AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Well I personally would say a city is not a faction anyways. So Winya is not a faction.

The Armathora could be faction if it has enough numbers and is requested to be one.

Cordor also is not a faction. But the Cordorian Guard is. Wiltun is not a faction but the Jarlwardens are.... and so on

At one time I had two characters in the same faction, but without using an alt. Figure that one out. :wink:

Winya Council is certainly a faction, by Silent's definition, since we have a subforum. I'm just asking if anybody in that faction counts as as "leader" of it. If not, is my other character Robin free to pursue faction leadership, since Kaithan isn't a "leader"?

Hi-Five to the DM team in the actions in the last month. I'm really excited about this.

Liz wrote:

Winya Council is certainly a faction, by Silent's definition, since we have a subforum. I'm just asking if anybody in that faction counts as as "leader" of it. If not, is my other character Robin free to pursue faction leadership, since Kaithan isn't a "leader"?

We will discuss this and give you a feedback to this specific question soon. Stay tuned.

Considering the relatively frequent rotation and large size of various councils, they probably shouldn't be considered leadership positions as such. It's up to the factions whether they want an active dedicated leader or one with a second character, IMO.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Liz wrote:

Winya Council is certainly a faction, by Silent's definition, since we have a subforum. I'm just asking if anybody in that faction counts as as "leader" of it. If not, is my other character Robin free to pursue faction leadership, since Kaithan isn't a "leader"?

We will discuss this and give you a feedback to this specific question soon. Stay tuned.

My suggestion, if you're interested, would be to rule that every member of a faction is a "faction leader" if leadership is the entire purpose of the faction. So, Winya and Barak Runedar Councilors would be leaders, Cordor guards and Jarl-Wardens would not.

Mach's Opinion:

Leadership Position: Any position where a group, even if it is not a faction, needs to wait on your decisions to move forward with their own actions within that group. Winya Council would be a prime example of said leadership. You can try to argue and split hairs, but at the core of it, ask your self:

Do others' depend on my active rp in order to move forward?
When I'm not around are things likely to stagnate?
Do I receive prestige and title from this role?
Is this a role others would like to be in were I not available to fill it?

If the answer is yes, then more than likely you ARE a leader.

Council is a leadership position in any city. Even if the city itself is not considered a faction. The issue here is that when you sign up to that sort of thing, it's a given that you are going to spend a portion of your time promoting and moving rp forward for the benefit of the group as a whole. It involves forum postings, being in game regularly, and making decisions for a group in concert with other leaders. It does rotate, so once you were no longer on the council, you would no longer be a leader and could pursue leadership in other groups.

It is frustrating to see the same people on different alts running things. 1. It makes it so that those types of roles do not get spread out to other players (basically you're just being a bit greedy) 2. It makes it so people don't see you around very often because you've divided your attention between groups. 3. It can cause conflict of interest when one group (say Winya) decides to go to war with another (maybe Cordor). You can't be in two places at once for negotiations.

My two cents.

This is the kind of ruling that is so sensical and obviously beneficial you read it and say "wasn't that already a rule?" out of instinct.

Liz wrote:

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Liz wrote:

Winya Council is certainly a faction, by Silent's definition, since we have a subforum. I'm just asking if anybody in that faction counts as as "leader" of it. If not, is my other character Robin free to pursue faction leadership, since Kaithan isn't a "leader"?

We will discuss this and give you a feedback to this specific question soon. Stay tuned.

My suggestion, if you're interested, would be to rule that every member of a faction is a "faction leader" if leadership is the entire purpose of the faction. So, Winya and Barak Runedar Councilors would be leaders, Cordor guards and Jarl-Wardens would not.

Unfortunately a few members of the previous council were told they couldn't run again because other characters were leaders of different factions. Council members hold a lot more sway than run of the mill faction leaders so they count, in the eyes of the rulez, as faction leaders.

Well, factions have never been DM-enforced. A faction is just a bunch of people interacting on a voluntary basis, so drawing that line is pretty arbitrary. We never wanted to enforce anything about them before, as that would make them somehow official and legitimate and no longer a matter of free player action. I still find it hard to justify any imposed rules concerning non-NPC factions, but my stance is pretty much what Dark Immolation described; not worth my time to educate unwilling students on something that has no practical consequence for me.

Any rule that affects IC behaviour and choice is inherently bad, but sometimes it may be the lesser evil. It seems everyone considers this such a case, and who am I to disagree.

Stay tuned for the next rule: Banning Oghma worshiping PCs!

Your name is now wiped from the Book of Everything.

This topic is getting VERY complicated with the involvement of council positions.

Aye. I'd like to hear more about the DM stance on councils etc.

There's also a difference between being on the Council of a PC faction and an NPC-inhabited, DM-controlled city. Though I'm not sure if there are any current PC factions with multiple leaders.

Silent just gave the DM stance on Council members, so far as I can tell.

Silent2001 wrote:

Council members hold a lot more sway than run of the mill faction leaders so they count, in the eyes of the rulez, as faction leaders.

Much contradiction there was. - Yoda

Oh, there's still this clause in the rule concerning faction leaders:

Quote:

:!: Some factions require leaders whose builds are suitable for the position: Llothite Matron Mothers must have a final build of 17 cleric levels (though you need not have reached it yet), and leaders of other religious groups or churches are subject to similar expectations. An Arch Druid must be a druid, and so on.

Have you discussed it yet? It should probably be removed as obsolete, as these are matters to be decided IC.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Much contradiction there was. - Yoda

What contradiction? Council members are considered faction leaders for rules purposes. What is unclear about that?

This is why I always vote Svensk as most confused when the Amia awards arrive.

I actually vote him that weekly even when the voting isn't in session just because I love svenks.

Good rule!

Winya Council menbers should be counted as faction leaders. Even though they vote together. I hate to see it when there are players and character who really want to be councilors and don't get chosen, then those players who get chosen after a couple of weeks become inactive on those councilor characters.

I don't even understand why you wouldn't consider them as "faction leaders" when they obviously are in a position of leadership and influencing the city, due to the fact that they can vote instead of other players and NPC's on matters that are important, choose one and stick with it.

What comes to the rule I have to say it is a good one, at least it prevents metagaming, having experienced such through other player, it is not nice. About time, I actually hope this had been made during my stay in that faction, if nothing else, we hadn't been so obviously shot down. Then again, it is only -my- view how it went.

Magiros wrote:

Winya Council menbers should be counted as faction leaders. Even though they vote together. I hate to see it when there are players and character who really want to be councilors and don't get chosen, then those players who get chosen after a couple of weeks become inactive on those councilor characters.

I don't even understand why you wouldn't consider them as "faction leaders" when they obviously are in a position of leadership and influencing the city, due to the fact that they can vote instead of other players and NPC's on matters that are important, choose one and stick with it.

What comes to the rule I have to say it is a good one, at least it prevents metagaming, having experienced such through other player, it is not nice. About time, I actually hope this had been made during my stay in that faction, if nothing else, we hadn't been so obviously shot down. Then again, it is only -my- view how it went.

Not that I necessary disagree with what you said above, but I think sometimes there is accidental metagaming that happens that's not all ill intentioned (though I'm certainly not naive about this matter either). I know a few times myself I've gotten confused with Rhyl and Laurel because they had such similar groups they interacted with most often and I had to reference my notes to be sure I wasn't mixing it up.

With that said, accidental or not, I think this new rule would help the altitus-driven conflation that tends to occur when people have multiple charas in the same circle.

I don't care if it is accidental or not, the results can be devastating to the new faction. All that roleplay where people really put effort to, just to be taken away by someone's "mistake".

To add to my previous post, the councilors have a choice whether they take the position or not. If you do not have the capasity or/nor the interest to take it, come with IC excuse. Simple, otherwise your just damaging the reputaton of the character, which you obviously shouldn't have had earned in the first place.

I totally agree, Winya Councilors (and members of other ruling councils too) should count as faction leaders, as I mentioned above. The only reason I even asked was because until now, there hasn't (to my knowledge) been any formal definition of "faction leader."

To me it has been always quite clear that if you choose to become Winya Council member you can't become any other faction leader. Funny enough is that I've never even become council member, been nominated once and I still know this.

If I recall correctly, which I believe I do, there was discussion of the very same topic year or more ago. And the answer was the same, leader is a leader. There isn't really much room to it, if you lead, meaning your in an position of influence your a leader. Simple really.

Edit: With position of influence I mean that your regocnised by the DM's and other players as a leader of that place, as councilor are simply due to the fact they are voted by others. It is -quite- clear they are leaders. Even all the elven material I've read the fact is the same, council members are usually voted and are in a place of influence and leadership.

maglorine wrote:

This is the kind of ruling that is so sensical and obviously beneficial you read it and say "wasn't that already a rule?" out of instinct.

Bingo.

Oh god, not another new rule!

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