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Hey. I like to think of myself as a Druid fanatic as they are one class I always play and it was actually my first build on here, but I am a little confused on what armor they can wear. I've heard Ironwood being a sort of excuse to wear full plate, but again, I am at a loss. Could someone clarify to me in mechanic terms as to what the highest armor a Druid could wear without recieving penalties form his diety. I know Mielikki allows her rangers to wear metal of some sort.

I've never seen an ironwood full plate on Amia. If such an item doesn't exist, I think it's cheesy to say "No really. This isn't metal!" But that might just be me.

The metal thing isn't a restriction that only applies to Heavy armor either. There are plenty of medium armors that would be metallic. Though I have seen otherwise-would-be-metal medium armors that are made of non-metallic materials based on the description.

Yar, I've heard alot of people say that they are wearing Ironwood full plate, which is why I ask here, what is the judgement on this?

Rangers have no restrictions on what they use. Mielikki druids however, can wear anything a ranger *can normally wear (which is light/medium, but not fullplate).

Druids can wear armour made from dragonscales (there's two I can think of, both highish and of normally-metal types), and Laerel's storm armour/armour of earth's children, which have been specified as druid-compatible (they're not made of metal anyway).

**I'm fairly sure it is actually possible to craft ironwood fullplate using the job system - not completely sure but I think I've heard of it. And they could wear that. But no, you can't just say it's ironwood, or ankheg plate, or dragonscale, or otherwise unless it actually is any of those things. Last I heard.

*edited for clarity

**Here we go, straight from the job system: "An armour made from ironwood. Ironwood is highly fire resistant. Its tree is commonly referred to, among lumberjacks and loggers of the realms as simply "axe-breakers", the wood once harvested is comparable to iron and can even be shaped in a forge much the same as conventional metals. Druids can wear this armour without hurting their deity's feelings. [ticket, 24 Jul 2009]"

Druid restrictions are silly anyway. "Sorry, wielding that straight sword disconnects you from nature... that broad curved one is peachy though." C'est la vie.

The rule is, if you're not a Druid of Mielikki, no extensive worked metal use for you and all the Druidic restrictions as to what you can use apply. Druids of Mielikki function as a ranger would, and so they aren't restricted like a normal Druid is, when it comes to weapons and armor.

Mind one thing, however. Druids are allowed to craft non-metal weapons that aren't a part of their restricted items and use it without worry. For example, a Druid of Silvanus can craft a wooden maul of some sort for himself and he can use it. Druids aren't really the best at crafting anything beyond basic though, usually.

When it comes to armor, some people will say that full plate made from kosher materials is still a no go for Druids, because a Druid isn't granted the ability to use full plate by default. Others will say that it's okay, so long as it's not metal. The truth of the matter is this: "Though a druid could learn to wear full plate, putting it on would violate her oath and suppress her druidic powers." Personally, I've always been split on the topic. I believe we've historically allowed Druids to wear full plate, as long as it's not metal though. Given that, on Amia, you're fine.

So I have a question then. If I were to make a Druid Warrior of Mielikki, I would be clear to use half plate or so and use a scimitar, would it be okay to say that the half plate is half ironwood, half leather?

That's fine. Rangers aren't restricted to only wear certain armors. Your Druid of Mielikki is basically a Ranger of Mielikki, in practice. If a Ranger of Mielikki can wear it or use it, your Druid of Mielikki can too.

Mind that only goes for BASE ranger proficiencies. Rangers don't start with heavy armor, so half plate unless made of a non metal material is right out. Anything is OK as long as it's a nonmetal, or a non "worked metal", which I take to mean "man forged". To me this means a primitive Chultan or Maztican culture making pig iron scimitars crudely is okay for a Druid to use. But an elf making a fine steel scimitar is not okay for a Druid to use. It has to do with the dominance of Man over Nature that causes the Druid to fall for using the equipment more than anything, imo.

Seems like a good enough time to ask again this question I asked years ago and never got a definite answer because of a textual screaming match with Funi.

Could a druid use a tower shield that was made of, say, a giant tortoise shell and whale bone? Or full "plate" that was enchanted chuul chitin? Or any number of equivalent heavy armor AC that is made of natural, not heavily manufactured materials?

Similarly, what about non-druid proficiency weapons that are made of horn, bone, stone, and so forth? I had the use of a whip approved for a svirfneblin druid by Oarthias that was either a vine or, like, a severed, treated roper tentacle. (I don't remember which, this was years ago.)

Would something like that still be allowed today?

Quote:

Could a druid use a tower shield that was made of, say, a giant tortoise shell and whale bone? Or full "plate" that was enchanted chuul chitin? Or any number of equivalent heavy armor AC that is made of natural, not heavily manufactured materials?

Yes. But this is pretty much exlcusively the realm of DC requests because the standard heavy items are almost 100% metal.

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Similarly, what about non-druid proficiency weapons that are made of horn, bone, stone, and so forth? I had the use of a whip approved for a svirfneblin druid by Oarthias that was either a vine or, like, a severed, treated roper tentacle.

I don't see why not, but Druid is specifically disallowed (in nwn) from taking weapon proficiency feats.

And it's immensely silly that druids can't use bows IMO! Couldn't it just be assumed that most mid level druids can use Transmute Metal to Wood and follow it with an Ironwood spell on the gear they find?

No, because that's PnP stuff and transmuting magical items like that is either not possible or it ruins the item.

Alright would it be okay to say if I used a scimitar made of obsidian or stone?

It really doesn't matter terribly much because the only decent druid gear is in a shop, but really heavily enforcing it runs into some ugly lore issues. What about magical jewelry? Small amounts of precious metals take ugly mines and just as much working as arms and armor. Where is the "line" and what is it's justification?

I agree. I think think the bow thing is beyond stupid. And to be quite frank, I don't care if Druids use them. The bow is one of the coolest primitive weapons.

As for the turtle shells tower shield, yes. But make a request, as said. Druids are allowed to craft weapons with kosher materials, as I said earlier. Within reason, of course, and always by request please. Whip is fine by me too.

Scimitars are fine for Druids. I don't agree that Elven made scimitars would not be okay. Elves are the most in tune with nature common race. Just because it looks nice doesn't mean it's bad, imo.

Druids aren't completely disallowed the use of metal. Anyone who told you that is dead wrong. Druids just can't use "a lot" of metal. The line is thin, admittedly. However, it should be said that Druid sometimes make jewelry, traditionally metal weapons and even day to day things (like pans and pots) out of wood and the use of the ironwood spell. Of course, bones and other such raw items are also used.

Alright, I was just making sure.

I didn't want to make a Druid Warrior wearing Studded leather, a scimitar and large shield and then be smacked for being a bad druid.

How much leeway do we have in saying that our various non-visible equipment (amulets, rings, boots, belts) are made of whatever material; such as leather, fur, stone, braided vines, feathers, quills, fangs, and so forth?

Gunz wrote:

The bow is one of the coolest primitive weapons.

Especially since NWN won't let us have awesome things like blow guns, actually effective poison darts, and atlatl + javelin.

is anyone actually using primitive bows anymore?..all composit bows are way more complex than say a crossbow for instance, longbows are very hard to create aswell where they are any good in hunting...not to mention warfare..

*edited

Quote:

How much leeway do we have in saying that our various non-visible equipment (amulets, rings, boots, belts) are made of whatever material; such as leather, fur, stone, braided vines, feathers, quills, fangs, and so forth?

Pretty big leeway. Even PnP concerns itself primarily with the Big Three: Weapon, Armor, Shield.

The only thing I'd raise concern about is the Heavy Iron War Boots (or something like that), and even then, I wouldn't fall.

Okay I have a druid related question.

Gwaeron Windstrom. From what I see in the wiki, it looks like he gives druid spells but I'm not completely sure seeing that I have not seen Windstromian Druid

Is his faith even known within Amia other then mentions in books or passages?

He does indeed give druid spells according to FRCS. I can't say if his faith can be found on Amia though but it and probably every other deity is known by at least the sort of people who know things about gods, particularly nature gods. He's not like some unknown deity... I think.

Sin4given wrote:

Okay I have a druid related question.

Gwaeron Windstrom. From what I see in the wiki, it looks like he gives druid spells but I'm not completely sure seeing that I have not seen Windstromian Druid

Is his faith even known within Amia other then mentions in books or passages?

Windstrom is often seen more as the patron of rangers, and is often considered their paragon, along with Mielikki. His worship is fairly rare on Amia, but not totally unknown.

Sin4given wrote:

Okay I have a druid related question.

Gwaeron Windstrom. From what I see in the wiki, it looks like he gives druid spells but I'm not completely sure seeing that I have not seen Windstromian Druid

Is his faith even known within Amia other then mentions in books or passages?

Yes, he is a Druid supporting god.

His faith is known on Amia, yes, but probably not that well outside of the nature-loving circles. The reason being that Amia is solidly connected to the North, via the leylines, and that's where Gwaeron Windstroms worship is strongest, by far.

One thing to remember about Gwaeron though is that a divine servant of Gwaeron is also a worshiper of Mielikki. It's not possible to be a ranger, druid, cleric, divine champ or paladin of Gwaeron without being a worshiper of Mielikki.

You might be asking "Why?" The answer is because to worship Gwaeron -is- to worship Mielikki. He is her divine agent in the North. He doesn't even technically have a church. Think of him like a Saint to the Catholic faith. You can pray to the Saint (Gwaeron), but you're ultimately a faithful of Christ (Mielikki). That's the easiest way I can think to explain it. Another way to explain it would be that Gwaerons faithful are just Mielikkian who are sworn to Gwaerons service. His faith is just a branch of Mielikkis faith.

Fun Fact: Fenmarel Mestarine gets along better with Gwaeron than he does most of the Seldarine! (BUT YOUR PCs DON'T KNOW THAT!)

Coolio. Thanks for the info on that diety now I have one last one..

Nobanion. He's considered a Druid God, a sort of leader of the pack or pride you could say. Wemics hold him in very high regards. If a druid worshipped Nobanion, could they possibly summon a Wemic? I don't think we have the models for that but It's just an inquiry.

I'm interested in making a Nobanionite Druid

I suppose you could, but I'd suggest a lion or a tiger or something instead specifically because we don't have wemics.

I don't see why not. But yeah, we don't have the skin, so that's not a good idea here on Amia.

Resurrecting this thread because I'm still confused.... so a druid can't use tower shields or heavy armor because it's assumed they'd all be made out of metal? But someone pointed out that some medium armor is made out of metal too. Also, they can't use a metal weapon even if it is a druid weapon like a scimitar? Is this 'ironwood' stuff store bought and easy to find or are all amian druids running around naked? If not, does that mean basically any lowbie druid can't buy armor or weapons from shops until they find any of that stuff- which makes druid an incredibly difficult starting class given that no others have a roleplay restriction that takes their core class components (like wearing armor and using a weapon) away.

Druids are one of the easiest starting classes even with restrictions. You summon, use your companion, buff and either use stealth or invisibility potions for quite a long time if you're not in a party.

I am unsure about the tower shield reasoning. It could be made out of wood, etc so I dont know if that would free a druid to use a tower shield if they have the shield proficiency feat or if they took a different class.

As for armor types studded leather or Hide. It loses 1 armor AC compared to chain shirt and has the same as chainmail (assuming your dexterity is up there). You're not a melee tanking class so you cant argue that it is not fair to have the same AC as one who does. If you'd like to argue that we can start with why dont fighter's get spells or animal companions, etc.

Some nature deities in fact let their druids wear metal armor even.

All the references I found online concerning druid sickle and scimitar is in reference to cutting mistletoe and other herbs.

Aaaand some people will make you ironwood job system armour for next to nothing.

GreatPigeon wrote:

I am unsure about the tower shield reasoning. It could be made out of wood, etc so I don't know if that would free a druid to use a tower shield if they have the shield proficiency feat or if they took a different class.

Some nature deities in fact let their druids wear metal armor even.

Exactly, I think the idea that all full plate and tower shields are metal comes down to how they're represented by graphics. There are now plenty of wooden shield models, and if we're in a game with MAGIC, I don't see how natural armor can't be magically enhanced to be as strong as metal types (class 8 )

I guess what I'm asking for is The DM Team's answer. It'd be nice to know if it's a ruling that all druids will 'fall' if they use anything metal (or a class 8 or towel shield made of ironwood or roleplayed to be very enhanced wood) from a feat they gained from another class.

All natural materials, such as Dragon scales, Bulette shells, vines/wood, and other things like that should be ok even with Heavy armor, but they would need a DC request (except Dragonscales armor)

There do exist several sets of armour explicitly stated as not being metal - two are plate, one of which is high-end. Possibly others, though I think the epic stuff has too much metal in it to be kosher. There are some others which aren't plate.

Also druids of Mielikki can wear whatever metal light/medium armour they want, but still not metal plate.

I maintain that tower shields should be made out of wood (and in P&P it is even explicitly stated - metal tower shields appear in a splat book and have different numbers) with few exceptions. DM's call here though.

Basically the druid equipment rules are about the fact that certain equipment interferes with their connection to nature. It's kind of arbitrary, but basically some metal is okay, but too much basically means "industry" which is anathema to a druid. For armour it's pretty simple - scale, chain and higher grades made of metal are out. For weapons it doesn't make a lot of sense. There isn't really a good reason for why scimitars are okay but short swords aren't. But that exception aside, most of the other druid weapons contain very little metal - spears are fine, arrows *should* be fine.

serbiris wrote:

There isn't really a good reason for why scimitars are okay but short swords aren't. But that exception aside, most of the other druid weapons contain very little metal - spears are fine, arrows *should* be fine.

According to some thing I read about druids a bit back, scimitars have become the quintessential weapon for druids in roleplaying and video games due to a misunderstanding of what qualifies as a sickle.

Okay, I got curious and went to look for it:

"Druidic armor is usually limited to cloth and leather. Many druids can use shields, and they usually have access to a limited selection of weaponry. Due to a misunderstanding regarding what can be considered a sickle, scimitars are a common, almost quintessential druidic weapon; other common druid weapons are staves, clubs and other blunt weapons, daggers, darts, slings, and spears. Druids are usually not able to dual wield."

http://www.giantbomb.com/druids/92-4091/

The AD&D2 Druid book I think also allowed most things to be used if they were made of primitive materials such as stone or bone and had stat adjustments for weapons made of such materials. Plate mail made of giant insect chitin seems to be the go-to druid armor on other servers if you want to invest in Heavy Armor feat. (Which, admittedly doesn't mean much HERE, but...)

So time for some literal examples and literal answers

You say there's some sets of armor that are class 6 or above? or class 7? And the description states they are non-metal? So if acquired, would be ok to wear?

But if I buy a 20 gp scimitar from a forest store or Winya or something, I'm violating my druid oaths?

If I do these things that "violate oaths" (which appear as if they could be up for debate ICly anyway, based upon the mielikki thing, if it's allowed to have metal why not plate, it's just a moveability issue) is a DM going to change my alignment or take away my druid levels? Is it akin to doing evil things as a LG paladin?

Technically "any old scimitar" isn't good but there's nothing specifically in the rules about it so I wouldn't go nuts over it unless you really wanted to.

There's kosher class 8 armours - I'm actually not sure about 6's and 7's. A few 5's though. I haven't seen the mid/low level druid plate in a while but I'm sure it's around.

You can't really debate the Mielikki variance - again, metal isn't categorically denied, it really has always been about quantity. A little metal doesn't have a lot to do with civilisation, therefore it doesn't disrupt your connection to nature. A lot - like a full suit of clanking plates - does. But yes, if you do this routinely it will cause you to become a fallen druid until you Atone. If you do it like once or twice not really understanding the class I'm sure it's fine. But really best not to make a habit of it.

I think if you approach this question expecting it to make sense lore-wise, you're just going to end up confused and frustrated. The decision to bar druids from using heavy armor was primarily a game balance issue, and any lore explanation you might be given will be pieced together after the fact, trying to retroactively extract IC sense from an OOC question.

Lizzie wrote:

I think if you approach this question expecting it to make sense lore-wise, you're just going to end up confused and frustrated. The decision to bar druids from using heavy armor was primarily a game balance issue, and any lore explanation you might be given will be pieced together after the fact, trying to retroactively extract IC sense from an OOC question.

what

there's a ton of heavy armor made of non metal

wtf are you talking about

I think it's more idiosyncratic game design in earlier editions rather than a matter of game balance - especially since in 3.5, druid is so horribly broken and overpowered that to consider the taboo of fullplate as a mitigating factor is laughable. And NWN just takes after P&P without much considering game balance anyway.

But yeah it doesn't make a lot of sense.

TormakSaber wrote:

Lizzie wrote:

I think if you approach this question expecting it to make sense lore-wise, you're just going to end up confused and frustrated. The decision to bar druids from using heavy armor was primarily a game balance issue, and any lore explanation you might be given will be pieced together after the fact, trying to retroactively extract IC sense from an OOC question.

what

there's a ton of heavy armor made of non metal

wtf are you talking about

There may be lots of that armor, but, for game balance reasons, druids aren't proficient with it. They only get Light Armor Proficiency and Medium Armor Proficiency. That's wtf I'm talking about. Wtf are you talking about?

IC lore: Druids do not use metal because metal cannot be gained without harming the ground. Hence they use metal as little as possible. I never really understood the Scimitar thing either (one of those D&D oddities). Daggers and Sickles don't have too much metal on them.

Side Fact: Most Druids 'prefer' lighter clothing seeing aside of a few exceptions, most live and navigate in the wilds and would like swift and easy movement there.

NWN: I doubt it is possible to script a difference between a heavy Iron Armor and a Heavy Dragonscale armor in regarding what you 'can' wear feat wise.

Personal Opinion: If you want to use heavy armor and are not a druid of Mielikki you'd need to wear one not made of metal. In this case in 'my' opinion you need to bite the sour apple and also either get one that already exists IG that is definately not metal at all or get a custom one with a custom description and name (Job System, DC Request), meaning not just buy/pick up the next best Full Plate and then say "but hey I RP it as beetle shell!".

However, the last part is my very personal opinion and not a DM ruling, though I would admitadly like it to be one.

Lizzie wrote:

TormakSaber wrote:

Lizzie wrote:

I think if you approach this question expecting it to make sense lore-wise, you're just going to end up confused and frustrated. The decision to bar druids from using heavy armor was primarily a game balance issue, and any lore explanation you might be given will be pieced together after the fact, trying to retroactively extract IC sense from an OOC question.

what

there's a ton of heavy armor made of non metal

wtf are you talking about

There may be lots of that armor, but, for game balance reasons, druids aren't proficient with it. They only get Light Armor Proficiency and Medium Armor Proficiency. That's wtf I'm talking about. Wtf are you talking about?

o, you're talking about bioware hardcoded proficiencies. Nevermind.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

IC lore: Druids do not use metal because metal cannot be gained without harming the ground. Hence they use metal as little as possible.

Okay... how about coins? Can a druid collect and spend mined, city-minted gold and silver coins? How about gemstones? Those are cut out of the ground, too. Chalk? Clay? Salt? All mined.

I'm not saying a druid should be barred from these thing... I'm just saying the "druids don't like metal" and "druids don't like mining" tropes are nonsensical and inconsistent and arbitrary. Trying to invent a lore reason why druids can't wear metal armor will always raise more questions than it answers, because it's not a rule based in lore.

Thats not invented. That is the Lore reason. DnD Lore is hardly flawless, but that is not new, is it?

I'd just get rid of the arbitrary restrictions all together. Too many exceptions and logical fallacies to ever really make sense. IE they are proficient in scimitars but not hunting bows? Meeeeh.

I'm sure some source, somewhere says druids don't like metal because it hurts the ground. And another source probably says it disturbs their connection with nature. I don't think either are consistently true, though. And you can be sure many sources don't make such mentions at all.

I think they're best viewed as an archaic, counter-cultural sect with strict rules of admission. Many of their beliefs and codes have to do with setting the bar of entry high and marking a clear distinction between them and the rest. Sociologically, it's a group identity thing. There are theological arguments, of course, but they're probably not the ultimate motivation. Tradition a value in itself. That's why we needn't expect druidic rules to make a lot of sense.

And that's why, because there's no cosmic inevitability, there can be exceptions and concessions to the druid code. I don't think Amia's ever had a problem with druids using bows, for example. And given a good request, I don't think the DMs would disapprove of a druid who for some particular reason opposed many druidic beliefs and retained his spells. Ultimately they answer to their gods and gods tolerate a lot of deviance, after all.

3e Druids are a messed up class, anyway. The edition clearly moved towards a more inclusive, less particular interpretation of druidism (as with other classes, too). Problematically, though, they repeated the clichés of druids protecting the Balance etc. and forgot that they'd expanded the druid concept: Malar's dogma specifically states to "suffer no druid to live, for they believe not in survival of the strong, but in a weak-minded balance that allows the inferior to survive and often to rule." And yet druids of Malar exist in 3e. Clearly druids no longer mean what they used to mean, but there was no concentrated effort to update it and make it consistent.

I've always viewed the Druidic disdain for refined metal as being an issue with compounding.

For instance; Not only is iron ore mined from the ground or beneath it doing ecological damage in the process, it's then smelted into ore using a reducing agent such as Coke or more commonly in the realms charcoal which produces a pollutant, and charcoal is sourced by clear cutting old growth to. Given a dieties portfolio is reflective of it's worshippers, as Iron alluded to, that traditionlist sect may have at one time thought "Well metal refining is totally aweful with regards to this arbitrary definition of balance we've come up with" and adopted a no-refined metal clause which in turn said diety has adopted into their dogma to the point that the Diety prevents druids from casting spells in metal armor.

As for bows, I'm not sure. I've never been overly keen on Druids with Bows because it seems to advantageous for a druid to use. Yet the common counter argument is the scimitar or sickle.

Thats just one of any number of interpretations you could come up with obviously, and thats part and parcel with the enjoyment one gets from Roleplaying, being creative with your interpretation of the Lore.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

I'd just get rid of the arbitrary restrictions all together. Too many exceptions and logical fallacies to ever really make sense. IE they are proficient in scimitars but not hunting bows? Meeeeh.

+1

P Three wrote:

NinjaClarinet wrote:

I'd just get rid of the arbitrary restrictions all together. Too many exceptions and logical fallacies to ever really make sense. IE they are proficient in scimitars but not hunting bows? Meeeeh.

+1

Exactly. Aren't there loads of other class combinations that should by their nature be "wrong"? What if a druid is a hermit, an outcast from his group and deviates from the thinking of 10 individuals but NOT from that of his god? Is the devotion of the druid to their oaths then determined by how well they're accepted into Tree Club?

Are there any Team rulings on any of this or possibly in the future? Because even if I base my druid's actions off of one of the more potentially metal-accepting gods, it won't matter how I interpret it or how well I roleplay it if a DM tells me it's not possible and makes my druid Fall.

I never thought they were overpowered in NwN (excluding dragon shape) so I don't see how giving them armor would do that.

I don't think we should summarily remove lore-rules any more than we should arbitrarily introduce new ones. Dealing with it is part of the fun. But it's a fact that the enforcement of druid equipment code hasn't been particularly draconian on Amia. I'm not sure what the current situation is, but some years back it was more a matter of gentle encouragement than forced rebuilds or Fall widgets.

Either way, there's potential for good interpretations and arguments against the traditional druidic oaths, and you take away the possibility of acting them out in game with DM attention and player interaction if you just OOCly say the standard doesn't matter at all.

You shouldn't ask for a team ruling beforehand, because that solves the matter before any RP takes place. You should rather just see what happens, and defend your case if it becomes a problem.

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