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IronAngel wrote:

(Disclaimer: the following should probably be in General Discussion)

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Is there an ETA for the general guidelines? And will they be posted in the UD forum, all stickied?

Did someone promise general guidelines? I hope not.

OOC rules governing IC behaviour were the worst thing about old Drow RP and they're probably what caused so much strife in the community. I don't quite know why they came to be, but they just developed over the years. And don't get me wrong: I was totally on board myself. But in retrospect, I don't know what we were thinking. Why should a role-playing server make OOC rules and "guidelines" about how our PCs should behave IC? If you want a specific world order, enforce it IC.

No other group on the server has such "guidelines." Why should the drow be different? It caused nothing but trouble, and it's time to wipe the slate clean.

I enjoy playing clerics. So I think what you’re saying is that my cleric can do anything and “Lolth” (DM’s) won’t give my character a fall widget? (clerics in the past would get a fall widget for killing spiders for instance – so from now on the DM’s are hands off and it’s up to the other cleric Characters to take care of business? Oh, and if the clerics don’t cause the character who killed the spider to die (Lolth dogma: kill a spider and you must die), does the cleric that didn’t do anything get a fall widget?)

I don’t want to be surprised OOCly with my cleric. It’s helpful to know what you can and can’t do with your cleric build since a fall widget sucks. And please note that unless I’m told I would have no idea what the DM team would or wouldn’t hand a fall widget out for, sorry.

And I think you’re saying that my cleric of Lolth can be anything I want without any testing or requirements and "Lolth" (DM's) will be hands off?

You know better.

Clerics get fallen if they violate their gods dogma and go against their oath.

As they should be.

And that goes for all clerics.

What are you on about?

What does a deity's dogma have to do with the OOC guidelines you want?

I'm also rather flattered that you think my opinion has some bearing on DM policy.

Ah, gotcha, Amarice thanks. If I go by the Dogma I'm good. That's what I was asking.

Just to clarify the context:

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Sure, Iron the drow are diverse. However, I think becivs example of Triad characters in Kohlingen is valid. If a character does not use the guidelines set by Kohlingen laws, then theres trouble. Anyone making a Triad Paladin should know to follow those guidelines. Anyone not following them knows they will be in trouble, it's not a surprise.

There were guidelines set up for UD drow so everyone would know the basics. Any character overtly going against the guidelines, if caught, was in big trouble. They knew it, everyone knew it.

Suddenly all the guidelines that were used from the UD forum for years were not being supported by the oversight committee. Things were done in the open that didn't fit those guidelines. Since I didn't want to be the one to make up the new guildelines, I bailed. It's not up to me to make up the rules for qualifications for a matron mother of a noble house (cleric of Lolth lvls or even being a cleric of Lolth are no longer used for instance) or how the ranks in the Temple are determined or who gets to issue orders to whom or how punishment is dished out to noble house members.

Which is why its a great time for all the folks who didn't want to follow guidelines to get involved.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

It isn't the cannon lore that’s gotten deleted it is the Amia guidelines, guys.

Beciv's character Vlos WAS NOT built as a priest of Lolth because the DM team told him that due to the Amia guidelines if Vlos was caught as a priest of Lolth he would get a fall widget.

The guidelines that were agreed to were understood and used. That is no longer true. The new UD drow have a female Selvetarm priestess as a matron mother, a Yathrin as a Ul'ath'tallar, no more sorcere or melee magthere etc.

These are contrary to the Amia guidelines that have been used for as long as I have been running UD drow characters.

I'm not saying this is good or bad, what I'm saying is that without the guidelines its darn confusing. Unfortunately for me I don't have any characters who would take a Selvetarm priestess Matron Mother seriously (sorry Ada'vrae, I still think your RP is amazing, I love it OOCly). And as a matter of fact I have a couple characters that would start hunting these out of the ordinary characters down to treat them like heretics. Do you think they would appreciate that reaction? Knowing that they would never be able to convince my character that they are accepted by Lolth? And how do I reconcile the fact that I just can't bring myself to make a character who would be accepting of things that are outside the guidelines I've been playing by on Amia for years?

I think it's great that the folks who aren't using the guidelines have a new city and events to make the RP fun. But until the Amia guidelines are settled on it just doesn't make sense to me. Why? Because we're not talking about a faction here we're talking about an entire society.

These are the guidelines you were asking for and to which I responded. At least the way I read it, the discussion has nothing to do with whether Lolthite clerics can fall. That's a purely IC consequence, and the "guideline" you have to go by is Lolth's dogma in Demihuman Deities/Faiths & Pantheons.

There should not be an OOC guideline about whether a priestess of Selvetarm can lead a house, or whether a male mushroom farmer can command a city of matrons. Those are IC issues you have to sort out, though you may get some NPC support.

As for male clerics Falling, it's a controversial topic and I can only assume the DMs doing that weren't aware that Lolth has male priests. Demihuman Deities states this, though it also states they don't advance into high levels. In Amia's context of a different edition and of level inflation, though, that level limit hardly matters. F&A doesn't say Lolth can have male clerics, but it's fairly obvious that's because the entire book is a simplified abbreviation of three books. There has been no historical change in the setting between editions that would explain those 4% of male clerics just disappearing over a period of five years. It's not against the rules to play a male cleric of Lolth (it doesn't say so in R&L) but he's probably not going to get much influence in any church - that is, unless PCs let him. That is another IC matter. No god is going to turn down worshipers who advance their cause.

As Glim suggested, you can be given some reading suggestions. In fact, I can compile you a list of all the relevant FR material on drow. I obviously can't provide you with legal copies of them all, but it isn't hard to find some. That is fine. Compiling lore for educational purposes is one thing. Making OOC "guidelines" to playing properly is quite another.

The DMs are plenty aware Lolth has male priests.

I feel I should post here, as no doubt I'm partly responsible for this thread's existence.

The context behind this discussion I feel is partly inspired by the recent in game events that have transpired over the past couple of months down in the Underdark. (Underdark? Active!? Bet you all never saw that coming!) Basically, my character was responsible for a dysjunction in Edonil that threw Drow society (and the manual of how to run it) into a topsy turvey.

Prior to, during and after this dysjunction, the following has occured:

* The academies (magthere, sorcere and VDVM) were integrated into a single organisation simply called "The Vanguard." (The players from Ultrinnan's days will know what it was based off).
* An unorthodox male came across as dictating events, taking charge and superceeding the Matron's council by making things look like it wasn't in their control.
* A shift in power of the Matron's Houses, both publicly and behind the back of the first house of the time
* The calling of... unusual... "allies" into the situation
* Civil divide caused by splitting loyalties.
* Another city getting burned to the ground in a spectacular fashion (I swear we should just become nomads)
* The election of a Selvetarm Priestess as Matron in the aftermath
* A former Yathrin (middle tiered Priestess in the Temple ranking system) stepping in to become the High Priestess.

To those who know (or think they know) Drow, this is highly unorthodox if you compared it to Menzo itself and would most definately breach the former OOC guidelines, or the general jist of how Drow are supposed to roll in a Lolthite society.

But... my counter-arguement to that is that all of those events were allowed to happen in game in a cause and effect motion, resulting in what we have now. That's all I have to say on the matter: OOC guidelines on what is "acceptable" and what is "unacceptable" do not factor in the natural progression of rolling with the punches.... which is why I think they're rather unnecessary. However, I acknowledge that there is bias on my part because I do have a toon that fell out of the previous "guidelines" on what a Drow should be.

[edit] Cut out a whole lot of info. It wasn't really relevant to the topic.

I wonder if the unorthodox male will be able to shift his way out of being a Shunned.

If it happens, it happens. If not, that's the price you pay.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

It’s helpful to know what you can and can’t do with your cleric build since a fall widget sucks. And please note that unless I’m told I would have no idea what the DM team would or wouldn’t hand a fall widget out for, sorry.

You're asking for consistency and fair play from Lolth? What is it about Lolth that suggests to you that this should happen? Lolth is exactly the sort of bitch who would fall one cleric for the exact same crimes that she gives another cleric a total pass for. Just because it makes her giggle, or because she got miffed at some preposterous flaw in the cleric's last sacrifice. Or for literally no reason at all. She'll break or ignore her own rules whenever it's convenient for her. Playing a Lolthite cleric inherently equals an acceptance that Lolth is not going to treat you fairly. Lolth should be the absolute last deity to get OOC guidelines like you're asking for. If you want advance warning on what will or won't earn your cleric a fall widget, play a Tyrran.

Malios Darkblade wrote:

I feel I should post here, as no doubt I'm partly responsible for this thread's existence.

The context behind this discussion I feel is partly inspired by the recent in game events that have transpired over the past couple of months down in the Underdark. (Underdark? Active!? Bet you all never saw that coming!) Basically, my character was responsible for a dysjunction in Edonil that threw Drow society (and the manual of how to run it) into a topsy turvey.

I haven't done any real digging and some of this may exist, but I couldn't really find it in a concise collection in a few minutes.

It might be worth it to keep an "Underdark Lore" thread with current information about our underdark setting. That way people expecting Mezzo style "underdark" don't end up having a "wtf" moment when they get into game. Some of what you list should be common knowledge at this point. This modern lore serves for what is an "ooc" guideline for what to expect and will let people shape characters accordingly.

Basically what Liz said. IMO, you shouldn't be so concerned with if doing X will give you a fall widget, especially with Lloth, because she can just take your power away at any time because she deems it funny, and repeatedly does so. She also gives divine power to random creatures, just to see chaos.

In truth, the fact that she never takes your power away is because you're afforded common decency of the amian DM's and thus are given a false sense of security and an allure that most drow priestesses are never afforded the luxury of. For example, if you read DoTU, look for the trials that every priestess must endure, and certainly one involves going without spells for months, even years, and proving authority through sheer measure of charisma and strength rather than divinity.

Liz wrote:

You're asking for consistency and fair play from Lolth? What is it about Lolth that suggests to you that this should happen? Lolth is exactly the sort of bitch who would fall one cleric for the exact same crimes that she gives another cleric a total pass for. Just because it makes her giggle, or because she got miffed at some preposterous flaw in the cleric's last sacrifice. Or for literally no reason at all. She'll break or ignore her own rules whenever it's convenient for her. Playing a Lolthite cleric inherently equals an acceptance that Lolth is not going to treat you fairly. Lolth should be the absolute last deity to get OOC guidelines like you're asking for. If you want advance warning on what will or won't earn your cleric a fall widget, play a Tyrran.

And the problem with this is that Lolth is a guy or gal DMing a game. I'm familiar with Lolth as a diety. I'm talking OOC information. It’s the fact that OOCly the guidelines that were being used since 2008 have not only changed but are completely gone as far as I can tell.

So those of us who were in Udos/Ultrinnan/Edonil had a sense of what would be a really difficult character to play or a character who would fit in or how to build an appropriate Amia UD Drow are wondering how much and how exactly those guidelines we’ve been using have changed.

Like making a LE Helmite, you know that the OOC guideline is that if you’re found out to be Evil you’re going to have a more difficult time than if your character was LG,LN,NN – like making a tiefling that’s LG or a aasimar that’s evil, OOCly we all know it’ll be tough to do. Since we know that going in we can decide if we want the headache. Also, we can decide on a build that will work well. We can build a paladin/rogue but we know that when our PC friends see those sneak attacks it'll be tough, we can build a blackguard elf but we know that Winya just might kick our PC out.

In the UD society on Amia you were OOCly aware of the fact that your mage would go into the Sorcere, your character would have to be 17 levels of cleric of Lolth in order to be a matron mother and plan your build accordingly etc. If your PC makes a mistake in UD drow society it can mean death or worse. So it is important to know going in.

Erroch hit the nail on the head. I and other players are having a HUGE WTF moment right now. I don’t want to ruin the fun for those who have embraced this new Amia UD but eesh, now I want a rebuild for a character since I don’t have to follow the stricter guidelines that are now gone. Not only that but how do I wrap my head around my characters reaction to what they thought was the way to do things have radically changed? To me this is like someone telling us all that the guidline that we should use a knife to cut things is no longer there, we can use spoons, forks, plates, bowls, rocks, what ever we want to cut our steak Oh and since that's true knives will no longer sold so that other implements can serve the purpose that knife had.

If you have an easy time wrapping your head around this, great. Me? I'm having a heck of a time and need some help.

Huge thanks to Amarice and IronAngel for taking the time to help my mind get around what the hell happened.

PS. My first PC in Ultrinnan was killed and dragged out of the city by her hair the first day because I didn't know the OOC guidelines. Which explains why I think it's important to know.

Lizzie summed up what I had hoped would have been obvious, when I posted my one-liner at the top. Even if the OOC guidelines have changed... so what? Lolth is change. If your character ICly suddenly finds that things aren't happening the same as they used to, you deal with it ICly (and there's so many ways to do so). Has Lolth herself changed her mind on a few things? It is a test from Lolth for her faithful to set things aright? Is it a sign that Lolth's dominion over the Underdark is lessening? Or is Lolth just lulling her enemies into a false sense of security with their new rise to power? Or is it.... (the list goes on)

You also can't compare a hardcore chaotic deity (perhaps the most chaotic) and their dogma / mode of thought, to a hardcore lawful deity. Helm and some of the other lawful or paladin-type deities have more clear cut dogma, more stringent requirements of their followers (especially divine ones) by nature of the deity themselves. A deity like Lolth? If you look at her dogma, it essentially is summed up as, "Serve Lolth, please her, revere arachnids." But it leaves the rest vague at best and while one or two aspects remain more or less static (like revering arachnids and weeding out the weak), she is a lesson in chaotic whimsy. You can expect to more or less know what Helm wants in any given situation, he's pretty clear-cut, barring some deity-level change in circumstances that mere mortals are not aware of. But Lolth, what she wants beyond reverence, chaos, strife and sacrifice, is anyone's guess and is ever-changing.

And that should be dealt with ICly.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

...now I want a rebuild for a character since I don’t have to follow the stricter guidelines that are now gone.

This is entirely the wrong mode of thought and why I never cared for the OOC restrictions on level requirements for certain positions (in the UD or otherwise). Because on an OOC level, if the requirements do change later down the line, peoples' builds are effed over. And on an IC level... guess what, class levels are OOC anyway. Yes, caster levels can be measured to some degree in what spells a character can cast, but even that's not perfect, (my mage got 5th level spells early because of an item with bonus spell slots on it and he would have seemed higher level than he was) and is a flimsy cover for an OOC requirement.

But rebuilding a character because it suddenly doesn't have to conform to an OOC requirement that you molded it around is silly. Change your character for IC reasons or make small OOC adjustments, sure. But don't go off and rebuild your character entirely for OOC reasons.

Sorry Glim you totally miss my point.

But hey, I'll take your advice. I won't rebuild a thing, I won't change a thing. I'll roll and do exactly what my character would do.

I had a rather nice post made in regards to some things, but I thought that it would be possible to just say I was 'too close to the matter' to have a sound judgement so I removed some of it. Here's the remaining portions; I only mentioned Zrae at the end because it directly reflects a portion of the climate of Edonil.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

In the UD society on Amia you were OOCly aware of the fact that ... your character would have to be 17 levels of cleric of Lolth in order to be a matron mother and plan your build accordingly etc.

False. I have never once heard or seen that in the past two years. The only requirement I have ever seen communicated was that you were required to have 17+ levels of cleric planned by the end of your build. I believe it was ainjyll that said that. If you have a source that states differently, I definitely want to see it. As for the Sorcere... I don't know what the confusion is. At present, they are in there 'mage division' of the Vanguard which is technically the Sorcere minus a building. Remember, Nizzre'tyne and the old Matron's Council were the ones that originally supported the Vanguard structure (Nizzre'tyne even made the initial posting, I believe). So, I'm not really sure how there can be any confusion in regard to the Vanguard. By anyone.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

PS. My first PC in Ultrinnan was killed and dragged out of the city by her hair the first day because I didn't know the OOC guidelines. Which explains why I think it's important to know.

That's a shame, seriously. What happened in Ultrinnan is complete BS, in my opinion, and actually supports the fact that there were no OOC guidelines. There has simply been 'the way things have been', which is not at all conducive to a good community environment. What if player, completely new to the UD, had that happen to them and were completely blindsided by such things because Amia was secretly run different to how the canon lore is? They likely would say 'screw this' and leave. Most of these 'OOC guidelines' I have never seen anywhere, it's word of mouth or 'OOC agreements' by the playerbase. There are no hidden guidelines or secret things like that currently, yet there are guidelines there. We follow lore and are rather good at showing people the way.

'The way things have been' also have and have not been canon Lolthite lore. Kirries being openly welcomed into a Lolthite society, for one. Unruly males that were favored, another. I have personally witnessed at least three cases of unruly males, and heresy, from those that were 'favored' or 'had power'; that should make someone go 'wtf'. Was anything done? Nope. Zrae didn't do anything because in one case she had no authority and there was an Ilharess standing directly next to the disrespectful male; one of the other times she didn't give two craps on a cracker because they were going to die anyways (she actually found it amusing, and it proved some things IC).

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Sorry Glim you totally miss my point.

But hey, I'll take your advice. I won't rebuild a thing, I won't change a thing. I'll roll and do exactly what my character would do.

What do you think Miz'ri did, mwahaha. It's the only way to go in all situations. Do what your character would do.

Naivatkal, this isn't about the IC events or the new Vanguard. Please don't think for a second that I think you and your character are wrong or that the new set up is wrong. Nizzre agreed to the Vanguard and Solaviir because her plan was to get him (as the leader of the Vanguard) to piss off the demons so badly they'd kill him. Heh. Major miscalulation on Nizzre's part there. In all honesty I was thinking that the vanguard would go their merry way and those of us who wanted to keep the Mezzo-like society would go ours. Sadly, we have no place to go atm.

Aly'isgar and Vlos as Kiaransalees worked really hard for about a year ICly to get the Lolthites to accept Kiaransalees. It was a pain in the arse but we were rewarded by being included in politics and the ability to play houses against each other. We also had a Kia idol hidden but for whatever reason it wasn't moved and we didn't follow up. The move of the idol into the temple was per a matron but we thought hey, what a slap in the face of Lolth to have Kias idol in her temple so we left it there. Remember there is a lot of behind the scenes action. I take it on faith that you have good reasons for Zrae's actions and I would say that I had good reasons for what Nizzre did too.

Also, a Yathrins duty was to take unruly males to task. If your character didn't want to do that then hopefully Zrae took notes to use it against the males mistress later.

As for the guidelines, there are several postings that are under Fierene Havenstar that I copied from what was posted in Ultrinnan. Requirements for priestess ranks, spider guard etc. I'm not saying you have to use these. You guys (Ul'ath'tallar and matrons) get to make up laws & requirements as you see fit on the island.

I'm a fan of all the players RP that I've witnessed in UD drowsville. The quality of drow players RP has been excellent. Still is in my opinion. I'm glad to see Zrae stepping up. It looks to me like you're having a great time. Which is how it should be. Unfortunately, due to the nature of the antics of UD drow sometimes its hard not to take things personally. If you got that feeling then I apologize. This is all about me and how can I cope with changes.

I was looking for something to help my mind handle what I see as a sudden and jaring change. You guys are already there. So it probably looks like a non issue from your view.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Naivatkal, this isn't about the IC events or the new Vanguard. Please don't think for a second that I think you and your character are wrong or that the new set up is wrong.

I was not trying to insinuate that you were, you had mentioned the Vanguard on several occasions and the Sorcere, so it was more of to clear things up for others on how that works.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

As for the guidelines, there are several postings that are under Fierene Havenstar that I copied from what was posted in Ultrinnan. Requirements for priestess ranks, spider guard etc. I'm not saying you have to use these. You guys (Ul'ath'tallar and matrons) get to make up laws & requirements as you see fit on the island.

Oh, those? Those are requirements so I wasn't thinking of those. That stuff all makes sense, but I don't see where any of that is not being reflected in the current city. No one did away with any of that, so I'm highly confused. I think that might be part of the issue. No one did away with the old requirements, that would be awful. I was only referring to the matron requirement and stuff I haven't seen posted. Trust me, I actually copied all of the pertinent posts I could find and ran through them. I'm still revising things and it's been two weeks >_>

I suppose I am missing the jarring change, and if you don't mind, I would love to help.

Otherwise, as the general Drow DM, I wish it to be known that:

•Lolth is the same chaotic bitch she has been, but not in the Old School fashion of direct avatar interaction. My spin with her has been more in the realm of 'Roleplay a spider and see how it is interpreted' or 'Oo! Let's creep into some dreams and cause a scene!' She no longer spells things out, leaving much to interpretation.

•As Needled stated, Lolth is fickle with falls for her own amusement. See Miz'ri and the 'test of Faith.'

•If you aren't interested in where the Drow down under have gone, you are welcome to strike out into a new area below or even onto the surface! I am all for player driven plot and it could be interesting overall to see another Lolthite group crop up (or relocate in this case). There are many locations to choose from that wouldn't even be resource intensive to repurpose and start in a fashion more fitting of old Menzo.

The only spelled-out thing I can think of, apart from the slavery rules, is the matron level requirement. I may remember this wrong to make myself feel better, but I'm pretty sure that was something Nekh and Straz wanted to keep to maintain a certain order in society despite my objections. Nonetheless, if the DMs have finally let go of an OOC build requirement to achieve IC influence, I am delighted. It served a purpose, but one I think could have been achieved with IC means. It doesn't encourage RP, it railroads it.

Requirements of advance in the temple or the temple guard are an IC thing, and should not have been spelled out OOC. I don't know if they were, but no player should have any business metagaming other PCs' levels. That is something that the leader of a given insitution needs to decide and enforce IC. They are not, and must not be, "OOC guidelines." No player has any business giving other players OOC guidelines, and no DM has any business telling a player how to run their faction. So really, unless it's an NPC-overseen faction, nobody has any business to tell anybody anything OOC.

I don't mean to be unsympathetic, but I can't sympathise with your desire for clarity. Why should you have a clear idea about what's going on? Is drow RP only enjoyable if it's safe and predictable? Do you need external circumstances to go your way and support your idea of proper society in order to pursue it? You haven't said so explicitly, but that seems to be the gist and general tendency of what you're asking. I couldn't agree more with the approach Dust and Glim have expressed above. The Underdark seems to be in good hands, so there's little need to worry.

On the topic of requirements for being a priestess of x rank... the alternative would be telling them IC what they need to qualify... and if it's certain spells then you are metagaming their levels anyways. I know what you are saying, but there's a fine line in what constitutes metagaming someone's level. With our knowledge of what casting x spell means, we can get a rough idea of it anyways.

Personally I think it's a moot point. I assume most drow females are high level clerics unless something says otherwise. Kinda like I usually figure most characters I run into are higher level than I. In the end, it doesn't matter if you know their class level when you already know they are a cleric. What matters is how far progressed they are, and you can find that out in other ways as well.

The way I see it, so long as the character is partly cleric, it shouldn't be an issue.

However, I am perfectly alright if the players wish to keep up the OOC build restriction as the IC I have seen on it has been: "The strongest of the Matron mothers is expected to be able call Lolth's strongest blessings down upon her house!"

And as every Matron wants to be the strongest of them all, that to me screams fun and delicious flavor RP!

Well, that's something they would have to enforce IC. If a female wizard managed to lift up her own secretly-Vhaeraunian house into power and either bluffed or intimidated the other matrons into accepting her supremacy, then there certainly shouldn't be a player-enforced OOC policy that she must have cleric levels. How do we know whether characters in game have the will or the means to enforce that requirement in a given situation?

It's pretty obvious that other matrons can use the lack of divine spells as ammunition against some aspiring mage. If they don't or if it's not enough, that's their bad.

Naivatkal: sure, that's possible. I'm not sure if it would be a believable IC requirement, though. Why would your arch priestess just promote any newcomer who grinds up to epics without IC merit? Promotion should be based on time spent apprenticed in the temple and serving local interests. Someone who is level 15 and has been role-playing diligently in the temple institution for a year would probably get the promotion IC sooner than a boisterous new arrival 10 levels higher. If anything, such people would be perceived as a threat to be controlled. I'm not saying this "should" be the way it goes because RP can lead elsewhere, but it certainly seems like the more likely scenario if your opinions aren't already influenced by OOC level requirements. It should be the Arch Priestess who interacts with every cleric anyway and promotes them according to her wishes (perhaps sharing responsibility with High Priestesses), not just automatic advancement based on levels.

I would see Fierene's query about Cleric levels from the opposite angle. If she took those levels to cater to an OOC rule that is actually not a rule, sure, it's only sensible to give her a rebuild and let her have a character just how she intended it to be. It's fixing a bad situation, it's not a player being opportunistic or having the wrong idea.

Way back when, it was completely different. DMs were strongly involved and there was an OOC set of rules that did make any kind of strictly IC maneuvering more difficult. I remember instances where non-Clerics were forbidden from leadership positions, even though it could've been totally fun. Definitely more fun for the players who didn't wanna play Priestesses because it didn't fit them. They were going to 'fake it', it would've been delicious. But it got the OOC doorstopper treatment.

We're now playing in a much more liberal setting, which is brilliant. That it veers so strongly away from canon as it apparently has lately is one of the things you have to swallow for the greater good of the freedom you receive. In the end, both are legitimate approaches with their own ups and downs.

This is a bizarre topic. If one of my characters doesn't like what they see they try to change it ICLY. If that means stabbing, what my character believes to be a heretic, in the face then so be it.

IronAngel pretty much echos my thoughts on the matter. As a player, I would be a bit wrankled by any OOC statute placed on IC position.

Xordae, it was never stated that someone in the position you talk about can never get a rebuild approved. My point to FH was that OOC reasons, whatever they might be, should not be the basis of a rebuild.

IronAngel wrote:

Naivatkal: sure, that's possible. I'm not sure if it would be a believable IC requirement, though. Why would your arch priestess just promote any newcomer who grinds up to epics without IC merit? Promotion should be based on time spent apprenticed in the temple and serving local interests. Someone who is level 15 and has been role-playing diligently in the temple institution for a year would probably get the promotion IC sooner than a boisterous new arrival 10 levels higher. If anything, such people would be perceived as a threat to be controlled. I'm not saying this "should" be the way it goes because RP can lead elsewhere, but it certainly seems like the more likely scenario if your opinions aren't already influenced by OOC level requirements. It should be the Arch Priestess who interacts with every cleric anyway and promotes them according to her wishes (perhaps sharing responsibility with High Priestesses), not just automatic advancement based on levels.

Having x levels of cleric was never the only requirement (as long as I have been here), that would certainly be a terrible set of requirements. Proving yourself to the temple and in the eyes of the priestesses, and importantly the Ul'ath'tallar, was a large part of it. Hence why you have to actually test into the different levels of Temple priestesses. So it's not all coming down to grinding and such. And I shudder to think what would happen to a character that tested and didn't know the dogma correctly. I believe the 'level requirements' are part in parcel with allowing people to have the power to support the station they are in, which makes sense.

Check Fi's Temple Rankings post (mine hasn't been refined and posted yet, plus there's no real need until the Temple is finished at the end of this week). There's no automatic promotions, I would have changed that myself if that was the case lol. I hope this all helps to clear up some misconceptions.

xordae wrote:

I would see Fierene's query about Cleric levels from the opposite angle. If she took those levels to cater to an OOC rule that is actually not a rule, sure, it's only sensible to give her a rebuild and let her have a character just how she intended it to be. It's fixing a bad situation, it's not a player being opportunistic or having the wrong idea.

Way back when, it was completely different. DMs were strongly involved and there was an OOC set of rules that did make any kind of strictly IC maneuvering more difficult. I remember instances where non-Clerics were forbidden from leadership positions, even though it could've been totally fun. Definitely more fun for the players who didn't wanna play Priestesses because it didn't fit them. They were going to 'fake it', it would've been delicious. But it got the OOC doorstopper treatment.

We're now playing in a much more liberal setting, which is brilliant. That it veers so strongly away from canon as it apparently has lately is one of the things you have to swallow for the greater good of the freedom you receive. In the end, both are legitimate approaches with their own ups and downs.

The amount of sheer wrong you have in your post makes my heart sad :<

Naiv, he/she is entitled to their opinion. It doesn't make them inherently 'wrong.'

I disagree slightly with them as I am personally strongly involved, but not to an overly invasive extent. However, I do agree that through giving the Drow as much freedom as we have, not all of them desire to stick strictly to canon for a plethora of reasons. I don't see it as a great detriment to Amia though as the players as a whole seem thrilled with the perks that accompany their ability to guide themselves as well as the rewards and risks that come with it.

My method is simple in regards to player freedom: Give folks all the rope in the world and drop hints if they look to be tying it up in a noose. Beyond that, don't pull the plug on them if they do it anyways but make sure they feel consequences for the actions in an IC sense while being continually supportive OOCly.

Otherwise, in general, I tend to focus on flavor interactions and try to do my best to bring the already fantastic looking setting the Devs provide to life in a believable way.

Yeah, I did mean DM involvement in an invasive way. The UD 7 years ago was a completely different animal compared to now.

With luck, there's always enough characters with a strongly enough canon upbringing that they will steer a weird situation back on track. But especially with a cruel femdom society, sometimes you just gotta vent and PvP that high priestess into the ground.

It's like it was already said, Drow RP tends to bring tension not only between characters.

Not to disagree with the general sentiment, but what do we even mean when we speak of "canon" drow RP? "Liberal" might be appropriate in the sense of "free of arbitrary OOC control" but that doesn't imply a looser connection to the setting. As Lizzie pointed out in the Improving Amia topic, "canon" drow society is incredibly heterogenous and regionally diverse. And like I said, some 20% of drow worship Eilistraee (among others). It's not like drow are "supposed" to be played like Ultrinnan or Menzoberranzan (which was also a surprisingly robust society among the lower classes, as depicted in WotSQ). It's just that Ultrinnan happened to be set up in a way that allowed Lolthite matrons to control it. And despite the OOC/NPC support they gained, ambitious males and non-clerics like Kir'nack and Darli could at times gain more influence than some matrons. It's not like that was "contrary to canon" or "liberal", it was what completely credible and legitimate IC developments and power-plays led to.

I'm preaching to the choir here as this is what most of you already support, but I hate to see it being referred to as "less than canon." We haven't ignored or contradicted any lore on Amia, we're working on the basis of that setting and the realities of the module areas' specific circumstances. Edonil couldn't be canon because it doesn't exist in canon, but the fact that Lolthite matrons lack the institutional power to enforce the same order they might enjoy elsewhere is not liberal or anti-canon. It's the inevitable result of developments within a canonical setting.

Canon drow (in my humble opinion): Females dominate, males gain rank/influence so long as they follow the societal requirements, and Anyone not a Lolthite is hunted with ruthless vengeance. So sayeth Lolth, so will be done.

It's rather simplistic in my mind, I just take the core values of Lolth and run with it. And by 'canon' I mean 'adhering to what the Queen Bitch says to do', lol.

Except that doesn't seem to be true in, well, most drow cities described in the 3.5 Underdark. "Canon drow society" does not equate to "ideal Lolthite society" which seems to be an assumption people repeatedly make. I wager the society vaguely imagined in the dogma of Lolth (which lays down few clear and straightforward facts even if it were followed to the letter) doesn't actually exist anywhere in the Realms, so trying hard OOC to create it on Amia seems doubly silly.

Oh yeah, definitely. I honestly don't think a true/ideal Lolthite city would work. There would be far too much chaos. That's part of the allure of the drow: they are inherently chaotic yet they impose loose rules and order on themselves. I say loose because they are made so that they can have loopholes. Take, for instance, their stance on inter-house 'warfare' in the city: So long as you are not caught (or seen *cough*Darkness*cough*) and there are no surviving witnesses then you are not guilty. I mean, what? lol

That's part of the reason why my stance is so simple at the core. It allows for greater room and freedom yet sticks to the core values. Zrae is a bit more staunch in things, however she is keeping things in line with dogma which allowing for the city to drive forward. It's hard, and things are going to continue shaping up. So far.

Naivatkal wrote:

Canon drow (in my humble opinion): Females dominate, males gain rank/influence so long as they follow the societal requirements, and Anyone not a Lolthite is hunted with ruthless vengeance. So sayeth Lolth, so will be done.

It's rather simplistic in my mind, I just take the core values of Lolth and run with it. And by 'canon' I mean 'adhering to what the Queen Bitch says to do', lol.

Actually, there are really no more “societal requirements” unless you can enforce them. (You say ‘societal requirements’, I say ‘general guidelines’) Where before the societal requirements knew that females were more respected than males.…not so much now. The females will no longer dominate as they have been. If a male has a more powerful build then they can intimidate even a priestess into doing what he wants. If the mages wanted they could turn the new island into a mage run city. Oh sure you can put up the rule that no one can enter the Temple unescorted but without witnesses who's to say your character was in there? This will bring up some interesting delimas such as the victum claiming that it must have been X that assasinated victum since victum saw them just before they died.

I will point out that Lolth does offer non-Lolthite drow one caveat, “Convert” before destroy. I liked that idea since capture RP is fun, PVP RP is sort of…meh for me.

I will also say that hunting with ruthless vengeance is for the Kiaransalees. Lolthites would hunt if it meant they could gain power from it somehow.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Oh sure you can put up the rule that no one can enter the Temple unescorted but without witnesses who's to say your character was in there?

Ostensibly, the NPC guards that were just metagamed.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Actually, there are really no more “societal requirements” unless you can enforce them. (You say ‘societal requirements’, I say ‘general guidelines’) Where before the societal requirements knew that females were more respected than males.…not so much now. The females will no longer dominate as they have been.

Not true. Not true. And especially not true.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

I will point out that Lolth does offer non-Lolthite drow one caveat, “Convert” before destroy. I liked that idea since capture RP is fun, PVP RP is sort of…meh for me.

Definitely true, and on a few current and past characters that is no longer an option in Zrae's (and the matrons) eyes.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

I will also say that hunting with ruthless vengeance is for the Kiaransalees. Lolthites would hunt if it meant they could gain power from it somehow.

It's not about vengeance, it's about dogma. Zrae won't allow worshipers of a deity that actively oppose Lolth in the city. In her mind, that's insane and can lead to a disruption of the city's foundations. So it might be a bit too revealing to say this in an open forum btu any Kiaransalee worshipers better be secretive about it if they have to stay alive. It's the penalty for going against Lolth.

There's a lot going on behind the scenes that people don't know about. Actually, there's a lot of this that goes on in front of everyone in the city (or between certain parties), that people can pick up on which negates most of what is being assumed about the new city. Hence the confusion as to why some things are being said.

edit:

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

If the mages wanted they could turn the new island into a mage run city. Oh sure you can put up the rule that no one can enter the Temple unescorted but without witnesses who's to say your character was in there? This will bring up some interesting delimas such as the victum claiming that it must have been X that assasinated victum since victum saw them just before they died.

Do you... have any idea what you are talking about? I mean that seriously, and not to be a dick. It's the exact same way as before. Guess what happened if you went into the Edonil Temple without an escort? You were metagaming the guards, duh. Guess what's going to happen in the new Temple? The same thing. That's server policy.
I would assume that you are not even aware that the Temple is not open yet, correct? So, do tell me exactly where this has any relevance.

Glim wrote:

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Oh sure you can put up the rule that no one can enter the Temple unescorted but without witnesses who's to say your character was in there?

Ostensibly, the NPC guards that were just metagamed.

Ah, I have a way to do it but just so I can use it in the future I'll send you a PM.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Glim wrote:

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Oh sure you can put up the rule that no one can enter the Temple unescorted but without witnesses who's to say your character was in there?

Ostensibly, the NPC guards that were just metagamed.

Ah, I have a way to do it but just so I can use it in the future I'll send you a PM.

Way to do it or not, I want to hear what point that proves. You mentioned it, I want to hear what point you are making, because it means nothing? You could have done the same thing at the Temple in Edonil (supposedly, I'm calling BS), so that 'shatters' society there (because Edonil's society was totally enforced).

I just hope the new settlement, whatever that is, won't have a truckload of NPC guards enforcing the rules. If you have to get a DM for everything, not much is going to happen.

IronAngel wrote:

I just hope the new settlement, whatever that is, won't have a truckload of NPC guards enforcing the rules. If you have to get a DM for everything, not much is going to happen.

Pretty much what I thought when I read the ... "metagaming the guards" thing. Nothing in my opinion stagnates any conflict RP more than placing invincible NPC's everywhere that actually turn into shitty NPC's when you do have people possessing them. It's kind of unfortunate really; one of the main things I liked about the UD was the lack of NPC guards that were there, because it made the RP seem more open and less BS, and certainly allowed less whining for people doing stupid stuff. Not truly sure how to fix the problem, really, but it certainly takes away, when you have to ask mommy before you can do anything that means something.

My suggestion would just have the spider guard defend against outsiders, and not meddle in politics no matter what. But eh, that's just like, my opinion.

Naivatkal wrote:

Not true. Not true. And especially not true.

Hey don’t get mad at me that I can think of a few ways that a male could work around females and there’s even an example of one that did in Edonil. Nizzre was able to keep him in check but he was disrespectful to other matrons (in matron meetings even) and females with no ill consequences. I just never tried/encouraged it before.

Naivatkal wrote:

It's not about vengeance, it's about dogma. Zrae won't allow worshipers of a deity that actively oppose Lolth in the city. In her mind, that's insane and can lead to a disruption of the city's foundations. So it might be a bit too revealing to say this in an open forum btu any Kiaransalee worshipers better be secretive about it if they have to stay alive. It's the penalty for going against Lolth.

One of the things I thought was fun, was that even if I knew OOCly that the PC was a Vhaerunite, I didn’t let that color my IC interaction. If they didn’t get caught, they were successful. Interesting position regarding Kiaransalee since she serves Lolth. *hides bony arm* It's the way things were in Ultrinnan. The Lolthites went after Kiaransalees although "questioning" was involved. Good RP that.

Naivatkal wrote:

Do you... have any idea what you are talking about? I mean that seriously, and not to be a dick. It's the exact same way as before. Guess what happened if you went into the Edonil Temple without an escort? You were metagaming the guards, duh. Guess what's going to happen in the new Temple? The same thing. That's server policy.
I would assume that you are not even aware that the Temple is not open yet, correct? So, do tell me exactly where this has any relevance.

Yup I do know what I’m talking about. And you're not being a dick. Of course if a PC isn't inventive then the guards alone keep the rules enforced. I know drow PC's that made it into Cordor without metagaming the guards. Even in Edonil there were those who found ways to get around the rules, just because. Maybe it’s just me (the player) that thought the PC’s that succeeded were funny? Chaos can be fun and nothing is sacred to some PC's. The relevance is that since the new city is based on chaos and don't get caught...I think that's what I'm getting...there are opportunities for a lot more PC's to get involved and not just Lolthites. Its a risk but can be fun.

At first it was a shock not having uber guards like Ultrinnan and I hated it. Now I agree with Ironangel, it's much more interesting and leaves openings for inventive activities when the guards are regular folk.

Last edited by Naivatkal on Wed, Mar 13 2013, 19:45 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Needled247 wrote:

IronAngel wrote:

I just hope the new settlement, whatever that is, won't have a truckload of NPC guards enforcing the rules. If you have to get a DM for everything, not much is going to happen.

It's the same thing with Surface cities, really. Though when did the NPCs meddle with politics? I thought they were just there to enforce people not being able to get into the city when banned lol. That's mostly what I see their utility as. The other reason for the guards is that a PC cannot be on 24/7. Without the guards to, say, keep people out of the Temple then any player could just go and do whatever they want. Would that be fair? Probably not. Why? Because someone screaming 'I hate Lolth' in the middle of the city would provoke more than one person to murder them. Yet if no one is there, how can they have any chance to react? Hence why if a DM lets them in they can actually be some RP (even if it's just the DM using NPCs and there are still no PCs around).

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Not true. Not true. And especially not true.

Hey don’t get mad at me that I can think of a few ways that a male could work around females and there’s even an example of one that did in Edonil. Nizzre was able to keep him in check but he was disrespectful to other matrons (in matron meetings even) and females with no ill consequences. I just never tried/encouraged it before.

Never said I was mad? Also, that sounds like a problem with how things used to run.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

One of the things I thought was fun, was that even if I knew OOCly that the PC was a Vhaerunite, I didn’t let that color my IC interaction. If they didn’t get caught, they were successful. Interesting position regarding Kiaransalee since she serves Lolth. *hides bony arm* It's the way things were in Ultrinnan. The Lolthites went after Kiaransalees although "questioning" was involved. Good RP that.

When did anyone ever state that it is any different. I will kindly ask you to not put words into my mouth and insinuate that we purposefully metagame what we know OOC. Because that is wrong. I know a ton of things in both the UD and Surface OOC yet my characters never act on it.

Fierene Havenstar wrote:

Yup I do know what I’m talking about. And you're not being a dick. Of course if a PC isn't inventive then the guards alone keep the rules enforced. I know drow PC's that made it into Cordor without metagaming the guards. Even in Edonil there were those who found ways to get around the rules, just because. Maybe it’s just me (the player) that thought the PC’s that succeeded were funny? Chaos can be fun and nothing is sacred to some PC's. The relevance is that since the new city is based on chaos and don't get caught...I think that's what I'm getting...there are opportunities for a lot more PC's to get involved and not just Lolthites. Its a risk but can be fun.

At first it was a shock not having uber guards like Ultrinnan and I hated it. Now I agree with Ironangel, it's much more interesting and leaves openings for inventive activities when the guards are regular folk.

Yeah, no? Unless you mean that they had DM involvement, which is cool. But no, if a PC is going into an area they are not supposed to when there is a guard standing there then they are metagaming. See my response to Iron/Needled.

I think Naivatkal and FI just need to make some spite love already.

We seem to have rather different visions. Why do you assume the new settlement should/would be Lolthite? Why should there be NPCs to profess the same faith as the PCs and do their bidding? And I'm not saying there aren't any; but surely by now there are too many other races and other faiths around for the handful of Lolthite drow to hold total control of society. Drow have been problematic for Amia as a whole as long as they've been around, and one reason is the existance of a sheltered Lolthite society with massive NPC support.

In my ideal Underdark, there would be a settlement of mixed faiths and races competing for influence, and the district of Spidertown would be where PC Lolthites enforce order. Considering the Lolthite population has suffered disaster at the descrution of Udos, Ultrinnan and now Edonil, I find it highly uncredible that they would still have the manpower and motivation to dominate over their competitors. The population is, at best, 20% of what it once was. I hope this is what the new Underdark is about. We've tried the drow city model three times and it didn't work.

Gate guards are one thing. Omnipresent NPCs enforcing religious conformity is another. I don't really care what the NPC presence in the chapel (hopefully not a temple) of Lolth will be, but you should be able to shout "I hate Lolth" on the street and get away with it unless PCs do something about it. Do we really want a powerful NPC infrastructure to enforce Lolthism? Why wouldn't any of the NPCs be duergar or orogs or worship Ghaunadaur or Vhaeraun or Shar? There are, after all, probably less Lolthite drow in the world than there are others combined.

Quote:

That being said, it shouldn't be difficult to kill someone who forfeited their 29/30th (if you're getting a bonus too) level feat, +1 ab/saves for 4 stat points that never work well together and SR that for some reason is reduced by mords.

+1000000

gravitas wrote:

I think Naivatkal and FI just need to make some spite love already.

I sent Naiv a love letter via PM.

IronAngel wrote:

We seem to have rather different visions. Why do you assume the new settlement should/would be Lolthite? Why should there be NPCs to profess the same faith as the PCs and do their bidding? And I'm not saying there aren't any; but surely by now there are too many other races and other faiths around for the handful of Lolthite drow to hold total control of society. Drow have been problematic for Amia as a whole as long as they've been around, and one reason is the existance of a sheltered Lolthite society with massive NPC support.

Well, uh, you do realize that the new city is run by Lolthites, right? So, ah, that would be why it is a Lolthite settlement. Not to mention Edonil was predominantly Lolthite. So why would a bunch of Lolthites want to change it from a Lolthite society to another?

IronAngel wrote:

In my ideal Underdark, there would be a settlement of mixed faiths and races competing for influence, and the district of Spidertown would be where PC Lolthites enforce order. Considering the Lolthite population has suffered disaster at the descrution of Udos, Ultrinnan and now Edonil, I find it highly uncredible that they would still have the manpower and motivation to dominate over their competitors. The population is, at best, 20% of what it once was. I hope this is what the new Underdark is about. We've tried the drow city model three times and it didn't work.

There is a place like that. It's L'Obsul. It's run by Lolthites but they don't care who is there. But regardless of that, if players want a Lolthite society then why should it change to non-Lolthite?

IronAngel wrote:

Why wouldn't any of the NPCs be duergar or orogs or worship Ghaunadaur or Vhaeraun or Shar?

I'll single this out: Because there are 'none'. At present there are only drow, plus a few house slaves in the two houses (And so my words cannot be twisted: this is why I said 'none' because I don't know if they are drow in slavery or not).

Needled247 wrote:

Quote:

That being said, it shouldn't be difficult to kill someone who forfeited their 29/30th (if you're getting a bonus too) level feat, +1 ab/saves for 4 stat points that never work well together and SR that for some reason is reduced by mords.

+1000000

>_> Did you mean to post that in IA? lol That doesn't have to do with anything being talked about

This is getting ridiculous, to be frank. Keep it civil and keep the IC happenings out of your examples. You guys know not to bring up IC issues in an OOC thread.

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