AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Last edited by Mushidoz on Wed, Jan 30 2013, 19:16 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I would like to start a discussion on spell resistance.

There are three ways to obtain spell resistance (which do not stack)

1) You are monk of 12+
2) You use a spell/scroll
3) You use a cloak/robe/armor/item that gives spell resistance

The way spell resist works is, if the spell resist is positive (for example, 12 spell resist), then the caster will roll a d20, which will be added to their caster level + bonus from spell penetration and other feats alike. That value will then be opposed to the target's spell resistance, flat, no +d20.

Doing the right math, it means that the maximum a caster can reach is 30 + d20 + 6, for a total of 37 to 56.

If we now go back to the spell resistance source..

1) The maximum a monk can reach on Amia is 42 (without improved spell resistance epic feats)
2) A spell/scroll can net you a 21 to 42 (not sure)
3) An item can give you a max of 32

Here are therefore my observations...

1) Pure monks are pretty good against mages when it comes to resist their spells
2) One of the only counter to mages is being a mage...
3) The cloak/armor/items are all completely useless against other PCs and most creatures that matter, given that their caster level is probably way higher than the 32 cloak/armor/robe can give you

Conclusion:

The cloak/armor/whatever that give magic resist are pretty much overrated/overpriced in most cases.

Thoughts? (I personally find it sad)

(Source: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_resistance)

EDIT: Changed "useless" to "overrated"

You forgot that drow and svirfneblin get racial SR.

Not really sure about your maths - you seem to assume that the maximum is the default, which is skewing your perspective.

Items give a max of 32 SR, which is higher than even a pure mage's caster level (30) - so how can a caster level be "way higher" than 32?. 5% immunity to magic isn't much, but it's not useless. All for one mythal slot on armour. Given that most casters are closer to ~26CL, the % of magic immunity increases. Spell Penetration feats reduce the %, but that costs feats - a wizard could've spent that feat (or item slot) on something else though, so it's a fair trade-off.

Just because you can't shrug off every spell that comes your way doesn't make it useless. It's just not game-changing gear, that's all.

The problem is, you're making an assumption all mages have 30 CL or/and have all the Spell Penetration feats. They don't.

The spell resistance armor is fantastic. It makes you essentially immune to offensive scroll use, shields off a large majority of PvM spells and makes it pretty difficult for 23/6/1 caster builds in PvP, too.

Edit: gettin' ninja'd all day

Mind you guys, I wear a robe +32 magic armor ^^ Just saying that in many case, 10 magic armor is the very same as wearing 32

Forgot drow with their 39SR at level 28.

On average, a 30th level caster will roll 31 to 50 to beat SR without Spell penetration feats. However, since SR is not intended to give anyone actual invulnerability to spells and effects, the current SR generated on items is about where it should be, just less than what a dedicated caster can attain. Also, the SR even as low as it is, does a reasonable job of fending off a majority of the spell inflicting traps and most of the multi-class casters, it's the price you pay for not being a dedicated class, jack of all trades and all that.

I doubt that anyone will actually take the bait and agree that the SR on items needs to be increased, it's not the balance teams fault that so many people thought that 17 caster levels was good for dealing with SR.

Just out of curiosity... why can't drow and svirfneblin take the improved SR feats? Is that a mechanical limitation of the custom races, or an intentional decision?

Mechanical limitation.

"A custom class must have this feat in their feat list, or that class will not be able to select it as a general feat."

I am no scripter, and I do not think this is essential / worth implementing, but while I understand "drow" is a race, not a custum class, I am tempted to believe there would be a way for that feat to be selectable with scripting. Anyone? I find this interesting so far..

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Improved_spell_resistance

It's not about drow being a race and not a class. It's the fact it needs Diamond Soul to function.

Again, not asking for it to be implemented, just discussing as I'm curious.. but if someone were to request a custum feat request to have a +2 to magic resist as their drow, could they get a feat created for them through scripting that would give them the amount of Spell Resist his character usually has +2, to change the set value and emulate that +2 to spell resist?

I agree with Serb and Suney on this. And something I'm not sure you have taken in to consideration is the balance side of it (I'm not balance monkey personally, this is just obvious to me) if you could get the same SR of a Drow or other UD'ers, or even as high as what is possible for monks then I'd go as far as implying its game breaking for Amia, even with the fact it's a high power level server even without going to the highest level allowed within NwN's limits.

This is simply because to get good SR currently, well then again it's better than good but anyway, you have to invest in either race, certain caster classes or even the one class that gives a high amount of SR naturally, obviously I refer to Monk while bearing with any downfalls and disadvantages that come with your selection. But my point is if everyone had access to the highest SR a monk can get or even the highest a Drow can get then they have all the advantages of their current build plus great SR score without the downfalls of having to be a Drow with an ECL and probably even exp pens with the assumption of taking builds outside of their faved class or even investing heavily in monk. Yes you get the nice SR along with speed, but you suffer the low AB and damage for most cases aswell as not so great HP rolls, therefor the advantages and the disadvantages keep it more of a balance.

If everyone had access to this, imagine WM's in these cases, they aren't perfect builds and have counters like every build does and always will - despite this they are very powerful especially in terms of the obvious, their hefty DPS output, but it would make them that bit more powerful having access to that high an SR permenantly as far as gear goes, as opposed to if a cleric cast it on them it could be reduced to their natural of 0 in a lot of cases. Rogues/SD's would also have in my eyes a quite major boost if they had this access, if the Mage can't spot them due to lack of detection skills and they hide then they may have a hard time casting AoE spells and affecting the sneaker.

I mean, the Rogue in particular already has access to debatably the most powerful feat in the game, on top of superior AC to an STR base with the option of highering with a shield should they have the common Rogue/fighter/SD variation. So that brings me to the point of a mages summon, they're going to have a hard time hitting the sneak for the mentioned reasons any way, but obviously make a nice distraction nonetheless, this paired with a hard time to hurt the sneak with the mages arsenal of spells (excluding the ones which disregard SR) makes the Rogue unnecessarily more powerful.

I may have some of this wrong. It's not by any means the case or law, but simply how I see it, I could be blind to the reality of it, which is likely since I'm not all that knowledgeable in terms of balance.

I maybe looking at it on too much of a PvP perspective, but it does affect PvM too, 32 SR in PvM can be fairly effective in a number of places and 39+ would make you virtually immune to most hunting grounds.

Mushidoz wrote:

Again, not asking for it to be implemented, just discussing as I'm curious.. but if someone were to request a custum feat request to have a +2 to magic resist as their drow, could they get a feat created for them through scripting that would give them the amount of Spell Resist his character usually has +2, to change the set value and emulate that +2 to spell resist?

Mechnically, sure it's possible.

NWN wiki says:

Quote:

In the absence of spell penetration, Spell Resistance allows the target to resist spells from an equal-level caster 55% of the time.

Spell Resistance is awesome. That's the clerical spell I was looking at, mind. But its extremely potent, and even a smaller amount of items can save your arse in a sticky situation.

Spell Resistance is awesome. I only wish it worked on all the spells it's supposed to, but that's my only gripe.

What doesn't it work against that it should?

Lizzie wrote:

What doesn't it work against that it should?

Fire Shield

Forceful Hand

You'd think Acid Sheath would be the same way, but it's not, since it's a Conjuration spell (most Conjurations ignore Spell Resistance). It is, however, capped at 30 damage per hit, unlike here where it just wrecks you until you're a bubbling puddle.

Forceful Hand is countered fine by Spell Resistance. If this isn't happening, there's a bug somewhere.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Forceful Hand is countered fine by Spell Resistance. If this isn't happening, there's a bug somewhere.

But yoooouuuu saaaaaid...!

Nah, you're right, I think it's a bug!

Yeah as a rule acid never checks for SR. It's the go-to anti-anti-magic. Same with most (but not all) force effects!

Wait, I'm confused. It's a bug that Forceful Hand should be subject to SR on Amia, but presently isn't? Or that it is presently subject to SR but shouldn't be?

serbiris wrote:

Yeah as a rule acid never checks for SR. It's the go-to anti-anti-magic. Same with most (but not all) force effects!

I think it depends on the spell.

Mestil's Acid Breath

Acid Fog

Acid Splash

Melf's Acid Arrow

Storm of Vengeance

As far as force effects go - they're pure magic, not even a psuedo-reaction like fire, electricity or frost. Great Thunderclap gets a pass because it's an indirect explosion of air, but Magic Missile, Missile Storm, Bigby's Fine Line of Force Hands... those should be (and are for the most part), resistable.

Lizzie wrote:

Wait, I'm confused. It's a bug that Forceful Hand should be subject to SR on Amia, but presently isn't? Or that it is presently subject to SR but shouldn't be?

I don't know why, but Forceful Hand doesn't check for SR on Amia, and it should. It's not a bug, they intentionally programmed it zat vey.

Goddamn Beholders.

Oh. I forgot we removed the SR check when we changed the spell.

It ignores SR because the spell would be kind of unimpressive otherwise.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

Oh. I forgot we removed the SR check when we changed the spell.

It ignores SR because the spell would be kind of unimpressive otherwise.

That spell is the single biggest pain in my ass ever. Haha.

/the sound of dozens of casters flipping through their spellbooks to prepare it

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

That spell is the single biggest pain in my ass ever. Haha.

That's because Mathus is a terrible monk. He should take lessons from Ahsra, who flips off big green hands 9 out of 10 times. THE MASTER MUST BECOME THE STUDENT.

LetumLux wrote:

That's because Mathus is a terrible monk.

This is all that needs to be said, really

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

...is the single biggest pain in my ass ever.

That's what she said.

And say whut? Temptation to go jump on a caster of mine, hopefully one of them has Forceful so I can go grope a drow without wasting a Mord first.

And Lux .. I'll refrain from commenting on your flips off comment.

And I don't think I included it earlier in my post, but did mean too, investing in even just plain ol' Spell Penetration is a rarity for me. I have feats I often place before it and I would go as far as believing a number of others do too, not all obviously, though.

Anubis wrote:

CouncilofAutumn wrote:

...is the single biggest pain in my ass ever.

That's what she said.

Have a little class please.

Dear Cerpin,

I'll have you know I have as much class as the next person, I have fine tastes and only buy the finest in life. Lambrini alcoholic beverages for example. I even wear clothing ranges such as Donnay, Kappa, Kangol and of course Nicks.

So please, keep your opinion of how classy you think I am to yourself when you do not know the reality behind the accusation you put forward.

Your only true love,
Anubis

(Since you were so nice to say please I'll avoid it in future, but it was simply a joke and I just ask that you don't take everything I say too seriously and if it offended you or anyone else at all I apologise as it wasn't my intention

)

Don't be an ass, Francis.

I was wondering after this thread, are SR bonuses that are gained from gear also reduced by Mordenkainens disjunction?

Thoice wrote:

Don't be an ass, Francis.

Thoice wrote:

Glad to see the same usual names in every category.

Someone needeth practice what theyeth preach. :lol:

Besides, I'm a person(Egyptian Deity), not a Donkey, silly.

Spell Resistance

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