AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Underdark PlayerBase----> We need you.

I still don't know all the drow rank names and only very few words, despite having pottered around on the menaces for a few years now >.>

Mr. Hackums wrote:

When I first came into the Drow realm, I was really, really timid because of that. It might be a cheap excuse, but I was worried that I wouldn't know what ranks or words they were using, or show proper respect and get shat on because I didn't understand the culture, or what someone was saying.

That makes me sadface. We're nothing like that OOC and I think all the players are glad to help new drow-players out!

Mainly I focus on:
Vendui - generic greeting
Aluve - generic farewell
usstan - I/myself
dos - you
qu'ellar - drow house
bwael - good (ie 'That is good to hear.' = 'That is bwael to hear.' or 'Good.' = 'Bwael.')
yath - generic priestess
jalil - female
jaluk - male
rivvil - human
kivvil - surfacer

Ilharess - Matron of a house
Ustl'Ilharess - Matron of the First House
Yath'tallar - High Priestess of Lolth
Ul'ath'tallar - Queen Bit- er, Highest priestess in the temple, essentially

Personally, I only get the most use out of Vendui, Aluve, dos and bwael in non-drow language conversation. I will normally use the commonly known drow words in one-word sentences as well. Ilharess and other titles are used, mostly because it's harder to say the common translations :lol:

jalil/jaluk/rivvil/kivvil are not used often, though Zrae has been known to use 'kivvil' as a swear word haha. 'Usstan' is typically only used when her common is slipping due to stress of some sort (one of my fave things about being on the surface is using dos and such and using her tendancy towards pronouncing Common w's as v's).

Also, the nice thing about the UD forum is that there is a bunch of stickied topics that help. The one for the Temple Rankings shows the descriptions of such things. The same for the Sorcere, Melee Magthere, and house rankings topics.

We try to be welcoming, even if our characters may not be ^_^
Hell, Zrae lost an ear the other day for a misunderstanding and, while that sucks, it bothers her a hell of a lot more than it bothers me (which is not at all!).

Zephyr_of_Discord wrote:

This is not so hard to translate... it could be all in drow, but it's not... I don't see the fuss with it as it's easy enough to follow "I think you are a fool and your house is too." It could look like this "Usstan talinth dos ph' natha wael lu' dosst que'llar zhah ulu." That is annoying there's no common references for those not immersed so deeply into the nuances of the race. I don't mind talking to people that know very little drow, and if I know, I'll temper how much I use, it's when words are horribly misused that I get annoyed. But, the use of the drow language is a common 'excuse' not to play one. When it's such a very small part of being drow... the language is -flavor- to the race, it's not absolutely necessary to learn the whole vocabulary, just the basics works well for most... and how to use the words properly.

It's not an issue of being hard to translate or not. When we already assume that our characters are speaking in drow, adding a title or a word or two is flavor. Making a full (or almost) sentence in drow is overkill. Some people, myself included, feel that it breaks immersion. Though I suppose it could be fun to use next to surfacers who don't know any drow ICly, that'd make them confused.

Other races also have their own language, yet it seems like it's the drow who feel the need to add too much flavor. However, it seems like the majority agrees that adding a couple words is enough. After a while everyone learns those, but there's really no need to take it up an extra notch and use too much of it. (Makes me have to learn and memorize a fourth language just to play my character, and that's what makes me sad). Plus it might scare newbies who aren't familiar with the language and get the wrong idea that it's a "must" to know it.

@Hackums
It's okay to ask people what the words mean! No one expects people to know them by heart or even memorize all of the stuff we say. This is not some MMO where people will go "LOLOL NOOB, HOW U NOT KNOW IT?!". We're nice people... deep inside.

I walked into the Amia UD not knowing a thing about drow language or culture, other than they worshipped Lolth and females reigned supreme. My -very first- encounter was with the First Matron (Ust'ilharess) May'ryna Tinnerai, and me having NO idea what her title meant.

I have never had a single experience where anyone made me feel bad either ICly or OOCly because I didnt' understand something. And everyone was more than willing to help through a tell.

That said, Fi and ZoD are extremely right. Even for someone like me that thrives on conflict in-game, playing a drow, especially a high ranking one, is VERY stressful.

I'm not an expert by far, but I'm always willing to help if needed!

I have tried FOUR times creating an underdarker. It only worked when i choose to play a Drow, in ALL the other cases my PC was either forcefully thrown down into submission and/or treated as a slave/fodder and being told in OOC tells that it was the natural order of the underdark (But in different wording)

These characters have been played under an alias and not my account Very_Svensk, for reference, save one.
Mind that this was almost a year ago.

Convince me this has changed and I'll be willing to give it an attempt.

Unfortunately with drow and other races, that's literally how it goes :/
It's something that you have to accept when RPing with drow, they believe they are the height of creation and that Lolth, and by extension themselves for following her decrees, can do no wrong. Drow males have to go through the same thing, though it's much worse or other races. At least the males aren't immediately cannon fodder >_> lol

The problem is that if a drow treats another UD race different in the sense of being OOC fair they are not only being flippant with their character and such for OOC reasons but also if a high-ranking drow does witness it, they can be in for a very, very Bad Time. It goes back to the point someone mentioned (here or elsewhere, can't remember) that they are tired of people getting upset because they are playing a lore-correct character (because drow are evil, evil people, after all :/).

However, I would imagine that it's still possible to verbally kick the crap out of another UD race without being too harsh and being semi-welcoming as well. A drow can give the other PC a job, eventually more, to do as a sort of dominance thing. That's perfectly lore-reasonable (as long as they don't pay them!) and promotes more RP and a more welcoming atmosphere. Eventually, the drow might consider the other PC a slave or something along those lines and it can actually be some sort of quasi-relationship. I think that would be a good way to go about working with other UD races.

I can't speak for those active in the UD at the moment. But from what I have read of the lore that is exactly how drow treat all other races.

All of them are -lessers- in a drow's eyes. Tools to be used perhaps, but treated with disdain whether openly or not.

That first meeting I mentioned didn't happen while I was playing Maral, it was with a half-drow, and you betcha... she was not welcomed. :wink:

So while I hate to see the loss of a PC, I can't see why the core ideal should be changed. We as players should understand, drow are extremely prejudiced, and our PC of another race is going to get screwed in the process. [Said by someone who's alt UD PC is a svirfneblin]

EDIT: Two thumbs up for Naivatkal's post

Good arguments, but not to get a player creating a new UD PC.

Well it's not as if we said the PC has to be in constant fear of their lives. In fact, I gave a suggestion as to how to make the experience more enjoyable. IN the end, it has to come down to the player being rational and understanding the culture they are going to interact with. That's part in parcel as to why I said drow are so alien and hard, yet fun, to roleplay.

After all, there's several non-drow UD players around that have been successful.

For an UD society to thrive, individuals really need some kind of 'backup'. A lone goblin, kobold, etc, is going to get murdered or enslaved. It's what they do, it's how they roll. The only deterrent they'll think of is one of force, AKA I wouldn't expect a lone drow to act all superior in the face of a whole bunch of armed kobolds, because if they did they'd probably get murdered and eaten. Cooperation is one that is forced and only a veneer. The relations of the UD crowd should be "I hate you, you hate me, lets get up and kill Barney." Well, as it stands, you get the first two parts without the last. It's expected they'll only grudgingly get along after all.

In order for a UD crowd to get along in any way, there really has to be some kind of pervading, overwhelming threat to them. If there's someone ruling L'Obsul with an iron fist and will beat down anyone who gets out of line? That works. As it is I think you can have wild messy PvPs in the middle of L'Obsul and there's nothing to stop it.

There could also be a less direct form of motivation, like an extremely powerful illithid colony that threatens to wipe everyone else out if the UD crowd doesn't shape up and stop killing each other. There's definitely going to be power struggles, sure. Every group hates the others and wants to wipe the others out and claim superiority, that's just how they roll. Alliances of hate are fragile at best, but... that's how UD RP works.

If you want to make it work, there has to be some kind of balancing factor keeping things in line. I'm not sure what that can be, mind you, but there definitely has to be something.

The1Kobra wrote:

For an UD society to thrive, individuals really need some kind of 'backup'. A lone goblin, kobold, etc, is going to get murdered or enslaved. It's what they do, it's how they roll. The only deterrent they'll think of is one of force, AKA I wouldn't expect a lone drow to act all superior in the face of a whole bunch of armed kobolds, because if they did they'd probably get murdered and eaten. Cooperation is one that is forced and only a veneer. The relations of the UD crowd should be "I hate you, you hate me, lets get up and kill Barney." Well, as it stands, you get the first two parts without the last. It's expected they'll only grudgingly get along after all.

This is what I was getting at. You said it much better than I for some reason XD

It's the UD players responsibility to promote the RP growth down there as well. For example:
Zrae'a'stra'fryn, in respect to non-drow races when in the UD, is certainly not kind but if they are from the surface she is mostly just cold. However with a goblin, for example, she is not flat out cruel but believes they should know their place. Her one encounter with a goblin was good, actually, in that he was trying to please her even though she hadn't even spoken to him yet lol The other interaction I can think of was a duergar, and he was acting in lore with how one would with a drow. She was purchasing an altar he had made and so she was high meticulous with it and at least gave praise where it was due for the excellent work done.

It's all about give-and-take and remembering that a drow can give without compromising their ideals. After all, pretending to be kind is perfect for getting others to do things for you :twisted:

Naivatkal wrote:

Hell, Zrae lost an ear the other day for a misunderstanding and, while that sucks, it bothers her a hell of a lot more than it bothers me (which is not at all!).

Yeah, sorry about that *huggles*

Very_Svensk -- Sorry you didn't have an opportunity to have more fun in the UD. The trick is to realize that your character is going to at some point be treated like crap. And be ok with that. Nizzre'tyne entered Edonil unknown and not ranked in the temple. She damn well bowed to every female, found out who was who and spent a lot of time saying "Yes honored one." to whatever task was given her. Even "Polish my boots!" (she just remembered which house they belonged to and stuck it to them later

). For some folks being that submissive is just not doable.

Nizzre'tyne has other races working for her in different capacities, orog, kobold, human, teifling, duergar etc. What did they do to get in her good graces? They are polite. They payed attention to the cultural acceptable behavior. (Ok that and she has a use for them.) As long as they don't make her look weak in front of other drow, no worries.

Oh, I should have noted, when I first stepped into the UD, it was a long, long time ago. I was a much younger player, and much more timid.

I didn't give up, and I actually ended up having a lot of fun in the Underdark when it was busy. The players -are- generally nice people, and most are fairly helpful even on OOC terms.

I was just trying to recall my initial experience in context of drowspeak and UD cultures. I imagine other player's first impressions might be generally the same.

I actually kind of empathize with Svensk a little too. I remember when I first got into the UD, I didn't acknowledge someone in a way that was respectful/required, so I was beaten in the streets! It was just a really big shock. I think I ended up leaving the UD later, but I couldn't remember why. When I came back, the same thing happened again, only I was ready for it (As ready as anyone can be to make a mistake!), and I turned it into a neat event, actually.

The drow world is really, really neat. Don't mistake my stories for my disliking of the UD. It's just surprising, and people slip their toes in sometimes without knowing what to expect, or even having friends down there to help them learn.. and sometimes the harshness can be overwhelming! The Drow world is naturally harsh, but extremely rewarding when you get more comfortable in it.

The Underdark needs to enforce its own rendition of Cordor to force player interaction, regardless of how "lore appropriate" segregation between the races is. The big problem thats always brought up is "I don't want to be alone," and the current setting encourages this to happen with such a minor playerbase group spread so thinly between areas where they "are the king and everyone plays by their rules."

You wouldn't be alone if you were forced to share your space with others under a neutrally enforced setting.

Galenson wrote:

The Underdark needs to enforce its own rendition of Cordor to force player interaction, regardless of how "lore appropriate" segregation between the races is. The big problem thats always brought up is "I don't want to be alone," and the current setting encourages this to happen with such a minor playerbase group spread so thinly between areas where they "are the king and everyone plays by their rules."

You wouldn't be alone if you were forced to share your space with others under a neutrally enforced setting.

This is why the Brog orcs should invade edonil. *sagenod*.

Sorry but here we go again - edonil is the "biggest" reason the underdark and underdarkers gets so little interaction.

L'Obsul is very much like Cordor, it's a trade hub jointly managed by Svirfneblin, Deurgar, Orogs, Goblins, and of course drow. In L'Obsul you can even find the occasional kivvil.

Edonil is kind of like Kohlingen or even Tarkuul, except take those up a notch from being focused on Paladins or undeath to being racially focused. We've done a few trade contracts with kivvil that brought them to Edonil, but they had to be escorted. Now this being escorted served two purposes, protected them from making a mistake if/when they encountered a ranked drow, female or male, it also kept them from snooping around in places they didn't belong.

My second drow character, I was trying to start a new house and was in the Temple (I was not aware at the time I needed to have permission even as a priestess) when Nizzre'tyne came through, not yet knowing the lay of the land, my cleric was pretty defiant, and I'll admit she brought the next actions on herself, for her defiance she was rewarded with a backhand, drug from the temple and imploded. Needless to say, it was a rather rude awakening, not saying Fie was rude, it was just the reality and weight of playing a drow. I left the UD pretty angry at first, but Fie would not leave me be!!! She insisted I try again, so I went back, same character... A lot more humbled.

On the flip side, my current drow is Ilharess of Que'llar d'Vilrath, just a few days ago there was a house meeting, one the the house members brought her slave, a svirfneblin, he proceeded to serve drinks and snacks, only he started with his mistress, not the Ilharess, when he got to Tagnik'zur, she backhanded him, saying something along the lines of learning who he should serve first, then promptly ignored him the rest of the meeting. Mostly she leaves his discipline to his mistress unless, like then, he severely is out of line.

Also, just recently got in a debate with someone about Underdark drow and how they could not be lore accurate without lots of PvP, I told that person they were wrong, this is an RP server, not PvP, we RP sacrifices of PCs, often a glare or a simple emoted backhand is enough, in all my years of playing drow, I have only -had- to PvP kill one person and I don't remember why.

Back to the language, some people will always find it intimidating when its used much, that's the reason most of us will mix in plenty of English/Common words to give it a context. I think earlier in this thread someone even found that annoying, to that, well nothing I can say will change your opinion, but it's just like walking into a Mexican or Chinese restaurant, though much easier to follow, if you spend much time there you begin to understand a bit of what's being said in broken English. The mixture is very intentional, and though some find it annoying, the use of drow mixed with common is an effort to help further understanding of the language.

...and not one drow player currently active will intentionally make you feel "stupid" for asking for a clarification in a tell for either the language or social contacts. As one of my teachers growing up said so many times, the only dumb question is the one you don't ask. We also have a number of links posted in a sticky for drow information, doesn't hurt to read through that and bookmark the translator. Heck I've been playing drow for a very long time, and often I am sent to the translator for a word or two some one has said, but I never use the translator for anything I say, unless like stated before, someone is just being a annoying, then I'll use it to make sure what I was going to say is in the correct tense.

No one is actively trying to make me look stupid when they use Drow language. Its simply a result of me not knowing what they're saying, and having to ask them, that I feel stupid. It breaks the flow of roleplay. Think about if we were speaking English, and I had to stop you and ask you in tells, "Okay, what did you say?" And you having to explain it again. It makes the speed of the conversation (And more importantly the speed of my own character's responses) much slower than if it was simply spoken in an understood, comprehensible language.

And I know that it slows everything down some. So that's why I feel bad about asking to slow it down so that I can understand what's going on.

It's like forcing a guy to ask for directions. Its embarrassing, even though its helpful.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Galenson wrote:

The Underdark needs to enforce its own rendition of Cordor to force player interaction, regardless of how "lore appropriate" segregation between the races is. The big problem thats always brought up is "I don't want to be alone," and the current setting encourages this to happen with such a minor playerbase group spread so thinly between areas where they "are the king and everyone plays by their rules."

You wouldn't be alone if you were forced to share your space with others under a neutrally enforced setting.

This is why the Brog orcs should invade edonil. *sagenod*.

Sorry but here we go again - edonil is the "biggest" reason the underdark and underdarkers gets so little interaction.

Actually, any UD race can go to Edonil. Current laws stipulate they can only go in the common and merchant areas, which actually works fine since they have no reason to go elsewhere without escort, and the merchant area is attached to the common area on the same map.
I might be wrong on the law, though, if it changed when I wasn't looking.

Also, what's been said about L'Obsul, pretty much. I do think the two cities should work more closely, however.

I... this is getting entirely too frustrating, expecting someone to understand fairly basic drow phrases and words and culture, is no different than expecting a cleric to learn about their god or a paladin... lucky for you you don't get fallen for not understanding the language or the culture... so think about it, the onus is on you... you can asked people that have some experience with drow language and culture to help you understand, or, as has been mentioned, continue to feel stupid for asking... or just avoid the whole situation all together. the language and culture are all part of the immersion into the Underdark. Not understanding the language is the most common excuse for not trying, and it doesn't hold water, cause there's plenty of people willing to teach, initially it will slow things down until you learn some of it... but it's not really that much different than learning the culture, things go slow with player new to the setting as they ask questions as to why this or that happened, who's the highest ranked female here (in the immediate group),.....

That said, a new player coming into the atmosphere -will- slow things down, even if it's unintentional, it happens.... not saying we don't welcome new players to the atmosphere, we do... OOCly with open arms, and we're all eager to teach, we like seeing new faces. It's just because things we do break -your- immersion you want us to stop when those very things contribute greatly to -our- immersion.

Well said.

On the subject of language, everyone has their own tolerance of what is immersive and what is annoying. No one player of group can fit the entire spectrum of what is acceptable for all occasions. By and large, most drow players are very reactive to the acceptable usage of drow nomenclature and will readily alter that usage depending on the others participating in the RP. The general rule is that when new players or players not familiar are involved, most will decrease the usage of various drow words for the ease of RP and are very willing to have the opportunity to expand another's lore of the drow language. In my case, when dealing with known drow players I'll use the basic drow words and syntax for me, you, yes, and no, and when whomever I'm RP'ing with isn't using the same words, I'll also refrain as well.

That being said, I also find it very insulting to be reviled for using the lore I've learned by research and more due to actual RP in drow society, especially when the accuser cannot even be bothered to ask me to help or do something different. So excuse me if I have no sympathy because a particular player is so passive aggressive that they would prefer to bitch about something that can be easily resolved through a tiny bit of communication.

The reality is that new players and players of other UD races cannot seem to understand that no one, not even a drow does something without reason. That, that particular reason may be capricious and cruel is only a failure of not knowing even the most basic lore of drow society.

I see it as akin to a goblin walking into a duregar stronghold and shouting "Your society does not apply to me!!!", and then kicking the local leader in the knee. Knowing at a basic level that a particular race see's themselves at the top of the food chain, whether the reality supports it or not and then either claiming superiority or insulting them is only destined to start a fight. As another example of how ridiculous it is, go out to a bar or club and flick the bouncer in the nose to see what happens, I dare you.

A little research would tell you that dealing with drow is a hazardous endeavor, yet so many players jump into that ring unarmed without even the most basic of lore and no way to prevail. Drow are a very political oriented society, it is an illusion of orderliness where the only real rule is to not be seen to be breaking those illusionary rules without the political alliances to back it up. Simply put, other races need the backing of one or more already powerful drow to interact in that society, but it's always going to be a precarious position and most players are simply not up to the task of doing so.

Saving face is the watchword for drow interaction, and it applies to drow everywhere, but is situational and only enforceable where drow have the power to do so. Ever wonder why teams of drow don't whip people in the streets of L'obsul? That's right, they don't have the power to enforce their views in another drows territory and they know it, and more would be whipped themselves should they do so. So, to my mind, much of the complaint is only due to those stepping foot in a drows own territory and and not paying attention to the most basic of rumors that every UD citizen should have at least heard of, or finding a group of drow out and about and mouthing off to them because it's fun to make them mad and whining because their is a consequence.

You are invited to join the Lolthite drow fun!

So, the list of things to consider for those wishing to join the Lolthite drow fun as a drow:

1) Males are easier to start with to get an idea of the culture. Bow to everything, never look above the neck for the females.
2) Be polite. Watch, listen and use Tells to ask lots of questions.
3) Remember that Lolthite drow RP is very slow. Characters must find out where they are in the ranking order. You have to consider how you say things a bit more so you do not offend.
4) Get used to the drow words. I still have occasion to ask other players what they just said, cause Nizzre knows but I don't.

5) Remember Lolthite Drow aren't cruel just to be cruel (mostly). Rather it's all about not losing face. (see #2).
6) Be ok with getting in trouble, it will happen.
7) DO NOT ATTEMPT TO GET YOUR WAY VIA PVP! Lolthite drow are not barbarians. They are sneaky, crafty, SOB's that will plan for weeks/months to make your character look bad should your character have been impolite. Need help in this area? Find a player you like and send them a PM. I have helped many players including players of heretics to Lolthite Society with new and inventive ways to stick it to an enemy. And new and inventive ways to get their character out of trouble.

Be prepared to laugh. The things we do and talk about aren't all serious and doom filled.

List of things to consider if you want your character to have interaction with a Lolthite Drow:

1. Be polite. If you make a Drow look bad in front of anyone, especially another Drow, it'll get ugly.
2. Remember that just because the Drow believe they are better than everything else doesn't mean you have to believe it too. (see #1)

I'm really hopeful that you guys aren't taking my words as "reviling" or insulting. Or even complaining.

All I've been trying to do is illustrate some hitches that early players might bump into, that I ran into about 3 years ago, when I was a young little pup who didn't know what I was doing. I LOVE that Fierene gave that outline. It's what I was digging for, and it will be -extremely- helpful for new drow players.

I'm a big advocate of the Underdark and the Drow culture.

Oh Fi - U Rock!
+1000

Mr. Hackums wrote:

I'm really hopeful that you guys aren't taking my words as "reviling" or insulting. Or even complaining.

No, not at all.

What I'm saying is to give the other drow players a chance and communicate any and all grievances, troubles, and misunderstandings with them at the time so that no one need walk away with any hard feelings when RP'ing with drow. It's just that from the perspective of a drow player, the first thing I hear of me or another player ruining another players experience is through complaints on the forum. It is never my intention to do so and I cannot alter anything unless it is communicated to me.

The manner in which the complaints are made about how drow behave and the words they choose to use in RP makes the players involved seem to be uncaring jackasses who don't care about anyone else's RP. Which to my knowledge is not the case with most drow players.

The fact of the matter is that when a player is being punished, if they don't know what to do and send a tell, I don't know of very many players who won't at least give some advice on how to direct the RP so that everyone has a good time and not at any players expense. But, because it is rarely done, there are many who feel the only outlet is to make villains out of drow players instead, which is a huge injustice to those players.

It is yet another example of why drow should be a platinum coin race. There is just too much lore involved and since most players cannot be bothered to learn it, it makes fools of the players who happened to take the time and effort to do so. Personally, I'd like to see similar complaints made of Winya for using those silly elven words in everyday conversation, or people getting uptight because they were talked down to or denied entry into Winya for not being an elf, just saying.

Bravo21 wrote:

It is yet another example of why drow should be a platinum coin race.

Agreed, including and especially surface/Eilistraeen drow.

Bravo21 wrote:

Personally, I'd like to see similar complaints made of Winya for using those silly elven words in everyday conversation...

Not even remotely close to the same situation. In all my time playing Kaithan, the only elven words I see being used regularly are "alae" ("hello") and "Quessir" ("elf") and its variations (Teu-tel'Quessir, Ar-tel'Quessir, etc.), and "Quessir" is useful for the same reason as "yathrin": just as "yathrin" has a different shade of meaning than "priestess," so does "Quessir" mean something distinct from "elf". A time or two, I've seen a player try to work in some Sindarin (Tolkien's elven), but that's maybe a couple of times ever, nothing approaching the constant stream of vernacular required to successfully get along in the Underdark.

Bravo21 wrote:

... or people getting uptight because they were talked down to or denied entry into Winya for not being an elf, just saying.

Non-elves aren't denied entry into Winya, just the Temple of Corellon.

Are there ACTUALLY that many players with UD characters?

gorgometh wrote:

Are there ACTUALLY that many players with UD characters?

Not anymore...

Yeah, that poll result is odd, considering that the vast majority of the characters online at any one time are surfacers?

I guess that a lot of the yes votes are from people who once played a drow.

...For 15 minutes.

...In 2009.

Anyway. The reason I voted no isn't anything complicated. I'm not afraid of funny words or quickslotting the bow emote, its more that I'm simply not interested. Never been remotely inspired to delve into that world. I didnt watch Game of Thrones, have an awesomegasm, and then think "I'd like to play a character that lives in a big cave". I wanted to be Tyrion Lannister. I suppose if you've read some novel about them you might think different, but I haven't and I don't. Sorry.

I'd personally like to see the ACTIVE UD character numbers. This thread is muddled with a lot of good chatter, but if I understand the purpose of the poll, it's for the sake of activity and revitalizing interest in the ~deep dark~.

If you want to build something fun down there, you are going to need players that want to actually invest some time. Not just say they have an ALT that fits and the skews your expectations in the wrong way.

This thread made me reconsider. *salutes*

I would create a drow. Since as a male I only play males (never figured it out how a male can play woman and vice versa, DMs are excluded for obvious reasons) I think I am choosing an easier path.

PM me if you have a thing running and in which a male drow addition would fit. And, of course, if you are interested.

Guardian wrote:

(never figured it out how a male can play woman and vice versa, DMs are excluded for obvious reasons)

It's easier than you think! Or, at least, I think so.

Guardian wrote:

PM me if you have a thing running and in which a male drow addition would fit. And, of course, if you are interested.

Welcome aboard! Best idea, probably, would be to log in when you see a drow presence online (pretty much any weird name on B is a drow, you get used to the parts of names that are drow) and perhaps fire off a tell, too. Of course, someone coordinating to meet you in L'Obsul would be good, too!

gorgometh wrote:

I'd personally like to see the ACTIVE UD character numbers.

Take the poll and divide by 3. It's usually rather accurate

Don't wait, take the initiative.

There are two ways to accomplish this. One, jump right in, keeping in mind #2 on Fi's last post, ask questions.

Or, two, and even better, PM a house member or leader and brainstorm where best to fit your character concept. By looking at the current House rankings, the one at the top is usually the most active, and where you will likely find the most RP. There are many drow players who have limited time or odd schedules that are more likely to log in knowing when and where other players might be rather than trusting to luck and hoping to randomly run into another player at any given time.

In the end, don't start somethin', won't be nothin'. Showing a new drow player the ropes has always been good RP, and you learn a lot by having a shoe in the door to a house already, so to speak. It also lessens the severity of any mistakes you might make while learning as well. Plus, by allowing other players to have a hand in getting your character involved, it allows them to exercise a little creativity as well which is good for RP too.

Very_Svensk wrote:

gorgometh wrote:

I'd personally like to see the ACTIVE UD character numbers.

Take the poll and divide by 3. It's usually rather accurate

Yeah, we get it... You don't like fucking drow or their players. Next?

Bravo21 wrote:

Very_Svensk wrote:

gorgometh wrote:

I'd personally like to see the ACTIVE UD character numbers.

Take the poll and divide by 3. It's usually rather accurate

Yeah, we get it... You don't like fucking drow or their players. Next?

I don't see how you got that out of the comment he made. Doing what he said comes up with 12 players, which sounds close for a read on active players. I can think of eight, myself, I think.

13, I didn't respond to the poll.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

13, I didn't respond to the poll.

Thanks! That's what I wanted to know going forward.

-Cloak-and-Dagger- wrote:

Yeah, that poll result is odd, considering that the vast majority of the characters online at any one time are surfacers?

I guess that a lot of the yes votes are from people who once played a drow.

...For 15 minutes.

...In 2009.

To be fair, the poll doesn't say "Do you have an ACTIVE underdark character" :p

Bravo21 wrote:

Yeah, we get it... You don't like fucking drow or their players. Next?

...well this was entirely appropriate?

Very_Svensk wrote:

Bravo21 wrote:

Yeah, we get it... You don't like fucking drow or their players. Next?

...well this was entirely appropriate?

Svensk, its been addressed. Drop it.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Sorry but here we go again - edonil is the "biggest" reason the underdark and underdarkers gets so little interaction.

That wasn't the intention of my post either so don't assume such; I merely expressed that L'Obsul should be more centralised with less "racial areas." Three years down the track, the original intentions as requested by the playerbase to have their own domains has failed due to lack of use. its contributing to the problem, not solving it.

I believe that by decreasing L'Obsul's size and the positioning of a single portal node is vital in forcing that interaction between such a minor playerbase to get them off their feet in L'Obsul. In essence, enforcing a "cordor-like environment." Regardless of how inappropriate to the "lore" it is or your own personal opinions, if you're forced to spend time and space with others, you will never be alone. That is the point I am making; some bits of lore need to be overlooked for the benefit of the whole.

You get my meaning?

I don't know, I'm still not sold on dropping significant amounts of lore. However, I'm coming around on the need for major changes for the sake of attracting players.

Are there some more specific ideas that players can run with to achieve a more consolidated UD?

The problem so far has been the fact that even though L'obsul provides a central point for every UD race, there have never been enough, other than Lothite drow in Edonil, that have congregated in any numbers. So, is it that there are too many bind points, or just not enough players other than those in Edonil?

Perhaps a more focused poll of what a potential player might specifically want in order to be enticed to play in the UD? I think we're kind of throwing ideas in the dark for the most part, and that a major consideration should be what the Dev Team is prepared to do that will actually pay off. What might be done to attract more players without a major overhaul to the existing areas? Would a unified multiracial UD even work? And what would the lore for players that are to be introduced into that society look like?

I'm tired of all the all the backbiting over the the drow and the UD, and I'm ashamed for my own part in it mostly. It's not constructive and it only breeds more player conflict. I'm with Galenson in that changes need to made, but more focus on what to change and what effect it will have is needed too. So maybe we can depart from reveling in why we can't, or who ruined what, lets move on to why we can.

I don't think it would help much to force an IC societal change on people for OOC reasons. I imagine that, on balance, we'd alienate as many people as we'd attract. People who play in the Underdark now are there because they like the lore the way it is.

Speaking only for myself, I know that my attempt at playing an Underdarker was motivated out of interest in drow society as it's described in existing lore, with the matriarchy and xenophobia and the whole shebang. It wasn't the lore that made me drop that character, it was the underpopulation. Changing the lore would make me less likely to ever try it again, not more.

My implied suggestion does not impede how xenophobic or superior your toon can feel or act, it merely increases the chances of bumping into someone to role play with by better facilitating a neutral environment.

Lizzie you said it yourself: lack of population. If it meant the chance to role play with someone instead of being alone, would you not take it? Or is the "lore" too important to think of as guidelines instead of gospel?

Me, personally? I'd rather play something more closely approximating the canonical lore, yes. Even if it means I won't be doing my playing in the Underdark. I don't assert that I'm able to speak for anyone beyond myself in that, but I do at least suspect that I'm not alone. And if I'm not, then altering the IC lay of the land for OOC purposes could easily backfire.

Quote:

Me, personally? I'd rather play something more closely approximating the canonical lore, yes. Even if it means I won't be doing my playing in the Underdark.

I respect your conviction, but it capitulates the problem and solves nothing.

Color me crazy but I'm not seeing a problem.

Edonil needs to stay a Lolthite drow only area. Makes it more fun for the Lolthite drow players and frankly more fun to send a spy into. (I would say that the crystal needs to be set to UD only races though).

No one on to RP with? My drow goes into the caverns on A. Runs into cute adventurers and volia! RP. OR I send out little PM's OR I give my drow something to do. She's making rings right now.

I have had players I don't know see the name and send Tells, and we meet up.

Hey if you want something to do right now, get in touch with Irae'arra (P Three) and Kore (PhantomDream) and help out with the merchant area that's being created in Lobsul. It's going to be for all the UD races. This is on the forums btw. Also on the forums is a call for mages. Isendu't'tar put out a call for a bunch of stuff awhile ago and... *insert cricket chirps here*

So I'm not buying there's no RP. There's plenty it's just that you have to do more than wander around sometimes. It's that way in other places too. Been to the Salandran Temple lately? My character had to make an appointment. And the Salandran players were more than happy to meet up. So. I'm not seeing a problem. Crazy, eh?

I think what Galenson is trying to say is that the Underdark is too drow-centric and that L'obsul isn't really a nice alternative because it kind of lacks a central area to roleplay in, in the same way that Cordor has Cordor: East.

Silent2001 wrote:

I think what Galenson is trying to say is that the Underdark is too drow-centric and that L'obsul isn't really a nice alternative because it kind of lacks a central area to roleplay in, in the same way that Cordor has Cordor: East.

Then to that I say, go help Irae'arra and Kore with the cool ideas they have to make the merchant area more inviting. The crystal there is already set to allow anyone to bind to it. Kore's plans are AWESOME! Any race and assist and you don't have to worry about the Lolthite drow being too uppity since it's a neutral area.

And there no way the Underdark can be /too/ drow-centric.

Silent2001 wrote:

I think what Galenson is trying to say is that the Underdark is too drow-centric and that L'obsul isn't really a nice alternative because it kind of lacks a central area to roleplay in, in the same way that Cordor has Cordor: East.

Possibly true. However the drow centric population is currently in an upswing even with quite a few players making an exodus to the surface. The populations of every other UD race remains almost non-existent, how does nixing what RP there is in the UD help anyone else?

I suppose that removing the ability to port anywhere from in the UD could help in keeping players in the area like Cordor. But even in Cordor, you start in an area that is not the center of activity, just like L'obsul. And due to the Portal restriction, I change my portal home point as soon as possible and avoid Cordor for much of the time, I can't imagine that I'm the only one who does so. So, how exactly is that going to induce players into the UD?

Making a UD Cordor probably isn't the answer. The largest obstacle I see is the prevailing attitude that since there is no one playing there, I won't either, that'll show all of you! Well all it shows is that no one is playing there either. At least the drow have something that they can drop into and RP right away, but the immediate opportunities for other races lack any sort of visible structure, so what is a player of a non-drow race to do other than hunting and gathering?

In accordance with the OP, the solution that can be made immediately and doesn't require anyone else's aid is to log in and play. There are enough people who want to do 'something' that they will flock to where the action is. More than one or two players have to run with it though.

Silent2001 wrote:

I think what Galenson is trying to say is that the Underdark is too drow-centric and that L'obsul isn't really a nice alternative because it kind of lacks a central area to roleplay in, in the same way that Cordor has Cordor: East.

This in a nutshell, but without the Drow-centric part. I don't really care about the Drow-centricity anymore. I've accepted it due to their popularity.

The simplicity of the matter that I see is this: not enough people, too much space. I never said anything about lack of RP nor did I say anything about altering fluff: there's just too much space for so little people. The two simplest solutions are as follows: get more people or reduce the space.

Amia's average playerbase is roughly 30 people during American Timezones now. New people are hard to come by so certain groups are going to take cuts: the first to go are the monstrous races playerbase (Already happened). The next is the Underdarkers (Its mostly happened). After that, the more specialised groups such as Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings etc. Finding people who aren't utilising alternate characters (for example, there are two Drow matrons logged in with alternate characters as I type), no matter how much you dance and attract attention is going to be challenging work.

Reducing the space to consolidate what you have is the easier option. Removing non-Drow racial areas and centralising is an easy fix, nor will it affect Edonil and its Drow players in the slightest.

Bravo21 wrote:

In accordance with the OP, the solution that can be made immediately and doesn't require anyone else's aid is to log in and play. There are enough people who want to do 'something' that they will flock to where the action is. More than one or two players have to run with it though.

I agree with you, which is why I'm pushing so hard to facilitate a way to assist this in happening.

Underdark PlayerBase----> We need you.

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