Anubis I would add that a penalty for PVP death is also being target of possible 15 PP attempts while you wait for the server to allow to do anything, and the investment on the PPer is 2 skill points if cross class, 1 skill point if a class skill.

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I play:
Frums Deedone, the Green Child
Balrig Sootkiln, Blood and Vellum

How is it metagaming when you can just scry for their body and even if you didn't scry, you can just pretend like you did?

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Afaik, Scrying is a PnP spell that should be casted under DM supervision.

Right?

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Mercadier - *sleeps six feet under the warm sands of Khem*
Alex - Life is adventure or nothing!
Eddie - Sex, drugs and rock'n... more sex.
=========
Obsidian (inactive)

Yes. And you can't scry bodies anyway, I think. You could find it, and that's the point, but it would require someone to work for it. And that's good.

"Meaningful death" isn't something that hits you on a mechanical, OOC level. It's something that puts you out of the game and involves other people, with the potential of never coming back. (Though I imagine you could arrange something with the DMs if you felt your death was unwarranted and you can't seem to get back alive.)

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I know of other people who have been caught doing this. It even happened to someone else I know who came across another player who had died, legitimately found with no OOC indications, they raised them because they knew them IC and got docked a level or two and possibly a large amount of their gold, I assume the DM made a connection that because they knew they were two that had known each other IC that he just must have meta-gamed to save the other and acted accordingly.

How the DM's handle it, I'm quite sure you'd prefer to eat the respawn. I don't know if they have changed how they handle it now, but I don't plan to metagame for raise help, either way and neither should others, but I'd be naive to think everyone on the server plays by the rules, but even then there's the odd chance if a DM sees you they may give you an interesting alternative, may involve you being taken as a captive by spawns or something, but atleast you have other IC consequences than losing a load of gold and possibly XP with the chance of a turn in RP opportunities.



Not sure what you mean by this, clarification would be appreciated.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Sure, while you are dead, no matter how good or high your Spot is, Pick Pocket is an auto success. The timer between attempts is 4 secs (I may be wrong here, been ages since I had a PPer) so being realistic, if you let your body there for long enough to send a friendly tell, even congratulating your opponent, the PPer preset, who IC has nothing to do with your Tells, can attempt it some 3 or 4 times, all succesful by default. If you chose to let your body there for the full duration of your Rez Penalty, I am thinking 15 or more attempts could be made, again, all succesful.

When my char was killed in PVP there was a shady type in the attacking party who didnt enter the fray. After dead bodies were on the ground, and much many OOC was going on, he was searching all the dead bodies. Now I have no way to know if he was PPing or not, but when I thought he was, I tried to simply respawn and go to Fugue as I was not interested in what was happening, and the death system wouldnt let me.

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I play:
Frums Deedone, the Green Child
Balrig Sootkiln, Blood and Vellum

Nope. PnP spells require player consent or DM oversight (unless it's an Event thing, then it's DM-only). Unless I have misunderstood something.


This is true, I believe I confirmed it with Glim or something before in another thread or PM. It has to do with corpses not being people, they are items/objects/something.


That's what I was going for in my big ol' post about OOC penalties. Make it meaningful by something other than 'you lost x gold'.
Could also say a DM can respawn you after x time. That way it's still time lost that your character was gone but you are not completely permadead. Gives at least a chance to come back, and could be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. It would be cumbersome at first, but I'm pretty sure it would not take long for the incidents to dwindle.


Regarding PP: Not sure how that matters, since you are never obligated to give another player anything unless a DM says so.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Eh, it's not so much that your death is meaningful, it's just so much that you don't treat your life as if it's meaningless.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Naivatkal: The PP comment was mostly an addednum to Anubis including a personnal opinion. But still Pick Pocket does not depend on DMs in any way, you can test yourself, if a person is dead, and you attempt Pick Pocket, its an auto success. I never bothered to read the specifics of PP in Amia, as I never wanted to play a PPer (except for a legerdemain performer) but whatever the system allows you to get via PP can be obtained several times, without an opposing check, while you are dead.

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I play:
Frums Deedone, the Green Child
Balrig Sootkiln, Blood and Vellum

I suppose you are right about Scrying and player consent, but it requires the consent of everyone involved. That of course includes the killer.

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Oh, didn't realise you meant Pick Pocket. I've seen very few people who actually use that skill in general, even less on dead characters and even then I'm not sure if there's a lot they can steal with the skill alone. I seem to recall that you can't steal items of certain weights and mostly only a small amount of gold is usually taken, what I recall is vague at best and I'm not sure if/how it may have been changed.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Why not Zoidberg? I mean, why not both!

exquisitelyme: Gotcha, I see what you mean. I'm not sure what happens when you use PP, though. I don't think you get anything, no idea how it works myself lol


I've wondered about that, actually. If the killer is not anywhere around, would they need their consent? Probably. It's a grey area now, though, since there's no reference to it. It should probably be mentioned (the only rules mention about scrying is when you are in a fight, I imagine it means after as well but there's room for interpretation by others).

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I think the problem lies that the second half of my statement is sadly true for a lot of players through acting in ways they wouldn't otherwise do it if they knew their actions had real consequence (with or without OOC intent). I think it explains itself.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I think it was in a thread as I seem to remember it being said inanimate objects require a different spell, but even then, exact location isn't pin-pointed, or something.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

I'm not entirely sure what we're trying to aim for here. The resonating statement is that, 'People don't give any substance to death in PvM/PvP.' Are the rules concerning PvP really what needs to be changed? Glim mentioned the DM team is working on streamlining to make them a little clearer (and clear rules are always a great idea), but some of the suggestions which have been made are drastic changes.

The rules in their current format protect the integrity of the RP, and the ongoing story of Amia. There's a damn good reason for each one. They make it fair for both parties in a confrontation, since what is expected is outlined. Most people only have issues with the rules in instances where they are either unknown or misunderstood. If the rules were replaced by guidelines, people would have the choice to ignore them. There would DEFINITELY be more conflicts happening on an OOC level.

Instead of changing the rules behind PvP, perhaps we should be looking at player attitudes to death in RP. Encourage rather than punish. People keep claiming there's no downside to death, but for there you be no downside you'd need to ignore all relevant roleplay that is going on. That's not something we want to encourage. Instead, we'd encourage appropriate and fantastic RP with DC's!

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Just lurking about!

Right, no argument there. Really they are two facets of the same argument. Bet we can both agree that not only should being killed and coming back to life mean something, but so should taking your life seriously and not willy-nilly letting yourself get killed just to be a badass.


viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70254
Haha, it was at the bottom of the page XD


Hehe. The first time Salema actually died and had to respawn was after a pretty traumatic encounter with Domi. I think most of her friends in party died before she did, so that hurt. But I actually railroaded the hunting for the rest of the day with that RP :3 She was pretty freaked out, and the resulting RP from her friends was awesome and touching.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I think we can agree on this. I just think that a little push for punishment on a mechanical level might help change the way people think both IC and OOC on the matter to a more positive "fear of death". It has proven to do so with regards to PvE.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Right!

So that's a good example of where death had a meaningful impact on the RP. Death is always going to impact the RP, whether you die in PvE or PvP. Even if your character can be raised, it more than likely experiences a tremendous amount of pain, it might be fuzzled by crossing over to the other side, etc. Let's work on collectively changing the attitude here.

In terms of mechanical punishment, we're already punished for dying in PvM, and shouldn't be punished for dying in PvP.

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Just lurking about!

Or with the consent of all involved parties. And yes, you can't scry for a Body.

Just last week one of my characters died for the first time in a long time (excluding the three months I was away), I don't think I RP'd it as well as I could of at the time, but I did RP confusion and some other things, after turning up raised to full health in a completely different place to where he died and the one who helped him out got something in return, then being told where his body was actually found.

He doesn't take death lightly and thinks that no material item or amount of gold could ever be worth a single life, but offered what he did as he couldn't simply leave it at that for his life being saved, also wanting to contribute more but didn't really have much else (or so he believed) that could contribute in helping the one who raised him, so left a donation that he thought would not only improve the ones living who saved him but also the others in the same church/area who inhabit that location.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

Hah, yes. I mean, I have a couple of jaded characters that can shrug it off, but it still hurts. My barbarian is typically pissed to high heaven when he's brought back. My drow goes down the anger-scale as well. Salema, freaked out depending on circumstances. Another char is iffy but, then, they like pain hah. And another rolls over like he's waking up from a nap, wounds and all. But, well... he's completely off his rocker.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Is this considered abusing the tool or is it totally fair game to spam it? I've PPed dead targets once each, but I figured it would be over the top to spam it. I thought there was a rule on the tool that you can only PP someone once every 5 minutes, or did I misread something?

Its almost funny, no not funny nor even close to almost how this all seems be directed at the poor loser's who whine about loosing, Calling them wusses and whiners is getting old fast. Responsibilities fall on both parties involved to rp sensibly and properly. Certain people seem to have it their head that its always the fault of who ever is on the loosing side of the sword that people get frustrated, angry and don't accept the threats and consequences of conflict rp but the fact is that the "winners" just as often are at serious fault with poor rp reasons for conflict, repetitive constant pvp and justifying it all with flimsy rp excuses that hold just enough water that they don't break the rules.

You want to blame the death system? You want to blame the losers for being pissed off some level 30 pvp Monkey gave them the option of die now or die in a torture chamber and called that an "out?" or how about when they troll around some place as an with undead, capturing slaves ect.. and your only "out" is to violate your alignment ethics and entire character concept.

Poor winners are just as bad if not worse then sore losers and people are absolutely justified at being pissed off when others start pvp and do things like transition hop and abuse other game mechanics and use pvp as a poor substitute for RP. In the heat of the moment you don't always have the time for screen-shots and afterward it boils down to "he" said "she" said.

Harsher death penalties aren't going to make it better they are just going to make players who get forced into bad pvp leave the server. They aren't going to make it any less frustrating when some guy/s put you in a situation where your option is PVP or utterly compromise your RP. Stop blaming the victims of the horrible pvp situations forced on them by calling them wussies because they get frustrated at the stupid barely justified pvp that they get force fed by pvp built trolls. I don't care if this topic gets locked of closed because I'm sick and tired of jerk ass winners acting like its everyone's fault but their own.

You want to punish people don't punish the victims punish the people who pull the stupid crap that start the stupid pvp crap and then kiss DMs asses and hide behind rules to get away with basically forcing people into loose loose fights then claiming its "RP". The reason "losers" rage quiet and "Whine" is because in most cases its damn well justified because of the garbage heaped on them.

In addendum to Ravenovf's Statement:

I come here ot relax and have fun. If I wanted to engage in PvP other than in the most RP appropriate of circumstances, I have other outlets. Battlefield 3 and other similar games come to mind.

If I engage in PvP here, I am doing it because there is a solid reason for my character doing so and the situation being forced as it is. I know I have erred and tried to apologize when I did err, but at the same time , I also damn well strive to have good cause, even if it has had IC consequences.

If the same, continous cycle happens day in and day out? I don't blame people for being as some call 'Whiny' and frustrated.

Frustrtion, honestly seems to be happening on both sides of the coin. What remains to be determined is if an environment can be compatibly created where we get what we need. Fun.

There is already a penalty for death in pvp, you've been removed from the (RP) situation. Any other penalties are up to the DM's or the RPers involved. If you want to enact some meaningful change to the person you've just murdered, you have to work with them to establish a narrative for the conflict. You have to be willing to create story. If you're not willing to RP with each other to get to this end, well, we've got a problem since it's an RP server, RP is kind of the point.

If there is a mechanical penalty, some people will go out of their way to inflict it on others. It will be abused for griefing and then post rationalized as "RP" to get around the rule of no "pointless pvp." I've seen it happen here in Amia before, without the penalties in the past. Give people a mechanical reason to do it, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts you see more of it.

Long and short of it, you can't trust all the players to "not be a dick." I'd rather trust the players to police themselves and create their own stories off of death then to codify it with more mechanics.

Now on streamlining the rules, I'm all for that. I wouldn't mind going down to "Have RP reasons" and "Set to Hostile" more or less with LetumLux said.

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When people talk about death, do they mean the act of having your hit points reduced below zero? Or do they mean having to respawn?


My rules:
1. If you intend to capture/ fight/ kill/ slap anyone. Hostile them immediately.

2. If you hit/ cast something impairing/ trap without them being red. Day ban.

3. Fight in a city/metagame guards. Day ban.

Rules done.
If you want to be courteous or cover your bases, send a tell saying you hostiled them and then screenshot it.

Seeing some one red walking up to you is your out. Hostility is easily seen and understood with body language and tone, etc. If you want to bullshit and say you're a master of disguise and social situations, you better start rolling Bluff.

If you don't want to fight then you have to come up with a solution. Get them to backdown, run away, or stay in a city.


How it works:
You are Paladin Jim. Cyricist Tom killed you wife two months ago and although you are not actively hunting him down at the moment, you still want to bring him to justice.
When you log in, you check if Tom is on the list, if he is, click hostile. Then you can go in game and you're golden if anything comes of it. If nothing does, then nothing does.

You are Cyricist Tom. You killed Paladin Jim's wife two months ago because she spit on your sweet, new Black Sun nikes. After you killed her there was no beef and you went on your way.
When you log in you can just go in game unless you have an assassination target or some other enemy on your radar. If you get information that Jim plans to kill you, and you want to prevent that, then you have to hostile him.

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THREE

Are we still talking about the death penalties?

How did penalty-less death become the norm? I mean SERIOUSLY who thought that making DEATH meaningless was a good idea? (It is meaningless in the current system, literally your character shouldn't give a fuck about death because they will come back no matter what. That's the cut-n-dry truth) We can see the problems that come up from it, take for instance the post a couple weeks ago where "Mister/Miss Pink" was ICly talking about the amia death dilemma and a huge majority of the staff and players got upset at how little they seemed to care about death. I personally think that his/her RP was entirely justified, death doesn't mean anything here. As a result why should my character care? People cite the problems that would come up if we allowed death to mean something but I see problems with us not allowing it too. We take one of the biggest components of life (Death) and remove it, of course there's going to be problems!

Death has no weight here, no gravity. Coming from a RP background where there was a system in place that read "In a fight if you are killed 3 times consecutively you are DEAD" I ultimately ended up killing only 4 characters total in 5 years and lost 2. Those deaths spurred on cascading roleplays and added a nice flavor to the setting. You had to be smart with what you did where you did it and who you were around because death was always 3 IG kills away.

"I'll lose my progress, isn't that unfair to me?"

Yeah well there are plenty of ways to AVOID pvp. There are even flat out no-pvp zones on the server. I think the better question is why did anyone think their progress couldn't be lost? Who plays a DnD campaign and says "Yo DM my character... Can't die, so uh yeah, no matter what I keep my work" A DM would laugh at you. If you dive into a kobold lair where they have their pointy swords and traps primed that's a legitimate risk your character takes, he could die.. This is also a parallel for say storming a Banite castle. Save for odd examples most people willingly chose to put themselves in these dangerous situations, and that's cool awesome keep it up go be dungeon crawler Joe and Evil slaying hero Danny, but know that this might be the last adventure you take. (Such realities if they were in place would seriously put some gravity behind decisions to storm fortified locations, or any sort of imminent PvP situation)

If loss of progress is still an issue we could also reimburse people for their loss.. Say a new PC 5 levels lower than the one that died as recompense.

How can there be any sort of conflict resolution if there are no final ends for characters? (hopefully the driving force in conflicts)

"PvP is unfair"

PvP is flawed, that's why I think safety nets need to exist. 3 deaths versus 1 is a start, how about if within the same reset you can have a friend raise you with a scroll to incrue no penalties towards your "3 death count" This would also work to the benefit of putting people together for dangerous events. Six is a far more safe group than One after all, as it should be.

Lack of death ultimately leads to stagnation because things that should've ended drag on and on. Atop that events that we understand as important become less and less so.

TL;DR PvP would happen less if it meant more. Death is a pillar of roleplay that adds excitement and FEAR where currently there's none, as Needled said, PvP, PvM they all lack that danger which really detracts from the experience.

Palin, I disagree wholehartedly.

There are players I wager who if Death were to meant more would PvP even MORESO to try to get their point across.

You contend otherwise? How long have you played on here? On NWN in general?

Most people here now are less likely to be the sort who'd take advantage of that, but I am sorry there is too much risk for too little reward.

What? There should be risk. If you go out of town into "No man's land" where the law cannot protect you that's your character's choice. They could just as well stick to cart systems and towns and never be in harm's way.

If a character makes a DANGEROUS decision it should indeed be dangerous.

I've played NWN for the better part of 5 years now, not that it matters.

Though I do not necessarily agree that PvP will happen less, death should be an immersed issue in the setting we exist in; there is danger in the world.



This is to be expected of permadeath in any setting.

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Melsa

There are horrors beyond life's edge that we do not suspect,
and once in a while, man's evil prying calls them just within our range.

You are dead when your hit points fall to -10 or below, so that's what I mean. I would assume everyone else means the same thing.

To clarify, in case anyone is unaware: When you hit -10 HP or less you are dead (unless it's PvP and they say otherwise). You are dead. You are not knocked out. You are not sleeping. You are not unconscious. All life signs have ceased to function. That is why you need to be raised with a Raise Dead scroll or a spell.

I only added that because I have witnessed people in parties fob it off as being unconscious (I've seen some jokingly say 'wake up' and such, that's different). It really grinds my gears.


I remember you saying that before, and how does that work? Was it a total of three deaths over the life of the character? Was it PvE and PvP combined?

Perma due to PvE is meh, in my opinion. It takes some of the fun out because mistakes happen. Perma via DM makes complete sense, and even perma via PvP (within reason) makes sense because shit happens.

I think, for the most part, PvE deaths can be made meaningful by the players and PvP would need some coaxing from external factors. Really, everyone should just freaking RP it properly and stop being bitches, but I know that's a pipe dream lol


Suhjet:
(also, saved it to my list)

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

People should RP realistically.. And realistically death means nothing right now.

As for the 3 death system it was done on the spot you fought until someone ran or died 3 times. (Once combat was over the 3 death system resets to 0) In NWN it would most like need to be modified, but that's the beauty of having craftable rules.

Agreed, but through RP you can make death meaningful. My point is we shouldn't have to force it to be meaningful on an OOC level that translates to IC, we should inherently treat death with meaning IC. Hence, pipe dream.

Also, where was that rule from then? I figured it was a NWN server you were on haha. I'm still curious, though, what if the person didn't get revived? Could the winner declare it over and walk away?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I think the difference is, the server you're idolizing as an example is a PVP - RP server ( based by the rules on character death, you need to actively PVP to prevent from losing your character ) this is a RP server (At least that's what it states, even in the pvp rules). The danger and its repercussions are in the story, not so much the mechanics.

Death and loss is cool, actions should have consequences. However, loss because someone decides "I think I'm going to off Palin's character today because he insulted me on the forums, how can I RP justify this"... eh, not so much. (Really, this sort of stuff happens... a -lot-)

If a DM wants to off my character or RP dictates that my character should be dead, then so be it. Loss because of random acts of asshattery, eh, not so much. I agree that loss should be RP'd, but that should be determined by story, not some "For the next 3 hours you're at -3 con or -1 effective level" or some such.

Some of us play here for the story, not to see who can kill off whom. Personally, I've got EvE for that. (And the random acts of asshattery. I love that game)

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Death should matter regardless of how you RP. Perma death forces death to matter, as it should. No one is being forced to die either, they can as said before never leave town and never be in danger. No one is forcing your character to be a hero that stands up against the odds and risks his/her life for others.. But if that's who your character is then you must accept that your decisions really do put your life in jeopardy. It enhances the experience when you see Lvl 30 paladin of Torm standing up to protect a village because it's the right thing to do, the others might run but this guy doesn't and I'm sure his RP will be significantly influential because of the actual risk he took.

It wasn't NWN it was a different game medium, which is again why I think such a rule would need to be retrofitted to work here. As for the victor at 3 deaths it was their DECISION what they did, it could just be they tie you up for a chat or they could chop off your arm or just put you in a ditch.

Erroch: If that stuff happens and people like that exist they need to be found and consequently smacked by DMs regardless of the rules. And death is a part of a story, it's the last chapter in one character's story and a milestone in someone elses. Death isn't bad.

Death is part of roleplay.

I'm an advocate of three rules.

1) Do not grief / Have a legitimate reason for PVP.
2) Set hostile.
3) Offer an out of PVP, not roleplay. I.e. if you don't want to do PVP but your opponent wishes to interrogate you then, well, roll with the punches and prepare for a night of torture!

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Really the only thing I care about is decency on an OOC level. If there's rules, follow them. Give me an alternative to PvP and I'm happy. Your character can be whatever evil dick they want IC, just be nice OOC. And if I lose, big deal. It sucks but oh well. My character, on the other hand, well that's different lol.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Well I doubt mechanical perma death is -ever- going to be on the books here, hell some of the DM's had to put an explicit "You can die on my plots" notice up (that, frankly, blew my mind.)

I don't think anyone's saying death shouldn't matter. Death having an automatic mechanical penalty is more of what's in question.

Any other death penalty other then permanent death is transient and doesn't really matter much other then an inconvenience that either a.) is time based and ignored by those with alts, or b.) is xp/gold based is ignored by those with time to grind gold/xp, or ignored by a level 30 who hands off all their gold before conflicts, or c.) gear based, but I doubt that'll ever be in the books either.

As far as the people dragging OOC into IC under a veil of RP, catching them means a DM has the job of validating someone else's RP as a DM. Sadly, you can never actually prove this unless that person admits to it or you get some chat logs admitting the same. (This is also one of the reasons why I will -never- DM again on any server)

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What about adding an XP penalty to death? There's no difference between dying against a spawn in the Fire Giant lair or dying against a group of baddies in the frontier, the end result is that you still die. You want to use respawn? That'll be X amount of XP (Limited? Not limited?). Alternatively, you can lay there, and wait for someone or wait for server reset.

Personally, X amount of rounds or turns with -2 to all abilities for an hour (10 min, in game) is a good penalty since your characters body would have gone through a -lot- after dying and then suddenly 'waking up' again, it would be overwhelming. Physically and mentally.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

I do also think that OOC manners are important, it'd reduce potential tension on an OOC level. You don't even have to like/be friends with another player, but it doesn't hurt to hold a neutrality toward any player when/if you have to interact in any shape or form OOC'ly, regardless of any kind of grudges or badly taken IC events.

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Ael'thil Rilyn'tlithar
Previously known as: Anubis

It always come down to these circular discussions. As I said: a compromise won't satisfy anyone. Nominal penalties are meaningless, steep punishments leave a sour taste in your mouth, and people seem to think leaving your character out of commission for a few days is unreasonable. An XP or gold penalty is nothing but an annoyance (though I won't object to someone robbing my body IC), and anything less than a 24-hour cooldown is a joke. It won't achieve the things you want to achieve, it's just a cosmetic change to make you feel better.

I find it disturbing that people are so concerned about how to make other players fear death and treat it with respect. You should think about what's fun for you. Dying in PvP shouldn't be thought of as a punishment, it should be as exciting as winning. And victory is nothing without the potential of losing. Any real change should give you an adrenaline fix. If you're not genuinely worried about your character, it's all very shallow. The uncertainty of when (if ever) you can get up again after losing a fight makes the whole experience more rewarding. I've played on servers where I've had to run from an angry mob or my adventuring party who turned on me at a demon's request (the latter of which resulted in the PC's permadeath), and I was genuinely terrified. My pulse was up and my hands were shaking. That's the kind of powerful RP experience we should strive for. It doesn't have to be permadeath, but a real risk and a real uncertainty are required. "Oh damn, I lost XP/gold worth of three hours of grinding" is not my idea of epic and memorable.

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In agreement with IronAngel here that consequences would really add to the flavor. The reason I vouch for Perma-death is that while such would only occur in tense PvP/PvM(debatable)/DM events the mere existence of permadeath would permeate into all roleplay. Every character would be aware of how fragile they really are and they would play accordingly or test the limits in a blaze of glory. (Think of the age old candle example, a candle that burns bright goes out quickly but lives vibrantly, one that burns steady lasts longer etc.)

Both of those characters would exist and be enhanced by the existence and threat of Permadeath even if they never die or come into direct contact with it. All decisions that consider life will be given more value, the weight of life and death would be something we have to actually ask the characters we play. It would add some adrenaline to the PvP situations as Iron said and conversely rectify the massive problem that is immortality and all the bad eggs that come with it.

What about changing it so that you can lose levels through XP penalties from dying. There's a risk - losing your skill dumps and/or feat selection. Or if players tried to abuse that system, have a 5-10(?) minute waiting period before you can actually respawn on-the-spot. Have a little message in your combat log stating X time until you can respawn in your current location. That gives far more than enough time for the winning team to determine the state of your character to be dead or unconscious. There will never be a feeling of 'win' when you've just lost against a more powerful build or a bad roll of the dice, so there is no point in saying that there should be.

If players abused the deleveling in other ways. Ban, of course.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

At that point it's more an inconvenience than an actually legitimate penalty. As for discontent at "power building and bad rolls" Those are demons we accepted when we decided to use NWN as a medium instead of forum based RP.

A penalty is meant to be an inconvenience. No one looks at a penalty and goes "Wow, that's really handy!"

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

The point is that XP loss isn't a big enough detriment.

I disagree with this completely. I, myself, was a victim of this very thing. It amounted to "Get captured so we can kill you ritually inside our secret hideout or fight your level 10 ass out of the middle of eight level 30s.."

If there is a reason why someone would be captured and they keep using the IC out to get away, the easiest method to use is grab a DM to oversee it. Then they can't use their outs to remain free. This caters to the roleplayers and protects people from idiots who just want to grief over PvP.

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Remember when I knew a boxer, baby

That's a result of griefing and unreasonable players though. The PvP protocol is in place to provide people a means of avoiding mechanical PvP as it may not be something they can effectively do, whether it be because of building choices or a slow computer.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

We have a system currently that promotes death as a meaningless repetitive temporary state, both on a mechanical and roleplay level. With meaningless death pvp encounters really do not matter outside of exceptional cases, and we have successfully created a style that to me seems very much like an arena server, while doing it's best to shield those who are sick of it.

This affects the server in two possible ways, and both have happened. The first is that pvp in general occurs just as often, however the meaningful variety reduces in number. Often people who try to play consequences get responded to with exhasperation, as if they were trying to seek attention for being purposefully dramatic. The other possibility is completly different. People get tired that there is no meaningful conflict rp and seek it elsewhere. PvP drops because of it but boredom takes over as only social roleplay remains outside of the dm plots.

Perhaps we simply have to think outside the box for this, instead of waiting until this discussion like all before fails and we simply close it with "it is up to individual players to make a difference". That does not work.

Clearly there are enough people who do not want consequences for valid reasons (such as players taking advantage of them) that we should not just force such a system on everyone, and there are enough people who want consequences for valid reason (for example that pvp gains meaning) that alternatives to the current system should be explored.

One idea I have is that we add the "contested" marker. During important conflict encounters, such as a dm moderated event or if one faction seeks to claim a neutral territory and another tries to prevent that, the area in which it takes place is marked as "contested". Any PvP that takes place in that area is now "exceptional", meaning that characters who die suffer mechanical consequences. These mechanical consequences could look like my previous suggestion. Of course it would need to be adjusted to the "contested marker" concept.

We didn't create anything. Player attitude did all of this. No one wants to be the first to give meaning to a death, because they believe (typically rightfully, too) thta their opponents will not give them the same courtesy.

No change to a PvP or PvM death system will fix the pervasive, negative attitude that surrounds the idea of giving another person ontrol over your character to a small degree because they killed you.



This IS the solution, unfortunately.

Also three weeks IRL is fucking obnoxious for arbitrary numbers. I understand a lot of you are about to jump down my throat considering what I just typed, but meaning from death does not come from an arbitrary number that I get healed with a potion in my inventory or a dollo p of gold from a cleric. It comes from the roleplay. And to do that you need to fix a server culture that won't fix itself because both sides are too busy being pissed at each other to ever want to take the first step. I'v been saying this for years.

P.S. You can never ever ever make level loss a penalty b/c it allows crazy fucked up things w/ builds. There's no reason to open the loophole for 0 gain.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham