What kind of interaction are you supposed to have when you're dead, exactly?

Unfortunately, yes, it does suck to have to take a time out when you die, but having played on such a server, while it is boring, it makes you think twice about dying. I personally think the time out is a good thing, in the case of losing in PvP, because too often I find that people just get up and shrug it off.

Ultimately, I wouldn't worry about bashing/your body dissapearing. That's a non-issue with scripting. The trick is to get things how you want it, if such a system were to even be implemented.

My suggestion would be that if a corpse has been left unattended for x minutes, a wandering cleric NPC spawns in the zone, then casts raise dead and subsequently disappears, leaving you to your devices. Provided this happened, you would have enforced memory loss of your death.

That way, you can go about your way, but it's kind of forces you to roleplay as if the wind got knocked out of you and you shouldn't just immediately default to revenge and metagaming your death.

Edit: There could also be a burn/bury/destroy corpse for the PvP victor which makes it so you instantly respawn at home and you have to forget everything that happened similarly.

If you are resurrected properly, though, perhaps we can talk some lighter considerations as to how much you forget.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Make harsher death penalties optional, rewarding those who choose to take the risk!

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

That completely ignores what those taking the risks actually want: success in their endeavors, which usually involve making permanent damage to the other person. Thus...uhm...reward them for risking death penalties by putting penalties on someone else? That's the system we're looking at!

???

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Other.Detail&id=856

I think Yoss is saying that we're trying to get a penalty system for death, not another reward system. (haha, I consider it a reward... )

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Moreso I am pointing out how much of a slap in the face it is to the players who want for their fight against other PCs to matter, to make an impact, to take them out of the game, even if only temporarily so that their plans can proceed. It just ignores that and says, "If you want your own death to matter, I'll give you...DCs! XP! Whatever it takes to continue to perpetuate the gross imbalance in victories!"

A good percentage of the players here allready try to avoid pvp at all costs.

I would probably stop playing Amia if death penalties lasted weeks. Keep in mind that this would also promote alt-ism. Many of the ideas presented in this topic would drive more players away. While I want death to have some lasting impact for pvp, I think people can just start playing a different character during the time their other is penalized.

If a penalty token is put into your inventory upon death, can't people find ways of preventing this (cheating) by keeping their entire invintory full so nothing new can enter?

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cant say I like the idea of spells not working as they are ment to with the death system.

Heal "Heal enables you to channel positive energy into a creature to wipe away injury and afflictions." so would make you all 100% better, Greater Restoration is the sameboat more or less. I would rather make it so the spells work as they are ment to given its how they are ment to.


see I thought back when they changing heal potion they were going make it all IC and do a DM story of it and remove it from all the stores.claim heal potions were all be sold at a massive loss from the church but from donations..ect were able to deal with it, till adventuring population increased and thier over use of heal potions drained them dry ontop of the lack of said adventurers hording all thier gains not putting money back into the church. then I assumed they would have just coded a new potion sold at shops that was weaker, like 50% heal and the cooldown or something.


but back to the topic of the death system, if it rewarded RP actions to make it better I would say fine, if you are resting in town taking it easy,maybe at a temple,seeing a cleric...ect but having to be logged on and on said player and that would reduce the time on it, because it would be stupid that a person who plays one person RPing attempting to get better would take as long to recover as a person with 1000 alts who just hops to diffrent character or maybe invests no time on thier gimp

make the timer X days multiplied by active number in character vault,something to not reward people just playing diffrent players... or we could allways make it so people have a limit of 2 in the character vault, that would show everyone MUHAHAHAHA.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

And now we have come full circle. Most people avoid PvP because

A) it has zero enforced consequences
B) there is no enforced loss of memory

So in cases, A and B, as an evil player, it is currently impossible to win in PvP.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

If the point being made by this is that the server is going to be made not to be fun anymore, I'd like to point out that I will just go somewhere that is actually fun <.<

Edit: That being said, I love Amia. I trust the staff to be create a fun environment. But I think we need to be careful of adding things that will make leveling pointlessly tedious. We're seeing a nice swell in players,, and some of these ideas could work really well with the current and growing size of the community. Just need to be careful with it.

I played on a server where when you died you couldn't gain xp from monsters for 10 minutes x your level. When I died on there on my level 19 barbarian and I was alone, or the group I was couldn't raise me due to restrictions on raise dead, I logged the fuck out.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

More just poking fun at Svensk for being over the top.

I will say that I am disappointed right now in seeing precisely what many players who left the server claimed as their reason for doing so: player unwillingness to capitulate to solid mechanical disadvantages that yield positive advantages to other players. It is like playing Monopoly with you, and when I land on your hotel, I pay you because I have a sense of fairness and enjoy putting my top hat in a position where I have to scrape for cash to build houses and get you back. When you land on my square, you don't have to pay me because suddenly it isn't fun anymore and you would rather just go somewhere else.

It's not an issue just evil players have with PvP.

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"The world takes and takes, even things that aren't offered. Finally, it gave us something back; I wish he was here to share it with me."

Oh I fully understand that. I can see how it impacts both sides. I was just saying that for emphasis, because it's usually good players who attack evil ones.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Or at least the good players who usually outnumber and beat the faces in of the evil ones.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

Can we not turn it into a Good vs Evil debate and make all of our ideas work across the board?

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

Oh, well with that clarification I'm a lot less concerned about it. Like I said, I trust the staff here because I've been playing here for several months and had plenty of fun the whole time. I'd be fine seeing some of these things enacted. But some people have gone so far as to say "Dieing should make it so the game is not fun" in terms that I am obviously paraphrasing. I don't feel like it would be productive to Amia in the sense that we're trying to make it an enjoyable game.

This is the sort of arguement that leads to a hunger, thirst, and sleep system. Needless to say, I don't like Arelith <.<

Also:


+1

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

There are some very poorly thought ideas being presented here, and there are some very well-thought out and sensible ideas presented here. The DM Team, which consists of designers, too, are capable of making the distinction. Most of us were made DMs in the first place because we possess that magical capacity to think beyond ourselves and actually look at what effects/impacts the server as a whole, all players, across the proverbial board, instead of just pitching an idea that ignores these factors or expects others to mitigate it accordingly or, worse, pitching an idea and supporting it merely based on the fact that it is our idea in the first place.

Incidentally, I am borrowing a little from column A and a little from column B and running mental calculations.

People somehow seem to think difficult and harsh isn't fun. That's nonsense. It's undeniable that real danger goes hand in hand with real gratification. An actual rush of adrenaline is a good feeling. If harsh wasn't fun, why would Dark Souls be so lauded? People will usually take the easy way out if given a choice, but that doesn't mean they know what's best for them. Being forced to bite the bullet will generally improve the overall experience, even if it doesn't feel like that at the moment of death. I know this as a fact from my experience on a server where you lost 1/3 of your XP and potentially all your gear from a PvM death and couldn't respawn without DM permission after PvP. Dying itself wasn't "fun" but the whole experience certainly was.

I'm not entirely sure this whole discussion is quite on the mark, though. I just don't see what memory loss could contribute, and it's not really about giving evil more chances to do something. We really shouldn't focus on "what we need to change so I can do this to you" but rather what we can change to make the possibility of death itself an enjoyable source of real adrenaline and anxiety for everyone to enjoy. If nothing matters to you as a player and all you're after is casual fun, you'll never actually have real fun. Fun comes from getting your stomach twisted in a knot at the prospect of losing everything, and then pulling through. Or not.

I don't believe in mechanical solutions, to be honest. I think PvP death should not allow for respawning, period, so you actually need to get raised or contact a DM. There's no reason you should be allowed to use the OOC "respawn" option in meaningful RP. Our frequent resets make it a little unpractical, and people are just terrified by the prospect of "permadeath" so I doubt it will ever happen. But baroque systems of penalties and timers still dodge the issue at the core: if you'll always get away and the most you need to worry about are some temporary penalties, you won't experience that real anxiety as a player that makes the game worth playing.

I'm well aware some people will maintain they have a different idea of fun. That's no doubt true in some cases, but I'm willing to bet most people latching onto their casual and easy entertainment just haven't experienced anything better and would quickly change their minds.

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Phearnum's proposed system looks interesting, and certainly an opportunity for additional RP and better immersion.

I understand some might consider that this partial loss of fighting ability alters their enjoyment of the game. I doubt such a temporary IC consequence of IC actions would drive people away from Amia, though. The contrary would be disappointing.
Hell, if anything, a wounded PC can get a job in game...

As stated above, the whole death/corpse/cleric argument has been debated before.
Nothing breaks immersion more than OOC chatter / tells such as : "someone died in the Spires, do you know who can log in with a cleric ?"

HOWEVER, Amia's nice praying system could be used to foster the role of Clerics here.
Adding an option to Phearnum's proposed system :
A God blessing would lessen the penalty (partial stat recovery, shortens time to full healing... there are options).
(Praying must occur before a raise or within X minutes after respawn)

- any faithful would have a (the existing 40% ?) chance of blessing when praying. Adding requirement to be near his/her god Idol would spice it up.
- any party-member Cleric, Druid (following a god with animal/plant domains), High-level blackguard, paladin etc... (as per existing bonuses) could pray before raising to increase chance of blessing (or roll on less punitive wound table ?)
- praying in temples could grant additional bonus.
- faithless would be left alone with their pain for the full duration.

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Nana Anvilmar - Slower Talking, Faster Running
Lester, Jester, Chandler, Alchemister !
Pauris Sennemen de Laelith - Merchant (currently in Suzail, Cormyr)
Metzlitemoctzin - Payit slave, now freed from Silent's sadostyle of plotting !

Wow, I actually love that idea. Who are you and why are you so smart?

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Boy this is going to be so fun. I can't wait for the next 13 year old kid to log on with his monk build and stunning fist me for permanent results because I accidently cut in front of him on the loot order and decided to make a character that doesn't expressly conform to every "build rule" out there but instead was made to confer a theme.

On the note of most of the players that consciously avoid most pvp. Its not because we are worried about the consequences but more about the "requirements" that were fulfilled before hand. Rewarding people for building another wiz29/bard1 build or any of the half dozen other super builds out there and then encouraging them to substitute a dramatic story for twenty five seconds of anticlimax that ends in stunfist/devcrit/or bigby's is not in my opinion one of the problems this server is having. It is not hard to figure out what are these solid builds and when ever I see someone just walking around all hard guy just dying to use them, it seriously makes me want to die. In the end this just shows a lack of externally driven goals, for a myriad of reasons.

Its really disappointing to see this getting discussed so deeply when there are people actually roleplaying their asses off and not getting a single DC for it.

And then you can report him for breaking PvP rules.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Why? Its IC? Technically. If he really whats to be a troll about it he can just say that his character is very strict about "getting paid" and he takes no crap. Then by reporting him I take something that is little and make it big, all the while risking the possibility of labeling myself a "whiner" for it. In my experience this would fly. The idea of an "out" can be so amorphous and undefined that it could be anything. Its just needless and plays to a mentality that I would hope this server is above.

PS I do think a thirty minute memory loss would be a good idea. Its been done on other servers and seems easy enough to keep track of and gets rid of a lot of the "looper" effect.

How are you being a labelled a "whiner" for reporting someone who is breaking the rules.



You could use such a blanket statement on any of Amia's rules. Sure, if my character walks into Cordor without DM supervision, despite being banned there, I can sit there and write.. "Why? It's IC?" but no, it's against the rules, and therefore, players don't have to deal with that shit. When it happens, take screenshots, if it is deemed to be a rule breaking scenario send them to a DM, and you will have no permanent results, and the person who did the infringement will be punished or warned accordingly.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

*deep breath* Ok either way the point of what I am saying is being missed. It can just as easily be something trite as "I don't like that you are wearing blue." to the ever present completely over reacting to a joke, or more than likely the baiting of people to expressly pvp them. Its all IC, and yeah.. its legal. You can do that. Its done all the time. I don't think you can really make it illegal, nor that it should be because its too grey an area.

What I am saying is that everyone is so worried about the consequences of pvp yet have hardly any consideration for what starts it and that all these measure will only seek to reward those who play the same half dozen or so power builds rather than encourage deeper roleplay.

See nwn is not hard to figure out. Even with all the scripting in the world its clear whats best, whats better, and whats not. Its a fact of life that they will mechanically dominate, but encouraging people to be trigger happy and rp being "bad asses" because they play a small list of builds that were figured out years ago is not in my opinion conductive to much of anything. I feel that often those most concerned with "consequences" to their pvp are those that have made builds expressly for it and feel "robbed" because ultimately their often anticlimatic, shallow, and one dimensional approach is not given "the respect" it deserves. This often leads into the "alt itis" I see, where player makes uber build, player acts upon the desire to "flex" said uber build, uber build gets their day then nothing much more because well.. uberbuild has mechanics but often lacks substance. Player wonders why uberbuild is not king of the world, or treated as such, figures its because uber build wasn't strong enough (or uber build got beat once by something and now is worthless to player), so Player makes -another- uber build, and the cycle begins again.

I will say this. I have played the part of the bad ass, with a build that would get stomped by most of those written in the "to catch a fish" thread. But its the -way- I roleplayed them. Its -how- I presented the character. Its -why- they were what they were that made them so believable, and so respected.

You can't solve an immersion issue with mechanics. You have to do your best to exemplify by -your- roleplay and foster a roleplay culture among this server that emphasizes the gravity of death and the consequences of combat.

No matter what additional penalty death is given, I would still play my characters as I do currently. I don't charge into battle without preparing for it or having some measure of strategy. For me, the current death system keeps me away from death enough, so I don't think any more punishment is really needed from my perspective, but that doesn't mean I'm not up for some change in how death works.

I have noticed that some characters are just bad at combat and tend to die a lot because they do not employ thoughtful strategy in combat (I'm not sure if these players are role playing a stupid character or not). Making the game more annoying by penalizing a whole party of players doesn't seem all that nice, and it can potentially kill the fun for 5 people and not just one.

I'm against punishment for death that makes the game less fun, but I would endorse an idea that allowed for more potential role-play.

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Actually, it's not. There's quite a bit of class combinations to choose from and alot of Amia's are custom and deviate from the norm which means
is not necessarily accurate or even true.



Ironically, making a good build and being a good RP'er aren't mutually exclusive. It's kind of sad that this theme repeats itself.



I don't think anyone is wondering that, actually. I think you're just missing the entire point of this discussion, truthfully.

---

Let me try to help you out.

You're roleplaying as an assassin, and you want to eliminate a political influence on Cordor just before a certain court hearing, to make him late, or not show up, to potentially change the outcome of the vote by his absence; and you decide to pick him off! Great. You stalked him to his home, while he's dressing for his appearance, and now you have your perfect opportunity to assassinate him and do something that could change the plot. Joe, the political influence, sees you, because you don't get one shotted in this game, and your nametag is floating above your helmet, and keeps that in Joe's player's head, even after Joe dies. Joe may or may not miss the meeting, because Joe might just decide that he really wants to roleplay, so upon getting OOC raised, he fast tracks to his meeting and pretends that he never died.

Joe may tell everyone what he saw right away, or maybe Joe might tell people alot later on when they forget that it might potentially be considered metagaming. Either way, the said assassin has accomplished nothing whatsoever, and no plot, or anything useful has been added to further the depth of our story. The assassin also runs a high probability now of being OOCly banned from this city on top of all that.

PvP doesn't have to be instigated by people that have good builds; that know how to play and often times, those people don't have anything to prove, or care much to get involved in these situations anyways. In my personal experience, I was dragged into PvP almost every single time. I think there's a time and a place for PvP (no, obviously not all the time.) But it certainly can add flavor to the story if it's done in a meaningful manner.

I do think that some players would do a little better with a timeout when they died in PvP. It might help give them time to cool off (since alot of people take it personally). It might give them the time to properly come up with a good way to use the roleplay to create a new thread for their character. I've been in too many situations where people just get up and walk off like nothing happened whatsoever. That has nothing to do with builds, and nothing to do with powergaming. That just has to do with people being unable to accept consequences and realize that they aren't their character, and that it could actually enhance, not only damage their experience on Amia.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I never said a good build and good roleplay are mutually exclusive nor intended it. I am not one of those masochists that like to make 16 charisma weapon masters with no divine abilities. I am not attacking many people that play the more powerful builds, many are good roleplayers. But in my argument I was saying that it is those often concerned with "making people pay" with heavy consequences for losing mechanical twenty second battles, that almost certainly play these builds and lack the roleplay gravity that should go along with actually killing someone. No not so much for a stand point of "Well my character would do that, he is bad ass like that." but rather from the view point of "Will this combat have any meaning, will it further the story in a way that isn't just more cyclical pvp."

Guys... We could fill 200 pages with information on what builds can do what in PvP and PvE (as if we haven't already), but right now the topic of discussion is:

Death, Dying, and What ideas do you, the players, have on what we can do to improve the experience for -everyone-. Let's try to keep the focus on that.

I am not saying there will necessarily even be a catch-all answer that will nicely fit all meanings of IG death, but, we as a community tend to be on the creative side (we all play in role play based fantasy world after all) and I have faith that as a community we can either find either something new or a nice fix to the present system that everyone can agree on.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I think that simply making raise scrolls more expensive or harder to get makes death more avoidable, and it makes clerics more wanted. It's not a total revamp of how death works, but I think it can make players avoid death a bit more.

Also, I think blindness/defness on dead characters can reduce metagaming.

If just these changes are implimented, it would be a step in the right direction. I don't want to have clerics required to be in every party because then about one fifth of all characters would have to be clerics, and it will reduce the diversity on the server. Clerics should be helpful, but not required for a party.

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+99999

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Erm, that targets PvM death. That's irrelevant. I don't mind if PvM death got some change as well, but Amia's design doesn't create a scary survival atmosphere anyway. I don't care if you rush headfirst into some fire giants and die over and over again. People won't RP on hunts any more than they currently do no matter how you change that death. It's PvP death that could use a change.

I doubt we'll ever come to a conclusion that satisfies everyone, because we seem to have completely opposite ideas about what's wrong with the system and what we want to change. We should keep the issues of PvM death and PvP death seperate. The latter is clearly of more importance.

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To keep you apprised, we are currently looking at the feasability of a little overhaul to our death system. When we have it solidly in mind, we will get your feedback before proceeding. After all, these things affect you way more than me (us).

In that case i might have something useful to say.



Ergo, killing people to accomplish things is not possible, and often times hurtful to yourself. Let's say the assassin is a member of the target's community, disguises himself and secretly tries to kill him. Even if the assassin succeeds at the hit, the player of the victim character will know who killed him OOC'ly, which, deny all you want, will make him metagame subconsciously in future relations with that character.

I'm not saying this is the core issue here, but for me personally (and i feel like this is an accurate generalization), it makes pvp that i want to initiate a pointless risk of screwing my character over, even if i succeed. I mean really, assassination is a tool that was present throughout the entire history of mankind on all levels of society, to make or break kingdoms, to eliminate a rival to a woman's heart. And here we simply can't have that.

So if that's out of the question, what's left? Openly beating the crap out of people to stroke your ego and flex your build, that you know won't have severe consequences for your character.


It can, but generally it doesn't. Every single pvp encounter i've gotten myself into (was dragged into) was situational, over trivial matters and meaningless. My last pvp death however, even though it was caused by bullies (i quote: "Oh look, a necromancer. *dislikes*"), i chose to roleplay to the full extent, accepting all consequences. And sure, i was dead for a week, it was a good event in itself, involving many characters, but it was only a fix to a silly situation, with no relation to my killers and no plot development which would include them.

Did i have the urge to ignore the whole thing, hit respawn and forget about it? Hell yes, like i did many times before, because "this makes no sense at all, why should i care". But honestly, after i've gotten over the initial frustration and pushed a followup plot into motion, i didn't even mind that my main character was dead for a week, it was quite enjoyable to watch how events regarding my corpse unfold, whether they succeed in bringing me back or not.



Still, taking the initiative to make the best out of stupid deaths is not the answer here. You can do that individually which is praiseworthy, but that doesn't change anything globally. We need a death system that will make people respect pvp and death, instead of escalating situations in seconds without fear of consequences if they lose.

If a revised death system is to be implemented, it should be something very simple that would make people more cautious about going out of their comfort zones to do stuff, be concerned about their security, and have a plan in case they die.

In short, be f*ing realistic.

They would become more social, seeking to surround themselves with friends who will back you up when venturing into the unknown, and care for you if you fall. They would become smarter, not rushing into the face of danger without a second thought.

And finally, they would perceive death as a fatality, not inconvenience, and be more wary of the possibility that someone wishes to see you dead. Because if you can choose to ignore your death and not fear it, you're missing out big time in life.



I've been following the recent discussions about improving Amia since the beginning, trying to figure out what's the single thing about Amia that bothers me most, that if changed, would improve my experience. I think it's finally becoming clear to me, that despite many flaws in the module, the one thing that stands out and in the way of immersion and thrill i'm seeking, is the death system.

I mentioned earlier how i almost quit until i started playing in the drow society, which is the only thing i'm really into now, except few minor exceptions. It makes more sense, it's dangerous, yet it still is not what i'm looking for. I often see the same pattern emerge that's caused by the lack of fatal consequences: characters act unrealistic and reckless, or are completely ignoring death as a consequence that can impede their progress, myself included.

Drow that raise to power become targets, yet the fear of dying is non existent which creates a false sense of security, illusion of immortality and everlasting power. I'm not saying that one cannot be removed from his place by non violent means, i'm saying that the possibility for the crude option would enrich our immersion greatly. It would feel realistic for a priestess or a matron to stay in her house, surrounded by guards, out of fear of assassins, instead of going about her usual business, knowing that no one can possibly harm her. It's unreal.

Some will most likely think that this would promote pvp as a faster, easier way to resolve matters, i think this would increase realism, immersion and create positive roleplay opportunities.



As for immediate solutions, that remains for the DM's to work out, though as i said there's no need to over complicate things in my opinion. A simple X hour cooldown after pvp death would suffice. Say, hell, even if it was as much as 24 hours to automatically respawn without help of other PC's, and only 1-4 hours if someone is Resurrecting you, would that be such a big deal to bear with? I think not.

Pardon me, would be nay sayers, but a mechanical solution that makes you dead for a while will only hurt those that die a meaningless death, and those who were not prepared for it.



As for deliberate assassinations, i still feel like this is something worth taking a look into. If it would require thorough planning, extensive RP and preparations to have a request approved and be executed? Is there any harm done, do we lose something if we go about it that way? We'd make a lot of effort to use pvp in a meaningful way, instead of the act being the black sheep among player interactions.

Perhaps DM's could even grant a widget, if that's possible to script, that would conceal the identity of the assassin's character and player to prevent metagaming.



My 2 cents.

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Mark it zero!

There are two things I want to comment on, as they were mentioned as counter arguements to the system suggestion I presented.


The first is the healing system. I will preface this with a small reminder. Amia has this weird style that our level 30 characters, which is a very high epic level in the game setting, is actually not as powerful as the characters in the regular D&D setting. This means Vangerdahast is not a level 17 wizard on amia, but more around level 40. What this however causes is that amia shifted from the high fantasy d&d setting into the very high fanasty amia setting, where there are more characters who can cast enormously powerful spells.

Having an overflow of high level clerics and high level equipment in the amia setting also means that we have very easy access to usually rare spells and potions like heal and greater restoration, yet their descriptions and effects remain untouched. With that there is a very understandable ic justification that wounds, poisons, curses, malignant effects and death is something not really that scary, as if you go to cordor square you will likely find three characters who can remove it with a simple incantation.

My suggestion of the wounding system in PvM and PvP includes a healing revision I hinted at. My suggestion would be to move such healing spells away from very high fantasy to at least high fantasy (even if I would prefer low fantasy myself). This means that with the next hak addition, I would like to see the spell descriptions altered to reflect that they do not heal and cure everything, and that the body needs to heal over time at least a small portion of the effects.

Perhaps make the last 10% of the characters health only restorable through resting, in other words, restore the necessity for the body to heal from the trauma. Spells like Greater Restoration should not remove all effects, but perhaps only 1d3. In my eyes that makes complete sense, unless we say we want to play in a d&d setting where the majority of the characters are epic, and hence keep the current amtmosphere. I for one prefer we would not.


The second point is the exploitation of the system. I have played on amia for seven years and most of my characters were conflict oriented. Experiences where I was griefed or someone pked my character without reason are so rare that I simply can not think that we need to be so fearful of some possible douchebag. I am sure they exist, but to avoid a death system with light consequences to encourage better conflict roleplay simply because someone may be an ass does not convince me. It just makes it feel like we can not as a community take the slightest penalty and must always win - something that drove great players away in the past.

You have the DMs that could remove the ill effects if neccessary and ban the person. And even then the ill effects he can cause are so minor. He can not delevel you, he can not make the character not playable, he can not permakill you, he can not take gold or gear way. All he can do is give you a small penalty for a week or two, at the most a medium penalty for three weeks, which a DM can easily correct if the case calls for it.


Let us please also remember "harsher" penalties are not the only thing that makes people choose to go because they do not have fun. Clinging to no penalties, as time has shown, also had the server lose many excellent players. I find it a bit short sighted to point the finger in only one direction. Fighting for the status quo does not necessarily mean the best for the server, the reason why we have such discussion.

Why? Pure fact we have lvl 30 characters means we ARE in very high fantasy. And yes, that means there are people who can stop time, bring back from dead people dead for centuries, and in general, cast spells that can alter reality itself. Trying to push for some "lower" fantasy, more "realistic" feeling is downright useless IMHO as long as this power level is viable in general.
You want more realistic system, where clerical abilities mean more? Drop max level to 15, or 10. High level healing spells are meant to be powerful and downright "cure-it-all".
"Sorry buddy, I can raise your grandfather who died in battle 120 years ago, but you see, that leg wound, you'll have to rest for a week or so."
Yeah right.

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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

Well, if I think people would go to a max level of 15 I would have suggested that already. Because that will not fly, I suggest we go for 30s having all their sparkly abilities, but just have them lose grandeour in power.

And why? I think I awnsered that in previous posts.

I like most aspects of Phearnun's system from the standpoint of it being progressive, random, and treating PvP more harshly than PvM.

The only thing I'd quarrel with is duration as I think those presented are too long. I'd suggest the maximum penalty be 10 days for severely wounded and half that for the others. We're roleplaying in a magical world where things that simply aren't possible in RL can and do occur every day, that includes accelerated healing. I don't know about you all, but when I'm playing I'm playing every day. While I support enforcing RPing the trauma post an encounter gone bad I don't want this:

Day 1: Tell the sad story of your terrible defeat to friends and allies. I'm injured, weak and recovering.
Day 2: Tell the sad story of your terrible defeat to anyone you missed on day one.
Day 3: Tell the sad story of your terrible defeat to "John" a new arrival to your city as he begins his adventuring career killing goblins on the frontier for a bit of coin.
Day 4: Tell the sad story of your terrible defeat to anyone who will listen as you limp around Cordor shopping for a crutch to replace your wheelchair.
Day 5: Craft a strategy to avenge your terrible defeat.
Day 6: Tell your allies.
Day 7: Tell the allies you missed yesterday.
Day 8: Tell "John" who is now a journeyman adventurer killing Sand Minotaurs in Khem.
Day 9: Tell anyone in Cordor who will listen as you shop for a cane to replace your crutch.
Day 10: Visit the Salandra Temple for physical therapy.
Day 11: A new faction is born on Amia and you tell the story to it's founder.
Day 12: During physical therapy "John" brings you a belt from the Fire Giant King.
Day 13: More physical therapy.
Day 14: Yet more physical therapy.
Day 15: The nurses know your entire life story including your terrible defeat and your strategy to avenge.
Day 16: While taking physical therapy "John" shows off his collection of Maximus's leg bones.
Day 17: The nurses tell you the new faction you heard of is now changing world events.
Day 18: While you are in physical therapy, Empires are born.
Day 19: "John" has 23 million gold coins in the bank and tells you no creature on Amia can defeat him in single combat.
Day 20: Empires fall into ruin.
Day 21: During physical therapy you hear the new faction is now defunct and "John" has retired to a quiet life on the mainland.
Day 22: You suddenly feel better.

Yes, I'm exaggerating a bit and I know you can still do things mechanically with a penalty. Speed of plot and all that. Tons of things happen even in 10 days RL time. I know I've traveled for a week RL, come back to the game and have to catch up on a multitude of sometimes major events I've missed. There's a difference between having an impact on an opposing pc, and turning it into the rp equivalent of beating a dead horse.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

There's already no grandeur in power anyhow, considering number of lvl 30 toons around. It's almost a norm.
"What, you're lvl 30 epic wizard? Here's your membership card, welcome to the community. So, how many times did you waste pirate today?"

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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

I understand where you are coming from. Let me expand a bit on where I am.

If you go 5 days for lesser and critical wounds, and ten days for severe wounds it may have already been nutered. It means if I pvp someone every second day (for the sake of arguement I am very bad at it) and die, I would not be hit with a severe wound. Only when I begin to pvp 3 times within a work week and I lose each time, would I be hit with the consequences.

It was my hope my system would lessen the amount of pvp encounters to make them be important story points, and I think that can only happen if they are a bit more on the toughness of my suggestion.




Do not take this as me being an ass, but you just exactly described a part of the type of mentality I dislike most about this server.

Gabe is right. We have to treat it that way or the suspension of disbelief reaches criticall mass around the question, "Why has Amia not taken over all of Toril and most Abeir, too?"

That is a rhetorical question. If I don't point that out I will have crackpots struggling to give that a serious answer.

Haha, we wouldn't know what to do with them if that ever did happen

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Nobody's fighting suspension of disbelief, I just find it strange to allow such level of power and then trying to tone it down with some completely artifical solutions for the sake or "realism".
It's really hard to consider these things when people can power grind from 0 to hero in less then a week, many of them solo, without any actual need to RP with anyone. And it's really hard to consider being powerful mage anything special when every second toon around here runs with epic spells and summons.
Lover maximum character level. Make leveling slower/dependent on others so each level actually counts and it's real achievement in advancement of your character. Make acquiring powerful/epic spells that everyone takes for granted harder, not just picking them from a list when you level. Make people RP seriously before grinding to max level and then saying "Ok, now I'm almost on equal playing ground, lemme just epic loot hunt for a month till I sort out my gear and then, plans of world domination, here I come!" (I have actually heard this more then a couple of times).

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"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." - Antoine de Saint-Exupry

@ Phearnun - I see your point too. Only the worst cases would get to severely wounded as you'd have to be a frequent, perpetual loser in these scuffs. Question: In your draft system would the timer on seriously wounded run out 3 weeks from when you got your first critical or 3 weeks from when you got your last? Here's another scenario. You get clubbed a couple times, you are sitting there with 2 critical wounds and you've got them for 2 weeks, then near the end of it just as you are near full recovery, you get assassinated by a contract hit (insert RP here). Now you are seriously wounded for 3 more weeks. That's a 5 week stint where you are damaged goods.

@ Remal - If I were to concieve a system aligned to what you seem to be advocating it might look something like the below, but perhaps I'm reading you wrong:

- Levels up to 25 are gained normally at which point normal XP gain ends.
- Levels from 25-30 can only be gained by burning DC's at X DC's per level.

I can hear the complaints of DC favoritism and timezone DM coverage already but it requires a certain amount of recognized RP to acheive "grandeur of power". Clearly, I'm not afraid to throw out dumb ideas. What's the saying? The only dumb ideas are someone else's ideas.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

Almost every post made since my last post are insane. I don't think things will need to be changed as drastically as some of what you have presented. Let's not nerf Amia to make it more realsitic. If I want realism, I'll experience real life.

Remember also that you can't make everyone role-play to the extant you do. Everyone wants a little bit of a different experience on this server, and if you make it more exclusive, fewer people will want to be here.

Back on topic, I think that more than a few days for a penalty for pvp death would be too much. It effectively kills the buzz. Not being able to interact with your cohort or companion when rp has recently been quite tasty in the past few days/weeks because someone pvp'd them can make alt-itis an even more common thing, and even not playing at all more common (what other options are there when you can't use your main character for a week?).

Honestly, I think that a -2 to all stats for a 24-hour period would be enough of a penalty. Let's not get crazy and let's start small- if this isn't enough, the penalty can get increased.

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A week is crazy, i don't know who came up with that idea, but it's silly. Several hours up to 24 seems within reason for me. And don't exaggerate with the alt-itis argument, it's not like after Yoss's essay everyone suddenly archived all but 1 character...

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Mark it zero!

Just because you have -2 to some or all stats doesn't mean you can't use your character. Freaking roll with it.

That said, I'm undecided on all this. It seems a bit massive, but it could be nifty. I agree, though, that longer than a week is ridiculous. Why does the system have to be complicated? A few hours to 24 hours is kind of pointless, though, since you can't PvP the same person within 24 hours anyways, and likely that would be the only person you would try to PvP (at least it is unless you are trying to attack everyone in sight). I would say maybe two or three days, a week as most if it was 'critical'. Or, hell, make it a couple of days and people can choose to RP beyond that (see Mental Trauma).

Is PvPing really this big of a deal right now, though? I haven't heard of any going on lately.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Heh, I actually like the scenario you brought up and the possibility to hit an already wounded person on the road to recovery. However, I think that more than the general idea outlined by me is not worth discussing outside of it's own thread with people who can see the bigger picture (DMs, designers and testers). It is a draft, and penalties, time, how they add up, how they can be removed and all that would need to be looked and balanced for the best outcome.

You can also make it less gruesome without removing the threat. For instance the chance of recovery increases over time for every week (chance roll after 1week), and the maximum time is the one 2 and 3 weeks. There are a lot of neat possibilities to flesh it out. Perhaps tied to the job system or prayer system to help it promote rp.

Regeneration presents a problem for any such wound system as well. Spells aside, there are plenty of items that have regeneration or vampiric regeneration on them that should (gradually) knit together any wounds.

Isn't DnD a magical setting where wounds can be healed with spells? Done in battlefields, and etc? Why can't people get used to the fact that wounds can be healed magically and instanteneously? It was so in the rulebooks when it all began.
I mean, they can make skeletons walk again, people have dragon wings, fighters that can bend metal with their muscle.
A bit of rp never hurt anyone, and sore parts can be roleplayed properly if the occasion calls, making it a norm would blunt the more fruitfull, occasional, wounded rp, and just seem odd really.

But, what if the char that respawns, actually had to visit a temple and actually make a "ressurection contract", paying with gold, and receiving a token for respawn? At the very least it's make them think twice before respawning back to action, rather they'd choose to go back to their deity temple and talk to their priest, it could cost a 10% of wealth anyway, as it's a contribution to the temple rather then a fixed price. Also the priest responsible might ask for a 24h resting period before another contract because he's "exhausted", as that was the actual drawback of a ressurection in PnP, tired priest, and not gimped adventurer.