I realize a fair number of people who play NWN have little to no experience with the greater D&D experience and their exposure to PnP (short for Pen and Paper) spells and abilities may be solely from characters using them IG, and this can often lead to misconceptions, depending on how they are used.

So, for their benefit and the benefit of similarly curious people new to the wonderful world of utilizing PnP spells, I bring you the super handy resource!




The d20 SRD isn't the only resource by any stretch, but it's a very handy and well-organized one with just about everything you'll need, especially if you're only just recently plunging into the world of PnP abilities. It has the most commonly used PnP spells on Amia (at least from my observations) and also discusses the nature of various abilities. I'd be willing to bet that almost every answer you might have on the matter can be found there.

In my own vocabulary, I've taken to referring to anything that isn't already provided and handled by NWN or Amia scripting as a PnP thing. I don't seem to be alone in this, although given some recent Request discussions, I realize it might be confusing at first glance.

With that in mind, this an important piece to the PnP conversation:
Source: viewtopic.php?p=918582#p918582 The Main Rules of Amia

This is also a reason I am bringing this up, because I fully encourage people to use PnP abilities and spells. I want them to know how they work, so they can know what to expect, or have more flexibility in their RP. For example, monks have the ability to leap great distances, but in NWN, no one can even jump a little. Knowing that monks can do this, I can then ask a DM to relocate me up onto a raised cliff area that was otherwise inaccessible to recover a slain person. They might say no for whatever reason, including simply being too busy to come move me around, but knowing that monks have the ability to do this allows me to justifiably ask at all in the first place.

I was recently discussing what certain spells do with someone and they were surprised by some details. For example, they had no idea that the popular 'hey let's meet up for some RP' spell Sending takes 10 minutes to cast. In harmless, casual circumstances this can be justifiably hand-waved, using it as tool to get a scene started - but this hand-waving seems to be the considered rule rather than the exception. For instance, it wouldn't be viable to use Sending in the midst of combat, and even attempting it would require the consent of all people involved, including (especially) the players of the enemy characters.

Another one that comes up a lot for Council and I, given our monks, is what Antimagic Field (which is what their Aura is based on) actually does or doesn't do. In the case of the Aura in particular, because of the limitations of NWN their Antimagic Aura dispels instead of merely suppresses, but Council's vision was that it in every other way is identical to the spell. They they were surprised to find out that a golem would continue to function inside of Antimagic. (This might have something to do with Mathus apparently blowing up a Shrine Guardian construct during a DM event, which isn't normal behavior for Antimagic and could have been the result of anything from an unfamiliarity with how Antimagic Field works, to the bizarre circumstances involving some kind of evil Druidic magic.)

A certain Gold Dragon Disciple was also convinced that her heart would stop inside of the Aura due to her richly magical bloodline, and while a totally fine IC belief to have about someone who makes you uncomfortable, it isn't the OOC truth - but IC perceptions can easily take over and cause things to happen that aren't actually appropriate. For instance, if Aaliyah had actually keeled over in Mathus' Aura from an antimagic heart attack, it would have been as a result of her own psychosomatic expectation, a rather horrific placebo effect, rather than the actual interaction between herself and the Aura. (Which also would have been hilarious to watch.)

I'm not saying that Zephyr did anything wrong here, and this particular situation just happened to be fresh in my mind from a scene with Mana the other day. I'm just using it as an example of how a player without experience with PnP abilities could have taken what her character said IC as OOC fact, thus forming their perception of how Antimagic Field functions - and that perception would have been inaccurate.

But there's a solution for that, and knowing where to look for the answers is the biggest part of it!

This also isn't meant to rib anyone's play style. It's simply about consistency, something that is a huge part of the game world of D&D. Things behave a certain way, and when or if they don't behave that way, we then have the basis of knowing that it's out of the ordinary. It's like the Laws of Nature, but for the game mechanics. But there is an expectation of how things function. Those of us who encourage the use of PnP abilities/spells/etc aren't looking to get an edge we don't expect anyone else to have - we want everyone to have access to the knowledge because we feel that it makes the gaming experience on Amia a more vibrant and nuanced one.

So please, if you have questions, if you are confused or uncertain, don't be afraid to ask. I'm pretty sure that everyone who goes out of their way to learn or utilize PnP stuff is happy to explain what's what so that more people can be included, and it's all fair and equal - and attaining that fairness relies on people knowing how a given ability does or does not work.

For the purposes of this particular thread, I'd ask that actual delving into the lore of various spells and abilities be made in a sister thread. For example, how the Sending spell actually manifests ("Is it audible to more than just the recipient? Do they have to reply aloud?") could take up its own entire thread. Some things do beg clarification, but what is of focus here in this thread is their stated function; things that are explicitly, plainly laid out without interpretation. Interpretation of various spells and abilities is great interest to me, I just don't want to send this particular thread spiraling off intended course. Just the cold, hard facts.

That's not lore, that's fluff. No player should ever begin the documentation or propagation of their own fluff on an OOC basis. It's already been demonstrated just how dangerous this is to player's knowledge and toxic to their creativity in the numerous threads on dragon disciples and no matter how many understand where the distinction is, there will always be one player who doesn't realize where the source book material ends and where extrapolation begins. As such, it is only for the best that it be left alone on the forums even if everyone's different interpretations are quite interesting to read through.

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feel the blood gushing from your anusfeel the blood gushing from your anus

I'm one of the players who have got absolutely zero experience with PnP.

All in all, I find it horribly confusing. I've seen a few players who like to list which PnP spells they can cast in their description. How did they learn those spells and what are the requirements to learn such spells were questions that immediately crossed my mind.

I will read the source you provided. Thank you.

The answer to that question is simple: those spells exist, in the game world but aren't present in the NWN engine. If a sorcerer wants to sacrifice say... Resistance in exchange for being able to cast the PnP spell Detect Magic, they'll write it down in their bio. That doesn't mean to say, however, that they can use the PnP spell without the OOC consent of all those involved.

I want to present a different opinion on NWN vs PNP. I play PNP, and I play NWN, they are so vastly different, that they can only somewhat be compared to each other. PNP offers so much more "tweaking" than NWN. If the rules of Amia state that we can't expect anyone to own or know anything about PNP D&D, why are we encouraging PNP spells and abilities that REQUIRE everyone around you to know and understand and ALLOW it to occur? I think it just makes things even more confusing. I would think if we keep is simple it would be easier and more fun for all involved, without the debates that I have seen about using PNP abilities. Essentially, if it's not in the world (either through NWN or our own designers and DM's) and cannot be utilized ingame, I don't think we should "fake" it. And yes, I understand roleplay, but, this can be cheesed way too easily and upset the balance of other abilities and spells, IMHO.

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What do you mean by 'tweaking'? I could take that a few different ways, so I want to make sure I'm doing so in the way you intended it.

For instance, the "rules" of PNP allow a DM to make special exceptions for their own reasons, purposes, etc. I don't have any issue with special requests and having these abilities added to a character, so long as the DM team approves it. To give everyone carte blanche to use PNP spells, in my opinion is not within that same set of parameters. There are some things omitted from NWN because they either upset the balance or overcomplicate a video game experience. Believe me, I don't mean to upset or annoy anyone, I just don't understand why we are complicating things.

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I might not be making my point clear.... An example of a real incident:

A group of 8 or 10 is standing around talking. Another PC walks up and in an OOC comment says "I am going to use PNP Detect Evil, if anyone wants to participate, send me a tell"

First, it's very immersion breaking to have that OOC comment during RP. Second, now everyone around:

A: Figure out what he is doing this justifying it with their own reasons for doing what I would consider metagaming.
B: Has to make a choice whether they want to go along or ignore this

Essentially, it's an unchecked ability. That player probably wouldn't get many responses anyway, but if they did, would it be from the evil ones in the group? This partial inclusion makes that particular usage ridiculous, it serves no good purpose.

Now, if the DM's could actually create and replace that spell with another spell or ability whatever the source, this can now be checked, and countered within the game environment, settling the balance issue? That is ideal.

Customization and diversity are two things I encourage, using your own deep knowlegde of PNP over someone who doesn't know it can only lead to problems. I know a little of the spells in PNP, but not much. I know enough to know that if someone started doing a bunch of PNP spells/abilities in a party I was with in NWN, I'd be lost, which I do believe is NOT the intent, but, it is a negative result of allowing PNP into NWN.

Sorry for the rant, just wanted to express my opinion .

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I disagree that there is carte blanche with PnP, but I think you and I have a different idea of what that means!

For me, carte blanche would be able to use any PnP ability/spell without permission of anyone else, like selecting the spells NWN provides. There's absolutely no moderation there, even in places where there theoretically should be, like a Cleric using spells NWN gives them access to that wouldn't be granted from their particular deity when they prayed for spells. That players can exercise their right to say no to PnP stuff is a moderating factor right off the bat. If the abilities/spells a character claims to have don't make sense, a DM could step in to arbitrate what is appropriate, or check in to see how a character attain x ability/spell in the first place. They can do this in my Cleric example, also, but only if that Cleric is 'caught' doing it. A lot of PnP-using people at least advertise what PnP stuff they intend to use.

There are a lot of spells that are awkward to use because they require a dynamic, responsive environment in a way that NWN simply can't be. It was really meant to be a linear, single-player/party progression overseen by the story provided. It's not that using Stone to Flesh on a wall would be unbalancing, necessarily, it's that the story provided to us never considered that in the design. It's not that using Scrying to peer in on another Area is overpowered, it's that it needs an arbiter to make it fair and NWN can't really pull that off because it lacks... well, being a thinking human DM.

Letumlux, I do get what you are saying, however, there are not DM's watching over every situation, and just the simple fact that using a PNP spell or ability within a group where some agree and some don't to it's usage makes the situation more complicated, does it not? I just don't see the point, but then, I am not a DM, nor a designer, so, take it as you will. The rules of Amia state we don't have to know PNP nor are we expected to, I think this goes directly against those rules. Just my point of view that is makes thing overcomplicated for very little positive result.

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I absolutely agree with this, however. I think that would be awesome. But it isn't necessary to achieve balance.

To your example: I won't touch on the immersion breaking aspect very much because everyone has their own level of tolerance for what they consider unacceptable or uncomfortable. Some people will be bothered, some won't.


It's well within the power of the non/participating players to ask the user of Detect Evil in kind, "What does it do?"
They can then say, "Sure. They don't detect my character as evil."
Or, "No, I don't consent to it" or even just "You detect no evil from them" because the result is ultimately the same.

They can also (and I would encourage them to) ask, "Well, what can I do to block that?"

It's the responsibility of the Detect Evil-user to provide them with the spell's description, and make sure the other player knows how it works. That player can then decide what is appropriate for their character to know about it. Perhaps they'll decline to be Detected that time because their undercover Evil character would know better than to walk around without a way to conceal their alignment, and go find their own PnP spell to counter. I think that's acceptable, personally - because the player didn't know they might be up against that kind of spell. There should never be any shaming about that.

They might also just go, "Oh, well, you got me! My character detects as Evil."

I think plenty of people would own up to being Evil if they caught without a defense against it, honestly.


I don't think that DMs need to be omnipresent for PnP to work. I'm one of those people who believes that players can moderate themselves if they choose to. It's completely within our capability to have a situation in which PnP stuff is used fairly for all involved without oversight by a DM. I know that there are people who will weasel about a situation to twist it unfairly to their advantage, also, but I've seen fair use of PnP to gain or counter and advantage; I've been in plenty of scenes where everyone involved was peachy, as long as they were informed. Being informed is part of the rules - not assuming they know, but providing them with the information and letting them decide if they want to participate in something unexpected or not. (And then not throwing a fit if any of the other players involved are uncomfortable with the use of the PnP and decline it.)

I'm curious, bidocks, and I don't mean this as an attack - I'm trying to understand your nuances about this: are you comfortable with the PnP effect that is technically IG in places like the Shrine of Eilistraee and the Oakmist Vale Grove? As far as I can tell, they're supposed to be Hallowed or Consecrated , or at least some version thereof. If you're not familiar with them, when you enter the Area there's a feedback message that "This area has been blessed and you cannot raise undead here" and if you're evil-aligned, it also says, "and you feel very uncomfortable here."

I don't think there's any scripts that enforce the part about being unable to raise undead, though. I've admittedly never tried, but I accept that it's how the "blessed" effect works.

This is a multi-part question, but my next question depends on your answer to this one!

Do you consider that an acceptable presence of PnP stuff?

They are part of the environment, and to be honest, I think any of my pc's have been in either place only on one occasion. I am comfortable with it because it is hard coded into the game and EVERYONE is expected to follow that rule. You can't simply say "I don't consent" and raise undead without consequences if caught.

According to your example, and getting back to immersion, if I didn't know anything about the ability that person was using, I would have to stop the RP to ask and learn how they feel the ability works. Herein lies the problem, the rules of P&P can be interpreted, twisted, and just like anything else, there are different opinions on how certain things work. One person's use of a spell may differ from another's, yet both can be legitimate interpretations. Yes, a DM can make that judgement call, but, I ask.... why introduce this level of complexity? NWN is a simplified ruleset of D&D, for many reasons, Bioware thought they should do it this way, and, because of some of the world limitations you suggested. It would be nearly impossible to fulfill every fact of what D&D could be within the NWN world, and I don't think we should try.


I will not argue with you, as I don't feel it serves any purpose. You know much more about NWN and D&D than I do, but, I still think adding one game's rules to another is a mistake. This is becoming much more argumentative than I care for. Overall, I think the viewpoints presented here are good food for thought for all involved, but, I will respectfully bow out so as not to escalate things any further. PNP abilities are and have been used, therefore they exist, my argument is a moot point.

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But... we're just... discussing...

(Originally a PM, copied here so the ideas can be shared)

I bowed out because I didn't care to let it devolve into an argument, which I think it may have. I have immense respect for those that put in their time for Amia, as you do, and I don't wish to attempt to break down your reasoning for anything publicly. While I may be the minority, I still feel NWN and D&D are not the same game, and trying to make them the same is an act of futility. Some people can moderate themselves, and some people will always have more knowledge than others. Those human flaws make player-moderated abilities difficult to use. Yes, it CAN be done, but, it's often inconvenient, immersion breaking, and takes away from the RP that was happening so all can be involved in one player's use of said ability.

Please understand, this is my opinion, and as it stands, Amia already allows these things to happen, so as I said, my point is moot.

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PM:

I'm sorry that it was getting argumentative for you, that wasn't my intended tone at all. I wasn't trying to belittle you publicly or make you into a scapegoat (I originally typed spacegoat. Thank you, little red underline spellchecker.) I am genuinely curious about your reasons for being uncomfortable with PnP in NWN, so I wanted to pose some questions to see where the shades of your tolerances are, and discuss them a bit. Of course I have some desire to 'convert' people to my way of thinking, but a discussion is about finding an equilibrium between your position and theirs, even if you don't ultimately end up agreeing with it any more than you did to start with (or even end up disagreeing with it even moreso, that's fine too!)

Because I don't understand your stance, I wanted to look at it from a few angles to figure out where you are comfortable with it, and where you aren't. This is partially just to know; I think it's neat understanding other people's perspectives. But also so that if I run into you IG, I already have some kind of rapport with you, I already have some familiarity with what you will or will not be okay with - so I don't even have to ask if you'll allow a Detect Evil, or example. I can just know from our previous conversations that you're disinclined, and I'll not even attempt it.

It's up to you, but I'd encourage keeping this an open conversation, too! I think it's really important for us players to realize we can and should moderate ourselves, and that all it really takes to do so is an openness and willingness to communicate about it. We don't even have to like each other, but being able to communicate in spite of that is what makes a place like Amia an actual gaming community, rather than just a bunch of players who step on each others toes, which is how it often feels like people view it. I think that can and should change, and open discussion to figure each other out, without hostility, is a way to do it. Just knowing what I do now about your opinions on PnP, I can hopefully avoid breaking your immersion or making your uncomfortable if we meet up IG, and I think that's a great thing.

Ok, well, glad to see there is no animosity, from either end . My whole stance is based on the idea that I don't need to or should be expected to know anything about PNP to play NWN. Why would we then overturn that rule, requiring the party using said ability to then educate anyone who asks? I mean, this is very OOC to me. Very against the rule in my opinion. While I can understand that the limitations of a game engine are just that, what I don't understand is why we need to complicate it? I've played on other servers that didn't allow any pnp outside abilities and there was never any issue nor complications.

The very fact that you would have to change your gameplay around me or others that are disinclined to PNP abilities proves my point further.... IF, however, those abilities were made rules of the server, equal usage for any who are qualified to use them, and EVERYONE had to comply, that is perfectly fine. Allowing me to go into books and find an obscure ability, then attempting to use it ingame, and educate everyone around me each time, only to be able to use it in one instance, but not another, to me, is overcomplication. Does that make sense?

In other words, use of "detect evil", if the DM's rules that you CAN use that ability and it is now a rule, that it can be done, and you must comply..... then, I have no issue with it's use. I guess I am saying the rules should apply equally, and at all times. Not just when a player or individual consents. That's what makes a rule work.

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To further clarify...... (hehe, my wife is looking at me like, wtf?), if any ability, PNP or otherwise is ratified by the DM team and made canon to Amia, with standardized rules for usage, etc., that works for me. The example of the grove: As it stands, I believe if someone was to raise undead in that area, there would be consequences, and the DM's would back up those consequences. However, if a player used a PNP ability, and another denied participation in it, even to the detriment of RP and whatever the first player was trying to do, the DM's can't back up any consequences, because, the ability was essentially nullified by the second player, yet, another in the same area could have consequences happen that don't apply to player 2. How would we explain that through roleplay? There's just too much gray area. However, a rule is a rule.

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Thanks for being willing to open this up again, bidocks.

Using the Consecrate / Hallow example, the source being either a DM thing (such as a scripted feedback message) or from a player casting it and letting people know about it is functionally no different, to me. I think that's ultimately the main point we're disagreeing on; the aspect of authority and integration behind it.

Part of the reason I'm really into encouraging PnP is because I feel like NWN wasn't really meant to be used in the capacity we use it on Amia. Sure, it provided a massive multiplayer option, but it's clear that the game itself was not designed for the kind of dynamic gaming world we have made out of it. PnP helps us to build upon and enliven the basic game, and now we have custom spells, weird lore, Ley energies, and other stuff. If Amia wasn't set in Forgotten Realms or any campaign setting where various spells and abilities exist that aren't represented by NWN, like if it was in its own stand alone bubble of "NWN, in which the only powers that exist in the lore are the ones provided" then I wouldn't have any issue. But to me, NWN as the foundation for a persistent world is missing pieces of the game world that PnP allows us to try and fill back in to make it an actual Realmsian game, rather than a linear story and dungeon crawl.

I feel like the other part of your dislike of PnP (other than to just keep things simple, which is fair!) is based on responsible use of it. There's a lot of mention of what if the other person doesn't play along, and how awkward that can be. For me, honestly think that if people are open to learning what a given ability does or doesn't do, and aren't just out to win no matter what (which is really it's own problem), then PnP can become a pretty seamless integration amongst players.

I don't see it as a bad thing that I would keep consideration of your views about PnP in mind, like opting to just not use Detect Evil if you're involved in the scene. It's on me to figure out why my character wouldn't, just like it is with any denial of a PnP ability/spell. I won't lie and say that it might not disappointment me to not be able to do it, but I think that being considerate is far more important than a fleeting moment of being denied. Being considerate is a part of what allows players who have characters who are mortal enemies to talk and laugh about their fights, instead of seethe over what an asshole the other player is - realizing that we're all here to have fun, and if what we're doing it actively making the other player not have fun, then we should reevaluate. I think it isn't much different from using other forms of PvP; I might have a terrible computer that makes it so that mechanical PvP (just attacking each other like we would monsters) means I'll die and lose every time because I can't tell what's going, and that just isn't fun. So instead, the player of the enemy could alter this style of fighting to a more emote-based method, where we can roll out dice manually, take it turn by turn. They don't have to do this, but I think it's the mark of a good player who is willing to compromise to try it out. It's also on the other player to not take advantage of it by cramming in a million actions into a single turn of combat, on the flip side. It's about fairness and consideration in that situation too, just like with PnP stuff.

... I'm being stolen to go eat pancakes, so I'm sorry if this ends abruptly! I'll try to clarify anything that needs it when I get back. Haha.

Okay, I think I know what was missing from that post to cinch it up. I can understand your dislike of having to take things OOC when IG to ask permission or spend time aside to discuss what a power actually does. This doesn't bother me, personally, but I can easily see how it is immersion breaking for many people and it's something I'd like to avoid whenever possible for aforementioned reasons of having a seamless, considerate environment.

That's kind of what the intention of this thread is about, so we can discuss these things that may come up outside of the heat of the RP moment. Nothing is being interrupted, and we can really get into specific spells and abilities, if people want. I might even post up a list of commonly used PnP spells along with their less commonly known counters, so that people who don't want to say no but still want to have an even playing field can have ready access to what they need to know.

Even though I obviously remain pro-PnP, I really, really appreciate you voicing your position on this, bidocks. The point isn't to dismiss or shame people who aren't 'on board' with PnP stuff, and I don't want people who would rather do without PnP to feel entirely excluded from this conversation. Your perspective is really helpful in figuring out how we can both play the way we like without stepping all over each other, even if we don't 'convert' each other one way or the other.

I'm generally willign to explain to the best of my ability any time someone wants to know about a PnP spell

Honestly, I kind of feel like it's fine where it is. I don't think people should have to know their PnP, but I think that if people intend to use it, then yes, I agree they should at least know what they're using. especially since a lot of amia doesn't follow the 3.5 handbooks anyways

That being said, I'm happy with the limited application that the d20srd spellbook has on Amian roleplay. I could go with less people trying to use ridiculously overpowered PnP spells as well, such as "Discern Location" then whining behind your back when you say no. I think that's largely lazy and offensive to the player who didn't want the "I win" button pushed on them for a very valid reason.

It's my belief and experience that most of the time someone is using a PnP spell like that, that they're just cutting out 99% of the RP they could have done, to get what they want.

I don't think it's wise to bring up yours (and CoA's) request in a general discussion thread seeing as how it circumvents the entire point of the "do not post policy" and because of that, I won't comment on it directly, but I do feel that attaching a PnP effect to any spell should be avoided at all costs as the cost far outweighs the benefit because it creates far more trouble that it's possibly worth.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I do support the inclusion of PnP stuff into NWN to create a a more interesting environment, but the fact that NWN is not PnP should never be forgotten. I don't think PnP spells should be used at all without a DM involved. Not because I think players cannot moderate themselves, but because the DMs can manage that so much better and easier. With a DM involved, your character can cast your detect evil spell, and the other parties can ask the DM there for clarification or specifics, and they can explain the rules relevant if needed. Without the DM, if anyone around involved doesn't know the specifics, the next ten minutes turn into an OOC conversation about all of that, and that's only if they speak up. If someone does not know the specifics, and doesn't feel bold enough to ask (new players to Amia, those with no experience with PnP, and/or people that don't follow the forums) they are getting the short end of the stick which could turn frustrating quickly. The impartial third party (the DM) at least makes sure everything is done by the rules agreed to, and does so from an established place of authority, even if everyone involved isn't 100% on the possible uses and counters of some PnP ability. And they can do most of it behind the scenes without interrupting an ongoing scene.

TL;DR : PnP abilities require a DM involved for PnP, and should for NWN as well.

If any PnP abilities are commonly accepted to be usable without a DM involved, there should be a detailed write up of them in the journals, so everyone has the same info.

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I don't think that Discern Location is overpowered, personally, since it's blocked by Mind Blank and that's readily available in potion form to more people than could conceivably even manage to cast Discern Location. If people don't know about that, it's another problem and that's one I'm hoping to amend by making the information readily accessible.

As far as I am aware, the "no specific incidents" policy is about airing dirty laundry or matters of contention that should be resolved in another matter, not that we're forbidden to reference events. Like when bidocks mentioned the situation with someone asking to use Detect Evil; we weren't bashing the people involved or crying out for anyone to be punished, but using it as a basis to explain concerns about the subject. It'd be kind of absurd if I couldn't talk about my own request. Haha.

Well, I guess that's where we differ opinions. Nobody walks around everywhere with a mind blank potion, and in my opinion it's an extremely cheap way to find out something you could have learned by actually role playing, therefore, to me, it's overpowered and not necessary. But that's why we have the option and choice to accept or decline it.

As far as "airing" laundry, I'm not airing any laundry. I'm just stating what I've seen happen in general when people refuse to consent to PnP spells. They get offended for god knows what reason. We're playing NWN, not PnP.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I don't see the role of the DM in that kind of situation as being exclusive to a DM, or that it would necessarily take any less time for a DM to answer questions about the ability being used than it would for a player. I don't mean that to undermine DM authority, mind, simply that what you describe could easily play out solely amongst players. The DM isn't necessary in that case, unless there is a dispute or it's a particularly bizarre situation involving the use of a spell in such a way that a DM interpretation would need to be made because there aren't clear rules on what might happen. And if the situation is that complex already, then I imagine a DM is probably the only one with the authority to sort it out whatever hair-brained scheme was presented. But that isn't exclusive to PnP spells or abilities.

I suppose part of my lack of agreement also stems from the acceptance of other things that sort of fall under the purview of 'PnP stuff' but aren't powers, abilities, or spells. Like climbing a tree. None of our characters can actually, by NWN mechanics, climb a tree. But somewhat could emote it, and roll dice if they liked, and maybe even use it in some kind of ambush attack! Now, I'm not sure of the 'legality' of all of this, but it seems reasonable that this situation could occur, and while it's unlikely to me, I guess it's possible that the other players involved might dismiss it, because it isn't 'actually happening' because there is no 'enforcement' of tree climbing ability. But from what I have observed myself of similar situations, people tend to just accept it and are pounced upon by some arboreal ambusher - or emote/roll their own stuff to evade it. The point being that, in my mind at least, it's about the same thing as if some mage was like, "Ahaa, I shall cast Levitate upon myself, and then pounce upon an unsuspecting victim... // Permission for PnP Spell?"

There are very different reactions to climbing a tree (which doesn't require permission as far as I am aware) or to asking for a PnP spell, even though both are effectively the same thing - doing something that NWN doesn't mechanically/actually/functionally let you do. I imagine that's part of the reason I'm often confused by people who are against PnP stuff.

I don't see how this example helps further your argument. Climbing a tree requires no source book knowledge that's not part of the game to nod or shake your head it just requires imagination. The d20srd requires not your imagination, but your interpretation of an entirely different game into the existing one.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Hey, some of my characters spend a great deal of gold to keep their minds warded for as many hours of the day as possible. It's not paranoia if they're actually out to get you, as they say, and who knows when they'll try!


I... didn't say that you were airing dirty laundry? I was actually saying that I wasn't, in response to you saying "I don't think it's wise to bring up yours (and CoA's) request in a general discussion thread seeing as how it circumvents the entire point of the "do not post policy" and because of that, I won't comment on it directly". If you have comments on it, feel free. I don't mind.


I disagree that it requires interpretation, because you're not interpreting anything (or at least, you really shouldn't be); you're reading what x spell is capable of, which is already spelled out for you in D&D legalese that in most cases should speak for itself. Usually everything you need to know about how that spell functions is provided right in the spell description, including counters, or links to other relevant information. The climbing example was just to relate how it's effectively the same type of 'action' in what we're performing something that isn't included in NWN and so we must request, silently or otherwise, that everyone else go along with it - and generally, I've found, people do.

You're right that most cased that I can readily think of in which someone would try to do something that is 'PnP' that doesn't actually involve a spell or ability, like climbing or swimming, or whatever, wouldn't require anyone to look anything up. Knowing about PnP spells and abilities does take some effort. Some people aren't interested, and that's fine. I'm mainly interested in having it accessible for those who are, and would restate to emphasize how important I think it is that it's the responsibility of the PnP-user to be forthright about what the ability does; and invite people to ask them about it if they don't know. That way it's equally informed, equally fair.

Usually, I don't allow months or years of RP to just dither when someone goes AFK for 10 minutes (if they even bother to do that) then asks me where I am, then they get a GPS signal on my head because I didn't chug potions every 9 turns. Obviously that's a drastic example, but you can see how invariably allowing it sometimes and denying it other times would just create a "WTF", so naturally I just decline it 100% of the time.



You just interpretted the spell we just talked about.



Notice how it doesn't mention a lesser mind blank, which is the potion? The d20srd actually links to the level 8 spell too. The spell you said protects against it isn't even the srd.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Yes, I suppose that is an interpretation, actually! You see, Lesser Mind Blank doesn't exist in PnP. There simply isn't a lesser version of it. In NWN, it's the difference between single target and every friendly within range. So you're right that I assumed that Lesser Mind Blank would also function as per PnP Mind Blank because it is in every way other than target and level, the same as NWN Mind Blank.

Personally, if someone accepted the use of a Discern Location I cast, but said it was blocked or failed because they had just Lesser Mind Blank up, I'd be cool with that. Haha.

In my opinion, a pnp spell is no more or less then taking any action that isn't enforced by the mechanical systems in NWN.

Yes they have some pretty far reaching effects but it is up to us to police them when not in a DM moderated system. This could be something as simple as Asura coming up behind Dominik and putting him in a choke hold. It's not covered by in game mechanics, it's not even covered in the SRD. However, we can, by working together, sort out how to handle it. (Hopefully without getting into the horridly convoluted grappling rules in 3.5)

This is the same for -any- non mechanical interaction, spells, prayers, abilities or otherwise. In the end, you can only effect a character in ways the player consents to anyway, might as well work with each other and come up with a good story.

On Discern Location... when things happen to a large group of diviners, one can expect that they're going to -try- to use divinations to sort it out. It doesn't have to work, but they've been used in game under DM supervision time and time again, to have the character not -attempt- to do so when DM's are already involved, would be a bit silly. The key thing in these situations, is for -all- parties involved to act with tact.

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Yeah.. it's kind of like if you play rock paper scissors, you can't lay down a shoot and then say well, I assumed we were playing with that too. Don't get me wrong, I'm very well versed on the aforementioned subjects, more obsessively than I need to be, but I don't trust other people to decide my character's fate with overpowered spells that don't directly even correlate to NWN 1:1 with.

On discern location: Usually scrying spells have saves. This one doesn't, therefore it breaks any plane of balance that I'm used to playing on. For the same reason when someone suggests casting it on an NPC to find out his location, I expect the DM to say it doesn't work, as when I say it doesn't work when someone casts it on me. It's a lazy way of beating around the bush and too often do people resort to these things rather than taking the time and RP to explore other options that would involve more than themself, and spell that's not even in the game.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Perhaps offering a point of note:

How is Discern truly unbalanced? A lack of Saving throw? It's a level 8 spell. Next to Level 9 and Epic spells, it's one of the most complex a Wizard can learn.

Look at spells such as the Power Word series: They too lack saves. Do you consider them unbalanced?

Where other scrying spells use Saving throws as balancing to lower their complexity, Discern a key condition (specifically having met the target before in the case of a person or being which I believe is the point of contention) or having touched the object (in the case of an object.)

ADDITIONALLY , there are two means of protection against it. Mind Blank (which has been discussed) and deific intercession.. an option availible not to everyone but it's plausible in the same vein of level where Discern Location gets involved.

It is a complex and powerful spell, yes but not one that can't be overcome. There are ways to do so , one of which are readily availible in the module.

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Now: What would be unbalanced is a spell that allowed you to rip out people's hearts from afar with but a sympathetic link, a Rabbit , a jagged edge'd spoon and an insane couple of worshippers.

It's not balanced because, unlike in PnP, you can rest 96 times in a day instead of once and swap your spells around as you please.
If discern location only worked on targets with less than 150 health, you may have an argument.

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THREE

Given that most people take less than 4 IRL days on a wizard to gain level 9 or even epic spell casting from level 0, I hardly see how its "complex" it was to learn. It's kind of a moot argument here.



The balance / save is that a creature needs to be below 100 current HP. That makes the spell suck more times than not. It's much more reliable to sustain that much more HP than it is to sustain a spell that isn't confirmed to even block a spell that's not part of the game that can be cast from anywhere on the entire map at any time by any player who doesn't even need to do anything other than send you a tell saying he did it.



Considering it has no save, and the target is largely unnoticed by the target, even if you had mind blank one time, with the lax rule system, infinite rest system, the zero RP requirement to actually cast the spell until it works, and the fact that it potentially circumvents months and months of RP, I'd say it's pretty overpowered. I never accept it, and I never expect my enemies to accept it. For PnP purposes, it kind of made sense, because it was usually just a few players and a DM in a campaign together, and nobody was plotting on different factions, different alignments at different areas simultaneously. Just like a DM ultimately would have to get me to accept a miracle or wish spell, so should they have to (though, I hope they never do) force me to put a GPS marker on my location without any save or even my knowledge or RP that directly involved me.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Climbing a tree also doesn't require any character to have learned, prepared, and actually used (as in counting towards their limited spells per day) anything but their hands. And if two players are agreeing to the tree climbing assailant getting some sort of bonus or benefit from their tree climbing... it's something they are both agreeing to on the fly. That's fine. That's great. But pulling some PnP ability out of some sourcebook and using that printed ruling as a right to an ability that might not be expected to be encountered in NWN (since, yanno, it's not in it), against people that may or may not have experience with it just smacks of rules-lawyering and taking advantage of loopholes.

I didn't say the role of the DM was exclusive to the situation. Players can totally agree to rules or situations as they see fit between themselves (IMO...). I said they can make that process better and easier. Having a DM involved can streamline the process, and make sure both sides are treated fairly, and all without necessarily stopping the flow of the scene. A chunk of OOC banter to explain the ability, and it's counters, can very easily throw a significant speedbump into a scene. And the authority part is also useful, when we are adding content to the game that isn't actually included. I'm not saying anything against anyone, but if someone tried to use a PnP spell against my character, say scrying maybe, I would ask them to involve a DM, and let the DM handle how much and what sort of information they get. If you wanted to use something I didn't know about, or wasn't sure of, again not anything against the person involved, but I would ask for a pause to tab into my web browser to look it up. And considering there are 5 versions (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3.5, 4th, and soon 5th? plus a few others like the basic set or something) of the PnP game people might be pulling from, I don't even think that's at all odd. 3rd, 3.5, and 4th are probably the most likely... but honestly I've never had much experience with anything past 2nd, other then NWN itself. Then, add to all that that DM-less PnP abilities being used demand the assumed trust that the character using it has fulfilled all the other requirements (materials, the memorization mentioned above, concentration checks, and whatever else that a DM would or might enforce), and ignores any effects and modifiers that the player might not know about (Does the Winya Lifestone interfere with magic energies like that? Does something else around one or the other of the characters? Is there a distance limitation one or both of the players might be unaware of, or ignoring? etc.).

In general though, I would probably roll with someone claiming any sort of minor harmless/benign effect, without DMs involved, to an extent. It would still grind on me a bit that magic users suddenly have even MORE power and versatility (because I really don't see any way to police what spells your character has memorized, if they are not in the game mechanics, so including them essentially just gives magic users all of them all of the time, and even more so with the ability to rest for new spells-per-day every fifteen minutes), but in the pursuit of interesting RP all that can be suspended a bit. I'd still draw the line when those effects, even on minor levels, effect other characters, or are used to counter something done within the engine.

Also... how can my rogue use PnP spell scrolls?

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Not entirely true... Yes it can be cast from anywhere on the map, but it does have some pretty strict requirements. Including having a personal item willingly given of the target. Which, in the case you're referring, was available. Just because you don't see the lead up, doesn't mean it's not there.

And again, you can just say 'It didn't work.' How do we know you've really got a mind blank up? How do we know you're really at Kampo's? We don't. We take you at your word and that's that.

Now the fact that in this case someone was contacted directly instead of just going through the DM's was a bit of a fluke, since there was a DM already involved, and the fact that it wasn't is my fault for not catching the caster before he sent the tell.

That said, the situation in no way requires(ed) vitrol from any involved on any side.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Having run my fair share of PNP games, I can tell you that your enemies having access to Discern Location and Teleport is the deadliest combination out there. Yes, it's a valid spell. Yes, Faerun is high magic and that particular spell is commonplace. Instead of complaining about it, you should try using it yourself. If it's valid, then it's valid across the board. If they're using it on you, then they have given you carte blanche to use it on them in turn.

Them, and their children. The best counter to Discern Location is Discern Location. If you're planning world conquest and you forgot to bring arcane spellcasting, it's your ass.

Now that being said, we should drop the specifics and get back to talking about the base mechanics, for knowledge and science and all that jazz (not the specifics about the mechanics, obviously that's okay).

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

You kind of just argued against yourself there by saying that you either need to be a powerful mage, or be a god, or have a god step in to intervene. I think if something requires a God to directly intervene, it's pretty imbalanced. Besides those are very specific methods of protecting against it. What about the other 70% of the server (Guessed statistics) who don't know magic, or are not capable of casting mind blank? What about them? Or do you simply not care about the vast majority?

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

How much are Lesser Mind Blank Potions?

As far as I know, lesser mind blank doesn't block Discern Location, because the SRD says only "Mind Blank" does. Lesser Mindblank is a confabulation of a different game and that happens to be the one we're playing.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Probably quite expensive if you intend to walk around with them activated 100% of the time to stop someone using practically godgaming spells.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

Anybody can drink a potion of Mind Blank. If I had reason to suspect that someone was using divinations on me, I would say they get nothing in return because I'm using potions (which should, technically, last 24 hours). Since the PNP mechanics are being invoked, then the 24 hour duration of Mind Blank should be invoked as well, which means neither you nor your goods are detectable until you screw up.

If people don't know what Discern Location does, then either A: they should politely decline (totally valid response), which could mean that the spellcasting got screwed up somehow by the Leylines or the person who cast it didn't get a good enough look at the individual, or B: they can accept that their character would be subject to the spell they know nothing about. I say this because there are plenty of things in Faerun that most people know nothing about that don't disappear because they're unknown. That's an unfortunate way to find out about it, but it could also be fun to roleplay out.

Needled: Mind Blank is multiple target, Lesser Mind Blank is single target. It stands to reason that the Lesser version would work fine to block Discern Location, considering that True Seeing (a fifth level spell) defeats every form of Illusion imaginable.

Jim: If you're only using one a day? Not that expensive, especially considering that it costs 100,000 gold a week to rent a house.

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Mathus, Void Apostle of the New Moon

Thank you Letum and bidocks for showing others how we can have a disagreement and still let it be a civil discussion.

I apologize if my tone ever came off in the negative, Yossarin.

Lesser mind blank. Not many (nobody probably) can drink the potion that counters the spell's listed blocks, as it's a level 8 spell.



As soon as you start blurring the time lines, and ignoring WYSIWYG you're basically applying your own personal judgement against someone pretending to cast a spell that doesn't exist. Even if you were talking about Lesser Mind Blank, it lasts 1 turn a level, we play by the rules that you see ingame over the ones you see in the SRD, if both conflict; WYSIWYG.



You're applying your own conclusion to compare something from 2 completely different source materials with different counterspells, range, invocations, spell levels, purposes, targets, area of effect, etc etc. The spell durations don't even match.



Great. Versus 0 gp and 10 minutes of AFK time sending you a tell to ask if you're mindblanked still an unseemingly infinite number of times... yeah no..



Doesn't say "casts a single target mind blank on a creature."

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

First of all, show me where you can get potions of Mind Blank. Brew Potion only works for spells at level 3 and below. Mind Blank is level 8, therefore 5 levels out of range to be valid for potion creation. (Unless for some reason this has been changed on Amia. I do not know, I do not brew potions myself.)

Secondly. Whilst Mindblank does last 24hours, that is not 24 hours in realtime, that is what, 48 minutes or so real time? 48 minutes is a while, sure, but when a reset lasts for 8 hours, the cost is still non-existent because the potions do not exist.

Lesser Mind-blank potions however, are a made up spell which unless a DM specifically states so, do not work against Discern Location, as they are different spells.

Also, Lesser Mind-blank potions only last for 1turn/level, meaning the cost would go up quite some if you decided to use them instead. Also, I do not rent houses for that reason. They are stupidly overpriced especially for people who do not bossfarm every day to keep up to that amount of gold just to have a place to live. I mean what citizen earns 100,000 gold a week in Cordor? That doesn't even make logical sense. It's just a gold dump to probably try fix the economy.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.

DMs have told me that Lesser Mind Blank is useless vs Discern Location. I would disagree for similar reasons as raised before but that's what I've been told by the powers that be. It would be inconsistent to say that when DMs aren't around it works how you like, and problematic if a DM ends up stepping into the situation and saying "Actually it works like this", so. Forget the mind blank potions.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

Harhar, part of my character's switch being flipped was the realization of how powerful this magic was. Can't run, cause they'll find you-- might as well fight?

But I believe this thread wasn't designed to talk about the power level of discern location, instead to describe what the spell is. People are allowed to deny its use, and they don't need to give any reason why. So if you believe its overpowered, reject it. And no one should be concerned.

I'm not the magic junky capable of giving a DM answer on the potential for lesser mindblank to work against Discern location, sadly.