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I'm kind of curious how you picked that specific ratio. You don't get anything special at either level 5 or level 25 in either of those classes, as far as I know. I'm not much of a build expert, but 5/25 seems kind of arbitrary. Why pick those cutoffs?

*shrugs* a level each 5 except 30 I guess. I'm know nothing about builds myself, the ratios are not exactly needed, just similar I suppose

well after 20 you don't get new spell slots and the bard song doesn't improve much for the high perform necessary (unless the song was modified beyond vanilla and not detailed in the class thread)...guess it depends on what you plan on doing - mostly RP, RP+ high level areas, etc.

From a build perspective, I'd add in at least 4 levels of Ftr to allow for 4 attacks, something like Ftr4/bard20/rogue6 and you can take Lasting Inspiration for 100 round songs.

Not sure how much rogue you want, but you could always do something like Bard 16/Rogue4/Shadowdancer10 and get epic dodge plus a good song.

Sort of depends what you're going for..

Thanks a lot for he replies

I try and work out the Fighter 4/bard 20/rogue 6 build.

What's your reason to add rogue? The bars is already a semi-rogue class. The 6 rogue levels do nothing

25bard, 5 fighter, for EWS and the fourth attack i say.

The only rogue/bard combo that works is 20bard/10rogue - Taking epic dodge
But you can archive that build too with 20/4/6 bard-fighter-shadow dancer if you are interested in the epic dodge

A bard works either with 20-25 or 30 levels. Often combined with a high BAB class. Rogue isn't a high bab class

*shrugs* I suppose for the sneak attack?
Though as stated, I know nothing about build building.

I suppose it isn't that important anyway. Thanks again for the reply.

25 bard is actually good, because that is the point when you get +6ac with bard song with proper amount of perform. Also, your spelss will not be dispelled above lvl 23 bard, so that can make you a solid caster. Having base 18 charisma will give you some extra spells. If you will have a dex based bard than you will get a solid reflex save, which is good combined with the evasion which comes with the rogue lvls. Also by being a rogue you can invest some skill points in spot for example, also some small amount in pick pocket, open locks, disable trap etc....with your dex modifier, the gears that you can find IG and the +13 bonus what you can get with the lvl 25 bard song your character can become a universal one. Having some spellcraft, lore, bluff, persuade is also good for giggles.

Rogue would add the ability to max open locks and disable traps, which in combination with the skills from the bard song, will really let them get high. Not knowing the server that well, I don't know if that's necessary or even valuable at higher levels, but having to cross-class those may limit access to some higher level content. Also, not sure if setting traps is worth it here, but again bard doesn't have that as a class skill if that's the direction he wants his PC to go.

The difference between 16 Base cha and 18 base cha is 1x More level six spell usage (Often another mass haste) not worth it imo.

The bard song also allows you to have to be less specific with your gear. So at Bard 25 that is 14 less skillpoints you need to allocate on gear for Disable trap, set trap, hide, move silently, even UMD if you are feeling froggy and want to swap gear out after you use the song.

And Lasting (W)inspiration is a must (earliest you can take it is at level 23 if you take 23 levels of Bard first, you'd take it on the Bard bonus feat at 23).

Yep.

The ONLY downside with a bard is the low hp /saves though. It's terrible and such a bane. I'd recommend blending a high bab class with bard just flr the extra hp and fort-Saves.

Very_Svensk wrote:

The only rogue/bard combo that works is 20bard/10rogue - Taking epic dodge
But you can archive that build too with 20/4/6 bard-fighter-shadow dancer if you are interested in the epic dodge

A bard works either with 20-25 or 30 levels. Often combined with a high BAB class. Rogue isn't a high bab class

I think he means shadow dancer. You can't get epic dodge with 10 rogue.

HAH! You are right ... I was thinking about the 20monk/10 rogueeee

Question on monks, do gloves interfere with (Improved) Ki Strike? And if not, is it worth it to get Imp Ki Strike to +5 on a monk?

Lastly as a side question, what class combos do you builders think are good for svirfneblin? (Not asking for specific builds just ideas). Currently I have one build i'm working towards but I kinda want a back up plan if I find out i wish to rebuild, would love some thoughts, input.

+5 gloves makes the Ki Strike +5 irrelevant. Don't take it.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

+5 gloves makes the Ki Strike +5 irrelevant. Don't take it.

Alright ty for that see I was struggling with ideas. A svirfneblin has the potential to have starting 20 Dex and 20 Wis so I was wondering if that was 'powerful' for a monk and thinking with +1 to wis said svirf could get access to Imp Ki Strike.

I've tried Monk16/ftr6/sd6, fists

To resume the build, it's a quick, very evasive little thing ( 60 ac , epic dodge and HIPS) and low damage ( many attacks though).

While it's a good build to -survive- in a group, it doesn't contribute much damage-wise.

The high AC and evasiveness is partially countered by the low damage which means you'll be fighting (solo) a mob for a much longer time than say a WM, which means more more attack rolls from the enemies.

Quite a -niche- buid, really, has it's cool strengths, but I wouldn't call it particularily -strong-.

psycho wrote:

I've tried Monk16/ftr6/sd6, fists

To resume the build, it's a quick, very evasive little thing ( 60 ac , epic dodge and HIPS) and low damage ( many attacks though).

While it's a good build to -survive- in a group, it doesn't contribute much damage-wise.

The high AC and evasiveness is partially countered by the low damage which means you'll be fighting (solo) a mob for a much longer time than say a WM, which means more more attack rolls from the enemies.

Quite a -niche- buid, really, has it's cool strengths, but I wouldn't call it particularily -strong-.

I would argue that a better fist build is Monk 9 / Rogue 11 / Fighter 10 or Monk 9 / Rogue 13 / Fighter 8.

You end up with great AC, Epic Dodge, the ability to Corner Sneak as well as lay traps, and while your base fist damage isn't super high you're throwing a lot more d6's down range via Sneak Attack. The second build even gets Crippling Strike.

I just had this wacky build idea and was wondering if it's viable.

Druid5/Shifter10/Blackguard15

Base 16 wisdom, maxed charisma = 38 buffed

Key feats: Divine Might, Divine Shield, cross class tumble

Key shape: Vampire Shape

Str= 26 + 2 (blackguard power) +2 (negative energy burst) + 4 (str belt) +4 (potion)= 38

If my calculations are right, damage would be around 1d10+1d10 negative energy, +4 enhancement , +2 ( weapon focus feat on undead) + 14 ( str ) + 14 ( divine might) = around 45 damage per hit PLUS 4d6 sneak attack damage while in darkness ( Blackguard ability ) PLUS 26 DC level drain on hit,

And with the 10 pre-epic blackguard levels raising the base AB to around 22+14 (str) +3 (epic weapon focus) +5 ( weapon enhancement) +1 (epic prowess) = 45 AB which is pretty good for a shifter. ( 50 AB with Divine Favor for short term extra accuracy too! )

As for AC, the build loses out on 3 tumble, but compensates with +15 AC divine shield and armor skin.

I don't know exactly how much max AC we're talking about here, but i'd bet it'd be around 60 maxed with divine shield

And with the vampire +3 vampiric regen, +3 regen, 5/+5 DR, crit and sneak attack immunity, in theory, it looks like quite the beast

And yes, some might ask why only 10 shifter levels? On NwnWikia it says Undead Shape can be taken on the 10th shifter level with no wisdom prerequisite, allowing to focus on charisma and raise it to 38 max.

Finally, the neat Blackguard powers are all rather compatible with the vampire, the armor skin spell, the Darkness spells, minor conceilment, etc.

Your thoughts?

Edit: Actually, sounds like the -perfect- build against Beholders as , I believe, vampire are immune to -instadeath- and shifters don't rely on spells too much versus the dispellings.

Sad build is sad.

And how are you calculating a 15 AC Divine Shield? You need 40 CHA for that. Also, maxed CHA on a shifter? Just terrible.

And not sure if you can take epic Shifter feats with 10 Shifter anyways, they all state epic Shifter as a pre-req, which I think means 11+ Shifter levels.

There are quite a few epic feats which can be taken on the 10th/20th level of any given class, so that makes sense.

Dodge AC would probably cap, I'm pretty sure a whole mess of shifter AC comes from that. Also I don't think you could use your BG widgets while shifted, though using them before shifting could work. It's a nice idea at least, although BG15 grates on my sensibilities (no epic fiend?!)

Last edited by Ogrehero on Tue, Jun 18 2013, 14:02 PM, edited 10 times in total.

Good Morning all,

I am looking to build a melee cleric using some fighter levels and a rogue skill dump, in order to decent Kelemvor Doomguide and I would like some advice on the viability of the following build. The build is correct at time of writing and I have tested it several times in offline mode just to make sure the feats can be taken, what I do not know is if its going to work in game.

I would be grateful for feedback

Updated the complete build as per recommendations, please note I have lowered INT to 12 and completely removed the skill Discipline from the build putting the spare 20 odd points into Heal

Code:

STR 14
DEX 8
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 16 (20)
CHA 15 (18)

Human

C POWER ATTACK, DIVINE MIGHT
C
C WEAPON PROFICIENCY EXOTIC
C WISDOM +1
C
C EXTEND SPELL
C
C WISDOM +1
C BLIND FIGHT
C
C
C WISDOM +1, MAXIMIZE SPELL
C
C
C IMPROVED CRITICAL BASTARD SWORD
C WISDOM +1
C
C DIVINE SHIELD
C
C CHARISMA +1
F WEAPON FOCUS AND EPIC WEAPON FOCUS BASTARD SWORD
F EPIC PROWESS
F 
F CHARISMA +1, WEAPON SPECIALIZATION AND EPIC SPECIALIZATION BASTARD SWORD
C
C
C EPIC SPELL MUMMY DUST, ARMOUR SKIN
R CHARISMA +1, SKILL DUMPS
R
C EITHER EPIC SPELL GREATER RUIN

If you're wanting to melee, I'd suggest stopping at 20 wisdom, taking Great Charisma instead of Epic Fortitude (you won't be hurting for Fort saves), then spending the rest of your level up points on Charisma to have 18 base. That turns into a +10 Divine Might/Shield with fully buffed Charisma.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

If you're wanting to melee, I'd suggest stopping at 20 wisdom, taking Great Charisma instead of Epic Fortitude (you won't be hurting for Fort saves), then spending the rest of your level up points on Charisma to have 18 base. That turns into a +10 Divine Might/Shield with fully buffed Charisma.

Thanks I have updated the build, another question should I either drop KD or drop something else in order to take IKD?

I would drop Extra Turning, though you're also missing Maximize Spell (which is pretty fantastic to have for casting your Bull's, Eagle's, Endurance spells).

If you're set on using a Bastard Sword, that's how I'd go. If not, you could use a Longsword and free up a feat for both Maximize and IKD.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

I would drop Extra Turning, though you're also missing Maximize Spell (which is pretty fantastic to have for casting your Bull's, Eagle's, Endurance spells).

If you're set on using a Bastard Sword, that's how I'd go. If not, you could use a Longsword and free up a feat for both Maximize and IKD.

Being a Kelemvorite (at least that's the plan) I would prefer to use the Bastard Sword, which would be more important IKD or Maximize?

MAximize.
A maxed bulls = 5 STR.
A non maxed = 2 min 5 max.

If you use only non-maxed you need 10 STR On your gear
If you can maximize you only need to put 7 On your gear.

See where i am going?

Very_Svensk wrote:

MAximize.
A maxed bulls = 5 STR.
A non maxed = 2 min 5 max.

If you use only non-maxed you need 10 STR On your gear
If you can maximize you only need to put 7 On your gear.

See where i am going?

Makes absolute sense to me, Maximized it is.

That being the case should I drop KD for something else? Or is KD worth it even without being improved?

Having Knockdown/Improved knockdown would no doubt be very useful, Considering a 20STR Melee Cleric fully buffed has 55/56+ AB.

It's actually 23/6/1

Edit to add:
I would suggest using Svensk's 24/5/1 and dropping Epic Discipline. Your 70 AC means more than your Discipline score does. My cleric never gets knocked down and doesn't have Epic Discipline.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

It's actually 23/6/1

I hate the 23/6/1 - It's not dispell immune and can thus not solo flayers or giants or manor because all your spells will be stripped once you face the caster mobs.

Edit - My 24/5/1 doesn't exist anymore. I edited it away when i noticed your reply derk xD

The plan was to get a bit more AB and melee damage by taking 5 fighter levels pre-epic, using the 6th to get EWS. I believe its possible to do it with 4 fighter post epic but loosing the AB.

I really do not know what best from a mechanical point of view.

ICly as a Cleric of Kelemvor I want this character to be able to hold his own in melee whilst still be a useful offensive caster and self buffer.

24/5/1 - 4 APR, Immunity to Greater Dispelling, EWS.
23/5/2 - 4 APR, EWS, Evasion, Vulnerability to Greater Dispelling IF you roll 1s.

tearsofthewyrm wrote:

24/5/1 - 4 APR, Immunity to Greater Dispelling, EWS.
23/5/2 - 4 APR, EWS, Evasion, Vulnerability to Greater Dispelling IF you roll 1s.

So would I be right in saying that the build as it stands is the same mechanically as 23/5/2 with the obvious differences in feats? I.e. his spells will be fine 95% of the time?

Because I am trying out 24/5/1 and its coming up 3 attacks and 1 BaB lower, is that a good trade off for immunity to dispel?

Also on the 24/5/1 I am getting an extra point of epic wisdom I can't seem to avoid at lvl 27-28

Ogrehero wrote:

Also on the 24/5/1 I am getting an extra point of epic wisdom I can't seem to avoid at lvl 27-28

If it's an extra feat on a cleric level , Take Armor skin.

On the assumption that discipline is not required I have lowered INT to 12 and use the two points to increase CHA to 15 freeing up an epic feat but maintaining target stats.

Please see my original post for the full revised build

Cleric 24 (20 pre epic)
Fighter 4
rogue 2

The reason you are getting 3 APR is because you need at least four levels of full BAB classes pre-epic in order to gain the fourth attack, which in this case would be fighter.

tearsofthewyrm wrote:

The reason you are getting 3 APR is because you need at least four levels of full BAB classes pre-epic in order to gain the fourth attack, which in this case would be fighter.

Oh I know

I have adapted the build as suggested in the knowledge that I will loose that attack and some BaB but hopefully the trade off is a more capable caster and character over all. I have updated my original post with the new proposed plan and would welcome feed back on it. Plus also I understand there are some spells that can compensation for it like Divine power.

If all is well I will look to start it soon.

For 24/5/1, you go 16/4 pre-epic. Take Fighter 5 on level 30 for EWS and Discipline. For your cleric bonus feat, do what Svensk said and take Armor Skin then.

Getting a bit confused now,

Do I need discipline in this build? if yes I take INT 14 and epic Charisma if no then I can take INT 12 and free up an epic feat.

Am I to take fighter levels pre or post epic because both have been recommended.

Pre-epic: 4 Fighter, 16 Cleric - 7 general feats, 3 fighter bonus feats, 1 human bonus feat.
Epic: 8 Cleric, 1 Fighter, 1 Rogue - 4 epic feats, 1 cleric bonus epic feat.

Ok understood,

So Int 14 and discipline and epic charisma

or

Int 12, no discipline and an extra epic feat?

As there doesn't seem much point taking discipline if I am not going to bolster it with epic skill focus?

I'd still go Disc, because you might find the epic gloves or be able to gear up sufficiently to stand a chance. Everyone serious about PvP will attempt a knockdown in combat against you, so you'll want to be able to at least have a fighting chance. Straight skill ranks at max is 33 Disc, plus a small amount from strength mod, which is a 50% chance to not get KD'd by thiefy types with lowerish AB. Even better if you gear up. Getting knocked down by a sneak is especially bad because it means they dish out a lot more damage.

Ok this is hopefully the final build

Code:

STR 14
DEX 8
CON 10
INT 14
WIS 16 (20)
CHA 14 (18)

Human 24 CLERIC/5 FIGHTER/1 ROGUE

F POWER ATTACK, EXOTIC WEAPON PROFICIENCY, WEAPON FOCUS BASTARD SWORD
F BLIND-FIGHT
C DIVINE MIGHT
F WISDOM +1
C
F WEAPONS SPECIALIZATION BASTARD SWORD, EXTEND SPELL
C
C WISDOM +1
C MAXIMIZE SPELL
C
C
C WISDOM +1,IMPROVED CRITICAL BASTARD SWORD
C
C
C DIVINE SHIELD 
C WISDOM +1
C
C BREW POTIONS
C
F CHARISMA +1
C EPIC CHARISMA
C
C
C CHARISMA +1, EPIC WEAPON FOCUS BASTARD SWORD
C
C
C EPIC SPELL MUMMY DUST, ARMOUR SKIN
R CHARISMA +1, TUMBLE 30, UMD 25
C 
F EPIC WEAPON SPECIALIZATION BASTARD SWORD, DISC 33, HEAL 20

Knockdown over Brew Potions.

Because Knockdown is more valuable on a melee cleric.

even if its just basic KD and not improved?

I had a thought to replace KD with brew potions because he can then create bless weapon potions for undead hunting with comrades and there isnt a spare feat to take IKD.

KD works just fine. You just won't be KDing giants and dragons. But most other things are susceptible.

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