AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Biased Balance Discussion

GreatPigeon wrote:

Everyone is pretty much saying they think its worth +1 but not +2. Instead of sounding like whiny brats how about make some suggestions to what the Drow could lose to balance them out at +1? Or get added to meet +2 ?

PaladinOfSune wrote:

In case it wasn't obvious from my last post, we're not changing drow ECL. Final word.

They always say that its the final word :mrgreen:

Okay, Svensk. Keep dreaming that Sune will change the drow subrace. (Try to think of everything that changing the subrace would entail, by the way)

P Three wrote:

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

I'm not really ripping on Eli's. I'm just being bad at math at 3 am. But you get the intent. I'd just love to see the Underdark more active. They're a cool faction even if I don't play there.

Which is fine, but there's a difference between denigrating our play and boosting the play of others.

I really don't think anybody's faulting the drow players, neither you individually nor the Eilie community collectively. What's being objected to is the "server culture" that doesn't seem to make any effort to keep rare things rare. Or at least, not consistently. (And before Iron objects again: Ed Greenwood babbling on a Candlekeep web forum does not qualify as a "source.")

P Three wrote:

Uh...no, that means for every one there should be four to five. The 10% ratio is only for devout monotheistic Eilistraeens.

Something else that people don't get is that the numbers take into account NPCs as well. There's a lot more NPC UD drow in the module than PC and NPC Surface drow (you have to take into account Nec'perya, L'Obsul, Underport, and even the rebel drow encampment). So technically Eili-drow are the minority still, it's just people want to play drow on the Surface.

Also, Amia is not all of the world. Sure, that one island is a center for Eili-drow, but Underport is the only UD settlement on the island. There used to be Udos and Ultrinnan, but now they are on B so it makes the numbers seem more disproportionate.

Liz wrote:

(And before Iron objects again: Ed Greenwood babbling on a Candlekeep web forum does not qualify as a "source.")

Yes it does. Ed's contract, as far as I've understood, allows him to make statements of canon lore that remain until such a time WotC may contradict them in print. I doubt anyone would seriously question his qualifications for making up accurate lore, or take the word of a WotC executive over his.

But whether we like it or not, the fact of the matter is clear and has been clear on Amia for years. Eilistraeens are not rare or inappropriate, statistically.

I do agree about server culture, though. We don't need as many drow as we have already, regardless of alignment or faith. Somewhat unusual things should be discouraged but never restricted without water-proof justification.

Eh, I'd just really like to see the Underdark invade the surface is all. That'd be cool.

A lot of people here are saying that ECL has a significant impact, others are saying no or less so. Essentially, the consequence of the ECL penalty means there's less flexibility in builds - you can still equal non-ECL powerbuilds in certain class combos but not others. So it really boils down to how being a drow affects your opportunities for PvP/PvM relative to non-ECL builds. Doesn't this discussion, then, essentially amount to "I can't optimize my powerbuild as much as a non-ECL race"?

IronAngel wrote:

So no, they're certainly not something you should have to request, or even an oddity. An Eilistraeen drow should be more common than a human adventurer.

I guess you could nerf drow and then make them +1 ECL, like Liz suggested. Cutting their SR in half would do that.

EDIT: I love the idea of increasing the Light Sensitivity penalty and giving them the option of picking Daylight Adjustment as a feat, though! Now with a more reasonable cycle of daylight, it could add some serious flavor and strategy to the game.

Agree with paragraphs 1 & 2 above. 3 is interesting, but that would make Eili drow even weaker than their counterparts below as it'd pretty much mandate that they sacrifice (another) feat, effectively making daylight-adjusted Eili drow even worse than +2 ECL in terms of consequences to their build flexibility.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Eh, I'd just really like to see the Underdark invade the surface is all. That'd be cool.

We need numbers for that.

In regards to changing drow: Changing stats and SR and all that just seems like a huge PITA, both for the Team and Players. I know that if SR was halved or stats were changed or anything I would be pretty pissed off (I paid a lot of DCs to tailor my drow build :< and certain changes would make that a waste, bit selfish on my part but it goes for people that built from the get-go as well). Why not fix the skill cap thing or give every drow Faerie Fire? I dunno, just some options of neat little things that can help.

In the end, drow don't really need changing. Besides, we don't fight fair anyways :twisted:

Assassins and traps are the Drow's forte and Drow get every stat they need to pick that and thrive, make a divine shield/might build or some very potent weapon master stats. SR is also very powerful, considering that by max level they'd be doing pretty decently in PvE. They're quite suited to the play styles and builds that have no interest in a fair fight, I say.

Raise the SR to 40. (At the very least), at level 28. Also remove Mord's negative spell resistance effect to it, and that's a great start.

the ecl is perfect as it is.

The SR is immensely powerfull added with the stats its perfect!

I have gathered only two things from this thread:

A) no matter how you word it, every post suggesting a change to the ECL has been with a build purpose in mind. Essentially, "i want my Drow subrace to compliment my build because its not doing that right now." and

B) (insert your relevent Good Drow bashing here.)

If you're choosing a subrace to compliment your build on a role play server, its advised of you to rethink your strategy to character concept and creation.

Play the subrace because the character appeals to you: take the good with the bad and roll with the punches. Ultra builds are not required to make a difference.

I didn't bash good drow at all. I just said that drow should be more powerful than everyone else. Period. Nerfing them with an ECL+2 is sort of lore breaking IMO, at least with our level cap.

This comes from a non-drow player who perceives drow as an inherently more powerful race.

Alas we won't make one subrace more powerful than all other races unless they become unavailable for PC's entirely. Hence why we give special PC races (if allowed) no custom stats either.

But the subrace stats and the level adjustment for drow are in fact lore-consistent. Strictly speaking there's nothing which says the average drow aren't still more powerful than your average Anyone Else. But people in this thread are measuring against cream of the crop adventurers. And no there's nothing to say that drow adventurers should be proportionately more powerful, because of exponentials and power curves etc. Better to just think drow commoners are superior to other commoners and it all settles into the lore a bit better.

Galenson wrote:

I have gathered only two things from this thread:

A) no matter how you word it, every post suggesting a change to the ECL has been with a build purpose in mind. Essentially, "i want my Drow subrace to compliment my build because its not doing that right now." and

That's the entire point - The extra ability bonuses they get are suppose to emulate how dangerous and/or ruthlessly intelligent/beautiful the drow are and how they are in truth one of the most powerful races there is!
Yet in the NWN context it just fucks_them_sideways.

This has everything with building to do. Because every damn time a Drow PC takes on a Non-drow pc they are going to be at a disadvantage because of the way ECL works.
Having +1 ECL doesn't affect them very much but ECL +2 severely hampers them.

I posted a very VERY Long list of the consequences of having ECL +2 instead of +1. They get -1Universal save, -1BAB, -1/2 Epic feats, No hellball, Skill ceiling dropped by 2, Two less levels of skillpoints, -60HP, No winterwight, and SEVERELY LESS BUILD FLEXIBILITY.
The build flexibility is what the topic is about!

* How does that make up for +4 Ability points and some Spell resistance(Which you can dispell?)

(Off topic argument) What i am trying to say is that everytime a drow faces another race, they have a disadvantage and players know this. There's a reason people play paladins, They are interesting and awesome to play, but they also get +40 Saves and run around with 55 AB and 65-70 AC all day long.

(Comparison!)
Compare drow to the Aasimar subrace. They have +4 Ability bonus and only get +1ECL.
Drow have +4 Ability bonus, The spell resistance, and a TON of negative effects that follows having 2 less levels to play with.

Im trying to say that all these negative bonuses should TAKE OUT the fact that they get +2ECL.

Drow stats aren't really justified by the fact that they get a -2 con and light vulnerability. They're powerful, so that argument isn't very strong. They have an innate darkness power if I recall correctly, and their spell resistance is kind of awesome.

I mean I'll agree to disagree here. Amia wants balance, but I still don't think drow (surface or underdark) should be balanced. But Amia wants balance.

The only way we can make drowuch more powerful than the other races would mean they become a pure NPC race.

And I would wager no drow player wants that.

What? How is that even an argument.

Let me really push the boundaries here. I will take aasimar as my comparison class because everybody uses it.

Aasimar Pros

+2WIS
+2CHA

Aasimar cons

Drow pros

Drow cons

Let's match them to eachother.
Aasimar cons

- 30 Less hp

- Skill ceiling dropped by 1

- 1 less epic feat

Drow

+2CHA

+2INT

+2DEX

Spell resistance

Drow cons

-2CON

-1AB/Search/spot outdoors

-1Universal save

-1/2 Epic feats

-1 Basic Attack bonus (BAB)

- No winterwight

- No hellball

- Skill ceiling dumped by 2.

- 60 less hp

Aasimar have no other bonuses now
Drow have

Drow cons are still

//Ps I did not count drow/aasimar racial spell.

My answer was to bobof, not you.

Alas Sune already said it won't be changed. Which means it won't be changed.

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

My answer was to bobof, not you.

Alas Sune already said it won't be changed. Which means it won't be changed.

Yes but as many many DM "Final words" the team forgets to explain, in the most simple terms, Why it cannot be changed?
I thought something good would come out of This topic where the player-base specifically requested more transparency.

They have explained it. A lot. You're not listening/reading. They are not getting their ECL lowered because they would be OP. And yes, to make drow OP as a PC race is unfair to other PC races. People would make drow just so they could wholesale slaughter people and get into PvP because they know they are flat out better. Okay, it's not quite as drastic as that, but it's nearly.

I play a drow as one of my mains (obviously) and I freaking love her. She beatsticked three Surfacers (one by themselves and then two more directly after at the same time) that were spelled up decently. Zrae had little spells on her, didn't even use Divine Shield/Favor/Power/Battletide, and that's without being a melee focused build (ie she has even less AB than she could). Granted they were not max level (she would have been toast, just like any other PC), however one was a paladin (thank God she didn't get smited, hah!) which was the first one she felled. It took patience and cunning to drop them and it worked. That was done with a DM there as part of a DM event, so it was all gravy as well.

Drow could use some love, sure, but not in the extreme sense. Serby got it right when he said you have to remember we are all comparing drow to adventurers. Typically, drow prey on people below their CR (which is what makes them so hard) and they do so with the numbers advantage. Evil cunning goes a long way.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Give all drow Faerie Fire
Make it impossible to reduce their SR
Make all ECL races able to max their skills at 33 (if possible)

They are simple changes and would do a lot to add flavor back to drow without making them OP. Plus, having all ECL races not be hampered by being unable to max their skills (it's really silly that they can't, doesn't make any sense to me) would be a boon.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Aasimar have no other bonuses now
Drow have

Drow cons are still

//Ps I did not count drow/aasimar racial spell.

Drow have 1 AB less, saves are the same.
Aasimars are also subject to banishment, like all outsiders.
Light sensitivity really ain't an issue, drow are UD race and if they do make surface raids, it's by night.

Outsiders also get immune to certain effects, Like dominate person etc.

I really, really dont think whether you can beat other players with a build or not determines if a class or race needs an overhaul.

Myself, I think drow are pretty decent as they are but I can see why a specialized drow necro would like a winterwight, made it can be added on request like 1000 faces for druids and shifters.
Hellball, not so much, not a good spell underground as P three already pointed out.

Making the SR impossible to reduce; only valid deep underground imho. When drow leave their stronghold their spellresistance should be weaker and easier to reduce.

I dont see the point maxing skills at 33. Mechanicly it doesnt matter as tumble and spellcraft cap at 30 which you can attain with any ecl less then 4.
Possibly give ecl races +x to concentration and dicipline where x is their ecl whem they reach max level/ epic level. It otherwise may be nice for rp but I am not sure its worth the effort for such a small thing (Unless I missed something.)

Very_Svensk wrote:

Why it cannot be changed?

Amarice-Elaraliel wrote:

Sune already said it won't be changed. Which means it won't be changed.

Adding the LA to casterlevel when determining what you summon is easy, however changing the requisites on feats such as hellball isnt.

Terra_777 wrote:

Adding the LA to casterlevel when determining what you summon is easy, however changing the requisites on feats such as hellball isnt.

I forgot about Winterwight, haha. And yeah, not having hellball makes sense. UNless, of course, someone was specializing to use it on the surface. But nto a huge loss (I never use hellball on my mages, even, haha).

Hudson wrote:

Making the SR impossible to reduce; only valid deep underground imho. When drow leave their stronghold their spellresistance should be weaker and easier to reduce.

I would question if that's lore accurate (I don't have access to any books atm or I'd look), I can't recall reading it anywhere. And if that were the case, might as well not even change SR then since Mord's would come mostly into effect attacking non-drow.

Hudson wrote:

I dont see the point maxing skills at 33. Mechanicly it doesnt matter as tumble and spellcraft cap at 30 which you can attain with any ecl less then 4.
Possibly give ecl races +x to concentration and dicipline where x is their ecl whem they reach max level/ epic level. It otherwise may be nice for rp but I am not sure its worth the effort for such a small thing (Unless I missed something.)

Spellcraft takes your INT into account as well, so 33 can be useful as well. But beyond that, being able to max anything would be nice. Not sure if it'd be possible, though, because I would only want it to be effective if you have the skillpoints for it. I don't want to give ECL races free skillpoints (unless the Team doesn't care, lol).

Galenson wrote:

I have gathered only two things from this thread:

A) no matter how you word it, every post suggesting a change to the ECL has been with a build purpose in mind. Essentially, "i want my Drow subrace to compliment my build because its not doing that right now." and

B) (insert your relevent Good Drow bashing here.)

If you're choosing a subrace to compliment your build on a role play server, its advised of you to rethink your strategy to character concept and creation.

Play the subrace because the character appeals to you: take the good with the bad and roll with the punches. Ultra builds are not required to make a difference.

Why did you guys bother balancing anything, including removing stuff from canon and changing it completely for balancing purposes without any RP explanation if you're going to turn around now and say that. That's so hypocritical, especially considering these OOC changes have caused hundreds of OOC rebuilds. Why stop halfway?

Terra_777 wrote:

Adding the LA to casterlevel when determining what you summon is easy, however changing the requisites on feats such as hellball isnt.

Summon caster level adjustment would be a nice quality-of-live improvement and make levelling a bit easier, too. (This coming from someone who hasn't seriously levelled a character in years, though.)

I don't know enough about current server balance to say one way or another, but this much should be recognized: a balance discussion is just that. It's ridiculous to criticize someone for basing a balance argument on mechanical power facts alone. Arguments about role-play have no place in this discussion, to be honest. Whether RP is our primary concern or not (which it probably should be), this is still purely a mechanical balance discussion and must be judged on such grounds only.

Quote:

I don't know enough about current server balance to say one way or another, but this much should be recognized: a balance discussion is just that. It's ridiculous to criticize someone for basing a balance argument on mechanical power facts alone. Arguments about role-play have no place in this discussion, to be honest. Whether RP is our primary concern or not (which it probably should be), this is still purely a mechanical balance discussion and must be judged on such grounds only.

This. I have no idea why this needed to be said, but I'm glad it did, yet again.

I did not even consider the caster levels... You get 2 less IGMS Missiles, Your familar is weaker, the spells do not last as long, they lack the same spell penetration...

Drow from the perspective of Player versus Environment/Monsters are one of the strongest races available due to their innate class covering Spell Resistance and the fact that very few creatures on Amia use SR lowering spells. The +2 ECL is reflective of that, and I haven't actually seen the mechanic looked at with objectivity with regards to that point, at least in this thread, though you may correct me if I'm wrong. This entire thread seems based more upon Player versus Player interactions.

Quote:

Why did you guys bother balancing anything, including removing stuff from canon and changing it completely for balancing purposes without any RP explanation if you're going to turn around now and say that.

Kind of wondering what you are referring to with regards to removing stuff from canon and changing it completely?

MoshingChris wrote:

Drow from the perspective of Player versus Environment/Monsters are one of the strongest races available due to their innate class covering Spell Resistance and the fact that very few creatures on Amia use SR lowering spells.

I agree. It lets you save tons of gold and ignore a lot of common threats. You even resist some high-end traps, or at least used to.

Last edited by RaveN on Tue, Oct 01 2013, 16:50 PM, edited 1 time in total.

I disagree -- the ECL gap means you have to fight monsters that are higher level to compensate for the XP gap. Once you're max level, the actual SR is useless against bosses in PvE as well. You might resist a few more spells in the interim of PvM vs mobs, but you're still forced to fight things 2 levels higher to get the same level of XP, meaning from a pure PvM leveling spread, you'll always level slower than someone with ECL, unless you're quite crafty at abusing the 5 level gap spread and have summon IX or something of the like to compensate for this disparity. Or, a ridiculously good leveling build/group. The only benefit, I see is being able to wipe out the beholder cave where others can't. But those people don't because they can just farm the abyss, and quicker.

As to your curiosity, there's dozens, but I'll just say "Devastating Critical", simply because I'm at work and I don't want to comb through every spell and feat change.

Yes. This thread is based upon PvP interaction. I thought that was super clear ?

Muspelkvist wrote:

Yes. This thread is based upon PvP interaction.

It doesn't have to be! I think drow are worse in PvM as well. =/

IronAngel wrote:

MoshingChris wrote:

Drow from the perspective of Player versus Environment/Monsters are one of the strongest races available due to their innate class covering Spell Resistance and the fact that very few creatures on Amia use SR lowering spells.

I agree. It lets you save tons of gold and ignore a lot of common threats. You even resist some high-end traps, or at least used to.

Much to Liress' glee in the Abyss, you still can.

95% of this thread is a discussion about a non-issue.

Sune says the ecl will not be touched, and i completely agree with that, because drow racial mechanics are canon.

The issue i have is not about the ecl hindering powerbuilds. I don't give a damn about that.

What i can't stand is the unjust treatment of ecl+2 races in regards to Amia-specific mechanics.

For me the main issue is:
-> Kiaransaleeans have no access to Winterwight,
-> Ghaunadaurites have no access to Epic Wild Shape IV,
-> Vhaeraunites are lousy Shadowdancers because of how Epic Shadowfiend scaling works.

Aeqvinox wrote:

For me the main issue is:
-> Kiaransaleeans have no access to Winterwight,
-> Ghaunadaurites have no access to Epic Wild Shape IV,
-> Vhaeraunites are lousy Shadowdancers because of how Epic Shadowfiend scaling works.

These would be lovely things to fix for ECL races. Also:

Naivatkal wrote:

Give all drow Faerie Fire
Make it impossible to reduce their SR
Make all ECL races able to max their skills at 33 (if possible)

Aeqvinox wrote:

95% of this thread is a discussion about a non-issue.

Sune says the ecl will not be touched, and i completely agree with that, because drow racial mechanics are canon.

The genasi are +1 according to canon, are they not? We changed that. Amia can and will probably homebrew in the future, too.

Don't you dare pervert the pure master race.

Very_Svensk wrote:

Aeqvinox wrote:

95% of this thread is a discussion about a non-issue.

Sune says the ecl will not be touched, and i completely agree with that, because drow racial mechanics are canon.

The genasi are +1 according to canon, are they not? We changed that. Amia can and will probably homebrew in the future, too.

Sincerely I'd rather see them returned to +1 ECL than have this "you are outsider so banishment kills you" thing going on now. But then they would probably return to obscurity, just as they were before ECL was removed. I'm not really sure if that's actually a bad thing, considering we had almost 80% of fighters being earth genasi for a while...

Aeqvinox wrote:

95% of this thread is a discussion about a non-issue.

Sune says the ecl will not be touched, and i completely agree with that, because drow racial mechanics are canon.

The issue i have is not about the ecl hindering powerbuilds. I don't give a damn about that.

What i can't stand is the unjust treatment of ecl+2 races in regards to Amia-specific mechanics.

For me the main issue is:
-> Kiaransaleeans have no access to Winterwight,
-> Ghaunadaurites have no access to Epic Wild Shape IV,
-> Vhaeraunites are lousy Shadowdancers because of how Epic Shadowfiend scaling works.

+1

GreatPigeon wrote:

Everyone is pretty much saying they think its worth +1 but not +2.

Not really sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Other than a very tiny vocal minority of obvious drow players, most here agree that there is no way this race is ECL +1. I mean, objectively look at other ECL +1 races vs drow and say that w/ a straight face. You can't.

My only gripe is a legitimate lore one which is a nonsensical design choice that's easily by shifting winter wight *1* level down.

Ahem. Not all drow players think they should be ECL+1.

Also, not really sure where some people are getting this strange idea that racial SR isn't supposed to be dropped by spells. It very much *is* in both PnP *and* NWN. Only monk SR gets that pass in canon and that's because monk abilities aren't based on *magic.*

As for all the surfacer drow, I was under the impression they lost all their faerzess powered goodies like they are supposed to. No wonder there's so many, they're keeping the mechanical benefits of the race and shedding the underdark drawback.

MightNMagic wrote:

Also, not really sure where some people are getting this strange idea that racial SR isn't supposed to be dropped by spells. It very much *is* in both PnP *and* NWN.

I cannot find anywhere that says Mord's lowers any SR in PnP. Do you have a source? The only information I can find about lowering SR is that a creature can voluntarily lower it's own SR, that's it.

Naivatkal wrote:

Ahem. Not all drow players think they should be ECL+1.

If you're referring to my post, it says "vocal minority of obvious drow players," not "every drow player posting here."

Most drow (and otherwise) players here seem to agree that it is obviously a +2 race.

Most of the complaint seems to be 2 or 3 guys spinning a +4 net ability bonus race as not worth it, all the while trying to sell us that SR is so useless it should be free just so they can make a few more powerbuilds.

Biased Balance Discussion - The Drow ECL level

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