Question 1: What is the RP justification of using 1 level of Bard/Rogue/Monk to get 30 tumble/UMD. It seems impossible for someone to only have the skills for a level 1 "class" yet be as good as a master in said class.

Question 2: Has any real discussion been put into changing the skill system to mimic what some other servers do. Meaning preventing characters from saving skill points to dump them into a skill dump class. (I myself have not played on other servers, but this was mentioned by others who have)

Question 3: Is it possible to cap a skill based on the level of a class.

Example: Only 1 level of bard can't have 30 tumble for instance.

Not meaning to cause problems, but I am curious how people justify this, other then just maxing out builds/powergaming.

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Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom

There isn't any. Well, not any that isn't paper-thin and subject to the utmost ridicule.



Not really, no. (To my knowledge.) Why would we do that?



With Glim and Pally at the helm, anything is possible. Just not probable.

Oh gods, can you imagine the amount of rebuilds that would have to be done?

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Currently playing:
Aven Brinyflask
Safaya Dalai
Riyit
Chsera Hile

(Credits to Raua for the sprite, sauce -here-.)

Contrary to the typical knee-jerk reaction to skill dumps, the fact that you need a skill dump class in order to not suck on this server actually serves as a balancing mechanic to keep possible functional permutations limited. There's nothing wrong with it, really.

I've occasionally taken a skill-dump level or two with my characters, and I have no problem with it at all, really. I don't think of it as an exploitation of a flaw in the system, but a legitimate workaround letting me bypass terrible game design choices.

In my opinion, there's really not much reason to have cross-class skills at all; in my perfect game system, skills would all be equally useful for and available to all classes. Telling my cleric/bard/AA that it's not legitimate for her to have dumped points into Spot on those AA levels is kind of obnoxious, I think. It's an assertion that you know better than I do what a cleric is, and that all clerics should be played within a certain set of parameters or else you're "doing it wrong." I entirely disagree. Why shouldn't a cleric of, say, Helm (god of guardians) be able to max out Spot? Or a cleric of Mask max out UMD? Or a cleric of Milil max out Perform?

I use cleric there only as one example. Another: telling me that my fighter shouldn't be allowed to max out Tumble basically amounts to telling me that Dex-based fighters aren't a legitimate character concept. Telling me that my wizard shouldn't be able to max out Discipline amounts to telling me that spellblades aren't a legitimate character concept. For my characters, those things shouldn't be for anyone but me to decide.

Getting all exercised over skill dump levels is, I think, basically just an extension of the tendency for us to tell each other "UR DOING IT WRONG!!" I disagree. The game's tolerance of skill dump levels is feature, not bug. It allows for more flexibility in character concept than we'd otherwise enjoy.

[edited for spelling...]

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

There are some 'legit reasons' to skill dump, also. For instance, some classes really ought to have a certain skill, but because Bioware, they don't and so you have to take some class that does provide them and save up those points for that level. Or because taking a Rogue level for a Tumble dump is supplementing some other defensive thing you'd take as a warrior that might be available to you if NWN had a broader range of D&D's options.

It's about if you find a way to rationalize it that makes it awkward or not, I think. If you don't even bother to figure out how and why for your character's case, then I think it's a bit weird that they just produced skill ranks out of a vacuum. But finding a way to justify it is part of the RP< and like Liz mentioned, a way to work around the limitations of what NWN provides us that isn't abusive, even if it can be strange at first glance.

1. Skills aren't restricted to a single class. You can cross class them if they don't require training. Having maxed out skill points doesn't mean you're equal to the master of the class.

2. This is a heavy nerf to strength characters and there isn't really a reason for it. Strength warriors (base damage, 6 feat nerfed to shit crit) will suck more ass compared to what dex (epic dodge, higher AC, invisiblity, sneak attacks, traps) and cha (divine favor, divine might, divine shield, smite) based warriors get. They would get shitted on by everything if this happened.

3. I don't know, but it is stupid because cross classing skills is already an option.

Here's what happens if skills do get capped:
-All casters become even more powerful (which they absolutely do not need to be)
-Casters can't get more than 16 discipline (doesn't matter because they don't get hit unless they're retarded)
-Bards and Paladins become relatively more powerful
-Rogues/dexterity fighters become relatively more powerful
-Strength based characters lose 3 AC and UMD
-Monks are still bad unless you are a disarm troll
-Everyone has to rebuild or there is a power discrepancy between pre change and post change characters.

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THREE

Liz, I think your response is an excellent reason why skill dump classes need to exist. I was surprised that I was convinced so quickly actually.

Would it kill everything balance wise if every class got every skill as a class skill? It would eliminate the need to have skill dumps, and I guess allow people like Liz to RP non-stereotypical skills that their character would be training in all their career. Again just curious.

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Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom

Yes, for many and varied reasons. One of which being prestige class entry requirements.

Oh guys, while we're preventing skill-dumps, let's move the maximum classes cap up to four. Oh wait, we're playin' NWN2 now guys!

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

Honestly I'm not trying to prevent it. I just realized that I didn't understand it from any point of view other then building. So I thought I would ask a few questions.

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Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom

Secondary question due to lazy: Are you limited to a certain number of classes in PnP?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Nope. I once made a character who had two levels of ten different classes (to avoid XP penalties). I leveled that shit from Rogue 1.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

Yeah the foundation of most non-caster powerbuilds in P&P come from dipping into a bunch of classes from various obscure supplementary books for neat special effects. It can be nice, sometimes. Especially when prestige classes don't count for multiclass penalties.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Ah, the good old Ranger/Fighter/Swashbuckler/Dervish/Tempest build. Such a thing of beauty.

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

*drools* Wat. Now i have to try pnp.

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Mark it zero!

I should mention that my 2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2/2 dude was terrible at everything but skills...

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

It isn't unreasonable to role play a character who has a class level specifically for a skill dump.

Imagine the levels you gain are fractionally set as a single tier of achievement within personal growth; however, your total level is your holistic power and potential. This is why AB and saves go up universally. As a character you are more potent, regardless of professions and feats.

That being said, it isn't unreasonable for a titan of a man - a hero, true to Greek tradition - learning and even mastering a skill or talent with some due practice. He is no longer "normal," so why do the rules of normalcy apply to him? Then again, why are we discussing things "making sense" when compared to reality at all considering we fight dragons and the undead daily?

At the end of the day, I think skill dumps make perfect sense - if you change your frame of reference first, and then acknowledge that people quite often adapt (rapidly) to circumstances by learning, even mastering new skills and abilities simply to survive.

Forgive my spelling and any typos - I am sending this from my phone in Pizza Hit right now.

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"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."

+1 Bard Level for this thread.

And 30 Tumble, 20 UMD, 33 Spellcraft and 33 Discipline.

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~Diana de Priondragas - Enigmatic druid, Arbiter, Counselor, Bear.
~Corinn Aldaine - Just a girl with a big heart... who can turn you into a newt.
~Vigdis Haldorsdottr - Walk softly and carry a big axe.

So, quoting this because it sums up a lot of the points quickly.


Agreed... The balance to casters is the rest timer, which isn't long enough. That's an entirely different subject however.

Also doesn't matter for melee mages that dip to their melee classes every few levels for their melee skills... sorta like that type of character is supposed to do (instead of the single level dip at the peak of power, avoiding all XP penalties, and gaining maximum benefit).

That is debatable... They would become relatively *more* as the classes around them shift but they do not. Making it a non-point for them.

They simply retain the same skills that currently everyone is allowed... but aren't really supposed to have. Also, we are talking about these build's keystone abilities (skills, in skill focused classes), which currently are shared with everyone and so makes them nonviable on their own.

Strength builds are always a problem... they are hard to make interesting, and harder to make 'balanced'. But somehow without one of them around a party falls on it's face. A lack of UMD would only mean they need a caster around (and so, creating PC interaction and limiting pocket wizards). And Tumble can be nearly maxed with only three levels of rogue (plus a few other nice things). If those three points are *that* important, sacrifice the extra two levels.
Too me it sounds easier to make STR builds unique somehow, rather then simply giving them access to other build strengths, and then giving everyone else the same to be fair.

Monks are still good at what they do, just like everyone else.

This is the real challenge.


It is a feature required to make DnD a single player game... which it was never intended or balanced to be. The biggest issue with skill point saving is that it entirely removes the purpose of skill focused classes (making them brief multi-class options at best, for a specific ability or PrC pre-req). It also homogenizes the builds (someone else called it a balancing mechanic to keep possible functional permutations limited, so I suppose that can be interpreted different ways, but I don't know why we would want to limit the functional permutations), and essentially makes those skill dumps simply STANDARD to be competitive. But as it is a feature to enable single player, considering a limit of it for multiplayer is entirely reasonable I think.



In PnP those exceptions would simply be allowed, and/or one of the million PrC's would fill in the blank. The limitations of the engine prohibit that... but throwing the doors wide open is not the answer. Back before we had PrC's we would take a second class to simulate that (you can still skill dump all your level skill points into one skill). In general though the only response is that DnD is a class based system, and removing the limitations of those classes destroys the whole thing. If any character can learn any skill, at full ability, why can't they learn some other ability? Like clerics learning arcane spells, or mages turning undead... or warriors spontaneously casting true strike. The classes are limited the way they are because that is how the entire system is created.


After all of that though, the one change I would like to see happen is the limit of tumble AC bonuses... which were added by Bioware in the first place exactly to make single player easier, and are abused by everyone and their brother. The skill dump itself can remain (and the inherent immunity to AoO's), but the AC bonus should be limited to the relevant class level (like the save and AC bonuses in other classes), and/or to the armor max dex bonus. Or it should only apply to AoO's, or be shifted to a reflex bonus. The only other skill that gives such a bonus is spellcraft... And that bonus is also made up by Bioware! But it only applies to spells, rather then every single attack. The spellcraft bonus is another thing, but less widespread.

As far as I can figure out there is simply no RP explanation of dedicating your entire career to one type of mastery... then at the peak of such a career becoming a second master in another skill that has never been mentioned, RPed, or practiced once, and will likely never see any use beyond the mechanical character sheet. Or do you guys really think your 8 Dex Pale-Master/Dragon-Disciple is actually suddenly doing acrobatics around your foes in full plate with a six foot greatsword? And enough acrobatics to account for 6 AC points at that. Or suddenly stumble upon all of the trial and error experience with magic triggers it took a rogue 30 levels to obtain?

We limit the amount of XP you can gain towards your next level because stacking it is abuse, why is stacking skill points for a greater end result (plus added avoidance of xp penalties) any different?

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I like gestalt Warblade/Eternal Blade/Invisible Blade // Duskblade/Swiftblade myself.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Anyone that says monks are bad needs to go home and rethink their life.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

haha yea...monks are nasty in the right hands, i remember some monk beating up the entire banite ganksquad back in the darthion days...fun stuff

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

You still (for the most part) only get class-specific feats from having the necessary levels of said class, so what if you're able to max out certain skills by taking only one level? If you're level 28 then you're allowed to dump your points where ever you want if you take another class. Only difference between this game and the second is you're forced to spend all but 5 skill points every time you level. But then, in the second they have able learner which allows you to cross-skill for 1 point rather than 2, but still not exceed the 1/2 max limit.

Either open up class skills for everyone or leave it how it is. You certainly do not want to go around fiddling with it to make it even more restrictive, especially since there's already so many established characters that have used such, unless you're willing to do a server-wide character wipe, which I'll admit would be interesting to see happen.

Also, buff kobold racials kthx.

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So, out of curiosity. What would be the effect of making all Skills effectively Class skills for everyone? No cross-class or restricted skills.

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Nhalis Sauvan - Flamboyantly Amusing Brasskin-Bard
Zal Marrak - Druid with a case of Shifter [inactive]

logical chars...that would be one effect..

no more paladin/rouges *Shudder*

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-Ja'acira Arrows'R'Us
-Balorin Wolfhammer- A dwarf so old he remember when the Beer stein was invented
Saisha Jai'diem Knight of bahamut, and abit of a looker

You don't want to do this because of skill reqs on prcs.

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Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds
Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham

Give me an example of why that's bad. Having trouble finding a good example of badness.

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Lance battle shifter of Red Knight
Lyle Underburrow...I would watch where you step when he's around, you might go boom

There is nothing wrong with a paladin/rogue. Some paladins might actually be pressured into such due to their deity (paladins of Hoar come to mind), or have learned the trade of the Rogue before being called (or accepting said call) into their deity's service.

Also - paladins are not knights. I know everyone and their mother who makes a paladin follows the "holy warrior with shining armor and plumed helmet with Sir in front of their name" trope, but that isn't a paladin. It's a common stereotype, and in my honest opinion, it's a stereotype that hurts the class image more than it helps it.

Oh, and if sneak attacks were evil or unlawful you wouldn't be able to make a Lawful Good Rogue.

At any rate, to prevent from derailing this topic too much:

I skill dumped in real life. I realized that I couldn't progress any further in my strength and speed without becoming more flexible, so I started taking yoga. I was already fit enough to go straight into the second to highest tier of difficulty course-wise, and in two months I'd gotten as flexible as I'd needed to for my performance needs. So I stopped taking yoga.

Am I a yoga-er? No. Can I profess to know enough to teach yoga? Sure can't. Did I gain one specific, fractional part of the whole of yoga and apply it to my prior skill and ability set to complete a picture my previous training didn't cover? Yep.

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"I will never refuse a challenge from an equal. I will give honor to worthy enemies, and contempt to the rest."

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What could be nice though is that players who choose not to multiclass to any of the tumble dump classes at all could gain some other benefits instead. Wouldn't have to be anything OP, just something to encourage players to try more creative builds and so on.

That's how for example Bastions of War solved things to increase the potential build amount without having the players feel that they are gimping themselves.


Could be anything from item restrictions that umd won't help you use, or perhaps some buff in other areas. I guess the item thing is the easiet part to implent.

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Main Characters: Rosalind Karpovsky

We are the worst. Buffs plz.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

Wanna buy some death sticks?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Wrong universe noob.

I wish we were Jedi, that would be sweet.

I paid a high price for being able to do what I do, and that price is 0 Use Magical Device, bros. It wouldn't be that big of a deal, but practically every single other person on the server has it. haha

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

I thought I was making that sacrifice with the monk I'm poking around with...then remembered assassins get UMD >.>

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Sir Taelar Ardelyn of Wiltun
Winner of the Razor Tongued Award 2015!

Kira "Penny" Sigers
Better than Boulderdash!

As a monk, not multiclassing is hardly a sacrifice. Boots of Sun Soul are monk use only and mostly everything else doesn't require any UMD, minus scrolls (which can be replaced by epic loot anyways for the most part), so I mean, it's not really a big sacrifice (or any, if you bossfarm for a week or two), if you intend on getting halfway decent gear.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Some of us couldn't epicbossfarm our way out of a paper bag though, like this guy! lol


That said, I don't really have issue with skill dumping (I did skill dump tumble, UMD and Spot but I also took more than one level in all my classes) provided RPwise there is some justification for it. Having a character, for example, with UMD dumped but RPing them as someone who abhors magic and would never touch a magic device, would be something I would frown against. Having someone with tumble dumped because they had a childhood love of dancing and acrobatics that carried on to a lesser extent into adulthood, is more plausible.

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Sir Taelar Ardelyn of Wiltun
Winner of the Razor Tongued Award 2015!

Kira "Penny" Sigers
Better than Boulderdash!

Eh... if it was no longer allowed I would think the whole server would need a lot of changes. To my knowledge it is scaled and balanced for skill dumps, because if you don't skill dump there is a very good reason and still benefit. So I would think a lot of things would be to tough. Or at least much harder.

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Lieutenant Belalad Feiwallyan

((Please take note if you PM me and you are ignored resend to me in 1-3days, it is likely due to not realizing I got mail))

People start doing that for whatever benefit (not sure how, mechanically) is given to replace UMD/Tumble, balance goes nuts. Now instead of a ton of builds that have 1-3 rogue on the server, because the lack of UMD and Tumble -always- hurts, you get a ton of builds with 4 Fighter, 5 KC, x Monk or even 6 SD.

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Mark it zero!

I will say, I think the current fact that you pretty much need a tumble class to get decent AC is retarded. I think it would be nice is if it was a class skill for everyone. That being said, it would change the balance of the game to make some impossible builds possible, and thus, it's not really viable, unfortunately.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

There's really nothing major wrong with the game balance, and no reason to mess around with it just because of some arbitrary and subjective ideas of what is cool building.

People should think less about classes and more about holistic builds, anyway. Taking a tumble dump level doesn't mean you're a rookie thief and a veteran soldier, it means you're an agile warrior who has made a serious investment into ducking and rolling around the battlefield. Just because you dump those skill points on a single level doesn't mean your actual IC training happens like that. Life and learning isn't compartmentalized into character classes.

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My god... You've managed to put to words what I never could! Yes, it is absolutely about the end product as a whole being able to accurately represent the character you've conceived and their capabilities, rather than the arbitrary idea of 'justification' for each and every choice made.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

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Except that each level of experience DOES show a step of that characters progression. That is exactly what a level based system is. They may, ICly, be a nimble warrior rather then a veteran warrior and a novice thief, even if mechanically the game thinks differenltly; But twinking your build to skilldump for max ability means your single level of rogue gains more then a single level of rogue elsewhere in the build. And why did your nimble fighter wait until the peak of his skill to learn how to successfully roll and tumble around the battlefield anyways? Because mechanically that's exactly what happened with the 6 AC and 30 skillpoint jump. And how are they doing so in full plate armor? How are they even a nimble warrior in full plate? And, just to point this out, you can be a nimble fighter (or spellcraft-y one, or a disciplined mage, etc.) without ANY skilldumps at all... that's exactly the idea behind cross class skills.

If all we care about is the final result, we should just start at max level. IMO the journey there is just as important though, if not more so, and your character sheet should be a reflection of that journey. *Especially* on a roleplay focused server.

I'll point out again that we do not allow people to stockpile XP... so why are the skillpoints earned from that XP acceptable to be stockpiled? Nothing else can be. And if skilldumps are the accepted norm, why do we even still have cross class skills (other then that it would take time to change that could possibly be better spent on other things)?

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Not that it's entirely relevant to the point, the clunky knight in full plate image is a historical -myth-. Modern martial arts and historical reenactment with period-accurate equipment has shown that tumbling and dextrous fighting is entirely possible in well-made armor. Combine that with the fantasy aspects of magical enhancement and light-weight materials, and the misconception becomes even more silly. People have proven that you can even swim (with difficulty, and assuming you're healthy and athletic) in steel full plate.

The prevalence and popularity of rebuilds and the fact that one will spend the vast majority of their time on any particular PC as a level 30 is enough to say that while that line of thinking is applicable to PnP, it isn't here.

The discussion on skill dumping itself is just ludicrous.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

Strapping 50 pounds of armor to yourself (and rarely if ever taking it off) IS going to slow you down, and the wearing of heavy armor in general is an entirely different type of combat then what the tumbling AC bonus is supposed to represent. Realism aside (and your also right, well made full armor does not slow one down as much as the myth suggests, not to mention magics and fantastic materials), the rules we play by include a max dexterity bonus on armor. If the armor impairs my ability to move freely enough to gain my full dexterity bonus, its ridiculous to allow a full bonus for tumbling around. Bioware added a poorly thought out 'perk' to a few skills that are so unbalanced, taking advantage of them is considered all but mandatory. I'm aware it isn't likely to change, but it does still grind at me a bit. Always has. I love my skill-monkies and NWN entirely gimps them.

I'd say the prevalence and popularity of new characters and Alts would also give a good argument for that line of thinking... But I do also see that most people just want to rush for max level. I just don't think that is the best answer however. My personal opinions of how characters should be made is just that though: personal. My only point in the skilldump discussion (which I do not consider ludicrous) is that there should be limit on the mechanical benefit a single level bestows. The monk AC bonus is limited by level, the paladin charisma based bonus is limited by level (both of which make sense and were made, I would guess, to rebalance an overpowered single level)... but the tumble and spellcraft bonuses (beyond what the skills themselves do) is unlimited? UMD is a harder case, as that is what the skill does, and I don't have a good suggestion either (other then limiting skill point carryover... which is impossible to implement). Though limiting the pocket wizard syndrome would only help foster teamwork.

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