AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I'm not opposed to a name change or bio change when one does an assassination. Just be aware you'll have to be kicked to do a name change.

I think one thing that would help would be to iron out a guideline for how to roleplay death/defeat, then include that with out general roleplay guide. The issue there is that people might not read it - I sure as hell haven't read the Roleplay guide.

One idea I've spoken to a few players about kind of a resurrection sickness a la WoW, that takes a PC out of being able to fight for several hours after losing in PvP. You're still able to roleplay, you can even fight if you want, but there's such a substantial debuff that you're pretty well fucked and unable to seriously retaliate if you're attacked again. It's not as harsh as permanent death, but with a sufficient enough length and bite, I think you can have some lasting consequences added in.

Lizzie wrote:

Needled247 wrote:

Why do you need to have revenge?

Myself? I don't, because I basically never get into PvP. I was using the first person rhetorically there. But asking why someone would want justice for being murdered is a little bit hollow, I think.

(Also... I'm not talking here about not being able to retaliate because the PvP was accomplished by a disguised assassin whose name and bio had been tweaked OOC in support of the attempt. That stuff, I agree would all be awesome. I'm talking here about not being able to retaliate because of arbitrarily enforced memory loss.)

Lizzie wrote:

Needled247 wrote:

Why do you need to have revenge?

Myself? I don't, because I basically never get into PvP. I was using the first person rhetorically there. But asking why someone would want justice for being murdered is a little bit hollow, I think.

They can still get justice. They just can't get it from the nametag over the player's head.

Needled247 wrote:

They can still get justice. They just can't get it from the nametag over the player's head.

I'm not talking about the name tag (see my post one up from yours). I'm talking about the arbitrary memory loss.

Lizzie wrote:

Needled247 wrote:

They can still get justice. They just can't get it from the nametag over the player's head.

I'm not talking about the name tag (see my post one up from yours). I'm talking about the arbitrary memory loss.

My answer kind of summarizes both questions in my view. You know that you died, but you don't know who did it. If someone resurrected you and told you you got stabbed, I think from there, you could potentially launch an official investigation? or do something interesting rather than defaulting to OH THIS PERSON STABBED me, then that player subsequently gets banned from every zone and you can rest happy without having ever done any RP or work to achieve that.

By the way, XP loss is not arbitrary. I already answered this. It happens 100% of the time, and 100% of the time, it takes your experiences and memory from you.

Needled247 wrote:

By the way, XP loss is not arbitrary. I already answered this. It happens 100% of the time, and 100% of the time, it takes your experiences and memory from you.

That's not in any rule, though. The rule says that the rezzed character mechanically loses XP, a number on a character sheet. It doesn't comment on how that might translate into IC memories. The best that can be said of it is that it's an adoption of a PnP house rule, and PnP rules all require the consent of all the parties involved. You can't mandate it.

It is also very inconsistent. It means that a wizard who cast a high level spell or crafts a simple magical item suddenly forgets what he was casting/crafting and possibly even why.

Well, if you apply logic to a hierarchy XP level tree, the most recent and later memory gets wiped out first. You lose levels top down. If you even lost any XP like on the scalar norm of a level 30 you wouldn't just forget the last encounter, you'd forget a few levels, which is probably more than just that encounter

Needled247 wrote:

If you even lost any XP like on the scalar norm of a level 30 you wouldn't just forget the last encounter, you'd forget a few levels, which is probably more than just that encounter

Which is even more of a reason to skip this silly business of memory loss.

Not to mention that it would still make PvP death carry less consequence, not more. A trigger-happy player who can point to a rule that says his victims are legally barred from remembering enough detail to attempt any reprisal at all, will be more tempted towards frivolous PvP, not less.

(Again, that's distinct from the whole anonymous assassin thing discussed earlier: in an instance like that, neither the character nor the player would legitimately know who killed them. The information would have been legitimately concealed from both the targeted character and that character's player, and a character returning to life even with a fully intact memory would *still* not know who killed her, she'd know only that some anonymous dark-clothed assassin had knifed her in the dark.)

I'm not completely against the memory loss idea; I just think it cannot be regulated enough to be worthy of further discussion.

I do think that remaining in the Fague Plane for a time while someone tries to revive your body is a great idea. It will cut down on metagaming the information spoken by characters when near a dead character. This idea solves a problem.

I’m all for the idea of having a DM help prevent possible metagaming in regards to the assassin thing. It just makes too much sense. What's the argument against this?

I also think the raise dead scrolls are too easy to get and their price is too low for what they do. I'd like to see more clerics be cleric-like and help revive the dead. However, eliminating raise dead scrolls entirely is a very bad idea, because everyone would need a cleric.

Death should have hard consequences, but half the players are already phobic of pvp as it is because (I’m assuming) they are too afraid of defeat and they have too much invested in their characters reputation or whatnot. I could play a real asshole character who can piss everyone off and just walk away from every pvp encounter before it starts just because the rules are what they are. IC actions should have IC consequences, but I’m not entirely against the rules as they stand- I just think some players know they can basically abuse the rules (basically metagaming) because they know they can just walk away from every fight no matter what. Maybe it's just something I have noticed, but it reeks of metagaming to me. Saying this probably make me seem like I'm a pvp whore, but I think I have only gotten into one pvp battle in the last 6 months. Not sure if this problem is signifigant or solveable, so I'll move onto something else.

As far as my experiences- I have always played on the side of evil, and I think I can safely say that (in general) DMs don’t do much to help facilitate evil characters or even the players who have evil characters. My main evil character I’ve been playing and actively role-playing for the past 9 months (up until a few weeks ago anyways) has probably completely gone under the DMs radar. Perhaps because server B is my go-to place with that character, or perhaps I only interacted with a small population of the entire server (cloak and dagger stuff that only involved a few individuals), or maybe because that’s all evil characters have a chance at. A couple evil characters simply can’t do as much as a giant goodly faction.

Even though I can change name and bio on a PC, where I cannot stop metagaming is here: if the assassin says even one thing, the player can click on the talk channel name and get your main handle as one does when sending a tell.

There's no easy solution to this issue. If there was, we would have implemented it forever and a day ago.

There are a few options that I can see... my personal favorite involves debuffs from death in PvP. However, even that has it's downsides. Getting ganked in illegal PvP just to grief the player/character is an example. Yet, it still provides a big incentive for character's to not "Superman" their way through every tense, hostile situation.

I'm completely open to suggestions, though, and will give all suggestions a fair weigh in on the scales.

My only thing is that our suggestions might not be perfect, but some of them are far better than what we currently have. As long as there's no physical item loss, gold loss, or any XP loss for the most part, there's a limit to how much "illegal griefing" can really screw over a player anyways. All that's required are the usual screenshots and DM assistance should it happen, and the punishment can carry on like it always has. I don't think that just because one person is going to abuse something that the rest of us can't have nice things. I know that seems to happen more often than not, but in my view, people will break the PvP rules, and just about any other rules with one system or the next. It's just how it is.

Yossarin wrote:

That alone answers my question. It was a way in which you phrased it that gave me pause. I have always been of the mind that since we like to oversee assassination attempts anyway that we should temporarily rename the assassin to something else (including bio) to preserve their anonymity. It is very, very easy for us as DMs to change a name and a bio. We can do it even faster on the bio than you can yourself, I do believe.

The assassin having "non-descript clothing and appearance" is up to the player, of course.

Problem is, I've always been alone in this thinking.

With memory and anonymity during death etc etc, i have seen many servers make use of a system that allows players to change there name. We can already change our Bio, this could help evil people doing evil things, infiltration and assassination easier.

(I think assassination should be player controlled and need no DM over-site, but then again i think the entire "ask first" policy itself lends to good people having it easy lol )

Nivo wrote:

Mercedes wrote:

This all sounds like a problem of death not being serious enough IC, aside from any mechanical consequences. I think making people care about the life and death of their character more than their items and numbers is really the trick here.

This is the crux of the matter. And mechanical 'fixes' aside, proper perception of death is what is needed. While that Raise Dead scroll works 100% of the time, there is no IC guarantee it will work. Death is not something that should be hand-waved or flaunted (unless, of course, if you are a nihilistic or have a death-wish...in which case, why accept a rez if you die anyway?). But this is up to the individual player. I have seen some spectacular RP stemming from the consequences of death and resurrection, so it is not as blatantly bad as it seems to be made out here.

In essence, 'change begins at home.' This is my admittedly laissez faire take on the matter.

To resolve memory issues and the like, lore could be "invented" that something strange has happens to the gods power due to Ao, some rule that has been decreed to increase the importance of gods and faith. That scrolls no longer work at all, that one must be faithful and be taken before a cleric of that faith inside the hallowed ground of that faith or its idol or an ally of that gods idol or temple. Thus if someone is killed they are dead, there character icly is gone to the fuge plane and can rp there as dead waiting judgment, they remember everything but can not act icly for they are dead, the onyl way to return is to re spawn and re-spawn has a cool down timer OR a player can take the body to a faith of the character or a faith that is allied to that faith and a cleric PC or NPC can bring them back to life.

*This would increase the importance of faith.
*Stop people form returning instantly for revenge.
*Increase the importance of clerical raise dead abilities that are very important in pnp.
*Make death more serious IC, while still allowing people who are dead to RP on the other side with others who are dead awaiting judgment.

It would make death more serious, and the respawn timer could be based on level and if the player was killed in pvp (hostiled) action or PVE non hostiled and fighting monsters.

The implementation of this would make one hell of a server wide event !

(sorry for the typos, long day)

I'm of the mind that the memory mechanic should be taken out. It works in some LARPs, and in some cases where people hold true to server rules and the spirit of PvP, but break down entirely for folks who are not willing to lose gracefully.

For assassinations, I think that there are a few things that are possible to be scripted into death. To address Yoss's concern, I think folks who "die" to PvP could come under a special state; where they are not mechanically dead to the engine so we can do things like make them blind and deaf. I think that will solve the issue of chat logs and user IDs.

OR, as you guys have stated, and I really like this idea, the carry-able corpse item; only rezable by a priest in town or a PC cleric. This solves the scroll problem in PvP while it frees up their use in PvE.

For general PvP, I don't think it's that big of an issue as Faction A will likely know they went to throw down with Faction B, etc.

In general, I'm against stacking negatives (res sickness), as what's to stop the original killer from killing their victim, who's now much weaker, again?

Lastly, the idea that we need to make death more "scary" for a player is purely OOC and that's a dangerous path to travel. So, I'm not convinced that making the penalties harsher will do anything but see PvP disappear altogether.

Fabian wrote:

Lastly, the idea that we need to make death more "scary" for a player is purely OOC and that's a dangerous path to travel. So, I'm not convinced that making the penalties harsher will do anything but see PvP disappear altogether.

Do you think the idea of waiting in the fuge plane and having to be resurrected by your faith or an allied faith character within such a place is "punishment" enough ? i mean it will be a pain but make you want to avoid death all the more and HATE it when it happens.

I think a rule should also be added about when people die. As sub-dule damage exists i think people should have to use it, as non harmful spells exist to capture someone i think they should be used, if a player dies in-game through pvp they are DEAD and the killer has no control over if they are dead alive or unconscious, if they wanted unconscious they should use spells or damage that is not lethal.

To many times have i been told "your not dead just knocked unconscious" ... im llike umm that was a banshee or you just shot 5 IGMMS at me i am a puddle on the floor.

Should i post that in the unwritten rules ?

If you want..... though it will be at the discretion of the DM's as to whether or not it gets added.

ainjyll wrote:

If you want..... though it will be at the discretion of the DM's as to whether or not it gets added.

I posted it, id also like to add hear that perhaps if there was a more "hard code" system for binding and changing individuals like shackles that can be purchased and rolls one can make to escape them or spells one can cast to remove them. I think if someone dose get you unconscious or held there should be a mechanical means to bind them that takes into account rouge abilities and casting or even pure strength.

Fabian wrote:

For assassinations, I think that there are a few things that are possible to be scripted into death. To address Yoss's concern, I think folks who "die" to PvP could come under a special state; where they are not mechanically dead to the engine so we can do things like make them blind and deaf. I think that will solve the issue of chat logs and user IDs.

OR, as you guys have stated, and I really like this idea, the carry-able corpse item; only rezable by a priest in town or a PC cleric. This solves the scroll problem in PvP while it frees up their use in PvE.

Yes, and yes. Is there any argument that can be made against this besides it being a lot of scripting?

TaliaZalinNalla wrote:

I posted it, id also like to add hear that perhaps if there was a more "hard code" system for binding and changing individuals like shackles that can be purchased and rolls one can make to escape them or spells one can cast to remove them. I think if someone dose get you unconscious or held there should be a mechanical means to bind them that takes into account rouge abilities and casting or even pure strength.

I personally would note something like this, but then I always vote for more hard core stuff. That being said I think the general consensus is that items like this are generally to abusable.

msheeler wrote:

TaliaZalinNalla wrote:

I posted it, id also like to add hear that perhaps if there was a more "hard code" system for binding and changing individuals like shackles that can be purchased and rolls one can make to escape them or spells one can cast to remove them. I think if someone dose get you unconscious or held there should be a mechanical means to bind them that takes into account rouge abilities and casting or even pure strength.

I personally would note something like this, but then I always vote for more hard core stuff. That being said I think the general consensus is that items like this are generally to abusable.

I don't think we should miss out, they would "vanish" after a reset i assume and if not that could be setup that way. And i think its high time that we get the nifty more hardcore stuff in play and those who abuse it are dealt with accordingly. I mean how much could you abuse a system of shackles & rope if it was coded to allow escape from various means it would all essentially be IC.

I was thinking about this system

viewtopic.php?p=1123593#p1123593

I thought of a few ways it could be abused, so i thought i would address them and outline it a little better as i think it or something like it would resolve a heap of issues.

Point: To make "death" more serious and feared, but to also make clerics what they once were in PNP, that and the importance of faith. The healers and life givers the only means of life after death the clerics (and others of divine favor). But also to resolve some PVP issues with resurrection & RP.

Concept: A new "death" system that takes the current deity system into account. Death of PVE or PVP leads to you being ported to a new area the area; being a fully formed Fugue city this city will be outlined a little more later. Where you died a body is spawned in its place. The body is heavy and can be moved thus taken to a temple or idol, of a god or allied god. Here it can have raise dead or resurrection cast on it. Only a cleric can raise dead with a scroll or spell at an idol and a NPC can do both in a temple or at an idol, if a NPC is present there.

Mechanics: Death from PVE will lead to your body drop, you are ported to the Fugue plane and must wait 5min to re-spawn by your idol or the temple of the "major" god your faith is allied to. This timer can increase as you die in one session. If you die from PVP, (hostiled by a player and player or "summon" kills you) then you die your body drops and you must wait until you are resurrected, or "half" of a server reset cycle is up.

You will be forced despite restarts to portal back into the Fugue plane till your time is up and your body is found (as in you come back to life at the temple with the story that your body was recovered). Otherwise a player can icly raise your body. During your death you are in the Fugue plane and can operate as if in the prime, it is a real place with real people but you cant keep anything taken from the city if you return to life. If a player is returned to life they get a pop box that asks them if they want to return so they have the chance to say no this box will also state the faith and alignment of the player or NPC reviving them. Anything acquired in the Fugue plane can have a certain tag in the blue print or res ref and upon leaving the Fugue all items with such are removed from your inventory, resurrection could be tied in with "returning" through the entry mirror and a player that enters the mirror. The mirror script modified to remove all Fugue items including the item that (states they have been returned to life send them to _____ temple) and the player appears at the temple of where they were resurrected.

( i know there is some heavy scripting here but i seen most of this done before so with some snooping such could be modified to suite Amia)

Lore: Ao had decreed that divine magic of the fifth sphere and above is for the right of only the most devoted of the diety's faith, thus only clerics may have access to such powerful spells like raise death and resurrection. Not only this but individuals can only be returned from death in the hallow ground of their faith or the faith of a god that is allied to their faith. This would force people who wish to revive their fallen comrades to pay homage to the gods rather than ignore them and remain faithless and take for granted the ease of the raise dead scroll that adventures have grown all to accustomed to.

The Faithless: Would get STUCK, yep that's it woops .. only kidding Faithless would get a chance a NPC quest where they need to read about the gods faith and how it works, and chose a god then and there, if they refuse to do so they don't get to go home plain and simple and if they remain they slowly become one with the wall of the faithless. (Players would be forced to learn about the gods and chose a faith and become more accustomed to the faith and death system, once a god is chosen they get a once time get out of "death" card and return to the temple of their faith.

stuck int he plane, must do quest and read lore about gods and faitha nd the importance of such and chose their god there or remain there forever.

Fugue plane & city: A entire map could be created that acts as the Fugue plane a grey waste lands with a city, it could reflect common FR lore about such and have a tavern and other places allowing players to interact and rp even when they are dead. it could even have little quests and things to occupy characters while they are dead including possible "other means" of return run by dm or npc quests to do so. (such as the faithless first return)

Body Stolen: If a body is taken by a enemy the player can still be revived by a cleric or player who travels to the dead players faith or an allied faith and speaks with the NPC there, they offer donation (a large one that would also cut in to resolve Amias economy issues) and in return the cleric can cast True resurrection returning them to life without need of a body. (this can only be done in major temples, thus the "major" gods of Amia those who have the most dominance in amia will have temples and there allies will need to pay homage to the prominent god.

Death Mechanics: Lending from some others ideas, i think that as death sends you to another place you are unable to see who killed you you are gone simple as that, and you cant be returned instantly to battle so once you are dead in pvp you cant be returned to the fight, you cant "cheat" meta or return and even if you do recall everything that happened before your death, it is at least a few in-game hours away of RP before Resurrection. (maybe less)

Talking with dead people: When people are dead one could even use spells as a means to speak with them and find out what has happened should that player have DM over-site to do so or actually acquired a spell that is added to the game to allow it ? if possible it could be a new cleric spell.

Benefits:

**This system would make death scary, if you die in pve well it can be accepted and overcome so you can get back to leveling, but if you are interacting in the big wide world with players your actions will have real consequences who knows when you will get back if you die.

** It resolves the instant coming back to life

** Gives Faith a real place that has mechanical purpose other than in clerical domains.

** Gives clerics there rightful places in party's to enable fast return to battle and adventure.

**Give a more True to the sens feel of Forgotten Realms, as faith is greatly important and the need for such in the role of survival.

** makes the experience of IC interactions more tense and will inspire the importance of being careful, although it might make interactions more risky it will reduce "pvp" for the sake of it and make it more real more scary and less of a constant hassle.

A side suggestion - Putting in the ability for players to change names themselves with // commands to increase the effectiveness of disguises and avoid metagameing. Although people can right click on your name they cant be certain what character did it only what player.

lots to discuss hear, and even if it is never discussed by us i hope some of the staff see this and think of some ways to implement it in one form or another, id be happy to hunt out some code for it if i was tasked with such a mission.

Like I said, I'm all for more hard core, but I think the general feel of the player base is that they would be 'bored' while having to wait this out and to worried about PvP griefers and having to spend time in the fugue cause some blow hole smoked them for some reason they don't understand. Till we have a player base that by and large says "I'll worry about dealing with griefers and blow holes when I get in touch with a DM and I don't mind waiting around for the time penalty to go by" then I don't see how we could do this.

That being said I do think your time penalty is a really cool idea. Maybe we can do some sort of PvP time penalty on death that is not so harsh as to alienate people. Like say if you die in PvP maybe there is no xp or gold loss, but you are sent straight to the 'PvP fugue' where you will auto respawn after 5 minutes unless your buddy raises or resurrects you.

msheeler wrote:

Like I said, I'm all for more hard core, but I think the general feel of the player base is that they would be 'bored' while having to wait this out and to worried about PvP griefers and having to spend time in the fugue cause some blow hole smoked them for some reason they don't understand. Till we have a player base that by and large says "I'll worry about dealing with griefers and blow holes when I get in touch with a DM and I don't mind waiting around for the time penalty to go by" then I don't see how we could do this.

That being said I do think your time penalty is a really cool idea. Maybe we can do some sort of PvP time penalty on death that is not so harsh as to alienate people. Like say if you die in PvP maybe there is no xp or gold loss, but you are sent straight to the 'PvP fugue' where you will auto respawn after 5 minutes unless your buddy raises or resurrects you.

I do see how it would be "crappy" to deal with griefers, but how can we make "death" scary and matter while still accounting for these people, can you ? i dont think you can as no matter what you do there will always be 1 pain in the ass at least. That said why should the community continue to miss out on a more in-depth and immersed setting for fear of the occasional "bad" day, its going to happen anyway IMO.

But what is "greif" if someone kills you ic its not "greif" its an IC action and will warrant an IC response, thus greif or not greif death is scary again, you only travel with freinds, trsut is important people watch each-other backs you never know when some freak villands going to smoke you so you have to play it that way. No way to avoid death anymore not way to stop it or avoid it who knows whats lurking around the next corner. grefing or not it would force the game to be intense again and change the dynamics of grouping and traveling forever. i think thats what it needs.

*point also if level caps were changed to allow high levels to travel with low levels and the "xp" of the highest level PC (with some limit and equation applied) is what the party gets per kill etc etc then high levels could babysit low levels people would :need" to hire mercenary to guard them, you need to join a church or faction to stay alive to level to even pick some dam oranges >.< you could die at any time ...

You could even make it so the timer & all the major downsides only kick in after 20+ to avoid "lowbie" hunting to much. you could even make it so the time limit starts almost nothing 2-5min but increase "every" time you die in PVP... and adds to your count, time increasing the time you die in PVP combat so the older the character gets the amount of times they have died would start to weigh on them, and you would "need" to get fresh meet to do the dity work to avoid death and a length line at the gates of judgment.

Just FYI, the topic of death and its consequences has a thread behind the curtain and it's of general consensus, for the time being, that the death system will stay as is until we've had a chance to clear some other projects out of the queue.

You guys are putting in a lot of effort and coming up with some good ideas and I want to add some transparency here to temper your expectations. This is clearly an important topic for folks and you have our attention. However, Talia, since you brought up the point of implementation, I wanted to make it clear that any changes to the death system is not at the top of our priority list.

Fabian wrote:

Just FYI, the topic of death and its consequences has a thread behind the curtain and it's of general consensus, for the time being, that the death system will stay as is until we've had a chance to clear some other projects out of the queue.

You guys are putting in a lot of effort and coming up with some good ideas and I want to add some transparency here to temper your expectations. This is clearly an important topic for folks and you have our attention. However, Talia, since you brought up the point of implementation, I wanted to make it clear that any changes to the death system is not at the top of our priority list.

NP, i understand entirely, this thread is just "what happens next" not will but what im just suggesting and thinking up positive changes its NP if they dont happen now or ever, only that the ideas and the reasons behind them are seen and hopefully taken into account.

I look forward to the "behind the curtain " changes, although i do really think that these secret discussions should be public >.< but thats just me and all that democracy stuff power to the people and the community and all that who har.

TaliaZalinNalla wrote:

Fabian wrote:

Just FYI, the topic of death and its consequences has a thread behind the curtain and it's of general consensus, for the time being, that the death system will stay as is until we've had a chance to clear some other projects out of the queue.

You guys are putting in a lot of effort and coming up with some good ideas and I want to add some transparency here to temper your expectations. This is clearly an important topic for folks and you have our attention. However, Talia, since you brought up the point of implementation, I wanted to make it clear that any changes to the death system is not at the top of our priority list.

NP, i understand entirely, this thread is just "what happens next" not will but what im just suggesting and thinking up positive changes its NP if they dont happen now or ever, only that the ideas and the reasons behind them are seen and hopefully taken into account.

I look forward to the "behind the curtain " changes, although i do really think that these secret discussions should be public >.< but thats just me and all that democracy stuff power to the people and the community and all that who har.

I also think that a more public venue of our project list would provide a more productive backdrop for this very discussion on improvements.

Being that Amia is story driven, if a public list is going to happen at all, we have some work to do in order not to generate spoilers at the same time.

Thank you for your understanding, I've just seen a few posts eluding to ... "So where are all these changes we were promised?" and felt compelled to make a comment in that regard.

I'm not so sure that there needs to be a mechanical fix to make death more severe or meaningful, and I'm equally unsure that we should be aiming to make the players themselves "Scared of death".

To make my case here, I'm going to use your example, but don't think of it like I'm attacking your specific example. I'm more aimed toward the theory of these kind of changes.

So let's say that a player dies, and has to go through the heavy inconvenience of being trapped in the Fugue city for a small time. What is he -losing- by doing this? He's losing time, really. To either hunt, grind, travel, or most importantly-- RP. That's not to say that Rp can't be done in the fugue city, sure. But what's really happening here is that you're trying to tackle an OOC problem that bleeds into an IC problem.

Players themselves aren't afraid of death, so sometimes this attitude bleeds into the actual character's way of thinking (Not to say that it wouldn't be a purposeful IC belief to be unafraid of death either, these cases do happen). And that's where the largest issue is, in my opinion.

To me, implementing a mechanical penalty for death will draw out a mechanical response. I think that people would view it as a mechanical inconvenience targeting the player, rather than the character itself. An "Rp penalty" to death (Ex: Losing faction turf, end of a character's story, captivity, etc), should breed more Rp. And an RP penalty to death rests in the hands of the players involved in that specific instance, to act responsibly and to foster future Rp.

I would argue that by each of us changing our individual mindset, pushing the severity of death through our own characters mentality, that we'd arrive at a conclusion that wouldn't drive a stake between the availability to Rp and a mechanical inconvenience.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

I'm not so sure that there needs to be a mechanical fix to make death more severe or meaningful, and I'm equally unsure that we should be aiming to make the players themselves "Scared of death".

To make my case here, I'm going to use your example, but don't think of it like I'm attacking your specific example. I'm more aimed toward the theory of these kind of changes.

So let's say that a player dies, and has to go through the heavy inconvenience of being trapped in the Fugue city for a small time. What is he -losing- by doing this? He's losing time, really. To either hunt, grind, travel, or most importantly-- RP. That's not to say that Rp can't be done in the fugue city, sure. But what's really happening here is that you're trying to tackle an OOC problem that bleeds into an IC problem.

Players themselves aren't afraid of death, so sometimes this attitude bleeds into the actual character's way of thinking (Not to say that it wouldn't be a purposeful IC belief to be unafraid of death either, these cases do happen). And that's where the largest issue is, in my opinion.

To me, implementing a mechanical penalty for death will draw out a mechanical response. I think that people would view it as a mechanical inconvenience targeting the player, rather than the character itself. An "Rp penalty" to death (Ex: Losing faction turf, end of a character's story, captivity, etc), should breed more Rp. And an RP penalty to death rests in the hands of the players involved in that specific instance, to act responsibly and to foster future Rp.

I would argue that by each of us changing our individual mindset, pushing the severity of death through our own characters mentality, that we'd arrive at a conclusion that wouldn't drive a stake between the availability to Rp and a mechanical inconvenience.

Totally agree with you, but what i think needs to be outlined that it is the "rules" the law the mechanics of a community that dictate and facilitate change, these or changes like this accompanied by story & additional lore would see a "eventual" change in how people play and perceive death in Amia. Its just we cant expect people to play it ICly when there is nothing but a DM present to enforce it (its sad but its true in most cases). Issues like this need to be taken from multiple directions IMO to slowly change the opinions and play style of the server simply stating how it is in rules and laws will help, a little mechanical change will help and a change to the overall pace of the server through events and dm interactions will finish it. Problem unlike pnp (where people cheat with a dm watching if they can get away with it) people don't have DM watching and will without means to stop it "bend" rp rules lore and characters to avoid negative effects, its actually rather natural as a animal to do this. Thus why we need all of the above to get that end result where people RP to RP. IMO

What ya think ?

I just want to tune in with a comparison to a different RP setting i used to play a lot, it was not Dungeons and Dragons but a space sim (Discovery Freelancer). There was a 4 hours cooldown if your character died, and let me tell you - you died a lot there.

-Nobody- complained about it.

Comparing that to Amia, death here really feels like a minor inconvenience. I'm all for implementing some form of "cooldown" after death, preferably applied in full extent only to pvp deaths, i don't think there's reason to make pve more tedious than it already is.

Ideally i would want to see assassinations being more serious, where "encounter pvp" should not be so harshly punished.

Thing is, more often than not, assassination is an intentional attack to remove a specific target from its environment [and i suppose revenge would be the other reason], so that the absence of that character gives various opportunities to take advantage of. The problem is that you cannot possibly hope to have any of that right now, unless you have the consent and full cooperation from the targeted character's player, which is rather unrealistic.

What if we made a proper assassination system that would require a written request for DM's approval? I'm sure there can be a reasonable ruling invented for it to work. And i guess the request forum would have to be hidden...

Here's a rough sketch of a hypothetical assassination.

Character "A" gets a contract to kill Character "B", from Character "C". There is a specific reason for this attempt, and a specific outcome that "C" wishes to accomplish - "C" writes the request, as he is the initiator. He provides proof of RP that describes reason and goal of this assassination. DM's give an approval. "B" is notified [?] by the DM's that there is a hit on him. "A" provides proof of RP that "B" has been successfully [and legally] killed. "B" is dead for 24-72 hours [??], after which he is back in the game, whether automatically or after a proper raise... *shrugs*.

Point of this system would be, character "B" death is not a whimsical hit after which he hits respawn and nothing happens, but an elaborate act that has been given much thought and preparation, so that during "B's" absence some agenda may be executed.

RP before, during and after.

Yay or nay?

The issue of a characters death will always be. Its near the same issue of killing the same boss fifty times a day.
Yes death is not a permanent thing here "unless" you choose to do so. Took me sometime to get over these issues myself. What I do is focus on the RP of it all the best I can. Make up what you need to carry on if your character is raised. Most the time when Im in a hunting party for example: Fire giants, if my character dies I roll play him as being knocked cold to the floor, because we all know your hunting group will raise you. There are times where there is alot of emotion RP'ed over the one that may be dead for real while they wait to raise them mind you lol. Ive come to accept that Amia is kind of like a cartoon land where there is always the villain and goodies and in the end no one really dies.. its rare if so (perma). Thats my thought on such anyways.

On the topic of DMs being focused in localized areas or you see some are on but nothing is happening: My thoughts on this seem pretty odd I guess. D&D pnp I grew up one

and from most of my experience I always felt the DM should sprinkle a little here and there. Its a tough job ..hence the name Dungeon Master. I dont like DMs having main characters. I feel that if they want to "play" they should be only a player. Sound crap I know but to me it just seems a conflict of interest if you are a player and a DM. I would rather all efforts and time of a DM be put to sprinkling all attention and guidance everywhere small events to the Large events. Even something simple as a guard of Cordor, or a npc hin, or even a random character to interact.-- Not a main character -- There are so many monsters and bosses a DM could hop into and change it up more, instead of being on a main character who has ties with alot to that group that people seem to get mad because they cant find where everyone is ...OR cant penetrate the "tight circle of bond" being the new person.

My big thing is that if you want to see a change in others, make the change in yourself first. If you'd like or expect others to treat death with a modicum of severity, be ready and willing to do so yourself. Not just occasionally, or when it matters, but every time.

I'm telling you, if you can pull this off-- treating and remembering your wounds, making the pain count-- that kind of roleplay is going to be contagious. Everyone wants to see that what they've done matters, so if a character has stabbed, punched, kicked, knocked me unconscious, yeah, you can bet that I'm gonna remain docile, injured, hurt, exhausted.

And when people see this, they deliver the same. It's contagious. People want to be a part or above the standard. Make this the standard of your own interactions, and the people you interact with will do the same.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

My big thing is that if you want to see a change in others, make the change in yourself first. If you'd like or expect others to treat death with a modicum of severity, be ready and willing to do so yourself. Not just occasionally, or when it matters, but every time.

I'm telling you, if you can pull this off-- treating and remembering your wounds, making the pain count-- that kind of roleplay is going to be contagious. Everyone wants to see that what they've done matters, so if a character has stabbed, punched, kicked, knocked me unconscious, yeah, you can bet that I'm gonna remain docile, injured, hurt, exhausted.

And when people see this, they deliver the same. It's contagious. People want to be a part or above the standard. Make this the standard of your own interactions, and the people you interact with will do the same.

I have to second this. I don't role play the consequences of what is being done "physically" (as much as I do "mentally") to my PC, nearly as much as I should, but when I've seen others doing it, I've tried doing the same.

I've always liked that about the folks I've been able to play with, they puhed me to be better so if this many of us are in agreement about it, why can't we push each other to be better too?

Yessss...

Going around with physical ailments is awesome, too.

"I was advedderig id Brogededsteed ad I slibbed in da snow, fell fordy feed ad ladded odd by face. I thig I broge by dose!"

It also gives players with invested skill or Rp talents in healing a moment to shine. Even interactions in the Salandran temples, should it be severe enough.

It's refreshing Rp to play injured for a while, after you've been playing Mr. Badass for a good long time.

Death has been whatever you make of it. In PvP it is usually dictated by the victor. In PvE, the victim (or DM if it is a plot). I feel that it is a decent policy to keep, personally, so long as the community is willing to be flexible with eachother.

Otherwise, my opinion from a playing standpoint is that actual death should be more of a permanent thing. It is why I have never brought Ascalon back from the grave. His death was meaningful for me as a player and to his friends and their players. Take it from me, death can sometimes be a tremendous source of motivating, rewarding, and interesting RP! I know though that such RP just isn't for everyone in the community and I believe there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Different strokes for different folks and such.

Beyond that, I prefer to think of most other considerably 'trivial' hunting-related "deaths" as K.O.s, especially if I have to respawn.

Remember: You can always RP the crap out of anything. It's not only this death system that has RP. This death system just has a major drawback of ignoring death completely. Which unfortunately happens more times than not. That's why changes were discussed. Noone said you couldn't RP well as it was. It's a situation that unfortunately stagnates a lot of things, in my view. But I don't think we need to go in circles, seeing as how the DM team already said it's not high on the priority list and thus (likely will continue to remain unchanged).

Needled247 wrote:

I personally wouldn't mind a system of corpses that you find on alot of other servers. Where when you die, you go to the fugue plane, and your carcass stays behind, and someone actually has to find an appropriate way to resurrect you.

Svensk wrote:

Use Thiiiiiiis instead!
Then we don't even need to raise people in order to move them around!

Yossarin wrote:

That doesn't address the memory problem, Svensk. Sure, it makes sure they don't remember where they went or how they got there, but the people involved? The faces, the dresses, the physical description of the location, the sensory input, the interrogation itself if killed again? All are supposed to be "forgotten" but the player can't forget it.

Svensk wrote:

But it solves parts of it - And that's a start. Better to solve the problem 50% than leave it unsolved to 100%

Yossarin wrote:

Challenge yourself to solve it all, sir. I don't care for half-measures.

Example;
When a government wish to change their nation, they draw up laws for people to follow - They don't ask them to be nice and obey. They force them.
And i personally think we need to force something like this upon the playerbase for it to improve. I know from reading some of the Responses in this thread that a few Dm's are positive to a change like this.

And to repeat myself - No it doesn't solve all problems, but it solves some. And that's a good start.

Quote:

I just want to tune in with a comparison to a different RP setting i used to play a lot, it was not Dungeons and Dragons but a space sim (Discovery Freelancer). There was a 4 hours cooldown if your character died, and let me tell you - you died a lot there.

This was something I was going with with the 'resurrection sickness' thing I said earlier in the page. For PvP, I think it's a really slick idea. A five minute timeout is minor. That's why I was suggesting a huge, several hour long debuff. The thing is not to keep people hidden away some place safe when they die, but to leave them very vulnerable for some amount of time. It still lets them RP and RP recovery. One of my favorite times with Lyle was when he was nursing a concussion for several hours after a PvP loss.

As for someone hunting down the weakened victim, that's part of the risk involved. It gives a motivation to stay to the back and recover rather than heading right back to your guard post or your normal patrol or what ever. Instead, you head to town and rest. You shouldn't be right back on the front lines after getting your ass handed to you. That's stupid.

Quote:

Corpses

I like this as well. I don't think you can really solve the 'memory' issue with mechanics though, no matter how much you want to try.

Quote:

My big thing is that if you want to see a change in others, make the change in yourself first.

People have been arguing this for years, and it doesn't work. It would be ideal if it did, but this topic comes up every couple of months for the past five or so years I've been on the server. So, obviously, people haven't trying, but it doesn't work. It's not in someones' best self-interest to roleplay or sit their character out for a time. While some people enjoy that and will pursue it, not every one does and it's not as contagious as you'd think. For some, it's always going to be leaving and coming back with friends a few minutes later, or coming back (sometimes several times) to try and kill you again. One of my old characters with a Grove ranger (barbarian), so I've seen it happen time and time again.

I am all for some of these changes but just make sure you don't push them too far. Some questions have been raised about how to keep Amia 'popular' and attract more people, well, sometimes in an effort to make something better the already entrenched playerbase drives into law some rules that only push the casual crowd, or newbie away. I've seen it happen before with some very niche games, only making them even more niche and not helping with the original intention of the changes.

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

Quote:

My big thing is that if you want to see a change in others, make the change in yourself first.

People have been arguing this for years, and it doesn't work. It would be ideal if it did, but this topic comes up every couple of months for the past five or so years I've been on the server. So, obviously, people haven't trying, but it doesn't work. It's not in someones' best self-interest to roleplay or sit their character out for a time. While some people enjoy that and will pursue it, not every one does and it's not as contagious as you'd think. For some, it's always going to be leaving and coming back with friends a few minutes later, or coming back (sometimes several times) to try and kill you again. One of my old characters with a Grove ranger (barbarian), so I've seen it happen time and time again.

Exactly. It doesn't work because it's voluntary - make it involuntaryand force it upon people and they will adapt.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Bobo_Underhill wrote:

Quote:

My big thing is that if you want to see a change in others, make the change in yourself first.

People have been arguing this for years, and it doesn't work. It would be ideal if it did, but this topic comes up every couple of months for the past five or so years I've been on the server. So, obviously, people haven't trying, but it doesn't work. It's not in someones' best self-interest to roleplay or sit their character out for a time. While some people enjoy that and will pursue it, not every one does and it's not as contagious as you'd think. For some, it's always going to be leaving and coming back with friends a few minutes later, or coming back (sometimes several times) to try and kill you again. One of my old characters with a Grove ranger (barbarian), so I've seen it happen time and time again.

Exactly. It doesn't work because it's voluntary - make it involuntaryand force it upon people and they will adapt.

Adapt or react otherwise and potentially in a fashion not conducive to Amian development and growth. (Even if it might be against the rules).

Forcing is a very, VERY edged idea to consider with regards to anything. It's a lot of times gonna backfire in your face.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

My big thing is that if you want to see a change in others, make the change in yourself first. If you'd like or expect others to treat death with a modicum of severity, be ready and willing to do so yourself. Not just occasionally, or when it matters, but every time.

I'm telling you, if you can pull this off-- treating and remembering your wounds, making the pain count-- that kind of roleplay is going to be contagious. Everyone wants to see that what they've done matters, so if a character has stabbed, punched, kicked, knocked me unconscious, yeah, you can bet that I'm gonna remain docile, injured, hurt, exhausted.

And when people see this, they deliver the same. It's contagious. People want to be a part or above the standard. Make this the standard of your own interactions, and the people you interact with will do the same.

On my phone so pardon the brevity, I can not agree with this more. Good RP begets good RP.That alone will help keep people more engaged.

Of course that's still my opinion, whether it works in practice, which based on the most recent posts, it does not, is another matter.

I love to see my characters suffer the consequences of loss and their actions generally, as it adds to the atmosphere that what they are doing has risks, and hence is something they pursue in spite of that. It can be small stuff from physical scars and ailments to mental ones. Though I also like to have the "permadeath" to hang over them. Robert might at the moment follow in the footsteps of my Arabett Matron and Sharina. His story could continue, I enjoy the plots immensly and the recent rp that was created through them, but I also enjoy them because I feel my character may die for meddling in them. If that happens I will allow the players to determine who are involved in the roleplay.

It is also why I would like to see the corpse system. I do not see a pvp loss as something to be anoyed about or to curse about. I see it as the glorious risk you took to try to defend someone or to get closer to your sinister goals, and that it actually makes all your victories more meaningful.

Amen.

Amen indeed! I would love to leave your corpses along with the others too- I mean..Schwaaat?

I think the corspe system may cause more issues than fix really, i've seen it implemented before with less than stellar results. but who am I to say anything? ; )

I'm also fond of the stat penalties after death idea- it can propigate role play more than anything when you think about it.

Immediate problem with mechanical penalties after death: they won't move from server to server. You'll die on server B and wind up on server A in tip top shape.

Amia... what happens next? (cleaned)

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