AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Oh dear, this topic again. I see raise dead scrolls are still in the game.

The topic you wanted is locked, but my comment still holds true for whta you said!

Towns and cities on B are doomed. Not enough active population on b to breathe life into them. B doesn't have the plot centers to warrant activity either. Take brog as the perfect example it saw play during a plot but now where is it?

And your offered solution might be...?

TormakSaber wrote:

And your offered solution might be...?

Move cities to A or make something important like was done with brog

Well, le'ts assume cities are staying where they are. How would you 'make things important'?

Brogdenstein is a stellar example of making a city important. It just lacked longevity. In shory I am saying a DM plot woukd miraculously make places "important". Out of the way locations are also wonderful for brooding amd nefarious pc plots

Triumvir and Tarkuul could be moved to B non-disruptively. They're only acessible by magical portal anyway.

Triumvir sure. I disagree with Tarkuul. It's proximity to Amia Island itself means it's commonly affected by events that happen there,and thus things like DM shouts need to be seen simultaneously.

How about Underport?

TormakSaber wrote:

Triumvir sure. I disagree with Tarkuul. It's proximity to Amia Island itself means it's commonly affected by events that happen there,and thus things like DM shouts need to be seen simultaneously.

I thought Tarkuul buggered off halfway around the globe lately anyway?

Lizzie wrote:

How about Underport?

If you're suggesting this I can only assume you don't actually know where Underport is.

I know where Underport is. I also know it's fairly isloated, physically and cuturally, from the rest of the island.

It's not remotely isolated, no. I don't know how much I can say without it being spoilery.

Edit: As for it being "culturally isolated", well. Depends on your definition. Edonil and L'Obsul are culturally isolated in that surfacers walking around there are lucky if they're not killed. But Underport is fairly open and very frequently has surfacer PCs operating out of there (more frequently than UDer PCs, even - at least in regards to plot stuff).

No, it's "somewhat" isolated. Not like Ft Wiltun is isolated, no. But going from Uhm to Underport isn't like going from Cordor to the Dale. It's a different world, full of wholly different categories of creatures and cultures. Everything about it looks and feels different than the surface world, meaning transitioning servers when entering it wouldn't be as jarring as transitioning servers when moving from something like, say, the Dale to Guldorand.

I agree that there are strong cases for leaving it where it is, sure. But yesterday I saw the server populations stand at about 55 and about 8 for most of the night. If that's a problem to be solved, tradeoffs will have to be made, I think.

No, not even "somewhat". It's in walking distance of the Quagmires, like a couple transitions. Sure I guess you can say that it's actually a really long climb but even then it's just a straight little climb. Hell you can get straight to Kohlingen (sorta) and even Cordor (well, before). It seems to indicate that there isn't even a great distance. It's highly connected. Also it's Upperdark, which is very "Underdark-lite". It's not as alien as people think.

I don't see how adding more isolated areas to B will help populate B so much as depopulating A - which isn't really that important IMO. The people who hang out in Underport will continue NOT to interact with the people in Wiltun or Brog. Surgically transplanting a crossroads-point from A (leaving a gaping hole of I-dont-wanna-go-there-switching-servers-is-annoying) won't help.

We're working with two different definitions of "isolated" here. I'm not arguing that the distance is large, I'm arguing that the distance is irrelevant. Isolation is determined by other factors than proximity, in a world where weeks-long boat journeys take two seconds, and every PC starts play with the ability to teleport.

serbiris wrote:

I don't see how adding more isolated areas to B will help populate B so much as depopulating A - which isn't really that important IMO. The people who hang out in Underport will continue NOT to interact with the people in Wiltun or Brog. Surgically transplanting a crossroads-point from A (leaving a gaping hole of I-dont-wanna-go-there-switching-servers-is-annoying) won't help.

This is still very much a valid point. It's pretty much how I see it as well.

Even still, there's the practical consideration of a crossroads-type location leading you across servers before it leads you to your destination. See: Uhm to Udos Dro'xun, or anywhere to Mercenary Camp. Crossing servers has thus far only been handled with long boat rides and portals. You've never been able to walk from A to B through simple transitions across land. Adding Underport to B would change this.

That aside - culture is heavily influenced by the playerbase. The fact that Underport is so open to surface business (only place tiefers can get a good deal after all) removes the alienation factor significantly.

Moving our settlements doesn't change the fact that we still have the same number of them as we do now, which is a surplus.

I thought it might be a good idea to merge Kjedt and Nes'ek into one settlement, a little larger in size, but more consolidated. Even though Nes'ek is like Epcot, and Kjedt is actually Egypt. There should be more tension in that area. Close range.

That would be a forward move in my opinion. The same can be said for Endir's Point and its cute resorts.

I know it might seem a bit out of ordinance to create a Frozenfar bastard child city, and a Khem bastard child city, and there is plenty of reason for those things not to happen ICly, but that is sort of what I think would help the problem of the geographic golf course. Maybe I'll just say the bad word, Downsize.

slkNihilus wrote:

serbiris wrote:

I don't see how adding more isolated areas to B will help populate B so much as depopulating A - which isn't really that important IMO. The people who hang out in Underport will continue NOT to interact with the people in Wiltun or Brog. Surgically transplanting a crossroads-point from A (leaving a gaping hole of I-dont-wanna-go-there-switching-servers-is-annoying) won't help.

This is still very much a valid point. It's pretty much how I see it as well.

All true, but it's basically the same thing as saying that the problem either isn't solvable, or isn't really a problem at all. Locations on B aren't ever going to have the same intuitive connection to each other as locations that share a landmass do.

And, I think I agree with Sunkin about the downsizing. I'm struggling to think of a reason I would care if, say, Frozenfar suddenly just fell off of the server one day.

B was designed to "seem big", it pretty much says it on the tin. Which is great. It just happens to have drawbacks, especially with playerbase behaviour. I'm not sure if there's really a point to making B more like A, because sometimes it's nice to have the room, and the isolated settlements and all that. It just also yields to the problem of a lopsided playerbase and ICly busy areas constantly seeming empty (though mind you, -most- areas seem near-empty to me these days, even when the server's nearly full).

I guess one solution would be to yeah downsize a few settlements with choice natural disasters - but not too many, and not on the scale of "retcon huge sections of land". What you should definitely do is give people a reason to go to each individual place. Some sort of uniqueness. Didn't Forstakkr used to have this neat tax-evasion thing going on with the ACTF? That was something. So yeah, content. Creative content. Easier said than done I know, but it would probably help.

Wide open spaces, boo. I don't believe characters should have their own continent. You can always have your happy place in simpler terms.

Not to sound old now, but back before B-mia, Mynna's gang of friends (Chi, Zeri, Alanna, Vy, Torin) would all go and sit under the same tree, which belongs to none of them ironically but to a woman named Eva. Whatever.

But this tree was just off the road a bit. It was not in the middle of nowhere, and they could have all the privacy they could need, because it was unmistakably their 'spot'. Of course then plot got in the way and now they all hate each other, but that's the point, you want to get to those stringent ties, that mounted tension. Now, who is going to shout blue murder when you killed your woman fifteen miles away on a desolate island that no one else would know to visit but you and her? Who is going to care about your story? No one because it will go untold.

To come full circle, hee hee,
this is another reason a utilitarian prison would do good for the island. Instead of banning a goon for lifting an antique store, instead of banning him from the city and sending him off to some place he can hide and never be found, he goes to the Big House. This place is going to fill up real nice. And if they all break out at once? Oops! Time to hide.

EDIT: I say Mynna's gang, but it was truly Vy's. He was the leader sort of. Vy was their John Travolta. (If John Travolta was pale, OCD, and perpetually nervous.)

For the record there is a ton of tension between Djedet and Nesek :p

There is a lot that happens that isn't posted on the forums for those not present to see. In cordor, kohl, etc. Nobody has a clear picture what is going on in the entirety of the gameworld. Just cause you don't see it or read about it, its not hapening. I have no clue what my neighbors do next door unless they post it on facebook.

Some folks like privacy. Some actions require them. Some factions operate only secret. Some good guys need it too.

Also... Lore breaking to have a prison shared. I'm sure most places won't share one. Complete silly to have cities at war with each other having the same prison...

Really this is one of the worst concepts and its even sort of being discussed makes me feel bad about the future.

GreatPigeon wrote:

Also... Lore breaking to have a prison shared. I'm sure most places won't share one. Complete silly to have cities at war with each other having the same prison...

Really this is one of the worst concepts and its even sort of being discussed makes me feel bad about the future.

SEND THEM TO AUSTRALIA!!!

corypx wrote:

GreatPigeon wrote:

Also... Lore breaking to have a prison shared. I'm sure most places won't share one. Complete silly to have cities at war with each other having the same prison...

Really this is one of the worst concepts and its even sort of being discussed makes me feel bad about the future.

SEND THEM TO AUSTRALIA!!!

Terrible idea, they'd love it. Summer's just ending here, so it's hot enough to go out and swim while it's still cold enough that you don't ignite instantly the moment you see sunlight. Plus, the dropbears seem to have (Mostly) gone to the coast, so chance of death is minimal.

We'll throw some shrimp on the barby for them!

And they can have as much as they want... what kind of Aussie eats "shrimp" anyway? I'll stick with the King Prawns thanks.

Sunkin, you got a point about redundant towns like Forrstakkr. They may have been made with great care and everything, but at some point it's just spreading it too thin. Way back when, Lumorier was removed for the same reason. Hardly anyone went there. Maybe it's time to look at the scissors again.

Although this is mainly about the plain towns, not the themed ones for good/evil/dead/Elf/whatever. I feel like removing one of those would sever too much history, it'd be a shock.

Condensing towns and cities down to just what's needed and giving the server more wilderness would be a move to consider IMO. Nuke Forrstakkr, Uhm, Guldorand, Chillwyck, etc.

Such is already in consideration, and indeed is already in the works for some places. It takes time however, since "Ao accidentally steps on Chillwyck" doesn't exactly jive.

I don't think the number of settlements is too great; I think there is a lack of diversity between them.

Uhm, Wharftown, Howness, Endir's Point, et al; they all strike me as very copy-paste. Yes, they have their own little things to do, their slightly different accents, their slightly different faiths, their slightly different trade focus... but they seem like they are by and large all the same adventurer-hating rural hicks, with a couple of distinct NPCs. I think if they are going to be changed, it shouldn't be to remove them, and instead it should be to up their Saturation, as it were.

Take Endir's Point, for example. It has a strong Shaundakulite presence, yes? So turn up the volume on that. Make Endir's Point out to be a lot more exploratory and helpfu. Maybe them more accepting of adventurers in their NPC attitudes. Give them a new adventuring-minded store, because I'm sure they've been pulling in enough money from everyone raiding their Metal Merchant and funneling gold into the city through the trade skills. Repaint the flavors of the ethos of that apparently primary faith:

Spread the teachings of the Helping Hand by example. Work to promote him among traders, especially trailblazers who seek out new lands and new opportunities. Unearth and re-sanctify ancient shrines of Shaundakul. Ride the wind, and let it take you wherever it blows. Aid those in need, and trust in the Helping Hand. Seek out the riches of the earth and sea. Journey to distant horizons. Be the first to see the rising sun, the mountain peaks, the lush valleys. Let your footsteps fall where none have tread.

I will absolutely hate it if the "peripheral" settlements get pruned because while they're a bit bland at the moment, they also represent the increasingly shrinking non-insular places to go live and hang out. Other places are so racially/morally/religiously insular that even people who might be on the list of being allowed to go there don't want to - and that's not a bad thing so long as there are options of other places to go.

It doesn't matter if there are several "unnecessary" settlements. They are part of the scenery you pass through on your adventure, and they don't have to spread the player base too thin. Nobody lives in Forstakkr anyway, it's a location of adventure. It's a matter of services: if a few of the largest cities have a monopoly on all the important services adventurers need daily, they wil congregate around them. It should be possible to live in Endir's Point or Uhm, but it shouldn't be possible to sell your gear for 20k a piece or buy Heal potions (and it probably isn't, I haven't been there in a while).

The setting would lose immersion and authenticity if you just removed small settlements in favor of endless wilderness. It also means losing important pieces on the political game board. The real problem, if it is one, of spreading players too thin is with the major settlements. Wharftown doesn't draw an exclusive playerbase large enough to have an impact, but when you have Wiltun, Kohlingen and Cordor all advertised as equal, relatively neutral human settlements and Tarkuul, Winya and Barak Runedar (plus the Grove) having a guaranteed appeal to certain character types, you're in trouble.

I'm not saying they should be removed. Well, they should, in my opinion, but that's because I dream of a centralized and compact master narrative. I'm saying that they're the real problem and you can't compensate with stepping on some smaller settlements. As long as you have six major powers competing for players on a server with 50-100 players online and 30% of them out hunting, no amount of pruning smaller villages can solve the numerical issue.

IronAngel wrote:

Wiltun, Kohlingen and Cordor all advertised as equal, relatively neutral human settlements

Not in the slightest anymore, really. Cordor, maybe.

Kohlingen...? Not at all.

I suppose you could consider Wiltun that so long as you don't know anything about it at all.

The irony is that Tarkuul is the most open of the bunch

Hah. Tarkuul has an alignment restriction that bars more characters than the other three combined. When a good-aligned character can step on that portal and visit Tarkuul, then you can talk openness.

They can, actually. Portal's been unrestricted.

LetumLux wrote:

Cordor, maybe.

Kohlingen...? Not at all.

I suppose you could consider Wiltun that so long as you don't know anything about it at all.

That only applies to the few politically active PCs, though. The typical adventurer minding his own business can easily find a home in any of them without an oppressive need to subscribe to an ideology. And those are the demographic where new characters are recruited from, brainwashed and shaped to your party's interests. They are the bulk of people walking around sparking RP. If you aspire to influence, of course, you'll have to be more selective.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

They can, actually. Portal's been unrestricted.

Seriously? Well... that's pretty great, then. I was always curious how Tarkuul justified that, since it seemed explicitly contradictory to their own laws.

s'why it was changed

Of course the hubs split the playerbase, but they're also really iffy to remove. They provide plenty of flavor, they have their roots in established history and continue to effect the world one way or the other. The small towns are just sort of there. Some of them have flavor, like the Gnomish testing range, if that counts. Most of them don't. And if you do make them stand out more and cater to someone, then they -will- end up attracting more people. Which is the opposite of healthy when your goal is to tighten the net.

This thread has gone terribly off topic. Basically; PC interest leads to settlement activity which leads to DM interest. For the most part. Over a year ago the dwarves were labouring in a fetid pool of stagnation so I opted to take it under my wing and give them stuff to do, I didn't make it easy, but they came out on the other side. They've been quite active for over a year now and, in the last three months, they drew a hoard of players that wouldn't normally have any reason to come along. These players didn't just come for the final battle (but some did, which is fine!), most of them sat around the port for hours on end doing nothing - without any DM oversight. Now the plot is essentially over (but there's plenty of stuff to busy themselves with) yet the dwarves remain active, scheming, mining, mingling and throwing their political weight around.

If you think a town lacks a purpose roll up your sleeves and give it one.

Hard Time

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