I am hardwired, or if most people are just lazy or paranoid, or if they just don't have their minds wrapped around it in the way I do, and thus don't see things from my perspective.

I also think sometimes people lose their characters' individuality within the faction. It seems like when they interact with other people, there is some kind of oppressive weight that suggests they solely represent that faction instead of themselves. This is actually very true, tbh, because one person can have a major impact on an entire faction's reputation, and is also one of the many downsides to actually being in a faction.

The short and simple approach to a much larger post I would make is "be creative". Invent reasons to interact with other people and use the setting to your advantage. This principle can be applied on an individual level and on a factional level, too. If you swallow your pride and put some chinks in your ivory tower, it gives you a reason, a need, to come down from your lofty perch and interact with others. Even if you or your character don't like it, there is still the "must do what is necessary" approach.

Amia... what happens next? (cleaned)

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