How much damage does a normal IGMS, empowered, and maximized IGMS do? I know you get 1x missile @ level.

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http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Isaac's_greater_missile_storm + maths = your friend

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Normal IGMS use, 2d6 per missile. Maximised every missile will do 12 damage each that hits a target, unless they have magic DR. Empowered I'm not sure on, but it can be higher than maximised but not always. Maximised is better (personal opinion, more than anything) because it's constant max damage and not having to wait for better damage rolls.

But that said empowered can get you far. Ever empowered chained lighting? If not I suggest you try it and you'll no doubt be pleased by some of the results it can give, especially since its a fairly powerful damage dealer with just maximised uses and even not too bad with plain use.

Take note its been nerfed so any one target can only be hit by a maximum of 10 missiles from individual castings, but the amount of missiles fired is uncapped to 30. So that's 120 damage to 3 different targets on a maximised IGMS at max level, assuming they have no DR to the damage type. Pretty nasty when facing multiple foes, but loses a little worth against more than 3.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

True Seeing is a waste unless you're a spotter. Trust me, I know.

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Sion of Nimlith
Shadow Disciple

Depends on the situation and personal preference. A few of my mages are no strangers to having darkness used against them, the first time it happened I only had see invisibility and no true seeing, even if I had Ultravision it takes time to pierce the Darkness and that particular method used on my Mage gave the opposition just enough of an advantage to beat me because I lost sight of anything not close enough to be perceived and attempted to leave the darkness while they could see right through it exactly where I was going and attack accordingly.

So I always use TS on every Mage and it put me at an advantage when others used the same Darkness tactic. The spell was nullified basicly and I could react just as I would of if it weren't cast in the first place. I never lost to someone else casting Darkness on me once after that and even though PvP was rare for me over the years I've had quite a few try the same Darkness trick on me. Sorry BG who tried to use Deeper Darkness on me and had Dev Crit which was insta kill at the time and probably would have butchered my Mage who barely had 200HP and would have been taken out in two crits likely even if I happened to roll the fort successfully if the Darkness could have affected me, but your attempts hath been weakened.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Plus, skillful players may often take a modicum of stealth skills against players who are too silly to take Spot. This includes mages without TS and Spot, as a trifling amount is already enough to be a pain in the bottom.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Lesser Spell Mantle
Each Spell Focus into Abjuration adds an additional 1 spell level absorbed, totalling up to 3 with all three foci.

Spell Mantle
Each Spell Focus into Abjuration adds an additional 1d3 points of damage absorbed, totalling up to 3d3 with all three foci.

Greater Spell Mantle
Each Spell Focus into Abjuration adds an additional 1d4 + 1 spell levels absorbed, totalling up to 3d4 +3 with all three foci.

The descriptions seem to be a little off... isn't it?


But i still need a math professor now - Which one is better to use when you have Epic spell focus; Abjuration? Is it still better to use Spell mantle or have greater spell mantle become better?
I know that if you are NOT an abjuret, it's better to take Spell mantle and Empower it. Source here

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Pretty sure Empowered Spell Mantle trumps Greater Spell Mantle with or without ESF: Abjuration because it's still Empowered. Now, I don't know if you apply the Empower before or after the ESF bonuses, lol

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Just stick with spell mantle. Whether or not one or the other becomes more potent after spell focii, you'd do better to retain the ninth level slot for something else.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

Is Shadow Evade the same as vanilla NWN, with the exception of the duration?

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Just lurking about!

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

Awesome, thank you!

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Just lurking about!

Bear in mind that means no, we haven't changed Shadow Evade's progression. Just its duration.

(We also fixed the stacking bug.)

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

For being one of the primary abilities of a shadowdancer... it kinda sucks. I mean? Sure - they have hips... but the feat is kinda lame.
Easier to use imp.invis wands - they last longer.
And stoneskin potions

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Granted I'm just getting started on my SD but as an outsider looking in, as a secondary ability (HiPS being numero uno) it doesn't look bad, especially with the duration change. You get concealment, AC, and DR all in one go. It's not dispellable and the DR doesn't have a damage limit like Stoneskin. You like keeping meticulous track of how many HP you have left on one of those things and have it run out at the wrong time?

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Tark Hammerfeast - Immovable Object
True Greenspan - Bendir's Boy Wonder

While it may not be the best feat it's not useless, even before it got improved. I'll use a certain Dexer of mine for an example - keep in mind he used a large shield (4 AC - 2 base) and had his clothing mythalled to have 5 AC, he has a 13 Dex mod at maxed stat, he sits unbuffered at 55 AC with shield equipped - Mage armour 56 - haste 60 - uses expertise on occasion, 65 - shield of faith at its highest upgrade, 66 (only having a +4 fortification cloak) and hasn't got the highest tier of AC on his amulet so if he gets that can achieve 67. All that on a none SD build.

Now let's assume a 16rogue/10SD/4fighter has the same gear as my character and with all that buffered AC of 66 (or 67 with the 5 amulet), shadow evade adds an extra 4 bringing it to 70/71, that AC paired with Epic Dodge and HIPS, I like the chances of their survival in toe-to-toe combat.

The difference between my build and the SD one, my survivability is quite a bit less, I don't have HIPS or epic dodge to fall back on and he's considerably easier to beat because of this, but he can hit in face to face combat without too much in the way of AB buffers and doesn't have to rely on flanking/sneak attacks.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Shadow Evade is awesome. Its not a PvM thing, really. But in PvP it can push you over the edge in AC.

Not every ability of a class needs to have game-changing effects for it to be viable, Svensk.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

I said that?

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You said it sucked and is a lame feat. This implies that you feel it is inadequate compared to the current balance.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

You're implying an aweful lot... Been having a bad day and need to ventilate? Pm me if you got issues with me. id apreciate it

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What.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

*Shrugs* It just seems you're flamebaiting me.

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I kind of support Svensk in this regard. While i generally like the fact that SD's got a makeover, i've yet to find a way to actually make a half-decent build with it. Not to mention it's yet another class that has its pinnacle of power unavailable for races like tieflings, drow and svirfneblin, which is just plain weird.



All three of his active feats, Evade, Daze and Shadow are marginally useless, unless with 20 SD levels. I can't find any compromise between 10/13 and 20 levels range.

Daze cooldown at more than 30 seconds (over a minute on 18 levels) is a one-per-spawn thing in pve at best, somewhat better in pvp due to the length of the engagement you can extend it to.

Evade is silly. 20% concealment is easily overlooked if you have access to Imp Invis or Displacement (available in potions). Anything less than +5/x which is on 20'th level is useless in pvp and late pve. Dodge AC is the only useful thing under 20 levels here, but 4 AC alone is hardly worth the effort of focus.

And the Shadow summon scales in strength in a way that it's obvious what the desired end goal is - 20 levels.



The problem here is, in terms of build balance, that in order to make the 3 SD active feats a strong focus of the build, you need to get 19 - 20 levels. This leaves you with 10 that are hardly able to define any supportive abilities, leaving you with a utility stealth/tracker build, that has marginal damage potential and difficulties with pve. Sure you can daze half a spawn in 5 minutes and then bring the shadow to deal with it (i highly doubt he's able to be the workhorse against Ilithids or Giants in a straightforward manner).

It probably is a good pvp build though, though if your shadow gets killed before you finish the job, all you can do is leave.


Now, i can think of only Rogue being able to bring something substantial to 19/20 SD build. This is pretty self explanatory - you grab 5d6 sneak attack, Crippling Strike and it's suddenly dangerous, right? Right.

But somehow, for a stealthy backstabber kind of SD, i would still very much prefer to keep SD at bare minimum, and instead focus on the really solid classes like Blackguard, Assassin maybe even Monk. The only real discount is essentially the lack of a nasty Shadow, the benefits however... i'll take a DC 38 Death Attack, Divine Might/Shield with saves, or extra attacks and movement speed over that Shadow any time of the day.



Long story short, SD makeover made it more attractive than before, but i can't shake off the feeling that i'm being taunted with promise of great things if i sacrifice everything to grasp them, and in the end i'll end up with a sub-par, one dimensional gameplay based on 3 abilities.



Please don't mistake this rant as me complaining, i just wanted to express my opinion on SD balance being off, compared to other Amia-specific class makeovers like stupidly powerful Assassin or Barbarian, solid and reliable Blackguard, or unique and cheap (in levels) Knight Commander.

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Mark it zero!

Hear hear! <3

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How I see it is, SD especially when paired with heavy Rogue is mostly a support class, skills, feats, AB the whole mechanics deal behind them revolve around being a side support, especially with rogue.

SD can be quite powerful pre-buff and especially pre-HIPS-nerf, HIPS probably more than doubled the survivability of anyone who knew how to use it effectively and even with the cool down, a well built SD can usually stand toe to toe just long enough to re-use HIPS, if not, then running away can still kill a bit of time if needed to, when in need of re-initiating HIPS. Like above mentioned Dexer builds can be just as powerful as strength builds and some excel further, the Rogue/fighter/SD one, while being a common and straightforward build to follow can get roughly 3 AB less than an average fighter with no WM levels, when not dual-wielding, iirc.

It makes sense (to me) that the upgraded feats get better and are best at 20ish levels. Shifter doesn't have all epic naturally earned forms until 19. WM doesn't achieve it's highest AB upgrade until 19, BG/cleric/pally (post nerf) don't get much joy out of the divines until atleast 8 - 10 levels and I personally don't go for the divines on builds that have a max modifier under 8 and even then I aim for 10, mostly and I tend to go 16 BG as a standard.

All casters get stronger, naturally with heavier investment and if you want a really effective one then most don't go any less than 20 and even then 22 - 24 are mostly used (in my experience) when not going full on caster.

Rangers are good all the way through, but they don't benefit all that much if you don't go atleast epic ranger for bane of enemies, fully upgraded blade thirst and better things vs favoured enemies (keeping in mind this is all my opinion and I'm not saying any of it is strictly correct).

I won't name every single thing in each class that requires heavy investment to be at its best, but what my point is you can't have the best of all worlds, with any build. You want the three SD feats mentioned to be at their ultimate level, then you can go max SD, if you want to not shoot yourself in the foot by going so many SD and probably limiting your damage by a lot then you can compromise and go 10 SD instead and have it at still a quite decent level of viability in the build, with 10 SD levels there's still enough room for heavier investment in other classes.

I tend to go a minimum of 10 SD, all my SD based characters are at 10 or planned to go that high, with the exception of Ael, when I had to request him the initial planned build included 6 SD, I later changed that and went more in his base class. I thought if I want SD on him then it's the full 10, but I'd lose out on 3 feats I think, lose 4d6 of damage and probably lose a couple of AB depending on when I went SD, amongst other things.

10 levels have so many perks, mechanics wise and even RP wise.

Regarding the imp invisibility thing, sneaks in general don't normally do too well to rake in gold like certain classes do, even with 100% reduction bags it may still be a struggle, especially considering by time you have money for one or two things in the highest SD shop you are quickly dropped back down below 10k, re-stocking buffers you'll probably spend no less than 20k depending on whether you have constant Mage support making saving money to pay for the magic bags a struggle. Even once you get to 30 and you don't need to upgrade your gear much, if at all, if you couldn't afford a magic bag before then it only becomes marginally easier by then, especially if you have 10 base STR.

So, there's a chance you may not be able to afford imp invis' for a long time, even after 30 - that's where even just the not so long lasting 20% concealment can be handy, better than nothing at all as a filler until you can afford the wands and other things.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

I agree that most of the SD abilities besides HiPS are fairly lame. I think the Shadow Evade and the Shadow progression should be improved a bit to be on par with other classes.

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Nope, not unless they lose HiPS. +4 stacking AC is not a small deal, either.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

It's a situational feat that calls for situational use. And it would be plain silly to expect one feat to make going "pure SD" worthwhile, though it is favourable it offered a small tweak in return, which it does. Versability and the need to weigh between your options is what makes Amia such a wonderful server; you gain more SD-like qualities out of going more SD, but there is no rule dictating that it should be equally good compared to a "smart" build. That is, even if there wasn't a feasible number of SD from 14-19 to opt for, it doesn't reduce the function of the class. It is simply too hard to manage a system that intricate, and truth be told, it's not even a thing to strive for in terms of game balance.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

at least make it turns @ level if you invest 20 bloody levels in it. Jeeesus.
its like globe of invulnerability for abjuration - turns @ level if you are a specialist (Even thought thats much easier to become)

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I don't think this is the real problem here, sort of a basis to make the rest of the class be underpowered because they have one of the best feats in the game. It is gained on 6'th level, we're talking about the other 14 that don't bring much of a bargain with the investment.

I mean, that should not even be part of the equation, because instead of 10x/20SD i can go 24Cleric/6SD and i'll have the same deals and much more. Daze i exchange for a proper spell book, Evade i exchange for Stoneskins/Barkskins/Divine Shields/Displacement/Imp Invis, and the Shadow i exchange for Death/Repose/EMDust/EDKnight/Gate summons and more.

And the argument for the maxed Epic Shadowlord being supposedly very dangerous and reward enough, i'll counter with this: Cleric23/SD6/Ranger1, Charm domain. I get any regular EMD or Dragon Knight, and Dominate Monster, Control Undead and Animal Empathy give me the ability to pick almost any creature from the mod to fight by my side.

I'll be HiPS'ing all day long and instead of poking stuff in their kidneys with sharp objects, i'll be making an entrance with Implosions, Earthquakes and Hellballs to the face, weapons melting under the strain of enchantments and a small army to bumrush my enemies. HiPS'ing spellcasters can unleash their entire spellbook on their enemies, and be as safe as never before while at it.

I could give you a bunch more examples of why 6 SD for HiPS, or even 10 SD for Epic Dodge is the end of the road, but that is rather obvious. Any class can qualify for SD and get HiPS with only 6 levels of investment, and the other 24 levels of almost any class combo will make it much more powerful than 20 SD.

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Mark it zero!

So do those builds instead. What Opustus said is rather accurate.

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"Let's unwrite these pages and replace them with our own words."

20 SD is not necessarily for people who want omg teh awesome tricks, it's for people that want to heavily RP the class. Besides, Epic Shadowlord is where it's at

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

That and I can think of five other classes that don't gain much value going more than 10 levels.

Divine Champ
Fighter
Palemaster
RDD
Dwarven Deflowerer

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

I disagree that Fighter or Palemaster don't gain much past ten. In fighter's case it is a matter of how many feats you need, so you grab as many fighter levels as is necessary. Palemaster scales beyond its class-feats with free armor, free (meager) health, DC scaling on all their touch abilities, a good bonus-feat progression, and now scaling with necromancy spells. Add all that scaling to the fact you need 15+ PM levels to have both critical hit immunity and one or more epic spells and I think it is almost necessary to take more than 10 levels on a vocational PM.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

I'm pretty sure Palemasters and dwarves would disagree.

Ninjaed, but, Defenders are worth taking to at least 14 or even 18, for extra -/3 and bonus feat on both.



Again, i'm not attacking the purist approach some people like to RP with their classes, and i dare say that a 13 level SD is virtually no different than 20 because he doesn't gain any new tools of interaction with his environment. All i'm saying is that the class itself is mechanically inferior compared to many others, which is not a balance issue in itself, but it just simply is not worth the pursuit of maximum focus and that is detrimental to the gameplay experience.

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Mark it zero!

Nah, Defenders are poop because while that scaling is pretty potent looking and on the surface seems nice, damage reduction is very weak on Amia and no substitute for a lack of AC.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

Defenders aren't poop. Who says you can't have damage reduction and decent AC? With Divine Champion you can even have some pretty nice saves. My Defender is one of the most enjoyable characters I've played.

Dwarven defender + Lots and lots of DR And NO AC WHAT SO EVER + Fireshield potion = Mass farm in frozen watstes xD


I once did a Wizard with Dwarven defender ranks, Just 6 to avoid sneaks, then Went 20 CHA and rest in Stamina to get Epic DR.
Then stacked up on lots of Premonition and mestil's acid sheet.

He was a 24Sorc/6DWD. He raped everthing.

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Yarp. Uce did the same, only better. He went all in for Gnome Wizzy 30. But I guess the 24/6 one has the advantage of being a nearly useless melee.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

I'm building a Rogue/SD/Ranger.. And I just found out, as I turned level 23.. That the last 3 ranger levels I'd picked dident really give me additional AB, above the others, pre epic

So I'm currently 11 Rogue, 7SD, 4 Rangers. I took ranger because I dualwield kukris, and decided to continue in order to get AB so I'd be able to acctualy hit something.. But after level 20 I might as well continue with the rogue levels for example, in order to get more Sneaks? I don't have wis for any spells, anyhow.

Oh, also I heard that it's possible to get a 4th attack? If you get high enough AB before level 20 I think? I only got 4 atm (+ the offhand ofc).

Probably a lot of other things I'm missing as well that I don't know about! Any kind soul out there know how to make awesome builds? Tips? :]]

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"Let the world hear these words once more: Save us O'Lord from the wrath of the Norsemen!"

Responsible for FatPeopleAreHardToKidnap & ForTheVatican

I'd delevel to the point where you last took your Ranger level and opt for the composition of Rogue4/Ranger8/SD8 or Rogue8/Ranger8/SD4 pre-epic. The attacks per round is calculated from your overall BAB pre-epic. Rogue and SD have a 3/4 BAB progression and Ranger a 4/4 so you would end up with the total of 17 BAB. 16 is the requirement for the fourth attack. Your end build should be 10/10/10. Save Ranger for last to max out Discipline, MS, Hide and other utility skills such as Spot. Oh wait, you haven't got WIS. Then just screw that and start from scratch. If you can't bother redoing it, just go Rogue15/Ranger5/SD10. Otherwise you'd be better off going Rogue17/Ranger3/SD10 for an extra 1d6 SA.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Oh.. Alright! So how much WIS would I need in order to make it any good? 17 Rogue must do a lot more sneak. And what do you get as lvl 10SD instead of just 7? ^^

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"Let the world hear these words once more: Save us O'Lord from the wrath of the Norsemen!"

Responsible for FatPeopleAreHardToKidnap & ForTheVatican

This site is your best friend. http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Ranger

For Ranger10 you need WIS 12 to access level 2 spells.

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UCE THIS, YOU COW.

Fighter I rationalize simply because I can't think of any build worth a monkeys dick that takes more than 12. The only build I can think of from an optimization standpoint is the 20 7 3 Fighter/WM/Rogue and even then it only gets two less feats than 12 16 2 and those two feats don't mean much when compared to what is effectively 2 x Epic Prowess from WM 13/16. The actual stopping point for fighter is as soon as you have Weapon Specialization/Epic thereof.

As for PM, all true, except its only valid as a caster with one class combination and that is wizard. I don't like that. To me that means the stopping point for it sits at 10 even with all the other increases it gets.

And yeah 100 percent right. Amia in pvp is a critical server, and anything with a decent AB and a scimitar will put a Dwarven Defender down in a few rounds with very little effort.

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I play: Gage le Gris
Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor

Aura of Despair.

What doesn't the -2 saving throws help with? Does that apply to knockdowns? Or just things like Fort/Ref/Will?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

It only affects fortitude, reflex, and will saving throws.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

Thought so, good.

So, random build. Fighter 8/BG 3/WM 19
Dev Crit, Epic Fort, Armor Skin, Blind Fight, Epic Weapon Spec

Saves suck, though: 20 fort/11 will/16 ref (+3 potentially from dark blessing)
300 base hp
AB is retarded: 51 from base/str mods/+4 weapon/+4 WM ab/Prowess/WF and EWF, then another +3 from Bless/Aid/Divine Power scroll for 54, might be missing other things, not sure.

Is there really any reason to go 19 WM, though?


edit: Aura of Despair = even harder to resist Dev Crit. Essentially the 39 DC goes up to 41

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Try 10 fighter, 19wm, 1bg. If you want high ab and still the bg class
Or monk/rogue or perhaps 11 fighter for epic wep spec

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Not this one: Wiz4/PM16/DD10

AC 71, AB 40 on a +5 weapon, 3 up to 6 APR, spells (True Strike, Haste, Tenser, IInvi etc) through Brew/Scribe/Craft, 2 epic spells. -/6 DR + items, HP 255 at 10 CON, PM immunities.

Just a silly thought, this thing. It wouldn't be half bad in pvp and pve, i've seen worse, but of course it won't really be any solid. Two epic spells give you some neat power boost, whichever you pick.

It is of course a hell of a weird thing to do. But all i'm trying to say is that 16 PM builds don't have to be necromancy spellcasters. With prerequisite 3 levels of arcane class it leaves you with 11 levels to still attempt something combat focused, while benefiting from +10 AC, epic spells and immunities.

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Mark it zero!