AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

After some discussion, the DM Team has decided we're going to halt a little trend that was starting to pick up: changing your names to reflect whatever city, kingdom, city, principality, municipality, village, glade or street corner you belong to. This is not the sign of a new regime or anything. We still champion a degree of your individual freedom. But that's a trend that really blurs the lines of titles and necessity and will put us inevitably into a situation of having to change peoples' names constantly, especially when you change your alignments and loyalties like you change your underwear.

Well, most of you. This is a gamer community, after all.

It is just a trend that has the potential to get very lame, so we're gonna advise all to cool it on that.

Can I get my name changed to "Weird Monk"? thx

Wierd Monk works, yes.

I'd personally like to see the players with formalities be stripped.

Not only because I like a good tease, but titles sort of makes space for meta-gamers to know something they shouldn't.

So you're a War Knight.

So you're Of Wharftown.

So you're a Lady.

I thought this was what they were sayin?

I don't feel stupid at all for asking in DM chat yesteday, if someone could remove the Weave Knights tag from my old wizzy. Nope, not even a little.

To clarify, Noble titles will remain.

Lady, Sir, etc.

What we are doing away with are the:
"of _____________" and other such things.

I always thought people asked for those so it COULD be known. For instance, Taelar asking to have "of Wiltun" appended said, to me, that he was willing to be 'metagamed' as people being able to find out without asking that he is from/of Wiltun. Like it being a common knowledge thing, something people could readily find out without even having to necessarily interact with him. (Of course, I may be implying too much!)

When the Tenek were still around, that's what our faction name tags were. Having the name " Soandso 'Tenek' " was actually an IC thing. Tribe members with the 'Tenek' faction name were decorated a certain way so that they could be identified as a Tenek at a glance, like this:

Tenek - AmiaWiki wrote:

With the spring cleaning, the Tenek has adopted a new tribal standard to reflect their allegiance to Waukeen and their separation from the ideals of the former tribe mates they have since removed from their ranks. There are a number of aesthetics that make the Tenek instantly recognizable and distinguishable from other kobolds, such as gilded mercantile uniforms adorned with coins in place of buttons, perfuming themselves in a gentle cinnamon scent, and all full-fledged Tenek tribe members paint their horns with a gold-colored dye.

// OOC Note: The faction tag 'Tenek' in a character's name is visual, IC representation of what is described above. //

I think that this used to be the case with most other factions, as well. People who labelled themselves to their faction were accepting that they could and should be recognized as such, that the information of their affiliation was public. I had just assumed that the situation was pretty much the same with characters denoting they were from somewhere, be a House or a Place; like Sam of Caraigh, Robert of Caris.

I thought this was a neat convention, honestly, given that we're saddled with stupid always-displayed-can't-be-readily-disguised names anyway, we may as well be able to utilize them in other ways.

I think we should all just have random, indistinguishable digits for names and logins.

Bini wrote:

I think we should all just have random, indistinguishable digits for names and logins.

+1

LetumLux wrote:

I had just assumed that the situation was pretty much the same with characters denoting they were from somewhere, be a House or a Place; like Sam of Caraigh, Robert of Caris.

I always took "Sam of Caraigh" as a literal name.

Kind of in the same manner arabic names commonly use the "al-" prefix in the second part of their names. In game I can use my tugian as an example.

Talaat al-Karoog which more or less means "Talaat, that guy from a place called Karoog"

(which, yes, I screwed up and used arabic naming instead of mongolian naming... murder me later)

Letum is right, folks. If anyone ever "metagame" you as a War Knight or whatever because of the factional title you choose to have in your name, it is not going to be declared metagaming. Those titles mean that anyone can recognize you as belonging to that agency.

If you don't want to be publicly recognized as belonging to that agency, don't have the title in your name.

What about the other end of the spectrum? Can my guild dock enforcer just be known as "Human Dock Worker"? If it's not metagamming to call out that War knight even when he's not wearing red and has no badges showing, it should be just as acceptable to have an appropriate name to thwart that sort of thing entirely.

Not really, no. The whole point of us relinquishing our metagaming protection of those people with those silly ~Titles~ in their names is as an incentive not to do it in the first place. The rest of you are perfectly fine as you are and are welcome to have some of this cake.

Sir Ulrik Valis of Nobility, ArchMage of Noble Harpers, Duke-Lover, Hurst-Hater

Dunno if I approve or disapprove. Naming conventions are already too strict and inappropriate. The problem is, people really name themselves after locations in the setting. Regular people don't have surnames in our premodern setting, so they're named after the farm, house, street, village etc. where they're from, if not their parents or some personal attribute they have. Layla of Lumorier is called that to distinguish her from Layla Linda's Daughter, in West Cordor, and Limping Layla from South Cordor..

However, I suspect people are/were using these inappropriately. Being called Pete of Cordor would be stupid, because there are dozens of Petes in Cordor. Moreover, you don't change your name when you move: on the contrary, it's more appropriate to be known as Simon the Amian when you're far from Amia, where you'd rather be known by your father's name/farm. If you look at medieval crusade or pilgrimage reports, for example, you'll see participants identified very loosely by where they're from. They obviously wouldn't be called that in their local setting where everyone is from that same place.

But seriously, people. Stop using surnames on your commoner PCs.

Edit: And yeah, I agree with Yossarin and Letum: the stuff floating above your head is public knowledge. That also applies to first names under regular circumstances: if as a rule you don't use your PC's given name, don't slap it on her head. (Of course, sometimes you will have to take the risk of going by false identity.) When Joon's name says "of the Binder" if means you're fully entitled to deduce he serves Oghma. It's apparent in his dress, his holy symbol, the phrases he uses, and probably by now his reputation. It does not say Joon the Cormyte let alone his family name because 1) joining the clergy meant giving priority to this new allegiance and family over the old one and 2) because he apparently thinks he's on the run and concealing his identity (however realistic or genuine that belief may be).

And yes, I understand the practical reason for not changing people's names every week. I'm posting all this to remind readers that naming isn't as simple and straightforward as one might think, but you should be able to find a fitting name that serves you longer than your underwear or address. Whatever the form of that name.

Pretty much every character described in every FR source ever written has both a given name and a family name, thereby demonstrating inarguably that family names are a routine and default practice in the FR, regardless of any arguments you might make about earth history.

Further, the assumption that the FR is an analogue to medieval earth is faulty. It's not. It's a mishmash of whatever era, culture, and tech level was scrounged by hundreds of writers over thirty years. Family names were used in the UK countries from at least the Elizabethan era, if not before ("William Shakespeare" was a commoner, "Isaac Newton" was a commoner) and it's perfectly valid to think of the FR as Elizabethan-age.

And that's only considering humans. Elves and dwarves can be positively obsessed with their lineage; the idea that they shouldn't have family names is just silly.

TL;DR: Give your character a setting-appropriate family name if you want. There's no sensible reason not to.

Lizzie wrote:

Pretty much every character described in every FR source ever written has both a given name and a family name, thereby demonstrating inarguably that family names are a routine and default practice in the FR, regardless of any arguments you might make about earth history.

Sure. I am exaggerating to fight a trend, of course. There are family names in the Realms, but they're grossly over-represented on Amia. Not everyone should have a last name, and certainly not an abstract one that doesn't directly relate to themselves or their immediate family history. You should attribute the prevalence of NPC surnames to the fact that individual authors just aren't very educated. The actual chapters written about naming conventions tell a somewhat different story. You'll also note few of Ed's NPCs have random last names. Khelben Arunsun is actually Arun's son, of the elven house Maerdrym. A Lord of Waterdeep is known just as Mirt the Moneylender. Another Lord (the guy who ran the Inn in HotU) is just Durnan, sometimes known as "the Wanderer." The Open Lord is Piergeiron Paladinson. Mirt's girl is Asper. And so on. Even the high and mighty of Waterdeep don't necessarily use the kind of abstract last names we're used to. Concerning elves and dwarves, you're mostly right. But then there are names like Fox-at-Twilight, the favored of Erevan Ilesere.

My point is that constructs like "Atli's Son" or "from the Riverbank" would be at least as common (among some social clases, speaking strictly of humans) as inherited, meaningless family names. To pay special scrutiny to one and embrace the other without a second thought is the problem.

(Looking at NPC lists on Candlekeep, it seems about half of them have no last name at all. Of course, some of them may just be a matter of the author not bothering to specify one for the purposes of the original publication, but the reverse is also true: many of the last names were just thrown there without thinking or consulting lore and sociological-historical arguments, because it feels so natural. An additional problem that skews the results one way or the other is that a selection of named NPCs isn't representative of the entire population.)

IronAngel wrote:

But seriously, people. Stop using surnames on your commoner PCs.

...

And yes, I understand the practical reason for not changing people's names every week. I'm posting all this to remind readers that naming isn't as simple and straightforward as one might think, but you should be able to find a fitting name that serves you longer than your underwear or address. Whatever the form of that name.

Surnames and the policies behind them have changed greatly over the years. If you want to go historically speaking surnames have been around since the mid-29th century BC (Emperor Fu Xi in China tried to standardize naming into a two name paradigm for census purposes) and Ireland has records of commonly using them as early as the 5th century.

There is a lot of regional variance regarding them, but they've historicly popped up first in high population density areas, which to be fair, would mostly be larger cities in the setting. That said literature is inconsistent with this in the Forgotten Realms.

As far as Forgotten Realms canon goes there are also classical examples of nobles without surnames (Sir Becket, prospective Lord of Cyan) half Orc barbarians with surnames (Xanos Messarmos), farmers (Godfroy Cormas), and even slaves (Aarin Gend.) We've even got our own Cordorian example of a commoner (now maybe nobility) with a surname in reporter William "Bill" Hurst.

There are no restrictions based on what I've read from the settings that seems to apply to who should and should not have a surname or what sort of surname that should be. There are examples of profession related (Dorna Trapspringer), locale related (Aribeth de Tylmarande?*), bloodline related (most barbarians and almost every dwarf ever), and just plain random surnames (the aforementioned Messarmos.) It also seems that in the forgotten realms settings surnames are changed to reflect changes in one's status (Vengaul Bloodsail who took the surname on taking over the Bloodsail pirates).

In short, canon and lore (Amia specific and otherwise) tells us names are more or less what you make of it.

Note: All names other than Emperor Fu Xi and Bill Hurst are taken straight from Neverwinter Nights
* the 'de' indicator goes back and forth between 'of' and 'the' in Realms naming so I could be very mistaken on this one

References for those who have a love of cross checking posts:
List of Neverwinter Nights Characters
Wikipedia: Family Names - History
Bill Hurst's oldest mention on the forums

Yes, we already established the diversity of the situation. Here, however, is the canon word specifically concerning human naming from the Revised Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting:

Quote:

Common Humanity: The greater bulk of humanity takes a
single name, such as Doust or Moumgrym, with a secondary name
added if there is confusion, either from profession (Doust the
Fighter), location (Doust of Shadowdale), or lineage (the latter in
particular if some legendary figure was in family line, such as
Doust, Grandson of Miniber the Sage). In addition, a name may
be added for a physical condition, such as Blackmane or
Firehair, or for some legendary or extraordinary event. (There
are a large number of Trollkillers in the Realms, more a credit
to the numbers of the monsters, rather than the prowess of their
slayers.) Young children are given a pet name or diminutive that
is sometimes retained, but more often than not dropped upon
adulthood (Mourngrym and Shaerls son is named Scotti, but that
may change when he reaches his majority). A wedded couple
sometimes takes a common name, which may be his or hers (particularly
when dealing with nobility) or be a new name entirely.
In the course of a lifetime, average humans can take and discard
several surnames, keeping their given names throughout.

Human Nobles and Gentry: Noble and landed individuals tend
to retain the family name, a name usually derived from the individual
who established the familys fame, position, or prowess. Such names are
retained even after the nobility has fallen from grace or power. Again,
special additional names for events or appearances are common.

Human Wizards: Mages tend to eschew long titles and names,
and the general feeling is that a wizards fame should precede him
or her, such that a single mention of the name is sufficient, and no
one would doubt the speaker was referring to anyone else but the
genuine article. For example, there may well be an Elminster the
Barber or an Elminster of Waterdeep, but a reference to Elminster
(or the even more modest Elminster the Sage) refers to the advisor
without peer who resides in Shadowdale.

Human Priests: Identifications of the faiths of the realms are
usually included in a name, supplanting any family or noble names.
Amaster, a cleric of Tymora, can be referred to as Amaster of
Tymora without incident. In higher church circles and matters
involving leaders of particular temples or faiths, the full title is
important, such as Asgaroth of Tempus, Patriarch of Baldurs Gate.

That's the general rule of thumb.

TormakSaber wrote:

Sir Ulrik Valis of Nobility, ArchMage of Noble Harpers, Duke-Lover, Hurst-Hater

You forgot Lord of the Stache

LetumLux wrote:

I always thought people asked for those so it COULD be known. For instance, Taelar asking to have "of Wiltun" appended said, to me, that he was willing to be 'metagamed' as people being able to find out without asking that he is from/of Wiltun. Like it being a common knowledge thing, something people could readily find out without even having to necessarily interact with him. (Of course, I may be implying too much!)

When the Tenek were still around, that's what our faction name tags were. Having the name " Soandso 'Tenek' " was actually an IC thing. Tribe members with the 'Tenek' faction name were decorated a certain way so that they could be identified as a Tenek at a glance, like this:

Tenek - AmiaWiki wrote:

With the spring cleaning, the Tenek has adopted a new tribal standard to reflect their allegiance to Waukeen and their separation from the ideals of the former tribe mates they have since removed from their ranks. There are a number of aesthetics that make the Tenek instantly recognizable and distinguishable from other kobolds, such as gilded mercantile uniforms adorned with coins in place of buttons, perfuming themselves in a gentle cinnamon scent, and all full-fledged Tenek tribe members paint their horns with a gold-colored dye.

// OOC Note: The faction tag 'Tenek' in a character's name is visual, IC representation of what is described above. //

I think that this used to be the case with most other factions, as well. People who labelled themselves to their faction were accepting that they could and should be recognized as such, that the information of their affiliation was public. I had just assumed that the situation was pretty much the same with characters denoting they were from somewhere, be a House or a Place; like Sam of Caraigh, Robert of Caris.

I thought this was a neat convention, honestly, given that we're saddled with stupid always-displayed-can't-be-readily-disguised names anyway, we may as well be able to utilize them in other ways.

To the first part, pretty much got spot on what I wanted, better than I can say it.

Also to the people commenting about Sam, I'm pretty sure she used to have a full name and a title denoting a faction for a while, Samantha Lockheart ~Mystic Blade~ or some such. Not sure how she suddenly just became Sam of Caraigh.

That said, I think for people that have earned titles or belong to organizations, particularly high profile ones like the War Knights, should have their titles attaced. I'm pretty sure its fairly common knowledge that Taelar works for Wiltun, for instance, between his reputation (bad or otherwise) and the fact he almost always wears the uniform of Wiltun, it makes sense. Likewise, Malatril is pretty widely known to be leader of the War Knights, so it kinda makes sense to have War Knight in his name.

Who said those were even being removed?

I can't wait to name my character "of Kohlingen".

So is my name change approved? DMIG?

Yossarin wrote:

Who said those were even being removed?

If you aren't going to let new people add the "Of such and such hole in the ground", it doesn't seem fair to me that people should be allowed to keep such on their characters names either.

And no, I'm not a huge fan of the grandfather clause concept.

Yossarin was referring to the tags, such as ~War Knight~. These are staying.

Ah okyday.

Tenek - AmiaWiki wrote:

With the spring cleaning, the Tenek has adopted a new tribal standard to reflect their allegiance to Waukeen and their separation from the ideals of the former tribe mates they have since removed from their ranks. There are a number of aesthetics that make the Tenek instantly recognizable and distinguishable from other kobolds, such as gilded mercantile uniforms adorned with coins in place of buttons, perfuming themselves in a gentle cinnamon scent, and all full-fledged Tenek tribe members paint their horns with a gold-colored dye.

// OOC Note: The faction tag 'Tenek' in a character's name is visual, IC representation of what is described above. //

Why not just put that in your bio? Doesn't it make more sense to have an IC description of each invidivual character that shares characteristics rather than 'OOC: you can tell (s)he's in xyz faction'? That way you notice on an OOC and IC level the telltale signs of a certain faction's membership, and allows for faction members to quickly rid themselves of metagameable info whether by changing clothes or modifying their bio or whatever. I don't really have an opinion on this either way, save for a general feeling that punctuation looks horridly out of place in floaty character names.

I believe he was referring to having the faction in the name, similar to how Drow houses have d'Myafin or Tinnerai in their names rather than a faction tag.

I can appreciate the value of the OOC floaty faction tags. I like to consider a RL analogy: say you’re going about your day, sitting in a Starbucks or a Burger King or whatever, and a cop walks in. Badge, belt full of gizmos and gadgets, little radio clipped to his shoulder that squawks out a burst of police report every once in a while. And a gun, a big ‘ole gun clipped to his side that you know the cop will shoot someone with if he has to.

You aren’t going to think of that cop as anything but a cop, at least not right away. With the uniform and the badge and the gun and the whole deal, that person isn’t immediately a person in your mind: he’s an agent of a faction. You might get to know him after a while, and start to think of him as Bob the Cop, who likes classic rock and has twin daughters and plays racquetball. But your initial reaction to someone like that isn’t going to be a reaction to the person. It’s going to be a reaction to the faction he represents. Maybe you’re a straight arrow and have a positive reaction to cops, maybe you’re a crook and get wary and suspicious. But you’re inevitably reacting to the presence of a cop, not to the presence of Bob.

The same thing would apply to a surgeon in scrubs and a lab coat, or a Marine in dress blues, or a Catholic bishop in full raiment, or whatever. Everyone’s reaction upon meeting one of those people is going to be entirely different, but everyone will see them as an agent of a faction first, and an individual person second.

That’s the reaction that people with a faction tag are looking for. We, as NWN players sitting in front of computers on planet Earth, don’t have much instinctive gut reaction to a clump of person-shaped pixels in a Triadic Knight or War Knight uniform, not like someone actually existing in the Forgotten Realms would. But our characters absolutely would. The faction tag is the best available substitute for that IC experience. A uniform is an icon, it’s a powerful statement, and someone wearing a uniform generally *wants* to be reacted to like they’re someone in uniform. Whatever gut reaction your character would have to someone in uniform, the people wearing that uniform *want* you to have that gut reaction; they want you to react to them, at least initially, not as an individual but as an agent of a faction.

That gut reaction is what the faction tag represents. It’s not metagaming at all. It’s a declaration of information that’s freely available IC, that your character should have an IC reaction to.

I am wondering how the tag might correlate to or different from, the Epic Reputation feat.

Epic Reputation is entirely beneficial. Being known as a [Insert Faction Member Here] is not always beneficial.

Epic Rep is indicative of a character's unique and individual awesomeness, their own personal accomplishments and acheivements. A faction tag is an entirely generic descriptor; it doesn't say anything about you personally except that you're a member of a faction.

A faction tag is a guy in a Green Bay Packers uniform. Epic Reputation is Aaron Rodgers.

Lizzie wrote:

Epic Reputation is Aaron Rodgers.

Who

_________________ *Inactive as of November 28, 2013*

Guardian wrote:

Lizzie wrote:

Epic Reputation is Aaron Rodgers.

Who

If you guys are trying to be edgy, you've failed. If you're trying to pithily demonstrate the reason why the Epic Reputation feat should never actually be taken, then, success.

I think they're being European, the unforgivable jerks.

O, right.

In that case sub out Packers / Rodgers for... something something soccer something.

How many DCs for a bottled herald that announces all of my titles for me?

My characters name:
Artorius Godstrike of the Loyal Fury. Thats his name and he earned it.

The Loyal Fury is another name for Torm...not a faction or anything.
My toon wont be caught dead without his symbol of Torm not showing replesendently on his clothing. He showers with his amulet of Torm, he goes to bed with Tormtar colored blankies ..he has sex with the tattoo of Torm on his chest (yes ..i know what a turn on)
Whoever would come across him would not be able to mistake him for anything other then a Tormtar. Disguises are not chivalrous for a paladin to have! Meta awaaaay.
Strip him down to his undies and he'd have Tormtar colored underwear....Tear open that tatoo symbol on his chest where his heart would be and it would beat and sound just like Torm..Torm..Torm..

Lizzie wrote:

O, right.

In that case sub out Packers / Rodgers for... something something soccer something.

its called football, and some of us do follow american soccer 8P

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Lizzie wrote:

O, right.

In that case sub out Packers / Rodgers for... something something soccer something.

its called football, and some of us do follow american soccer 8P

It's called handegg-adbreak over here.

Underdark races are probably a good case to use here. I don't need to stick 'Drow' in my name because it's pretty obvious from my physical appearance what I'm playing as, unless I've otherwise stated that no easily recognisable marks are visible, but people will still see you as 'that evil spider-kisser elf' first rather than 'Jeff of House Jefferson, who likes to torture svirfneblins and throw them off the top of L'Obsul for kicks.' Either way the reaction would probably be the same, but you can see what I'm getting at.

666WaysToHell wrote:

I believe he was referring to having the faction in the name, similar to how Drow houses have d'Myafin or Tinnerai in their names rather than a faction tag.

In that example, having the faction tag in the name represented physical changes that people who didn't read the wiki presumably wouldn't know about unless something about it was put in the bio too, which would kind of invalidate the need for a tag in the name. A Tinnerai Drow out of House colours/clothing could be anybody.

I get a pretty strong reaction around Kohlingen without needing anything in my name, it seems >_>

I do agree with Liz's cop analogy, though. Very good way of phrasing it.

EDIT: Also, I'm American and have no idea who Aaron Rodgers is.

Quit yer babbling and everybody strip.

Uniqueness is antiproportional to the number of people trying to be unique.

... you resurrected a two-weeks-dead topic to tell us to stop posting in the topic? Or... am I missing something here?

Lizzie wrote:

... you resurrected a two-weeks-dead topic to tell us to stop posting in the topic? Or... am I missing something here?

Yeah Lizzie! Quite yer babbling!! :lol:

Oops, didn't even look at the last post date. It was still on the first page. :/

Your input is always welcome on my threads, xordae!

Oh baby~ Here goes serious opinion then.

You guys got a pretty good grasp on the issue. I imagine the DM team is jaded enough when it comes to players wanting floaty name priviledges.

Personally, I'd be even more of an idealist / hard-ass about it. All affiliation and all titles to be communicated through interaction between PCs, IC description and inspection alone. Nametag strictly reserved for names.

I see everything else that shows up in the name field, at best, as a crutch to help spread knowledge that "should be known", but for which no PCs or NPCs could actually be found spreading it. Or maybe they would spread it, but now they don't have to. Opportunity lost there. And at worst, a thing of vanity. Does the limitation that a MMORPG puts on social interaction - compared to the real world - justify crutches? Maybe in some cases, but this is not a game-breaker. No one will be dreadfully hurt by being a hard-ass about this. Go all the way!

Your Floating Name is Not Your Herald

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