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TormakSaber

Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 17:43 PM

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Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

No man serves his god dead.

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Lutra

Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 18:23 PM

Player

Joined: 12 Feb 2008

Well...one can serve in the domain of his god, or no?

TormakSaber

Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 22:04 PM

Player

Joined: 16 Dec 2004
Location: Somewhere

Good luck saving Caraigh as a petitioner stuck in the House of the Triad with no powers, no possessions, no memories, no way off the plane, no spells, and much much more.

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Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Lutra

Posted: Sat, Apr 23 2011, 23:31 PM

Player

Joined: 12 Feb 2008

hm hm hm.....definitely an easier way

Dark Immolation

Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 19:13 PM

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Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

"Dead soldiers don't win wars, it's the ones that survive to see it to the end that do."

That's how it goes most of the time, except when a particularly martyr-like sacrifice is required. But that is when you realize giving up your life will win the war or give your comrades a chance to win it. It is a lot more noble than dying in some random battle because pride overrode your wisdom.

I imagine the Triad gives their followers the good sense to know when they can expect a miracle of faith and when it's just time to get the hell out of there and rethink your approach.

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Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.

Mobile_Svensk

Posted: Sun, Apr 24 2011, 19:20 PM

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Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!

... There's more and more examples here making paladins look dumb, and downright lacking insight. Of course you don't go ahead and challenge that wicked demon god on your own just 'for the sake of it', You gather your friends.

Else you'll stand there, in front of your god as he arched his left eyebrow and asks you -"The hell, d00d? Why didn't you get backup? Now the entire isle is burning because each paladin of my order decided to challenge the demon himself!"

Gyah. It's just as noble to back away from a fight you cannot win, and live to fight another day.

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Vinasius

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 14:03 PM

Player

Joined: 21 May 2007

Guys, a bit of advice from you or viewpoints. I currently play a paladin of torm, I believe the way I play him is perfect, but i got under ooc fire from someone from not being paladinish enough.

question1:
I like to play my paladin of torm as intelligent...(he has intel 14 base btw) , strategic, logical and rational while keeping strictly to his religious codes.
The situation is is that is it wrong of him for example to stay invisible and escape if he knows he's outnumbered. (nwn )

1)
Is this wrong from him to do this? Also..lets say he comes across an army of undead...or orcs...now he know he has no chance of winning..as he and his men are completely outnumbered...and if he goes at them head on...also he and his men are the last line of defence between the monster horde and a village of innocents....so what he does is go in inivisble by passing the orcs and undead...in the midst of battle while their fighting with other of warriors..and then he looks for the leader or necromancer and he comes out of invisibility...tells them the crimes they have done and then challenges them to one on one duel....honorably..cause he also knows that if he kills the necro or orc leader..the army would shatter under no leadership and the day would be won for good and many lives would be saved at minimal cost.

now is this against a paladins code or is it allowed?????

the other thing is...how do you balance evil and law in action...

for example: Paladin is instructed by his lord to wipe out and kill every evil orc in an orc camp nearby the town, he goes into the orc camp and fights them and kills most, then he comes across orc women and children, upon detectiing evil (due to dnd allignment system) the orc women and children are evil...but what does he do? Law dictates he follow his lords orders...his paladin code might not allow him to do evil..but killing orc women and children who are not evil..how does one balance this..i'm confused. (this is an actual PNP situation ive come across actually)

would really appreciate your advise people..btw he's a paladin of torm..

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Silent2001

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 14:26 PM

Player

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Location: United Kingdomshire

Only a truly stupid person would approach a necromancer, surrounded by undead, hostiles, etc, etc and ask for an honourable duel. Paladin or not. A paladin would simply cut down the necromancer with no thought for honour because their hesitation could cost the lives of countless innocents. The man is guilty, it's time to met out justice not offer honourable duels. As for sneaking through an army of evil bastards, well, he should do what he believes will ensure the villagers survive. If thats holding the army at bay while they flee, then that, but if theres no chance of them escaping he'd go for the head I imagine.

As for killing women and children, if they're non-combatants I'd say it gets a little trickier. Gun to my head, if I was playing a paladin, he'd kill them and then repent or place them under arrest.

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Vinasius

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 16:29 PM

Player

Joined: 21 May 2007

Silent2001 wrote:

you know i really appreciate it when others think so too, especially dms.

I mean A LOT of people on amia really think the paladin must be the 'oh so stupid' play style..i dont know why thats so deeply entrenched in the mindset of some that paladins.

1) Do not attack their enemies in anything except direct confrontation
2) Do not use things like invisibility, or sneaking or anything for an advantage.
3) Think paladins cannot drink alcohol.., or can't wank off....or bed multiples etc...

its just entrenched that they all have to be embodiments of disneyland ideals..

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Zedrik

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 17:29 PM

Player

Joined: 16 Aug 2011
Location: Silent Hill, Indiana

There's such a very specific mindset people think Paladins must have, that it's got a couple tropes about it. (And possibly more.)

TV Tropes: Lawful Stupid wrote:

In tabletop roleplaying games, it's apparently such a common behavior for paladins (see Leeroy Jenkins) that it seems this is what everyone expects paladins to do these days.
In fact, it's so common that the Dungeons And Dragons Sourcebook Book of Exalted Deeds spends a good number of pages explaining how to be Lawful Good without being a total dimwit. The creators themselves got sick of it.

TV Tropes: Stupid Good wrote:

The Book of Exalted Deeds didn't provide so much advice for these players (indeed, they left a paladin to choose between "destroying evil and honoring love" when said love was between two Always Chaotic Evil succubi), but they did indicate a good character could ask "How big is that dragon, and does it have any friends?" with an eye towards knowing if they stand a chance at all.

In FR (and other settings), Paladins follow different gods with different focuses on what constitutes Virtue. A Paladin of Sune is going to be a lot different than a Paladin of Tyr. Heck, the two branches of Tyr's paladins are going to have a few differences due to their focuses. Also a lot of people have a Hollywood sense of what a knight or purity or honor is and what he/she's allowed to do and also may be bleeding RL knighthood stuff into paladins who have no reason to be following those codes due to being from a very different religion and culture.

Vinasius wrote:

1) Do not attack their enemies in anything except direct confrontation
2) Do not use things like invisibility, or sneaking or anything for an advantage.
3) Think paladins cannot drink alcohol.., or can't wank off....or bed multiples etc...

1) I remember a story where for some reason a paladin was honorbound to follow the orders of some vile doof. Said doof ordered him to bring back the head of his king. And he did. Still attached to his body. And with the king's army in tow.
2) The honor-obsessed Klingons use cloaking devices. Nuff said. :lol:

(Not that I think Klingons = Paladins. Though maybe... Klingons = War Knights?

)
3) Those things really really depend on the specific oaths and virtues of each religion/order a paladin belongs to and what personal vows he/she's taken. The various religions on Faerun are not Medieval Roman Catholicism. (Note, I don't really know what the Medieval church was like, but I assume most knight tropes are based on Hollywood vision of the knights and their relationship with the church.)

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Pony

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 17:33 PM

Player

Joined: 07 May 2005

There are far cooler elements to knightly/paladin rp. The "Colee", the strike a knight receives during his knighting ceremony. The slap was the last time a knight was to allow himself to be struck without replying with violence.

Slap Robert and see what happens. :wink:

Pony

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 18:04 PM

Player

Joined: 07 May 2005

Robert in the earliest draft I was inspired by the book "The Talisman" by Sir Walter Scott. The leopard knight sitting under a palm tree under the burning heat of the desert sun far away from his homeland, serving in the crusades. Since then there are many sources from which I drew my inspiration. I requested him as a nobleman and knight because I was not putting the importance on the fact he was a paladin, but a knight of medieval inspired standards. My out of character goal, very humble, was to make him the most prestigious paladin and knight on the server.

Now I am constantly asked to in game, in character and out of character to help with knight themed characters. The longer I play Robert the harder for me it is to give a simplified awnser. I began writing a new edition of the tome of heraldry (the old one did not satisfy me) to help other characters, but the new one I may not post because for one) writing it does not truly fit Robert and two) I am again not satisfied with it.

What makes the character interresting for me is his inperfection and his struggles. With Robert there are many, perhaps why I like playing him for so long. There is the lancelot inspired romance (courtly love) of loving a woman that you can not have. There is the struggle of chivalry in a grim world where the greater good is more important than staying true to yourself. The weight of responsibility in contrast to his personal code and wishes. His political and military struggles are only the material that feeds the internal struggle. Those among many others.

So in other words, do not let yourself be too limited due to your ooc expectations what is honorable and what is not. Your character will either find it justified he stabs someone from behind under invisibility, or seek repentance for comitting an act he finds dishonorable, or not do it even if it means there are consequences. The struggle with the conduct of chivalry, it's limits, it's consequences and how long you can stay true to it before the weight of it becomes too heavy is something you should experience through roleplay, not discuss on the forum.

If you are a paladin, a dm might also help you with that. :wink:

Edit: And I just saw the post I replied to was removed. >.>

Edit 2: Oh, and you do not have to be a beacon of chivalry to be an extremely cool and well played knight. Look at Avadon!

NinjaClarinet

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 18:41 PM

Player

Joined: 12 Jul 2010

Probably not what you're looking for, but I always find it fun to explore the concepts of honor and chivalry on the other side of the alignment spectrum. Luca represents -his- culture's Knightly equivalent. Ordained an Inquisitor by the Church, he serves as a staunch defender and propagator of his people, their traditions and religion. A dedicated servant to a caste of Princes and other nobility. Lawful to a fault, he uses a heavy hand against people that stray from the traditions and code he's been taught to uphold. By all definitions, a legitimate knight. Certain stereotypical "chivalrous" qualities have crept into his persona, he won't mess with children, tends to be a bit chauvinistic about woman (in the "good" over protective double-standard way), absolutely abhors bad manners, and will try to resolve conflict diplomatically before turning to violence.

And yet, not many people would say he's "good". A great deal of people associate Chivalry, Honor, and Knighthood with being "good", and yet there are countless historical references to bloodthirsty knights and people oppressed by them, that would have been considered shining examples of their code by their peers. I play more to that trope, exploring a knight's role in a darker community while still having the fun of playing with the romanticized ideals of the chivalric code.

Scimiter

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 18:57 PM

Player

Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Location: Canada

Grymia wrote:

..."(Her) blade defends the Helpless, (Her) Might upholds the Weak, (Her) word speaks only Truth.. "

Yes, cheesy lines from a movie but IMHO they also damn well ring true for a Paladin.

It's more then a cheesy line actually. The writers working on Dragonheart went back to documents from the middle ages on the knight's code and looked for a way to paraphrase them. The result is the well known and oft quoted phrase i share in full:

A knight is sworn to valor.
His heart knows only virtue.
His blade defends the helpless.
His might upholds the weak.
His word speaks only truth.
His wrath undoes the wicked!

If you are looking for a good guideline for a lawful hero type pally/knight this is a great place to start. It is the embodiment of the knight's code without diving into all the social protocol that was also required by their oath. Also very popular to be used in the SCA when receiving a knighthood as I did for my own.

If you're looking for a IG example of this those that remember would point to Renis Whiteheart. At least when Shar wasn't having her way. Slow to anger and judge but quick to punish and protect when required. A diplomat first and a warrior second as it should be. It's all well and good to be the type that kills evil on sight but it takes real courage and valor to offer an enemy the Light at the risk of touching the Darkness yourself.

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Kraniumbrud

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 19:22 PM

Player

Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark

personally i dont think trials are a very faerunian thing, i find that paladins in my experince tend to be judge and jury rather than police

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Mr. Hackums

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 21:23 PM

Player

Joined: 22 May 2008

I would cite Tyrran Courts, and the whole system of judgment and justice that they've set up to disagree with ya, Kranium. I think Paladins naturally (And should) judge smaller issues in rural areas. But in a well-developed city, or at any criminal higher than a petty thief, in lawful societies where courts are present, they get pushed through them

Dark Immolation

Posted: Fri, Sep 28 2012, 21:25 PM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

Actually, Tyr is all about trails and the judicial process. Trials are virtually a religious experience for them. It really depends on the deity. A Hoarite, Tormtar, or Kelemvorite is more likely to consider himself a Judge Dredd figure, in my opinion.

Silent2001 wrote:

I feel this could apply for plenty of paladins as well. You keep to your code as much as possible, but unless your god is a total hardass, you're going to be expected to make judgement calls in certain situations. I don't think Helm will care what the little prayer book you're holding says, if you're going to let a madman kill dozens because an "honorable duel" could not be found with him. If that were the case, any villain worth his salt with always keep himself unarmed and in his night clothes so paladins couldn't attack him without falling.

I wouldn't say that automatically implies that all paladins are holy assassins, but rather that circumstances may come when they need to play that role. They may bellyache, and cry, and question their actions, or even need to repent afterwards, but that's what they'll be expected to do. The purpose of a paladin's code is to guide him in doing the right thing, not to keep him from Falling. When the code would overly impede him from doing the right thing or contradicts itself, that's when the judgement comes in.

Edit: Hackface beat me to the Tyrran thing. >_>

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You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.

Kraniumbrud

Posted: Sat, Sep 29 2012, 7:52 AM

Player

Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark

i agree that some would be entitled to trials, but those that are obviusly evil, like seamross would just be executed, atleast by me.
Trials are for cases of doubt or complicated cases like..say corruption in a financial sector of town.

Tyr might be a exception, I wouldnt know havnt played one, but from what ive seen from the time ive rp'ed with the traidic knights, the tyrrans just smites the evil doers

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Dark Immolation

Posted: Sat, Sep 29 2012, 8:39 AM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

You can't expect one particular subset of a faith to represent the entirety of it, of course. Every faith has facets and groups within it that may be more or less likely to lop an enemy's head off.

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You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.

phalanxyrian

Posted: Sat, Sep 29 2012, 10:23 AM

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Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: under your bed (the netherlands)

You all forget that the medieval rules of engagment and their perspective are very difrent from the written rules of chivalery. They mainly boil down to "history is written by the victor" thus that ment if you win you are honourable it doesnt mean how you won. So lots of dirty fighting because people whom say you didnt fight fair are next on your list.

Lutra

Posted: Sat, Sep 29 2012, 12:53 PM

Player

Joined: 12 Feb 2008

Dark Immolation wrote:

Silent2001 wrote:

Do not mistake paladins with a Greyguard. There is an actual reason why do paladins dislike greyguards

IronAngel

Posted: Sat, Sep 29 2012, 13:12 PM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

Greyguards are paladins. It's the prerequisite. They have the exact same virtues and values, they're just freed from the need to continuously atone. They're the ones who're sent to make the hard choices when possible, but every paladin should strive to do the right thing regardless. The only difference is that a normal paladin without the Greyguard Prestige Class (or are they substitution levels?) will need an Atonement to make it right afterward. Greyguards simply get the convenience of skipping that stage.

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Grymia

Posted: Sat, Sep 29 2012, 15:34 PM

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Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

IronAngel wrote:

To a point, Iron.

They need to be serving the interests of their church when they .. act in those fashions otherwise they need to atone just as badly as a normal Paladin.

Another point is Greyguards are chosen from the best and brightest of a faith's Paladins. They need to have done a fair bit as a Paladin normally bound to the Oaths of being a Paladin.

Guardian

Posted: Sat, Sep 29 2012, 19:04 PM

Player

Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Location: The Sky Above The Rain.

The funny part about the paladin class is that everyone view the priorities of paladins differently. We know words like honor, courage, virtue, but we all would express it variously.

I did play a paladin (Helmite) for two years (not on Amia). I would never do it again. I had countless arguments with DM's and other players if he is being played properly or not. Should he follow the dictates and codex of a paladin, or strictly follow the dogma of is patron deity.
In fact, I see a paladin class morelike a PrC. Playing a Champion of (insert deity) is much more easier than playing a paladin, and hand on heart, quite a large number of Amia population is playing a paladin only because of the sweet, sweet immunities and bonuses. There is only a handful of those that truly play their paladins as they should (my opinion).
I would like to see DM's giving away not only DCs, but chaotic points for inadequate behavior and lawful points for valid approach as well. Not only in case of paladins, mind you. Is paladin violating the paladin's codex? Bang, shoot a few chaotic / evil points to them. If they do it often, they will fall, which is only appropriate.

Playing a paladin is not about *smiles*. It is not about being the sweet, nice guy. Sadly, many thinks it is enough. Many thinks that LG guys should be made of sugar. Nonsense.

Keldorn is a great example of a paladin. I kinda like to see Barristan Selmy as a paladin (flawed, but still). Playing a paladin is a rocky path filled with hard decisions, self-questioning and such.

On a side note, I do not mind seeing paladin / fighters. I do not mind seeing paladin / clerics. Paladin / rogue is extremely cheeky and cheap. Something I absolutely refuse.

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666WaysToHell

Posted: Sun, Sep 30 2012, 4:35 AM

Player

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Western Australia

I can simplify the difference between a Paladin and a Greyguard.

Paladin = Superman.
Greyguard = Batman.

Done!

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Grymia

Posted: Sun, Sep 30 2012, 4:38 AM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2004
Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada

... Little more complicated then that.

Batman does not have a higher power to respond to. Greyguards still do.

666WaysToHell

Posted: Sun, Sep 30 2012, 4:41 AM

Player

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Location: Western Australia

I was more referring to 'how' a Paladin and a Greyguard work towards 'good' rather than their higher calling.

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IronAngel

Posted: Sun, Sep 30 2012, 7:54 AM

Player

Joined: 29 Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki, Finland

I think gray guards are grossly misinterpreted. They're not some ruthless vigilantes. They try to adhere to the same standards as any paladin. But sometimes they're called upon to make the hard choice and take one for the team. I don't think anyone who wants to be a gray guard is made one, it's a nasty responsibility a few of the best paladins have to take upon themselves.

What gray guard basically allows is a free Atonement (no XP cost for the caster) for acts beyond your code of conduct, and at level 10 you no longer need to atone at all (as long as the act was in the interests of the greater good). The actual code you strive to follow is equivalent to any paladin's.

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Mercedes

Posted: Sun, Sep 30 2012, 21:02 PM

Player

Joined: 14 Dec 2011

Paladin saves (and abilities) go off Charisma, so I just assume that Paladins are usally just as virtuous as they THINK they are. Knighting in some countries used to include a ritual slap to the face as the last insult the aforementioned knight could ever suffer without retalliation. Of course noble folk think they're doing well by their less fortunate regardless of the situation-- it's that damn charisma score. Keeps you looking and feeling more or less majestic even in bad situations.

Let them eat cake.

Kraniumbrud

Posted: Tue, Oct 02 2012, 8:40 AM

Player

Joined: 08 Dec 2008
Location: Denmark

Mercedes wrote:

actually Paladins dont "think" they are virtuous, they are divinely blessed because they are.

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Mr. Hackums

Posted: Tue, Oct 02 2012, 19:50 PM

Player

Joined: 22 May 2008

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Mercedes wrote:

actually Paladins dont "think" they are virtuous, they are divinely blessed because they are.

That's a fantastic paladin answer, but I don't think that's a fair expectation. The Gods don't bless a Paladin because he is a super-virtuous human being. Instead, they bless a being that shows -promise- of virtue, and completes this agreement through the undertaking of oaths and training. Then, with those powers, he becomes the pinnacle of virtue.

That's my take on the matter. I don't think it's absolutely right, but the procedure of bestowing blessings remains in the minds of the divine.

Dark Immolation

Posted: Wed, Oct 03 2012, 2:56 AM

Developer

Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Location: The downeaster "Alexa"

There's no reason it couldn't be both. No one says all gods have to go about choosing and nurturing their paladins the same way. Some may be merit based, making you show your worth first, others may watch you without you knowing and just decided to invest their blessings in you, expecting you to live up to it. It could be a multitude of setups, all depending on the god and the individual.

After all, with things like Favored Souls, they just pick you for the sheer hell of it most would say. If there can be that, there can at least be some sort of middle ground.

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You think Magic is your ally... but you merely adopted the Art. He was born in it. Molded by it.
Sometimes, an angel is simply a devil with better intentions.

Mr. Hackums

Posted: Wed, Oct 03 2012, 3:28 AM

Player

Joined: 22 May 2008

True. What I was meaning to say, simply, was that it's not nearly as black and white as it was painted in the message previous to mine.

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