AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Biased Balance Discussion

Greetings.

Is it not time to perhaps address the issue of drow and their immense ECL. Is it truly fair to value +2 in one extra ability score and some spell resistance equal to one-two feats in epic lost due to this.

Can they not just take much longer to level up?
I personally feel that sometimes people exclude themselves from enjoying the underdark roleplay, especially as a drow, because of the massive impact it has on the power of their characters.

Drow pros;
41-42 Spell resistance @ 30
+2CHA
+2INT
+2DEX

Drow cons:
-2CON
-1AB Outdoors
-1BAB (Since you get 5 extra BAB In epic every 2 levels)
-1 Feat (Sometimes 2)
- You have 31 job points, instead of 33.

They are neither able to get the same level spread as other races due to the disability of their extra ECL nor can they in many cases not "Discipline, Tumble or spotdump" like other races can.

Yours truly, A biased Drow player! <3

relevant:

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=69025&p=1166259#p1166259
viewtopic.php?p=816771#p816771

unfortunately this my friend, is status quo, and won't change, no matter how stupid it is.

Oh right - Forgot to mention they get -1 AB outdoors and another -1AB since they cannot get to level 30. (You get extra BAB every 2 levels after 20 and thus they only get 4 extra BAB, instead of 5)

Why not remove all ECLs?

Seriously, if one UD race gets it removed, why not all? Why is this only for Drow?

If you want to remove Drow ECL, try not to be biased.

Yaster Galer wrote:

Why not remove all ECLs?

Seriously, if one UD race gets it removed, why not all? Why is this only for Drow?

If you want to remove Drow ECL, try not to be biased.

Why not. Updated the main post and added how biased i am.

Because out of all the UD races, Drow need the least incentive to play. If you actually want DMs to take this thread seriously, try not to imply only Drow need this.

That's all I'll say, but unless this isn't the same 'balance problems' solely for Drow, this won't even hit page 3 without this being locked.

There's a few things you forgot if you want to take all the pros and cons together.

For example, they get +2 DEX. Also -1 saves because they can't get the epic bonus at level 30. They also get the core elven traits, such as keen sense.

As for dropping the ECL, you're looking at a race that gets a solid amount of SR, +4 to total stats, with other bonuses to go with it. Bottom line is if they didn't have the ECL they'd be quite overpowered.

They're not going to be better or equal at every race at every build, and that's totally intentional. You probably shouldn't expect a kobold STR build for example to compare with a half-orc, because one's catering to their racial strengths and one isn't.
And don't forget that drow can make very good mage builds, 26/1/1 makes a very strong combination. For both wizard or sorcerer.

I don't think that they need the ECL lowered, tbh.

They also get -2AB Outdoors /-1 Indoors and One(1) to two (2) feats less then the average character.
It could be the difference from taking epic prowess and/or Natural armour. Then the difference is 2AC and +1AB more.

They can neither take Hellball! *Very sad face*

Being level 28 instead of 30 means you get
- Lower spell durations
- Lower spell penetration
- less feats
- less AB
- less BAB
- less extra feats
- odd level spreads
- one less epic spell
- that some builds do not work

- you cannot tumbledump/discipline dump/spotdump/umd dump like other builds (Going 18Assassin/18Palameaster/18Arcane archer/18 shadowdancer prevents this) (Not going 18assassin/palemaster/arcane archer/Shadowdancer makes you miss out on goodies of the class)

I really just want people to play more drow. Because we all know that the server Needs more evil!

I'd point out that for example Aasimar also get +4 to stats without any real negatives and are only a +1 ECL race, it doesn't seem like drow being +1 instead of +2 would be too unbalanced considering, especially since the drow +4 is between dex, int and cha (but take -2 con which hurts) and there really aren't too many builds that have all or most of those as main stats so really you most often are just getting most of the benefit from one or maybe a bit from two (or neither of course is you pick a non dex or cha reliant build). Although I am personally rather bias for drow myself having played them a LOT.

Oh yeah also Aasimar (and other races that are universal) can be built on humans which gives the nice and seemingly rather broken extra feat at level 1 since they still register as human at that point. (Unless we've somehow fixed this? never actually made a human based outsider on amia.)

Muspelkvist wrote:

-1AB Outdoors

>_>
That's situational, depending on if it's daytime or not. And it's actually -1 to AB and Search/Spot checks.

Muspelkvist wrote:

They also get -2AB Outdoors /-1 Indoors and One(1) to two (2) feats less then the average character.
It could be the difference from taking epic prowess and/or Natural armour. Then the difference is 2AC and +1AB more.

They can neither take Hellball! *Very sad face*

Being level 28 instead of 30 means you get
- Lower spell durations
- Lower spell penetration
- less feats
- less AB
- less BAB
- less extra feats
- odd level spreads
- one less epic spell
- that some builds do not work

- you cannot tumbledump/discipline dump/spotdump/umd dump like other builds (Going 18Assassin/18Palameaster/18Arcane archer/18 shadowdancer prevents this) (Not going 18assassin/palemaster/arcane archer/Shadowdancer makes you miss out on goodies of the class)

I really just want people to play more drow. Because we all know that the server Needs more evil!

I could maybe see it as +1 ECL, but 0 not a chance. Even +1 is pushing it because that Spell Resistance is a real problem. If you want people to play more "evil" drow you should've suggested making good drows request only. Though I wouldn't hold my breath on that change.

The Great Equalizer wrote:

I'd point out that for example Aasimar also get +4 to stats without any real negatives and are only a +1 ECL race, it doesn't seem like drow being +1 instead of +2 would be too unbalanced considering, especially since the drow +4 is between dex and cha and there really aren't too many builds that have those as the two main stat so really you most often are just getting most of the benefit from one or the other (or neither of course is you pick a non dex or cha reliant build). Although I am personally rather bias for drow myself having played them a LOT.

Aasimar don't get, what is it, 38 SR?

DerkDerkistan wrote:

The Great Equalizer wrote:

I'd point out that for example Aasimar also get +4 to stats without any real negatives and are only a +1 ECL race, it doesn't seem like drow being +1 instead of +2 would be too unbalanced considering, especially since the drow +4 is between dex and cha and there really aren't too many builds that have those as the two main stat so really you most often are just getting most of the benefit from one or the other (or neither of course is you pick a non dex or cha reliant build). Although I am personally rather bias for drow myself having played them a LOT.

Aasimar don't get, what is it, 38 SR?

40. Yet it is still penetrated by nearly all casters with an ECL higher then 23.

To beat a 40 SR at level 23 without penetration you need to roll a 17 or higher. Even at 30 caster levels you still have a 50% chance to resist it at 40 SR

Muspelkvist wrote:

40. Yet it is still penetrated by nearly all casters with an ECL higher then 23.

Did you know that if you made a pure monk, just a plain 30 levels of monk you would get 40 Spell Resistance? You didn't even have to waste 30 levels in a class to get that much, you can be a pure wizard and still have a natural 40 Spell Resistance. Resistance isn't suppose to mean magic immune, 40 SR is pretty damn good. Yes a level 23 caster CAN get through it on occasion, but not every time. 23+ a roll of 20 to beat SR is 43, so if that level 23 caster rolled a 16 or less the spell doesn't effect you unless they waste three feats to get +6 to beat SR and you can bring that up to only 50% of their spells effecting you. That's a pretty damn good deal for 1 ECL, you can bet your bottom the other ECL was spent on those ability bonuses.

As far as Aasimar are concerned, yes, they can get the +1 extra feat if base human, and do get +4 to their stats, as well as a few miscellaneous resistances. They're on the bridge of being powerful for a +1 ECL subrace.

Still, they do have weaknesses, such as being banish bait.

Too bad that drow SR is pointless because 1 mords takes your SR down to squat and they needed to mords you anyways, so any equation about how much you'd resist is pointless really. Unless that's changed, that is. I haven't tested it. In the DOTU it would definitely imply that the SR is innate not dispellable by nature, but meh. in my other post in 2010 I outlined why the +2 cha and +2 int bonuses don't work well together at all. Light sensitivty is a joke. Losing +1 saves/ +1ab and possibly 3 feats is also a joke. There's literally no reason you'd want to go drow over elf in terms of power alone. It's an RP race.

Oh. PS. with how skill points are multipled, you also don't get the 3x skills at level 1 due to how the +1 int is calculated, so that's another jab at how pointless those 2 int points are.

You don't always get Mord'd though, especially in quickdraw PvP, or against a WM where cutting their buffs is really just the chance they need to break the mage's face. Even a 20% chance to block a good number of spells is pretty nice, and also makes you immune to stuff like Iron Horn from items.

I do agree that Level Adjustment is a terrible, terrible balancing device because drow do end up losing so much, but reducing it just isn't feasible.

Drow have always suffered from this and have been popular regardless - their lack of popularity of late doesn't have much to do with it I daresay.

If you have tips as to how to increase drow popularity; Please PLEASE shoot me a pm! <3

I have to disagree with your premise that you can't take a dump level on drow. All of my drow have them (once I learned such is a requirement when building chars on Amia). You just have to plan your build carefully, and sometimes endure the xp penalty to achieve your goal.

Also I believe it has been said before that everyone's job points cap at 30. The reason you start with 3 pts at level 1 is so that ECL races are not penalized.

Not without losing some stuff. They're too strong for ECL 1 by a long shot, but probably not worth an ECL 2 either.

Oh, and I'd love if certain people here can manage to discuss things without sounding like a stuck-up brat whilst doing so.

Muspelkvist wrote:

If you have tips as to how to increase drow popularity; Please PLEASE shoot me a pm! <3

All of my solutions involve time travel, lament, and remaking the entire everything of drow to be less stress-intensive. Unfortunately, all of those options are useless or impossible.

I was always living with the premise that people pick the race based on the character they want to play, not based on how uber the race is.

The fact that drow have always been the most popular Underdark race, and even these times present a considerable number as a race (I forgot to count Eilies before, but here you go!) just goes to show that power considerations do kinda fall second to RP for a majority. This is good, really! Kudos!

For now, with the current server setting, I see no need to alter Drow from what they are.

There's other, more urgent things that need to be addressed.

There is also no need to NOT discuss it? Other things being more urgent does not mean you just ignore less urgent things it just means that... well that they are less urgent and less likely to get dealt with soon. Although I agree with Sune that drow currently would be too strong as a +1 ecl although I also think that they are weaker than they should be now at +2, so I'd be very interested in a discussion of how drow could be rebalanced a bit to fit +1. And I know that drow palemasters would be ecstatic if drow got to be +1 instead of +2.

Personally I think you could do fine dropping the SR from 11 + level (39 at max) down to 6 + level (35 at max) and dropping the +2 to will saves entirely.

Just my input here, but aren't drow supposed to be more powerful? I don't play drow, but they seem gimped and weak with the ECL+2 thing. Very few builds are seriously going to work for them and they are a specialized rp group. While I understand that this makes all drow more powerful, including the surface drow, I don't think this is a bad thing. Drow are naturally more powerful. Deal with it, don't balance it. It's just the way they're supposed to be.

tl;dr The way we do ECL+ races needs to be overhauled.

Dropping them to 1 ECL would make them ridiculously good to the point nobody'd bother starting any other 1 ECL race.

My only issue with the race is they can't ever gain PM's winter wight, which seems like a silly brainfart of a choice to intend. (Much like dragonshape saddling you w/ only chromatics, regardless of alignment.)

You're basically stating that drow can never achieve the mastery of necromancy "lesser" races have. A statement counter to lore of every edition of the game in existence.

IMO: My thing about the drow is that our demographic of drow are generally Eilistraeen drow singularly, and much less underdark drow. I would also note that my experience with the particular drow faction is generally 'close to blood', a PvP intensive people who's blood runs hot quickly, they always seem angry ICly. I have learned myself that I cannot RP with this group rationally, but I would say that they among themselves band together quite adhesive and do not have much spill-over into other factions. The best thing you can do to balance this, is to create a strong Underdark drow society that matches them. I understand the drow houses are generally strife reliant buffoons, but one house just needs to rise up and absorb the others. Just kingpin the caves, and start building your numbers. It takes a lot of guts for someone down there to say, hey, I'm the leader and you're going to obey me... but see what happens. Just keep in mind that the Shrine is just a nest of passive power builds in a hornet's nest waiting to be kicked. It is all just my own opinion though, my observations that many people may have other feelings on.

Aiseth wrote:

The best thing you can do to balance this, is to create a strong Underdark drow society that matches them.

Already underway :>
<3 my drowsies.

They should remain at +2 ECL, they are pretty powerful with the bonus stuff.

What bothers me the most is the number of Good Drows, in the last few weeks i have seen 1? Kinda evil-ish drow with 4~5 Good drows, if the ECL would drop to +1 the server would be overpopulated with Good Drow.

I heard people say that when genasi got their ECL dropped to 0 and yet there aren't genasi everywhere. And I think the point here is that the they really aren't "pretty powerful" for a +2 ecl, rather the opposite in fact, ideally we could balance them a bit and get them from an underwhelming +2 ecl race to a strong but fair +1 ecl race. At least in my opinion.

Has balancing them the other way been pondered? Like, if the general agreement is that they're too strong for a +1 ECL but not quite strong enough to justify the whole +2, maybe instead of dropping them to +1 and balancing something off of them, we might leave them at +2 but give them something to make them really deserve the +2. Something practical but not flashy, like, I don't know... a Skill Focus feat of their choice, or something?

They gain +4 attribute points but loose 1-2 feats. Its not worth it
and sometimes they cant even skilldump.
Thats a serious damp!

The Level Adjustment has never seemed to impede people en masse from playing a drow before, which makes me think there is another cause for it. I think the better way to go about it would be to either try and recruit other players or something into a regular thing to help speak drow-based RP again rather than to play with the level adjustments.

I would be in support of dropping the ECL adjustment on drow, tiefling and other races, if it weren't for the fact that a seeming majority of Amia's 'predominantly evil race' characters are good-aligned.

Heh, for every step away from a race's native alignment, you get a +1 to your ECL due to the focus of fighting against your nature distracting you from your adventuring profession. Would be awesome.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

Heh, for every step away from a race's native alignment, you get a +1 to your ECL due to the focus of fighting against your nature distracting you from your adventuring profession. Would be awesome.

OMG, yes please. Tiefling paladins at ECL +4!

+2 is the Canon ECL of the race, and its not seemed to bother people until now. If your major concern is that you cant powerbuild with a Drow, perhaps you should reconsider what server you play on. Seeing how Amia is a Roleplay server and not a mindless "lets go power build so I can show people how awesome I am because my character can beat up all the other player's characters because i'm chaotic evil so its okay to attack people for no reason" PvP server.

That excuse is growing old and isn't relevant to the discussion. Balance is a genuine concern, whether this server is roleplay-focused or not. That said, I feel drow are rather appealing as a race as is - I know I could make a viable character build, even if it had ECL + 4. I never advocate straying too far from canon lore.

Sphinx wrote:

I would be in support of dropping the ECL adjustment on drow, tiefling and other races, if it weren't for the fact that a seeming majority of Amia's 'predominantly evil race' characters are good-aligned.

The same goes opposite, too. Do you even realize how many Blackguards are running around as Aasimar?

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Sphinx wrote:

I would be in support of dropping the ECL adjustment on drow, tiefling and other races, if it weren't for the fact that a seeming majority of Amia's 'predominantly evil race' characters are good-aligned.

The same goes opposite, too. Do you even realize how many Blackguards are running around as Aasimar?

The demon Lord Eltab's champion is a fallen Aasimar.

Sphinx wrote:

That excuse is growing old and isn't relevant to the discussion. Balance is a genuine concern, whether this server is roleplay-focused or not. That said, I feel drow are rather appealing as a race as is - I know I could make a viable character build, even if it had ECL + 4. I never advocate straying too far from canon lore.

They are perfectly balanced as they are. Seeing as they get an extra Stat bonus and a free and quite nice spell resistance.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

The same goes opposite, too. Do you even realize how many Blackguards are running around as Aasimar?

I personally knew at least two of those, and made point to voice my disagreement about their subrace of choice. It works both ways, but I feel the scenario I referenced is more common. The Shrine of Eilistraee is a shining example.

Stronglikesumo wrote:

They are perfectly balanced as they are. Seeing as they get an extra Stat bonus and a free and quite nice spell resistance.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it 'perfection' on any level, but they're not as terrible as some people are making them out to be.

Because slapping an extra +2 ECL on a Subrace who's Alignment is perfectly sound in the Canon of The Faerun setting because someone doesn't like the idea of Drow being able to overcome a evil upbringing under the guidance of a good diety is a sound idea.

Because a two step difference in alignment somehow makes your stats Equal to a half outsider.

Stronglikesumo wrote:

DerkDerkistan wrote:

Sphinx wrote:

I would be in support of dropping the ECL adjustment on drow, tiefling and other races, if it weren't for the fact that a seeming majority of Amia's 'predominantly evil race' characters are good-aligned.

The same goes opposite, too. Do you even realize how many Blackguards are running around as Aasimar?

The demon Lord Eltab's champion is a fallen Aasimar.

Evil corrupts, good does not.

Muspelkvist wrote:

They gain +4 attribute points but loose 1-2 feats. Its not worth it
and sometimes they cant even skilldump.
Thats a serious damp!

if you are a dexer, wizard, bard/bg/sorc those ability changes are worth 2 epic feats
4 epic feats if you rely on both
not to mention you will, no matter what, get +1 ac, +1 reflex, +31 skill points

and bullshit they can't skill dump
26 caster 1 ranger 1 rogue
12 fighter 13 wm 3 rogue
16 rogue 6 fighter 6 sd
13 rogue 8 fighter 7 sd
etc.
if you know how to use the nwn wiki and look at feat breaks, the most you would lose is 2 (as a fighter; 1 if not) feats, and 2 skill point ranks

The thing is if you play a drow "dexer, wizard, bard/bg/sorc" you are getting a stat bump you want and then a bunch of far less useful stat bumps at a rather significant cost. The point isn't if it is worth it because playing a lot of other get "ability changes" too but without the +2 ecl.

Really drow stat bonuses are ones that you can hardly really take advantage of more than one or maybe two on a build anyway so really all that it means is that the race has more variety in what you can play and still get useful bonuses for the class, if they were con, str and dex or wis, cha and str or something then yeah, maybe more useful for certain builds than the ECL hit but dex, int and cha with -2 con is hardly the most OP combination of stat bonuses.

Drow are a bit weaker than they should be, which kind of sucks when they are supposed to be menacing and dangerous. I don't want them OP because that sucks too but they should be stronger than they are now.

Even if it doesn't change, I'd like to say something.

As a person who always wanted to play monstrous characters, I always encountered that having a + ecl was never a good mechanic to begin with. This is why I actually never wanted to (although I gm'd a game with an imp and a barghest) start a monstrous character, who had a huge disadvantage not only from having racial hd, but also from the stupid + ecl, and I thought that there should be a better way (pathfinder fixed this to some extend). As an example, ogre had 4 hd, and a +2. Was he actually comparable to a level 6 character? no, becouse pc's would've wiped the floor with the ogre at the same level. This gets even worse if you go forward into trolls or any such other ones. Even if we return to the normal amia races, I would very rarely want to go any +ecl subrace, on the fact that they get kicked in the groin at high levels(amia) or penalized with slower level progression (PnP).

The Great Equalizer wrote:

The thing is if you play a drow "dexer, wizard, bard/bg/sorc" you are getting a stat bump you want and then a bunch of far less useful stat bumps at a rather significant cost. The point isn't if it is worth it because playing a lot of other get "ability changes" too but without the +2 ecl.

Really drow stat bonuses are ones that you can hardly really take advantage of more than one or maybe two on a build anyway so really all that it means is that the race has more variety in what you can play and still get useful bonuses for the class, if they were con, str and dex or wis, cha and str or something then yeah, maybe more useful for certain builds than the ECL hit but dex, int and cha with -2 con is hardly the most OP combination of stat bonuses.

Drow are a bit weaker than they should be, which kind of sucks when they are supposed to be menacing and dangerous. I don't want them OP because that sucks too but they should be stronger than they are now.

Name a build that does not benefit from at least 2 of those ability boosts, other than shifter.

My drow SD didn't need the int boost at all and the cha did nothing really for him, my weapon masteronly benefitted from the int and my sorcerer was a glass cannon so the tiny dex addition didn't matter anyway and he had more than enough int already since he was a pure sorcerer and only his spellcraft mattered much skill wise. In fact the only drow character I had that used more than one really was my bard/sd but he was a complete RP build anyway.

Not saying extra bonuses aren't nice or useful but the int bonus on my rogue is nice and all but without it it would still be more or less the same.

Any boost to a character like that is usefull of course but claiming that it is a fair trade off compared to 2+ epic feats is disingenuous at best.

Perasonaly I think drow could stand to be very slightly stronger than their ECL would dictate if your not taking into account the light sensitivity since then you can have drow that are actually more menacing below ground and all like they should be and still balanced comparatively when on the surface (outdoor areas) And there are a lot of outdoor areas on amia.

Biased Balance Discussion - The Drow ECL level

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