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Silkelock
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Posted: Mon, Nov 26 2012, 16:55 PM |
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Player
Joined: 17 Jun 2011 Location: Sweden
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Well, the undead armors mentioned for the Pale master have written examples further into the book. Such as Wight Shield, Zombie hide, Exoskeleton etc. Remember, the PM by default PnP gets medium armor  Ergo, some armors could be very useful.
_________________ Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.
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kolde
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 8:46 AM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2011
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IronAngel wrote: TaliaZalinNalla wrote: In amia it has been RP that the final stages or elements of the rituals consisted of permanently encasing yourself in a set of bone-mail. To resemble another "modification" of the flesh using the PM abilities. It could be considered a graft. That's a pretty clever interpretation of Tough As Bones/Deathless Mastery, and it has connection to the Armor Affinity ability quoted above. Probably the most credible explanation of all those immunities and traits without assuming him to be "really" half undead inside, somehow. EDIT: Though it occurs to me it couldn't really be a proper armor set, not usually. They still get arcane spell failure, after all. I doubt they would want to graft onto themselves a permanent obstacle to spellcasting. But I imagine spell failure wouldn't have to apply if it's just something flexible around their torso. A quote from the Libris Mortis, think it explains rather clearly how the final effects of deathless matery come about... Deathless Mastery (Ex): On reaching 10th level, a pale master gains the virtues of his deathless arts. His body becomes partly mummified (though he is not truly undead), and he becomes immune to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, death effects, critical hits, ability drain, and energy drain, as well as damage to his physical ability scores (Str, Dex, and Con). He still needs to breathe, eat, and sleep as normal for his type, and he still ages normally.
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Liz
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 10:10 AM |
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Player
Joined: 28 May 2010 Location: Smallville
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"Becomes" is a colossally vague word. This "becoming" could just as easily mean a process of ritual or grafting.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
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kolde
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 14:34 PM |
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Joined: 30 Jun 2011
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Sure it is vague, and there would be many ways to go about it, but the end result would be the same, the immunities enjoyed are due to partial mummification.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 14:59 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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It doesn't actually say that, though. I agree the conjuction suggests something like that interpretation, but it doesn't explicitly say that. "And" doesn't imply causation. And in fact, I have a hard time seeing how partial mummification would account for immunity to sleep effects or mental ability drains, even if it could explain the physical immunities (which is far from clear).
The intent is probably something like that: he mortifies his flesh so that it's no longer as vulnerable (and this might include protective grafts), but the class description is far from conclusive on the matter.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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kolde
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 15:12 PM |
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Player
Joined: 30 Jun 2011
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IronAngel wrote: It doesn't actually say that, though. I agree the conjuction suggests something like that interpretation, but it doesn't explicitly say that. "And" doesn't imply causation. And in fact, I have a hard time seeing how partial mummification would account for immunity to sleep effects or mental ability drains, even if it could explain the physical immunities (which is far from clear).
The intent is probably something like that: he mortifies his flesh so that it's no longer as vulnerable (and this might include protective grafts), but the class description is far from conclusive on the matter. It does actually say that though, I literally copy pasted it from a pdf of the Libris Mortis. Unless I am misunderstanding your point, I do not see how it could be read otherwise.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 18:12 PM |
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Joined: 29 Sep 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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I mean it doesn't literally say the mummification causes those immunities: "His body becomes partly mummified (though he is not truly undead), and he becomes immune to ..." Not "consequently", "because of this", "and by virtue of this mummification" or anything else implying causation.
It may simply be sloppy English, but it does make it ambigious and open to different interpretations.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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CouncilofAutumn
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 19:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2010
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IronAngel wrote: I mean it doesn't literally say the mummification causes those immunities: "His body becomes partly mummified (though he is not truly undead), and he becomes immune to ..." Not "consequently", "because of this", "and by virtue of this mummification" or anything else implying causation.
It may simply be sloppy English, but it does make it ambigious and open to different interpretations. It's not like people go "Man, Fighters get a lot of feats. But how are they so good with swords? I don't get it." A lot of class abilities and feats (and spells for that matter) are phrased in an abbreviated (granted, sloppy), manner. I don't know anybody who goes "But does the Improved Natural Armor feat give you tougher skin as an aside to the +1 you get to your natural armor bonus or is it simply an unrelated aesthetic modification? We may never know." Okay... I know one guy.
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serbiris
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 19:24 PM |
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Player
Joined: 14 Sep 2010 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Well it's really not even clear what this partial mummification entails.
_________________ @Thanatopsis#6293
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 19:29 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Yes but this context is in no way clear and obvious. It's a list of many modifications that happen when you reach this certain level of Deathless Mastery. Much like Dragon Disciples take on half-dragon traits at Dragon Apotheosis, Pale Masters take on more undead traits at Deathless Mastery. What follows is a list of changes, including mummified flesh, immunity to sleep and ability drains, etcetera.
You're reading more into it if you think that instead of a list where these things are equal parallels, it's actually a causal chain. That might be the intention, but you would have to argue for it with something additional. And to be honest, it doesn't really make fair sense to say mummified fingers make you immune to sleep, so the case is not intuitively obvious. Mummification is clearly one of the things that happen at this level, but it doesn't seem to be the only one.
And besides, methodologically, we should always try to read as much room as possible into canon definitions. If you have an ambigious passage with two equally reasonable explanations, you should choose the one which allows the most player fluff and interpretation. Well, that's the rule of thumb I go by, anyway.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
Last edited by IronAngel on Wed, Dec 12 2012, 19:37 PM, edited 1 time in total.
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CouncilofAutumn
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 19:37 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2010
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serbiris wrote: Well it's really not even clear what this partial mummification entails. True, but what I'm refuting here is the assertation that the body modification is somehow unrelated. That it's not specific enough is ironically clear.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 19:39 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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CouncilofAutumn wrote: serbiris wrote: Well it's really not even clear what this partial mummification entails. True, but what I'm refuting here is the assertation that the body modification is somehow unrelated. That it's not specific enough is ironically clear. I never made such an assertion. I pointed out that the quoted passage does not explicitly show, beyond a shadow of doubt, that all the immunities are (only or partially) a result of the mummification. Kolde presented the quote as a counter-argument to the existing player-interpretation of grafting bone armor pieces onto your body to get the effect. I was defending that idea by showing the source does not directly contradict it. The possibility of a different reading is enough, though I personally agree that the mummification seems to produce at least the physical immunities, at least partially.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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CouncilofAutumn
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 19:53 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2010
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IronAngel wrote: I mean it doesn't literally say the mummification causes those immunities: "His body becomes partly mummified (though he is not truly undead), and he becomes immune to ..." Not "consequently", "because of this", "and by virtue of this mummification" or anything else implying causation. Now this could be sloppy English, or here you are stating that it does not imply causation, in effect stating that it is possibly unrelated. I'm telling you it's quite a stretch to go there, on the level with saying that a class ability that gives you wings and a fly speed doesn't necessarily mean the wings are what makes you fly.
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IronAngel
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 20:01 PM |
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Player
Joined: 29 Sep 2005 Location: Helsinki, Finland
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Yes: that's a possible reading. There's a big difference asserting that something is the case, and asserting it's a possibility. It was categorically stated that the mummification causes all the immunities. I said that's not what the description literally says.
And I don't think it's anywhere close to the stretch you make it out to be. I honestly never thought the mummification directly caused all those immunities, and I've read the entry many times. To me at least, it looks much like the Dragon Disciple lvl 10 feat. It's just a list of changes you undergo. It's common sense that wings let you fly (except in the case of dragons, though), but it's not common sense that mummification makes you immune to sleep. I'm not sure how you would intuitively make that interpretation.
_________________ On Joon, Kjetta wrote: The guy that probably has sexual fantasies about masturbation. I mean, Iron, you're a bookworm nerd that even in your wildest escapism fantasies flee to the internet to play the role of another bookworm nerd? Come on!
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CouncilofAutumn
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Posted: Wed, Dec 12 2012, 20:21 PM |
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Player
Joined: 11 Dec 2010
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Because it's the most logical interpretation of the wording. You learn how to make yourself more undead. Fluff description: You become "partially mummified." Game mechanics: you gain part of the immunities and benefits of being undead.
It is the only explanation provided. Assuming that they're related is a logical step. Assuming that they're unrelated is a stretch.
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