AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

It's specifically coded not to, so if it is, there's a bug somewhere.

To many chiefs and not enough Indians!

I think it was working back during Moshs plot. Nothing overlapped..I think maybe the heal aura did but there was so Mich going on it was hard to watch for the regen stuff.

Last edited by Vortex on Sat, Oct 27 2012, 23:25 PM, edited 2 times in total.

Another question about a mage build and spell saves. Trying to figure out if SF feats are even useful.

I don't want this to be an exercise in frustration and I have a hard time understand all the mechanics of spell saves.

It looks like:
Mage: 10+Spell level+Ability Mod(Int)+Ability Bonuses (max of +6)+Spell Focus feats (2,4,6)
-VS-
Monster (or Player): d20+Base Save(Fort, Will, Reflex)+Ability Mod(Str, Dex, Con)+Ability Bonuses (max of +6)+Item save bonuses (Fort, Will, Reflex to max of +20)

So for my mage, spell DC for an 8th level spell would be max of 38 (10+8+8+6+6).

For an epic monster or player, save would be approximately:
at a min: d20+11+0+0+0 = d20+11 => 12 - 31 => always fail DC except for a roll of 20
at a max: d20+21+10+6+20= d20+57 => 58 - 77 => always succeed DC except for roll of 1
at avg: d20+17+5+3+10 = d20+35 => 36 - 56 => fail on a roll of 1-2, succeed on 3-20

So it looks like the average epic monster or player would succeed on a saving throw against a spell most of the time (~90%) regardless if a mage took spell focus feats or not.

Am I understanding this? Are Spell Focus feats a waste of time? Or are they actually useful?

For Necromancy, looks like the save is often against Fort, whereas for Evocation the save is often against Reflex. I'm guessing most monsters will have a higher Fort than Reflex, so that makes me think Necro spells will fail more often than Evocation spells...

Any help understand this is greatly appreciated.

edit: corrected calculations for max of +6 Ability Modifier. Still, don't see any advantage for taking spell focus feats...

With 40 Int, the DC for an epic focused level 8 spell is 39. I don't know where you're getting 44 from. That's awful high. -- Oh, you're not getting +12 from Ability Modifier. You're getting +6. You'll have a DC 38.

And yes, Spell Focus feats are important.

Spell focuses do not stack, only the highest counts. Hence, your maximum DC for a 8th level spell is 38 with an Epic Spell Focus and 38 Intelligence (+14 Modifier). With 40 Intelligence your DC would be at 39, like Derk said.

It wasn't the spell focuses he was calculating wrong, it was the Ability Modifier bonus. He saw +12 is the max to any stat, but didn't remember it's +6 Modifier.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

With 40 Int, the DC for an epic focused level 8 spell is 39. I don't know where you're getting 44 from. That's awful high. -- Oh, you're not getting +12 from Ability Modifier. You're getting +6. You'll have a DC 38.

And yes, Spell Focus feats are important.

I see the mistake you caught, but still, given the corrected values, why do you say Spell Focus feats are important. What am I not understanding? Seems like just an average build would make the saving throw almost every time even against a mage with all spell focus feats...

That's like explaining why epic weapon specialization is important to a person who thinks that 4 more damage isn't important because the average build has 300 health.

But you can build a wizard or more ideally a sorcerer around a save-less spell-book; icestorm and Issac's greater missile storm will be your bread and butter. For druids and clerics that intend to utilize offensive spells though, spell foci are compulsory.

Because in general, it gives you an additional 30% chance of landing the spell.

Say their saving throw is 30 and your spell DC is 40 with Epic Focus. That's a 45% (1-9) chance of success. Without any focus feats, that DC is now 34. That's a 15% (1-3) chance of success.

Bear in mind that the number of people who have +20 universal saves gear, and +12DEX,+12CON, and +12WIS effects is ....quite low.

I really doubt that there are many characters who carry 3 40's around on their character sheet. Paladins and Blackguards rocking 30+ Charisma could feasibly manage. Most others no, considering everyone also wants lots of +AC or +Ability or +Skill stuff too. Just got to use the right spells.

Many people suggest to max. spot here. What is spot good for, what does it do?

Catches those using sneakiness either rogues rangers and the like who hide off screen and passby or mainly shadowdancers during PvP, high enough spot can render their main strategy null.

High spot and a good spell dc make your casting character less afraid of sneaky assassins by just blasting them while they think you haven't seen them.

I have been looking over this topic in order to create a strong shifter character. I wanted to create what I considered to be a pure shifter where all shapes would be taken and they would be as strong as they reasonably could be without focusing on a specific shape. I know that I need to take Divine Champion, but I have a few questions.

1.) I have seen builds for 4 levels and 6 levels of DC, but I noticed that 2 levels of DC could be taken instead. Is it worth taking 2 DC so that I can maximize my Druid levels in the build (since Druid and Shifter levels affect duration and damage of abilities/spells).

2.) Also I am choosing to not rp the druid levels and instead going pure shifter. Do I have to rp the DC levels or can I ignore them if I don't use the abilities given. I ask since it is required to become an all shape shifter much like Druid levels are required for shifter.

This is my first post on the forum so I apologize if I did anything wrong.

Thanks in advance.

You have to RP the Divine Champion levels. Druid is our only exception in the rules, and only for Shifters.

Depends on the motivation for taking the DC levels. If you take them preepic, you want to have 4 for the extra attack. If you take them all in epic levels anyway, then 2 is enough. Personally I'd suggest that for a shifter, you want to have as many shifter levels as possible. 19 at least!

Coming from a player who has a 10 druid 20 shifter build (to get lots of nice shapes, but not undead)... you may well be hated by the druid community for quite a few of them shapes. Suppose it depends where your going with your rp and if you want to tread on some toes.

As long as you can explain it to them, it's not a big problem. Some characters respond badly to shapes, others don't. On Long, I've never had much of a problem... (Except I don't use Undead shape at all.)

It might be easier to comment if you just see the build I am planning.

Human (Ffolk):
STR-13
INT-13
WIS-19 -> 30

1:Druid 1 (Expertise, Improved Expertise) WIS 19
2:Druid 2
3:Druid 3 (Alertness)
4:Druid 4 WIS 20
5:Druid 5
6:Shifter 1 (Weapon Focus: I chose Scimitar so I could use a shield, but any would work)
7:Shifter 2
8:Shifter 3 WIS 21
9:Shifter 4 (Blind Fight)
10:Shifter 5
11:Shifter 6
12:Shifter 7 (Toughness) WIS 22
13:Shifter 8
14:Shifter 9
15:Shifter 10 (Not Sure)
16:Druid 6 WIS 23
17:Druid 7
18:Druid 8 (Not Sure)
19:Druid 9
20:DC 1 WIS 24
21:DC 2 (GW1 and GW2) WIS 26
22:Shifter 11
23:Shifter 12
24:Shifter 13 (Undead and Outsider Shape) WIS 27
25:Shifter 14
26:Shifter 15
27:Shifter 16 (GW3 and GW4) WIS 29
28:Shifter 17 WIS 30
29:Shifter 18
30:Shifter 19 (Construct and Dragon Shape)

This way I can maximize my druid and shifter levels while still being able to get all the shapes.
As far as who will or won't like me I plan on following Mask's advice and just lying to those people

.
I am working on being tricky. Also any thoughts on those 2 extra feats. I don't really use the combat
feats since my shapes only melee when necessary and even then I try not to be too fancy. Thinking Disarm
So I can do the Wyrmling Damage shield/Gargoyle Combo even easier along with grabbing Aggro when needed.

Lying works!

So you don't really need Weapon Focus of any sort, since it won't help your forms. Also, toughness isn't really needed, since you'll be getting alot of bonus HP with every form. Think about various other feats which may help you. Improved Critical Unarmed helps for any shapes which use either unarmed or monster claws. Empower or Maximise Spell are great feats, because you can use the metamagic on some of the forms you'll have. For example, Empowered Firestorm as the Lizardman Epic Form. Or Maximised Ice Storm as a Rakshasa. If you have spare feats, consider taking Luck of Heroes at the beginning, for a +1 Universal save. Knockdown is also incredibly useful. Even if you don't go to IKD, in the larger shapes it will really help you out.

Edit: Also, you might consider overlooking Dragon Shape. I was a little disappointed by it when I finally got it. In comparison with other shapes, even just some of the normal ones, it seems to be falling behind. Choosing not to take Dragon Shape would mean you don't need DC levels, and could focus on more CL with Druid, or more Shifter. Or you could take a tumble-class. It also leaves you some epic feats available. Think about it!

He needs Weapon Focus cause its a requirement of DC. Aside from that, I'd advise against using disarm since its already given on some shapes, and on others you'll simply never connect with it. If you're planning to use Rakshasa form, I hear that Maximise spell is good, though I've never used it personally. On a side note, I've never understood why people don't like taking 20 shifter levels. >.>

Why are you taking 9 Druid levels if you;re not interested in RPing Druid? As far as I'm concerned if you're not being a Druid, you should cut out at level 5.

Take more DC.

Manarethan wrote:

He needs Weapon Focus cause its a requirement of DC.

Totally forgot about that one! So yes, that's important then!

I beleive the ruling was you take more than 5 druid and you had to rp the druid levels!

Okay so I don't know how to quote yet so I will just clarify and respond in order of post.

1.) I really want Dragon Shape more for the RP and the principle of being able to. It seems odd
to me that a pure shifter 10 Druid/20 Shifter can actually have less shapes then a Druid/DC/Shifter
can. I was thinking of becoming a Dragon at the end of some caves and wait for adventurers to find me
and then send them on quests that further my goals. Can we have metallic dragon skins?

2.) I would love to have a 20 shifter, but like I said above I want all the shapes and 20 shifter levels
won't do that for me. *sad face*. Also I ran intoa build that used damage shields to do the majority
of damage, and they used Disarm to give enemies attacks of opportunity to increase the rate at which
they would take damage from the shield.

3.) I wanted to have the highest CL I possibly could and only Druid levels will stack with Shifter.

4.) Is it really true that I must RP the Druid levels above 5. Seems a bit unfair since it would
require all non-druid shifters to RP a second class. It would also limit the CL to 25 instead of 30.
If it is the ruling I will obviously abide by it, but it make seem a bit odd.

Thanks for the feedback I really appreciate it.

GreatPigeon wrote:

I beleive the ruling was you take more than 5 druid and you had to rp the druid levels!

Yeah, more than 5 levels druid requires you to RP it that way. 5 druid/6 dc/19 shifter is a commonly seen all around build.

Well, the dragonshape is awesome for RP (and partially for the mechanics), but should you focus a bit in other shapes you will be so much tougher. I made an iron golem focused Oghma worshipper once (never got far with him), which now would be amazing. I am pretty sure that the iron golem pre-fix could have tops 45 or 46 AB with maxed strength (which was only possible with Azer shape buff, so basically not doable for more than a very brief time). It was buffed, so you can use epic feats on other shapes.

@Treant13

1: Yeah, you can request a reskin.
4: The 5 levels rule is there because of NWN mechanics, I take it (only druid can become a shifter, opposed to a wizard or sorcerer with alter self). The DMs have given people the opportunity to avoid the druid RP, which actually is very neat. You only lose the ability to cast level 5 druid spells and conjure a low level animal companion. The boons of saves, BAB progression, feats etc. are passive, but a fine boon.

Thinking about coming back and i've got this concept in mind. The Rp reasoning behind this would be the duality between the Svirfneblin's Underdark origins and earthlike tendancies as opposed to his current reverence of Akadi as some psychological salvation / belief in reaction to some trauma he has endured while being underground.

Here's the general idea:

Svirfneblin Cleric 21/Monk7 Deity: Akadi Domains: Travel/Trickery

Total Expected ( stat raise, spells, equipment, fully buffed...)
Str: 10 - 22
Dex: 18 - 36
Con: 10 - 20
Int: 12 - 12
Wis: 17 - 26

Weapons: Kukri

Feats: All duel wielding feats, toughness, don't know about the others yet

Expected AC: (Base) 10 + (Dex) 13 + (Armor- base + Magical Vestment) 5, (Deflection-Shield of Faith) 5, (Natural-+5 amulet) 5, (Dodge) +5 boots, + 3 svirf dodge bonus, Haste= 12 + (Other Sources)Tumble, armor skin, monk AC+ Wisdom AC= 15 - For a total of 65 AC

Casting Flame Weapon or other spells onto the Kamas, and the extra monk attacks should compensate for low base damage.

I've got the feeling AB will be sorta lowish though.

Although Aid, bless, prayer and Divine Favor should compensate somewhat.

Your thoughts?

Dual wielding kamas on a small race causes you to take the heavier penalties for dual wielding as they are small and not tiny weapons. I'd suggest kukris as an alternative.

Kamas will give -2 AB compared to kukris but so many more attacks per round. Clerics are never hurting for AB anyway.

I would think the 18-20 crit range on the kukris tip the scales in their favor, however the better apr progression of kamas (-3 vs -5) could make it up.

Hey I am thinking about playing a fire genasi character. Pure wizard. (maybe wizard 29/rogue 1)

These are what my starting stats look like taking into consideration the subrace modifiers...
STR: 8
DEX: 14
CON: 11
INT: 20
WIS: 13
CHA: 6

Does this seem like a good idea? I was thinking the dex so Id have a bit more ac and the wisdom for slightly better saves? Am I at all in the right neighborhood? I really want to rp him as a loose cannon firebrand evoker type with a chaotic bend and extremely short temper....typical "fiery" redhead....Any pointers would be appreciated.

Tanglebones wrote:

I really want to rp him as a loose cannon firebrand evoker type with a chaotic bend and extremely short temper....typical "fiery" redhead....

This seems to ask for less wisdom.

Take the wisdom and put it into CON.

Yeah. As a wizard you will gain fairly well in will saves anyway, CON is useful for gaining more hitpoints as you level up, boosts your low Fortitude save and it helps your Concentration skill.

The craft domain on the server. Does it only give a bonus to craft traps? or is it general for all crafts?

The domain power gives you a bonus to Craft Armour, Weapon and also Traps I believe. Praying gives you a bonus to saves against traps.

Are double-handed weapons viable in terms of a comparison to other weapons which are two-handed? Double-axe and two-bladed sword are the ones which I am interested in. I can't seem to think of anything that doesn't waste a bunch of feats for them, though. I have a bunch of questions regarding it:

- Does Improved Two Weapon fighting add a bonus attack for this weapon? I assume it does because it's considered dual-wielding, but I wanted to make sure.
- Is the weapon even comparable to others? I'm talking in terms of base stats/numbers, and also the effect on AC. e.g Two-bladed sword vs Greatsword, or vs Longsword + Shield, or vs dual-wielding other weapons etc.
- Should I consider Ranger 9 for the free Improved Two Weapon, assuming he would use light-armor, or should I go for Divine Champion bonus feats and use heavy? (The concept includes a deity which would be appropriate for either of these classes. Alternatively there's fighter levels if I end up changing the concept.)
- Would monk be a viable option for keeping the AC a little higher? I'm considering rogue levels for the sneak attack + skillset that this character would have, so there's already a tumble option included.

8 mythal power slots compared to 5 is the main difference between dual wielding and a double-sided weapon.

Double-sided weapons look badass and have a nice flavour, but are inferior power-wise compared to dual wielding.

They are still a viable option though.

-Yes

-The benefit of the two-sided weapons versus conventional dual wielding is the economical benefit of having only one weapon as well as the offhand side of the two-sided weapon counts as light despite its damage being comparable to a non-light weapon such as a longsword or warhammer. It is also notable that the two-sided weapon cannot be switched out for a single-weapon and a shield in the circumstances that require more AC, unlike conventional dual wielded weapons. If you're going to use a large weapon, I'd say two-handed weapons always trump two-sided weapons because of the feat and ability investment that you need to dual wield effectively. If you're going to dual wield, I'd say conventional dual wielding with two light weapons of the same type always trumps two-sided weapons because of the ability to equip a shield and still benefit from weapon focus and other weapon specific feats on the main-hand. Shield and sword is the most viable choice for most builds hands down.

- Only go ranger if you're going to take a lot of levels, or just one. It really isn't viable to take just 9 ranger levels for any (reasonably powerful) build. Divine Champion or Fighter will serve you well and for most races 15 base dexterity doesn't hurt too much and it means you never need to buff your dexterity while wearing fullplate for the 1 extra AC.

- Monk would be, yeah whether it uses a two-handed weapon or two weapons. Shadowrayne has a monk, weaponmaster, fighter with a greatsword that isn't very squishy compared to other things without shields. You could also consider bard or something with divine shield as a means to getting back some of the lost AC.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

8 mythal power slots compared to 5 is the main difference between dual wielding and a double-sided weapon.

That's pretty misleading as with dual wielding both weapons need keen, damage, enhancement, and typically an attack bonus to get the most damage output. The large weapon is the one that actually ends up with the extra slot for utility when it comes down to it.

Well, the style/badassery of it would likely be why I'm going for Two Bladed. Just trying to finish the concept in my mind, and also work out a way of making it without being super-squishy. This character is likely something I'm going to play during those times when no one's online, so I was trying to work out something which will be more likely to be self-sufficient.

21 Ranger / Fighter 2 / WM 7 is one option I'm looking at, but the lack of UMD/Tumble/Other skills would drive me insane. I'm considering tweaking that to include rogue levels.

Bini wrote:

That's pretty misleading as with dual wielding both weapons need keen, damage, enhancement, and typically an attack bonus to get the most damage output. The large weapon is the one that actually ends up with the extra slot for utility when it comes down to it.

No, because you can put what you like on those mythal slots. If you're a Ranger for example, keen, and with enough levels, GMW are not needed.

8 vs 5 is the main difference mind you, not the only. There is a larger amount of combinations you could utilise with 8 slots vs 5, nothing misleading about that, basic maths.

Both your dual wielding weapons get 4 slots.

Decided to ditch the WM levels, which leaves me with much more feats to play with, etc. Can anyone comment on a 21 Ranger / 4 Fighter / 5 Rogue (Two-bladed Sword as main weapon)? It'd be strength based, not sure I'd be going for Dev Crit though.

Edit: Here it is, what I have so far. I'm wanting it to be a PvE basis in terms of Favoured Enemies.

Human (Or might end up going Elf if I don't need that spare feat!) - Air Genasi
21 Ranger / 4 Fighter / 5 Rogue

STR 15
DEX 10 (+2)
CON 14
WIS 16 (-2)
INT 12 (+2)
CHA 8 (-2)

AE:10 / Discipline:30 / Hide:33 / MS:33 / Spot:33 / UMD:33 / Disable Trap:10 / Set Trap:10 / Open Lock:10
- 7 leftover points.

1 - Blindfight, KD, Fav En: <ENEMY>
3 - Exotic Weapon
4 - +1 STR (16)
5 - Fav En: <ENEMY>
6 - Weapon Focus
8 - +1 STR (17)
9 - Imp Crit
10 - Fav En: <ENEMY>
12 - +1 STR (18), Imp KD
15 - Toughness, Fav En: <ENEMY>
16 - +1 STR (19)
18 - SPARE FEAT HERE <---- What do I need?
20 - +1 STR (20), Fav En: <ENEMY>
21 - Bane of Enemies
22 - (Fighter) Epic Wep Foc
23 - (Fighter) Epic Prowess
24 - (Fighter) +1 STR (21), Armor Skin
25 - (Rogue - Tumble 20, UMD 20)
26 - (Rogue)
27 - (Fighter - Discipline 30) Wep Spec, Epic Wep Spec
28 - (Rogue - Tumble 30) +1 STR (22)
30 - (Rogue) Epic Skill Foc: Spot

I'm afraid if you don't want Super Squishy, you've chosen the wrong class. Ranger is amongst the squishiest of all the classes, sadly. It just doesn't have the protective elements you can get elsewhere. No +AC stuff, no+saves, no +HP...

...Just lots of Damage.

I'm sure the DPS will be awesome. Just not sure how long it will last. Without a shield I'm guesstimating an AC of ...43.

Human (Or might end up going Elf if I don't need that spare feat!) - Air Genasi

This makes a pigeon very nonhappy. It would be many times more preferred to come here with a concept that's much more hashed out than you have here if you want help. Spoilers of some basic stuff before. Seriously though, please come here with a more concrete concept, the build should fit the concept not vice versa.

Here's my most basic feedback, drop 4 levels of rogue, take the 1 level in epic. If you decide you need evasion so badly then take 24 levels of ranger, its not nearly as good though imho.

Toughness is a silly feat

If you are not going to use a shield get improved disarm for uber-nice bonus to AB.

If you take the 4 less rogue levels you get a feat at Ranger 23 and Ranger 25, in epic.

I'm playing my first ever (RDD) Dragon Desciple, and I have a question about the breath weapon.

The feat description ingame says "dealing 1d10 per DD level with a Reflex save for half damage."
So with 10 DD levels shouldn't this be a MINIMUM of 100 dmg or 50 if they make the save? The highest dmg I've seen was 52 on a failed save, and in the low 20s otherwise.

Is there something else going on that doesn't report in the combat log? Maybe the creature has some immunity to the energy type [negative]?

No, a maximum of 100. Between 10 and 100. It should average around 55 on failed saves, 28 on passes.

If there was Damage Resistance involved I'm sure the log would say. Could try it on different critters to be sure, some goblins or something with no saves and no resistances.

Oh DUH... I really did go to elementary school.

Thanks. Knew I had to be adding something wrong.

What's most preferable; Disarm + Improved Disarm, or Knockdown + Epic Prowess?

Gobbledygook wrote:

Knockdown + Epic Prowess?

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