It's been some time now since these two new prestige classes were introduced into the server now, so I'm interested in what people think of them. To say they were a lot of work to integrate is no understatement, but I don't regret it and think they were worth the time spent on scripting, balancing and testing them. And then testing them some more.

As a bit of background history, they first came about when discussing the last hak update, we were intending to rename the Harper Scout and Purple Dragon Knight into more generic names, so that more people could take them without worrying about the Harper/Cormyr connection. However, after one slow afternoon later and we had changed our minds to, "What the hell, let's just remake the classes!"

I suppose Knight Commander could be taken as a marriage between the traditional tank classes found in MMORPGs of today (hence the 'Taunt' skill), the Marshal D&D class and most heavily, the Paladin character from the Diablo series. From the beginning, I wanted the class to be focused on something different to what's already available - I mean, we could have made a variant Divine Champion/Fighter, but where's the fun in that? If we're going to invest our time into something, may as well go the whole way and make it something completely unique to the rest of the classes in Neverwinter. The auras themselves eschewed from raw Attack Bonus, Armor Class bonuses, and so forth. I figured Bard Song already does that, and didn't want to simply make it a more Fighter-ish flavour of the Bard class. Not only that, but adding these bonuses on top of an already incredibly powerful Bard Song feat could end up rather ridiculous. Instead, opting for a focus of 'controlling' the battlefield through movement speed decreases, taunts and movement speed increases helped fit the theme for me. The only exception to this rule would be Shield Ally, because this was basically the sole feat people used to take Purple Dragon Knight for, so I didn't want to get rid of it completely.

Master Scout took longer to create. We went through many brainstorming sessions and the feats/requirements were jiggled around more than a few times following suggestions from Mosh and Tormak. One of the original concepts Tormak and I had discussed was a 'terrain specialist', where you would choose the kind of terrain your Scout would focus on (such as Snow, City, Forest) and you would receive benefits in those areas. Similar to how a Weapon Master can master more than one weapon in epic, a high level Master Scout could have been more proficient in multiple terrains.

This was dropped, though, since after looking into it, it seemed to be a bit too much work for what would be a very specialised class, so it become the more general Master Scout class we have today. This is my personal favourite of the two, and I've always wanted to make a character myself to use it. Alas, no such opportunity has presented itself. Maybe one day. Perhaps not unsurprisingly, it owes much of its inspiration to the Scout class from D&D, though it's also an amalgamation of the 3.5 D&D Ranger, which I'm a huge fan of. Due to the crafting options and all the custom scripted trinkets it has, it also ended up being more work than the Knight Commander, despite being outwardly more simple in concept. Selmak helped out here and scripted the trinkets themselves.

Anyway, it might be that these aren't the end of the custom created classes Amia will have in the future. It's been discussed a fair few times already of other potential classes, some based on the Amian setting itself. I personally enjoyed creating the two classes enough to have another go at it, at least.

So, what do you think of these two classes? While input from the people who have already tried these classes might be considered more useful, I'm interested to hear all sorts of opinions either way. Do note neither of these classes are going to receive huge overhauls, however. The class requirements are also not going to change. But opinions on lore, abilities and potential bug fixes/improvements to their abilities are very much welcomed. It's been suggested to me already to include the Master Scout class for the purposes of determining Animal Companion strength, which seems a good idea. Similarly, I personally believe the Barricade of Swords feat for Knight Commander could do with a damage buff or an additional effect to make it more attractive. Finally, the Master Scout grenades definitely need a looking at to give them additional utility.

Have at it!

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

We already spoke of it but... seeing it's a survival class and often combined with ranger I'd love it if the companion would upgrade on the Master Scout levels too.

Some unique traps would be awsome too though that likely is a lot of work and possible better off for DC requests. Otherwise I loved the new Master Scout, very fun to play. I just find that going 5 more ranger levels is by far stronger than the 5 MS levels which can give the class so much flair, that mainly due to the companion.

Cannot say much about the KC I am affraid!

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I don't play either of these classes, but I will put my +1 on this thought.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

I've always found the entry requirements to be a bit too 'scattered' to ever seriously consider using either class. Both classes only seem to go with very specific class combinations to meet the requirements if you don't want to burn cross class skills. I also think Master Scout could benefit from full BAB, I don't think it'd unbalance anything.

I've tried them both. I cannot quarrel with the requirements, class skills, or available feats which is just as well since you aren't considering changing those.

I've found KC to be the more useful class. Barricade of swords is a bit underwhelming but other than that I couldn't complain. The only nagging irritation is that I prefer to see the aura circle all the time but it drops off on every transition so I keep having to reset them both. Pretty minor quibble.

Master Scout I had pretty high hopes for on my main but it's been a bit of a disappointment in the "Craft Survival Gear" department. The potions are ok, but duplicative of others in the game and pricey considering items like Boots of the Bull, Bovine Threat Ring, etc are around with good duration and uses per day. The grenades are nice to try once, but given the cost for a one time use, and lowish DC's I don't use them much. They could use something, although I have no idea what to suggest. The weapon essences are fine since they are unique, although I'd prefer if the duration were longer. In some areas they aren't an upgrade from a simple and cheap flame weapon scroll at 1/20th the cost, if there were even a minor benefit I'd spend the coin on them instead.

Rough Ideas:
1) Allow the class to make a custom trap unavailable anywhere else. Not sure if this is possible.
2) Trap upgrade options. One option would add damage. Another option would add to the DC. Another option would add a special effect. Once a trap got upgraded it could never be upgraded again, but it gives you a choice of how to configure the trap for a specific situation. Too complicated perhaps.
3) Tweak the grenades for additional usefulness.
4) Change potions to something besides ability buffs? Dunno. Maybe let them craft a gadget that mimics a spell effect (one time use or charges) instead of brewing potions.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

I haven't played either of these classes, so my opinion might not mean squat, but here goes. I like the Knight Commander from what I've read about it on the sidebar. Don't know all the mechanics but it looks like a fine compliment to a bard class. To aid the party it seems like a fine class and well designed, even it if it kind of crosses over the line to what a bard might add to a party.

As for the master scout there a few issues I have which seem out of place. For one, it's a scout not a warrior, scouts are not warriors so why is it designed to to allow people to top up all the feats which help saves. All I see it as is a way to get two feats in epic to up ones fort save. Even though a ranger is a warrior it is not supposed to be a front of the line, take the point kind of class. I, personally, see a scout as something more subtle. Maybe that's just me. As for the skill requirments, I like them, except for discipline and this is just me as again, I see it as something for pvp or to stop bosses from KDing ones PC. Just my two cents.


For the record, I'm not a build monkey so the five levels taken in epic might ruin a lot of builds and was probably though of by Sune and others who designed these two prestige classes.

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"Ain't it like most people, I'm no different, love to talk on things we don't know about." The Avett Brothers

Okay, so here's my feedback on Knight Commander - the auras feel awkward to roleplay. I love them, they're super cool, and I wouldn't change a thing about them, but the only explanation I've gotten thus far on how to roleplay them is that they are a result of the commands the KC gives his party members. I guess this works, but I think a class like knight commander should be more versatile then that. Unfortunately, I've hit a wall on idea for such. Anyone else have any thoughts or ideas? I would seriously love to hear them. Thanks guuuuuuys. <3

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I find myself agreeing, hence the mention in my original post.


To an extent, they were based off their 'original' class requirements, though made easier in both cases. Purple Dragon Knight requirements were very odd indeed. The Master Scout requirements are set up most obviously to be taken by Rangers, and Knight Commander by either Bards or Paladins. There are quite a few builds that can fit them in and benefit nicely from them, though, especially given both of them contain quite a bit of content for 5 levels. Master Scout feat requirements might seem slightly odd, but you essentially get those feats back via their bonus feats, anyway.

The lack of a full BAB is more a lore thing. They're a scout, not a fully trained warrior. Giving them full BAB doesn't make much sense in my mind.


I do agree the crafting items need more tweaking. They were intended to be a better, more thought-out version of the Harper Scout's items, which were decided with very little rhyme or reason. I think the entire survival gear needs a price cut, especially the ability buff potions. They were balanced for a time when gold was far, far easier to get than it is now, and has suffered as a result. Along with a price cut, the grenades probably need a change to the formula which calculates their DC so it will end up higher for those dedicated. Perhaps it could take Intelligence into the mix as well as Dexterity. The weapon essences could do with a duration upgrade to make them on par with Flame Weapon scrolls.


I think you might want to look at the assumption you have that a scout role is something for the weak and fragile. While they are not trained so well in the art of fighting (hence the lack of full BAB), they are not weak.

Mosh pressed this point a fair bit and to quote him - Mongol raiders, Scout Sniper, the Roman Auxilia. All of these were Master Scouts in their time. They are superbly disciplined light infantry which is what what Master Scout represents. Tough as nails, able-bodied and sound of mind. He's the scout that survives where other scouts fail. He can be the Rogue which learned that getting knocked down is a painful thing, or the Fighter who walked into a nest of traps. A Master Scout is the guy that carries the sealed documents knowing that if he's captured, he'll be killed as a spy. That requires a kind of discipline to overcome the fear. He's the guy whose out the front by himself, which also requires discipline to not break ranks.

With all this in mind, the Discipline requirements and the feats which focus on boosting saves are what fit the Master Scout best. None of these were to help encourage people to build for PvP, or something like that. We wanted to add more options to character concepts, not make a new 'necessity' class for powerbuilds to take like the old Shadowdancer and Palemasters pre-epic spell nerf.


Well, Bards are often brought up when they're spoken about, so you could take a leaf out of Bard Song itself. How do you RP that? Sitting in Cordor streets with your aura out barking orders at people is going to be absurd, naturally, but when in something like pre-battle in a DM event, it could be a nice opportunity to show off your PC's natural leadership and strategic skills to the other characters present.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

I would've possibly of RP'd the Aura's being tactical benefits from both commands, and moral, inspired by the Knight Commanders presence.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

I miss the good old instrument crafting of the harper scout class and the bardic benefits, aside that I applaud the changes. The master scout itself fits with many other characters.

Perhaps you could make an instrument crafter job to make Amian Stradivaris

Mt two cents on the Master Scout class - even though I've been gone for a while - is that I love the concept. There is no describing how well this fits my character and her concept and as soon as I read the class I thought to myself, "oh, Teriana needs to take this class." Aside from any crafting (haven't gotten level 2 yet), I took the class based on the bonus feats and what they represent. There's no other class out there that would both grant me Uncanny Dodge I, Nature Sense (and Trackless Step, but Teriana is already a ranger), and a permanent freedom effect, plus the nice battle hardiness that gives the feel that your character is a rather though opponent.

So let me give you guys a definite thumbs up for the class and the requirements do make sense to me. The first feat already starts to describe how tough the character has become, so discipline makes a lot of sense for a requirement and obviously craft trap due to the crafting of survival gear. The spot/listen/search - of course because the class is a scout and finally lore ... more or less because the scout does need to know generally about her surrounding and what's going on with the world. The only minor compliant I have at the moment is the fact that if you hold off until epic levels, you get much better bonus feats - but that's the same with the fighter. Just makes those that take it later a tad more powerful.

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"How a person masters his fate is more important than what his fate is." - Karl Wilhelm von Humboldt


(Teriana Alow)

One could take a note from Pathfinder's Cavalier class and incorporate the banner into the Knight-Commander. Cavaliers are forced to pledge themselves to an Order (it is their conviction and belief in a specific order that makes them cavaliers, after all), and when they wield a banner dedicated to that Order, it is an inspiring act. This would be cool to do with the Knight Commander if we had holdable banners, but we don't. Banner goes up, aura comes out. And on second thought, maybe it wouldn't be that cool because you couldn't sword and board, dual wield, or 2-hand, then.

However, you can take the idea of the banner - the tactile image of what you represent as a Knight Commander - and make that a focus for your auras.

I say add it and make it only obtainable through RP. Sort of like the Blackguards Book of Vile Secrets, or Shadowdancer's have to RP for their Shadow Jump. I would love to see things like this, it would encourage people joining factions in game. You could also give the power custom names based on the faction like "So and so use Banner of The Living Guard" or "Banner of the Triadic Knights" or "Banner of the Jarl Wardens." It would open up opportunities for RP, as well as requiring discretion on the part of the player on when and where they use it. For example... a Knight Commander in the Living Guard would frequently not find himself using it for those very reasons.

It's a lot like how I conceptualize playing a cleric. You get a lot of stuff, but there's a catch. Life will occasionally be made very, very difficult for you when you use that power. But the benefits are entirely worth it when you're out there channeling the holy wrath of your god.

In this case though, it would be worrying about what the Triadic Knight you're killing Yuan-Ti with would think if you popped out your banner of Tarkuul. It just sounds interesting to me, though I imagine a lot of people would complain that it's unbalancing for people who manage to get that reward from a faction as opposed to people who don't.

Some people will says "This rewards people who join cliques." And.. I retort as follows: Those "Cliques", as you call them, are groups that have formed for whatever reason through role playing and their own initiative. And active player run organizations work rather hard to get where they are. If it seems like they are uninclusive with major events, it is because those major events logically could not be open to the public. Like, for example, if the Triadic Knights found out about a secret plot by a cult of Bane to destroy the source of all cake or something. The Knights would need to move in order to stop this (because we all like cake) but they wouldn't really be able to afford tipping their hand by taking every Johnny Salami who walks through Kohlingen with them. Hence the need to work internally.

But that's just me opening a whole different can of worms anyway.

tl;dr I think adding a banner power with an RP requirement for KCs would be a really nifty idea!

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

All good points, never really thought about the master scout as a US Ranger type. Still a bit iffy about discipline though as I don't really see it as a mental aspect of a character as it is mechanically only used for KD and Disarm, I believe. I suppose it could be and probably is used by DM's in other regards; however, this seems almost like a social skill in this regard where ones mental toughness is called into question. Whether it is resisting the urge to flee in the face of danger or to be persuaded by another PC in the case of persuasion or bluff, I don't really see the difference. Both of these are forcing dice roles in which the player has no ability to do as s/he sees fit.

Also, please don't take my criticism as an attack on anyone personally as I know it must have been a ton of work to develop these classes and I'm not in any way trying to discredit the work which went into them only giving feedback where it was asked for. Cheers.

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"Ain't it like most people, I'm no different, love to talk on things we don't know about." The Avett Brothers

I really love the KC class and have had a lot of fun with the mechanics of it and its frankly impressive to me the work the DMs and testers etc have put into these custom classes. Haven't tried the scout and have no plans to as its not my sort of archetype.

Aside from the grafix of the command radius (its not a magical "aura") disappearing my only gripe with the class would be the skill and feat requirements. This stems that with a few exceptions I have always used a class as the mechanism to portray the character, what I mean by this is that a character might be a level X fighters and level X rogue multiclass but ICly he isn't some ex-soldier turned theif (and thus is not literally a fighter/rogue icly as well) but could be a street urchin who has grow up in the slums fighting for every scrap of food until he was old enough to learn some quality house breaking to better feed his needs.

And so alot of my KC characters are not bard or paladin based but ICly are still leaders of men and as its been established that the KC "auras" are not in anyway magical but are 100% mundane and simply represent the ability of the KC to command, influence, lead those of his group to better fight in formation as a team and hence get the various bonuses. I see no reason why a fighter or rogue (for example) can not legitimately take KC levels to portray this aspect of the person, but the cross class skilling makes no sense to me.

If the aura effect was some sort of magical offshoot of being a paladin or bard then that would be different but as they are more charismatic leaders I feel the skill and feats could be tweaked somewhat to better reflect the mundane nature of them.

Either that or revisit the entire skill list to revamp what I have always felt was a very poor skill system, but thats a topic for another thread.

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

I'd like to point out that in the light of this statement, Ordinance Support aura makes very little sense, definitely the SR reduction part.

Discuss.

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Mark it zero!

I have only tried master scout, and only the first three levels, but I am a definite "yay" to have MS levels count towards animal companion. As a ranger, the beast is your main asset, and giving up five levels of it is quite painful. Other than that, the potions could use a tweak or a price cut. Currently they are not worth making. And the grenades could be more useful too, and I would love something to tweak traps.

As for concept and feel, MS is one of the most interesting and awesome prestige classes ever.

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"Edwin do this, Edwin do that. Somebody get this jerk a banana!" - Edwin, BG II

Valygar 'Stonesnake' Stark -Human Ranger
Garret Smith - Archer and peddler of deity-statuettes
Dáin Saltbeard - Dwarven sailor and fencer. No, I'm not joking.

This all seems sensible.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

Master Scout

I think that it would upset the balance to give this class higher BAB as stated for many reasons before and I think that allowing the pet to scale on master scout levels also hurts balance. Those 5 levels are the least handsome for rangers to take, thats why most rangers are 25/4/1 or something thereof. This imho gives just to much incentive. I know it makes sense in a way that the pet scales but the scout seems more of an act alone type to me anyhow. Nobody has mentioned the +5 saves the class gets for a fairly good duration (enough for planned pvp or boss running easily). Other than that I cant really talk on the master scout class as a hole, the grenades seem near worthless, I haven't seen anybody use the traps yet. I keep thinking it needs traps and grenades that lower peoples skills. Smoke bumb, concussion grenade etc, that drop skills by like 10-20 or the likes. And still the 2 feats you put into getting the class you get back in epic levels so we cant forget about that.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

This (see highlighted text)




I suspect that like anything in any D&D world a character's beliefs influences and shapes the world around him/her to a degree, I would suggest that through self worth,tactics and damn good skills and drills the Knight Commander character is able to provide all the KC properties via 99% completely mundane although excepetional means leadership the remaining 1% being made up of the "weave" naturally augmenting and assisting as it does in anyones life.

I would further suggest that any effects the KC provides that might seem supernatural like SR are a small manifestation of the KC's will made reality via the weave, which is why they are relatively minor almost incidental effects and not fireballs at will in nature.

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

Really. How would you explain the maneuver or formation which, when performed, denies drow or svirfneblin their natural resistance to spells?

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Mark it zero!

Resistance to spells... It's not a spell!

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

You've done it guys, i'm gonna draw a diagram now.



I am not discussing the fact that KC's auras are supposed to be mundane things that a commander does to enhance performance of his troops on the battlefield. This makes sense. Mobility, defensive/offensive formations, discipline and morale of the troops.

I am merely saying, that i cannot possibly imagine a tactic, formation, maneuver or any other mundane action that would apply a penalty of reduced spell resistance upon foes. -This- is my feedback. This does not make sense.


As a side note, ironically KC class, due to his auras, synergizes best with Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer and Wizard classes, which introduces a slight balance shift. Their elemental spells hit harder, their summons get boons, and they have one of Mordekainen's Disjunction effects always active.

Arguably the most benefiting class is the Cleric, who otherwise has no means to lower SR; his healing and protective skills improve a lot.


Now on a brighter note...

Despite the minor hiccups, i have to say that KC is a clear sign that the team is capable of creating things made of pure genius. The reference to Paladin class from Diablo 2 doesn't mean that it's a stolen idea; it's not a port, it's an inspiration, and i personally love it. You've made a unique class that plays and feels right, and i can only hope that we will see more of that spark.

Can't say a thing about MS as i haven't played it yet, in my opinion less appealing than the KC, though still unique and interesting.

Keep it up!

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Mark it zero!

You're contradicting yourself here. If those five levels are the least handsome for Rangers to take, and most of them are 25/4/1 when this is a class designed for Rangers most of all, how is giving their companion a boost going to break balance? If most favour 25/4/1 over 23/5/2, then Master Scout needs something else to appeal to Rangers. The Fighter classes are pretty obviously superior to take right now. The Scout isn't gaining Fighter-like BAB for reasons I've already stated, anyway.




For Ordnance Support to make sense, you have to look at the concept itself - as the name suggests, the tactic focuses on attacks from afar through heavy support assault/bombing. To fit the theme, it provides an obvious boost toward mages so that their damaging spells have more of a kick.

Firstly, what is Spell Resistance? While there's never been an outright clear description on what it looks/feels/sounds like, the most obvious assumption is that it's a shield, of sorts. Certain races are born with Resistance, and the more powerful they are, the harder this shield becomes.

But then you have to look at the Spell Penetration feats. What do they do, exactly? Ultimately, they're a representation that the mage has trained to become more adept at breaking through the enemy's armor, be it through casting spells that are more focused to penetrate armor, or having a greater understanding of where the 'chinks' in an enemy's Spell Resistance may lie.

Though it's on a magical level rather than material, Spell Resistance is still a piece of armor. And this is how Orndance Support works - the Knight Commander knows strategy, he knows the strengths of his troop, and he knows the weaknesses of his enemy. While his powers may not be magical, he's developed the understanding of where the chinks lie in his foes' magical resistances, and in this formation, he's directing his troops on where these weaknesses lie so that they may take advantage of this. Something that might not be totally obvious which Pigeon already pointed out here - Spell Resistance isn't a spell. It's not even inherently magical - in D&D rules there's no prerequisites to take Spell Penetration. Not even the ability to cast spells.

Come to think of it, it might be interesting if Spell Penetration feats the Knight Commander may possess count toward the penalty Ordnance Support inflicts.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Thanks for the clarification Sune. I can't say i'm strong in the lore, and while it is a sound explanation i still have a feeling that this aura is the odd one in the bunch.



That's a dangerous thought. As if the Ordinance Support aura didn't turn the balance against SR things enough.

You do realize that having a KC in a party that engages max level drow in pvp disables their thin chance (10%) to resist spells of a level 30 caster with Epic Spell Penetration [ESP], that they normally always have? In fact, a character with as little as 22 caster levels and ESP can chuck spells at them freely right now, if they're affected by the aura.

It's a permanent AoE for gods sake. Casting Mord, Breach or Nature's Balance at least takes an action.

Now, IF you'd make KC take the Spell Penetration feats as a bonus to Ordinance Support, it would mean that all it takes to deny max level drow their racial SR is a character with 16 caster levels and ESP, plus 5 KC [either as part of the same character build, or a separate character with ESP].

I'm fairly sure that you would even enable a chance for a max level drow to fail his SR check vs scrolls. In fact we're probably already there. Scrolls have a certain level of spell penetration on their own [caster level], whether constant or varying, but let's take the pessimistic guess that it's 10.




I'm probably rambling, but there you go. I'll stop now

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Mark it zero!

As I said its the KC with his tactics and knowledge of the enemy and knowledge of his allies that is the IC for how he does what he does, we need look no further and in fact the specifics of how each KC manifests ICly his abilities is I feel largely a matter of choice of the player.

Is the KC a hard bitten warrior with years of campaigning experiences to draw on to know where to strike a foe to by pass its defences?

Is the KC and raw knight with little combat experience but with magnificent charisma and through it the ability to inspire allies to greater feats of arms and thus be able to tackle foes with greater success?

my comment about 99% mundane and 1% weave was just a for example of how a KC might influence the world, and idea borrowed from the Lord of the Rings lore in that its not just magic hammered into items, weapons, armour that effect the world but the ideas we pour our efforts and faith into, the way we carry ourselves and the way in which we deal with situations.

That is not to say that the KC is in anyway an arcanist of any degree, more to say that the weave surrounds us, it penetrates us and binds us together *enter small green alien* and it both shapes and is shaped by our actions and motivations. So this would/could be true of any class not just the KC.

As I mentioned earlier I would like to see the skills required to unlock KC to be revised to make them a little more inclusive of fighters class characters, as they have the worst skill selection and often the least skills to cross class with you take a big and to my mind needless skill hit, and I am sure that a character who is not a divine champion or cleric is just as capable ICly of being a leader of men.

On a seperate but related topic I plan to offer a post to be set on fire regarding skills in general at some point once work and RL allows

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

Wait... this is actually something i could relate to [and the LotR bit], but as i said i'm not strong in the lore, i don't know a thing about the nature of the Weave. Someone would have to slap me in the face with a quote that might confirm this.

PS. Everything is simple if explained by Elrond or Yoda. ...or Spock, he has pointy ears too

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Mark it zero!

I suppose I should weigh in a bit on the Knight Commander as I am intending to have 5 K(F)C levels with Victor, while hes not a knight, nor really a commander of military, he gives support and aid to those near him, his presence can have a calming effect. Or in other situations when using the aura with regen, how he can feel the pain and suffering of others, and through Ilmaters blessings, help cure their ailments simply by being near them.

Atleast, thats one possible idea *shrug* sounds as good as any for a pacifist cleric eh?

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Earylith Ju'ein- ”Never let your guard down around dhaerow, their natural impulse is to kill you”

L'chuno d'Vilrath- ”Usstan orn xun jal dos quarth ilharess”

Entreatment doesn't work so well, most creatures ignore it and keep fighting or chasing. Making it like shield ally and have it be auto used instead of waiting forever really makes it worthwhile

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

I was thinking, instead of the Knight Commander wielding the banner, perhaps a squire. I do not know if this is possible, but the squire would be akin to a wizards familiar or ranger animal companion, though I do not seeing the squire as being as tough as the two examples I've suggested. If the squire dies then the Knight Commander cannot use the auras again until after he rests. Just an idea and like I said, I don't even know if this can be implemented.

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"Ain't it like most people, I'm no different, love to talk on things we don't know about." The Avett Brothers

I would be so against that... On so so many levels.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Hmm... interesting idea Yoss, though that would force a lot of people into support which would be fine for a character like mine, however, yeah... not plausible for practically every other character out there, unless you supercharged how strong the auras are so that people could consider making support only non-dmg type chars *shrug* though even in that case, I would have to make a special request for changing said banner into my characters walking stick or something else, since it wouldn't make sense for him to waltz around with a banner

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Earylith Ju'ein- ”Never let your guard down around dhaerow, their natural impulse is to kill you”

L'chuno d'Vilrath- ”Usstan orn xun jal dos quarth ilharess”

Well maybe the KC could give extra bonuses for the sacrifice of holding a banner rather than gimping the class unnecessarily.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

Pass on the banner I think all it does would be to define the rp for what can be a very wide open class in terms of style and flair.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Didn't think about it limiting some peoples visions of what KC are, I was just basically brainstorming off Yoss' idea about Cavaliers and banners. Good point though Pigeon.

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"Ain't it like most people, I'm no different, love to talk on things we don't know about." The Avett Brothers

I am loving the KC class at the moment, currently using it in two very different builds with very different RP behind them.

I would dearly love the KC to be less paladin centric and more open to fighters as all soldiers need a leader! I am not sure if this could be better accomplished by changing the way fighters get skill points or if the KC pre reqs could ease off on the paladin skills maybe?

If not I will just have to continue burning a horrible number of cross class skill points to unlock this exciting and useful class!

Nat.

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Aggie Agetha War Knight (much to the chagrin of certain players and character )

BAB: +5
Feats: Skill Focus: Discipline, Toughness
Skills: Persuade 4 ranks, Taunt 4 ranks, Discipline 8 ranks and Lore 4 ranks

what paladin ability?...aside from taunt this is all things a commander should have

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

They KC skills are all charisma-based, which has perfect synergy with a paladin's skillset.

Edit to add: Yes, I'm aware that someone with even 8 charisma can get the full bonus of all of the KC goodies. That isn't my point, though. A paladin's going to have charisma anyway.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

commanders are supposed to be charismatic

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

And wise, and intelligent, and strong. Depends what culture you are looking from.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

the whole point of this class is to inspire things in others, you cant inspire without charisma..that's pretty much the end of that.

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

I thought the origin of at least a portion of the Class's abilities was from superior tactics, something that would be coming from Intelligence, neh?

I know why it was lumped into Charisma, I am just saying.

You can't just put aside the fact that to unlock KC you need to have Persuade 4 ranks and Taunt 4 ranks just to somehow score a point without making one?

These two skills clearly mark it as aimed at the Paladin class, which is fine as far as it goes.

I just feel that the KC is all about leadership and the mundane (in the non-magical sense) effects of that leadership and so it could have had a slightly different skill requirement to make it more accessable to classes that would have clear militarty leadership.

In otherwords given that the KC effects are completely mundane why couldn't any other class easily take this prc without lots of cross class skilling? It was a casual though tossed out there, wasn't planning to stage a revolution on it

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Aggie Agetha War Knight (much to the chagrin of certain players and character )

My KC was mainly fighter with a couple of Bard levels thrown in for flavor and no Paladin levels. Sure he had a few crossclass ranks but it wasn't much of a stretch and he wasn't even human. Although I'm sure Paladin would work, it wasn't at all necessary or in my case desired, and reaching the Charisma max to get all the benefits was a cinch.

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

I am not saying its hard to do, of course not I am just saying its odd that the KC given its lore is hard to obtain as fighter without cross classing lots of skill points (more so given the lack of skill points fighters get anyhow) without multiclassing which then limits the build alot.

In anycase its not a problem just a thing I think could have been done a little different and I freely admit that I am fighter class bias, I think its the purest class in D&D and highly underpowered compared to a range of classes that have come after it each one more esoteric than the last. Fighters could use some love and there has been discussion about this else where I know I wonder what might have been if KC had been more fighter friendly from the outset

I still love the KC class and am using it alot in various incarnations and builds.

Nat.

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Aggie Agetha War Knight (much to the chagrin of certain players and character )

I just maxed out my Knight commander(Warboss) and i love the KC class and all of its auras.
The crossclassing skills was not a big issue to me but i think for some 2 Skillpoint/level class it can really hurt.
What can be improved?
The barricade of sword aura definately needs some more love. In low level areas its great but once you hit the high levels its basically useless. Some more damage could be added but too much would make it too powerfull in PvP. I think having it add some damage reduction(1 per KC level) would be fitting.
Bulkward of Viligance could use a little more love, too since the low range of the aura limits its usefullness. (maybe some slight increase of the slow and tumble effect)

Also: Looks like the offensive auras still get dispelled by beholder rays.

The master Scout:
I havent played one myself but i toyed aroud with some build concepts. I think the class would be more attractive if the basic features of a scout would be improoved: Hide, Listen, Move silently spot. Adding thoose epic skill focusses to the bonus feat lists would be a good start.

Thats my two cents so far. WIll think about more.
Jack

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"Every time you play with fire, the fire plays with you.
and when you take the sword, the sword takes you, too."
Malle Malone

Yep, ironically often it has the reverse effect as intended. In many cases when you activate the skill, the KI chooses to stop attacking you and attack someone else instead.

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"Every time you play with fire, the fire plays with you.
and when you take the sword, the sword takes you, too."
Malle Malone

It gains Trackless Step for free.

Expect some changes to Knight Commander and Master Scout soon.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

Is it actually possible to do something with the magical instruments that the Harper scout was able to craft? Or would it be possible to make it accessible IG? Not necessarily through the PRC.

Phasing out the old Harper Scout items by not letting them be crafted any more was intentional.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."