AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

If you're going to be overt about your faith, then put up with the fact it will have consequences.
If you're going to be covert about your faith, then enjoy the fact it won't have consequences.

If you're already an established member of a banned faction, well, there's nothing you can do, really. Though you can go about changing your appearance, both mundanely and with magic!

You also can't expect to be overtly evil in certain cities. Kohl, obviously. Bendir/Winya is another. Uhm/Wharftown is questionable, and I forsee Cordor being more open so long as you don't fuck with their shit. Maybe Cordor will be like the Wiltun of A, lol.

Nah, Wiltun is cooler 'cause overt oppression.

This might seem a silly question but, when's the last time you read a FR novel where a group of known necromancers (for example) waltzed openly through Waterdeep without expecting to run into trouble. Maybe not the best example but here's my point. One of the most in-depth characters I've ever played was a neutral to good aligned elf who made some bad (and some good) decisions and wound up as a member of a clearly evil army. The reasons for this would be lengthy to explain but aren't really important for this point. The point is, even though this evil army was big and powerful and overtly evil, whether there was one or two of us or ten of us around at once, we never expected to go into the "good" cities. Whenever we expected to run into a force from the good cities, we would always come out in force, meet on neutral ground (whether it be in an exploratory hunt or training exercise or "diplomatic" meeting) and we would always be prepared. But never would we expect to enter a good city without prior approval from their "side" because as many as we were, there were just as many as them, plus all the NPCs to be found in their cities. It didn't matter though, because why would we want to spend time with a bunch of paladins and preachy clerics on their home turf anyway? Does Szass Tsam ever stroll into Aglarond to have tea as his favorite diner there?

Now, I can understand the desire to enter the "opposing side's" cities to gather intel... but wouldn't it be neat if overt evil went to secretive evil and said, "Hey, our intel on this person is a little outdated. See what you can find out?" And then lo and behold you generate RP while negotiating over a price, you involve more people than just yourselves and generate RP for the person you just hired, and you actually get some co-operation between evils perhaps. You even get the fun of figuring out just how valid the person's intel is and whether you can trust them or not, which is always a fun dance that evil has to do.

I'm sure I haven't covered nearly every eventuality here, but essentially my question is, why would you expect to or even want to go into a good city that you're banned from, as an evil character? I would argue that it's entirely unnecessary and even a bit anti-thesis if you're playing overt evil. And if you're playing secretive evil chances are you aren't banned anyway (or know someone who isn't).

Wiltun seems medieval feudalism at its finest to me.

Doesnt seem to be 'evil' though. Just brutal and uncaring for the lower classes.

I actually like this type of a setting (brutal overlordship) FAR more then I enjoy a city who seems to be evil for evils sake (The muhahaha we're so evil, lets kill some of our own people for giggles.)
Heck, its probably much more defensible morally as well (Yeah, the peasants prefer it this way, law and order and all, Crime? No, dont have that much after we hung the last one) when Paladins come calling.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

Nah, Wiltun is cooler 'cause overt oppression.

As a player of a Warden, I support this :twisted:

Hudson wrote:

Wiltun seems medieval feudalism at its finest to me.

Doesnt seem to be 'evil' though. Just brutal and uncaring for the lower classes.

Actually, it's essentially just highly structured. The Jarl's will is law and the Wardens are the elite that enforce it. The lower classes are cared about (far as I know), it's just if you break the law you are getting some wicked punishment.

Cared for as long as they pay (likely very high) taxes to fuel the Jarls war machine

I bet he cares squat for commoners but he seems them as usefull tools and sources of coin. Thats a sort of 'evil' I really like.

Glim:

If we're talking canon, Banites have an entire Zhentil Keep for the Banites to meander in, until they decide to move on something, or at least a real ability to instill fear into people (i.e. they don't think "oh I'll just respawn"). There's actually a real city, with tons of people. It's really hard to do things that work in canon, on Amia, because fear, and being afraid to die is optional on Amia. Most of the time, it's not only optional, but enacted.

Not to mention that even if evil did come to a city openly, which it has, and is the opening plot for so many NWN games and canon plots, they don't ever start off with "The evil forces encounter 50 invincible guards of good that instantly win." And that's exactly what happens on Amia.

We should add Zhentil Keep to the module.

Naivatkal wrote:

We should add Zhentil Keep to the module.

Please, god, no. Lets not do that. Lets just add death penalties instead.

I'm not complaining about not being able to go to these places. I'm simply explaining why those rules do not apply to overt evil. I've been playing evil since I joined this server. I'm well aware of dealing with the consequences of my actions.

Also, having all evil centred into a single RP hub is a bad idea. There should be multiple RP hubs for evil, like there are for good and neutral characters (eg Bendir, Kohlingen, Cordor) note that all of these are on A, and claiming that there are RP hubs on B is futile because people always log on A over B. I don't care for evil-only RP hubs though. I would prefer something that was completely neutral, like what Cordor used to be, when it was considered the city of tolerance, so you could get that conflict RP without resorting to PvP. Plus it would make recruitment to factions a lot easier too. In fact I think most of my characters were recruited to some cause or another in Cordor, before they were banned.

A place for evil to hang out without getting banned but not exactly being loved and adored is something to be considered I think. Hopefully I (and friends) can create such a place in the future.

Needled247 wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

We should add Zhentil Keep to the module.

Please, god, no. Lets not do that. Lets just add death penalties instead.

But it would give evil another hub, and also could spark some Banite stuff. I dunno, it'd be neat to see the Keep and actually wander around a LE environment.

Really it was just something that hit me and I figured I would toss it out there, hah.

Oh and Glim, the whole of Thay is pretty open about their slavery and evil-doings. Same could be considered for the City of Shadows, and various other locations. Doesn't apply to everywhere, but generalisations cannot be spread across everything just because it happens in one instance. Some societies may even have deep respect for Necromancers for communing with the dead, rather than going around raising armies and burning things. It could be considered more of a cultural difference, and something that receives grand amounts of respect.

Last edited by RaveN on Thu, Oct 03 2013, 17:17 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Naivatkal wrote:

Needled247 wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

We should add Zhentil Keep to the module.

Please, god, no. Lets not do that. Lets just add death penalties instead.

But it would give evil another hub, and also could spark some Banite stuff. I dunno, it'd be neat to see the Keep and actually wander around a LE environment.

Really it was just something that hit me and I figured I would toss it out there, hah.

I don't trust the Amian population to understand the concept of fear as it is now, and adding Zhentil Keep to it, would just give me a headache. Not to mention it wouldn't give "evil" another hub. Just Banites, mostly. Which is kind of the problem with Tarkuul.

It also would require so much extensive RP training just to be able to handle that area (as a DM) since that place has an insanely large and complicated history that I think only a few people know anything about.

Naivatkal wrote:

Needled247 wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

We should add Zhentil Keep to the module.

Please, god, no. Lets not do that. Lets just add death penalties instead.

But it would give evil another hub, and also could spark some Banite stuff. I dunno, it'd be neat to see the Keep and actually wander around a LE environment.

Really it was just something that hit me and I figured I would toss it out there, hah.

I'd rather not have Zhentil Keep, and instead build our own society. Building Zhentil Keep would probably end up just being another memory waste where people rarely travel on B. Especially because the Banite faction is busy not wasting their time in Zhentil Keep, and those are really the only people that would linger around there, except for people who run about looking at merchants and stuff. Prime example of this is the Shadowscape.

jimbono1 wrote:

Oh and Glim, the whole of Thay is pretty open about their slavery and evil-doings. Same could be considered for the City of Shadows, and various other locations. Doesn't apply to everywhere, but generalisations cannot be spread across everything just because it happens in one instance. Some societies may even have deep respect for Necromancers for communing with the dead, rather than going around raising armies and burning things. It could be considered more of a cultural difference, and something that receives grand amounts of respect.

Certainly could.

Cordor is standing before quite a juncture right now and the way I see it could go multiple ways from here. It likely wont be Zhentil Keep II but it defenitely can become a haven for shadier types.

Also, with some coercion places as Wiltun could go the lawfull evil way, as I understand its Lawful neutral at best at the moment.

I wouldnt say options are limited but it does need action ingame.

Hudson wrote:

Cordor is standing before quite a juncture right now and the way I see it could go multiple ways from here. It likely wont be Zhentil Keep II but it defenitely can become a haven for shadier types.

Also, with some coercion places as Wiltun could go the lawfull evil way, as I understand its Lawful neutral at best at the moment.

I wouldnt say options are limited but it does need action ingame.

I agree that Cordor is quite the juncture. Though I will say that "shadier" types don't need any other places to go. They're not actually banned from anywhere to begin with, according to that rule.

Adding Zhentil keep would accomplish nothing since Zhentil keep has basically decided not to acknowledge Amian banites because of the failure of the church in the past.

Zhentil Keep, Thay, etc... All those big, bad, overt organizations work because of space. None of them are sitting on the doorsteps of good, militaristic nations. They all have some nice geograpical barriers to make wiping them out problematic.

Amia on the other hand is a tiny little island, crowded w/ already established nations.

If I were making an evil faction, my secret lair would make use of extradimensional space and keyed portals, like so many smart villains. Estate transferance is awesome!

MightNMagic wrote:

Zhentil Keep, Thay, etc... All those big, bad, overt organizations work because of space. None of them are sitting on the doorsteps of good, militaristic nations. They all have some nice geograpical barriers to make wiping them out problematic.

Amia on the other hand is a tiny little island, crowded w/ already established nations.

If I were making an evil faction, my secret lair would make use of extradimensional space and keyed portals, like so many smart villains. Estate transferance is awesome!

Not to mention Zhentil Keep's army is absolutely massive and well trained and led by some of the most powerful NPC's.

Anyways. I'm not sure adding a secret layer with cool portals and stuff is any better than just going inside of a rental house. They're equally exclusive of every other evil who's not part of your faction. That's really the problem; exclusion, and by making entrance and sustainability so difficult, you're not fixing the problem, just creating another one.

Assuming people can get around 'no one ever goes to Bmia' I think the best place for evil to flourish is Endir's point in the frozenfar. Small town of settlers with no apparent government. No apparent real allies (that I'm aware of). Close to mines and forests where you can get iron to make weapons, and wood to make buildings. Expressly mentioned in the lore threads as being in the region of the world where people go when they've been kicked out of everywhere else. Kinda like an old west frontier town with more frostbite.

It'd make a really awesome pirate port or something assuming you don't just get every evil faction murdering one another over it.

At the very least, a base somewhere like Shadowscape or Darkhold is a good choice. Or even, taking over one of those cruddy little islands w/ horrible names as a base. They have bupkiss for military or PC presence and so long as you keep your mouth shut and quietly recruit you should be fine.

And w/ patience grow to the point you no longer need to hide.

MightNMagic wrote:

At the very least, a base somewhere like Shadowscape or Darkhold is a good choice. Or even, taking over one of those cruddy little islands w/ horrible names as a base. They have bupkiss for military or PC presence and so long as you keep your mouth shut and quietly recruit you should be fine.

And w/ patience grow to the point you no longer need to hide.

The sort of patience you are looking for is literally several years if you are considering recruiting yourself. Or at least the past has proved that anyway.

Zhentil Keep didn't spring wholecloth from from the ground w/ an army. It was a site carefully chosen and kept quiet until they recruited enough bodies to hold it. Just because one evil, doesn't give one a free settlement and carte blanche on effort and smart practice.

And if one is going to meta the mechanics of housing as some sort of unassailable Fort Knox of evil in the heart of a normal city, I'm sure a DM will have little trouble disabusing the notion a flimsy townhouse is much for the guard.

So you either need massive immediate concerted effort (and a buttload of resources) to create a safe haven for the badguys that isn't very specific to a particular play style like Tarkuul, or else work very slowly for years during which at any moment you could just be randomly jumped by other already established opposition and have your effort and patience ruined.

Murkoph wrote:

So you either need massive immediate concerted effort (and a buttload of resources) to create a safe haven for the badguys that isn't very specific to a particular play style like Tarkuul, or else work very slowly for years during which at any moment you could just be randomly jumped by other already established opposition and have your effort and patience ruined.

Yes, and yes.

So... In the experience of everyone that isn't relatively new at this like me, does evil ever actually have the chance to mete out the same damage that good can do to them? Ruin what they worked for in turn?

Murkoph wrote:

So... In the experience of everyone that isn't relatively new at this like me, does evil ever actually have the chance to mete out the same damage that good can do to them? Ruin what they worked for in turn?

Some people might argue yes -- I'd argue no, with a emphasis on "maybe". I haven't seen it happen yet, in 5 years, but there's a sliver of a chance that it might.

Needled247 wrote:

Murkoph wrote:

So... In the experience of everyone that isn't relatively new at this like me, does evil ever actually have the chance to mete out the same damage that good can do to them? Ruin what they worked for in turn?

Some people might argue yes -- I'd argue no, with a emphasis on "maybe". I haven't seen it happen yet, in 5 years, but there's a sliver of a chance that it might.

Personally I will expand upon that and say that in the past (before I arrived and maybe a bit after) that evil didn't really have a chance. There were 'things' that occurred in the server's history that prevented it. But lately there has been a big push by the Team to help evil out, and so I'm of the mind that currently and in the future yes evil has a chance.

The issue is that a lot of the people that liked playing evil before have been sadly demoralized by the events of the past. Hasn't deterred me, though! I just face a lack of time issue, haha. But I'm slowly working on it.

Needled247 wrote:

Murkoph wrote:

So... In the experience of everyone that isn't relatively new at this like me, does evil ever actually have the chance to mete out the same damage that good can do to them? Ruin what they worked for in turn?

Some people might argue yes -- I'd argue no, with a emphasis on "maybe". I haven't seen it happen yet, in 5 years, but there's a sliver of a chance that it might.

Despite me not playing evil anymore (Other than Liress who's more "bitch" than "evil"), no. No, it really doesn't.

Has there ever been one particular event in which bad guys had a real victory type of thing? I always hear about victories at Wyrmhold, or the destruction of the banite temple/fortress/whatever it was. Is there any sort of badguy equivalent that wasn't done by a DM's npc's?

Murkoph wrote:

So... In the experience of everyone that isn't relatively new at this like me, does evil ever actually have the chance to mete out the same damage that good can do to them? Ruin what they worked for in turn?

We can mete out events for destroying things, but usually they are very short lived in comparison to what Good does against evil. (eg Nathano, Mathan and Jayla attacking and 'destroying' the temple of Lathander in Nes'ek, and it going mostly unnoticed some several years ago and the entire event in Caraigh in which Ceyrens Mill was destroyed and the Asylum was apparently unable to be damaged along with the Shadowflame keep, vs the destruction of the Fortress of Bane in Guldorand, the destruction of Wyrmhold, the Destruction of the Banite Temple in Wharftown, and the closing of the Sanctuary of Sin, which isn't inherently evil but not a place for do-gooders either.)

Glim wrote:

This might seem a silly question but, when's the last time you read a FR novel where a group of known necromancers (for example) waltzed openly through Waterdeep without expecting to run into trouble. Maybe not the best example but here's my point. One of the most in-depth characters I've ever played was a neutral to good aligned elf who made some bad (and some good) decisions and wound up as a member of a clearly evil army. The reasons for this would be lengthy to explain but aren't really important for this point. The point is, even though this evil army was big and powerful and overtly evil, whether there was one or two of us or ten of us around at once, we never expected to go into the "good" cities. Whenever we expected to run into a force from the good cities, we would always come out in force, meet on neutral ground (whether it be in an exploratory hunt or training exercise or "diplomatic" meeting) and we would always be prepared. But never would we expect to enter a good city without prior approval from their "side" because as many as we were, there were just as many as them, plus all the NPCs to be found in their cities. It didn't matter though, because why would we want to spend time with a bunch of paladins and preachy clerics on their home turf anyway? Does Szass Tsam ever stroll into Aglarond to have tea as his favorite diner there?

Now, I can understand the desire to enter the "opposing side's" cities to gather intel... but wouldn't it be neat if overt evil went to secretive evil and said, "Hey, our intel on this person is a little outdated. See what you can find out?" And then lo and behold you generate RP while negotiating over a price, you involve more people than just yourselves and generate RP for the person you just hired, and you actually get some co-operation between evils perhaps. You even get the fun of figuring out just how valid the person's intel is and whether you can trust them or not, which is always a fun dance that evil has to do.

I'm sure I haven't covered nearly every eventuality here, but essentially my question is, why would you expect to or even want to go into a good city that you're banned from, as an evil character? I would argue that it's entirely unnecessary and even a bit anti-thesis if you're playing overt evil. And if you're playing secretive evil chances are you aren't banned anyway (or know someone who isn't).

Now, if only we had the playerbase to support evil PC armies, then maybe we'd actually have a pool of people to RP with

Murkoph wrote:

Has there ever been one particular event in which bad guys had a real victory type of thing? I always hear about victories at Wyrmhold, or the destruction of the banite temple/fortress/whatever it was. Is there any sort of badguy equivalent that wasn't done by a DM's npc's?

I mean, I guess we blew up Actand once. But I don't think that counts because no PC actually gave a shit.

As far as actually impacting the actual server plot? No, everything was done by DM's, or not at all. It was all minor things. It's not that we didn't try, it's mostly that the DM team would just ignore us until we did something else instead. People on Amia like to complain that evil likes to "destroy things" instead of build them, when in truth, I think "good" has actually successfully destroyed far more things than evil has simply because of the good:evil imbalance dynamic of (mostly) the fault of the playerbase and DM team(s).

Needled247 wrote:

Murkoph wrote:

Has there ever been one particular event in which bad guys had a real victory type of thing? I always hear about victories at Wyrmhold, or the destruction of the banite temple/fortress/whatever it was. Is there any sort of badguy equivalent that wasn't done by a DM's npc's?

I mean, I guess we blew up Actand once. But I don't think that counts because no PC actually gave a shit.

As far as actually impacting the actual server plot? No, everything was done by DM's, or not at all. It was all minor things. It's not that we didn't try, it's mostly that the DM team would just ignore us until we did something else instead. People on Amia like to complain that evil likes to "destroy things" instead of build them, when in truth, I think "good" has actually successfully destroyed far more things than evil has simply because of the good:evil imbalance dynamic of (mostly) the fault of the playerbase and DM team(s).

So... no one who was not a part of one of the good or at least neutral aligned factions has ever made a difference on these servers. And the only way that specifically evil groups have managed to survive is to live in a state of isolation, or non-interference; both of which are positions which prevent them from participating in the server's plot, such as it is. Any groups which have acted overtly have been thoroughly hammered down, and haven't been enabled to have any appreciable effect upon the world, as such are lacking incentive to act overtly ever again.

It's all stick and no carrot, I guess.

Weeell. I wouldn't say that we accomplished nothing. In Tarkuul we did a bunch of things that ended up being constructive (often literally). Elsewhere there have been successful, low-key missions by unambiguously evil-aligned parties, though the successes were in DM events and mostly affected NPCs, which rules it out. The Slavers did okay, even though I guess you might consider a successful auction the equivalent of an Evil Bakesale, but they did succeed in making a name for themselves. The one drow raid I've been a part of in all my time on this server, was successful. I mean we all got away anyway. I don't know what we were setting out to accomplish, but it worked.

On the spy circuit most of our biggest accomplishments involve finding out certain secrets, only to find we're either not in a position to make use of them. There was notably a few murders and abductions which left a lasting impression (even though no one stayed dead really). So yeah, stuff was accomplished, just not what a lot of people are after.

Part of this is because we can't get our shit together. But we could certainly use more DM support to get some more interesting results.

Last edited by Anatida on Thu, Oct 03 2013, 20:11 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Murkoph wrote:

So... no one who was not a part of one of the good or at least neutral aligned factions has ever made a difference on these servers. And the only way that specifically evil groups have managed to survive is to live in a state of isolation, or non-interference; both of which are positions which prevent them from participating in the server's plot, such as it is. Any groups which have acted overtly have been thoroughly hammered down, and haven't been enabled to have any appreciable effect upon the world, as such are lacking incentive to act overtly ever again.

It's all stick and no carrot, I guess.

^ ^ THIS ^ ^ really sums up all 7 pages of this topic, doesn't it?

Naivatkal wrote:

The issue is that a lot of the people that liked playing evil before have been sadly demoralized by the events of the past.

I think this is a larger issue than people realize. I've thus far seen that when confronted with challenges and obstacles, there's the tendency for the disparate evil types to treat it as an immediate defeat, and simply lock up and shut down. Perhaps there's a good reason for that, but I think with the new blood on the team and the new plots cropping up there is a big opportunity for an evil revival.

Regardless of the past, I can say with confidence that there is now a very real and concrete chance at success for those who can get the player interest and put the effort in. There will be obstacles, challenges, and you'll have to use common sense of course, but the opportunity is there.

Anatida wrote:

Murkoph wrote:

So... no one who was not a part of one of the good or at least neutral aligned factions has ever made a difference on these servers. And the only way that specifically evil groups have managed to survive is to live in a state of isolation, or non-interference; both of which are positions which prevent them from participating in the server's plot, such as it is. Any groups which have acted overtly have been thoroughly hammered down, and haven't been enabled to have any appreciable effect upon the world, as such are lacking incentive to act overtly ever again.

It's all stick and no carrot, I guess.

^ ^ THIS ^ ^ really sums up all 7 pages of this topic, doesn't it?

Uhhh...the Banites got the Warknights booted out of their fort, and helped crush an ongoing rebellion in Ostland. As a result they've -drastically- altered the terms of the war with Wiltun and changed the course of the entire plot.

But this goes right along with my previous post, it's almost as if as a group we're so tied up on the defeats that we can't see the victories because of them, yes we've had our noses bloodied. And yes, there's still going to be losses in the future, as well as victories. But if we can't be bothered to even try anymore, then what are we debating?

I think this has become far more an issue of morale than anything else with the current state of things.

I'm not involved in that plot, nor have I seen any other mention of it here. So with that and your previous post, Ego, I say Kuddos, and I look forward to a new frontier!

The Banites didn't just boot them from the fort, they just about wiped the whole faction player base off of Amia!

... You guys forget that Shadowscape exists too, in terms of places to do non-nice things. It is quite literally the shadiest place on the servers...

Anyway, I dont like this idea of “you can only be evil in an evil settlement.” It is the exact reason I do not like explicitly labeling any settlement too much. Hell, people dont even realize a lot of the thinking that went into the Kohlingen update was geared at attracting other alignments than good. That is one of the reasons why you get to see so much of the area outside of the gleaming city, where the everyday folk live. There is so much potential there for anything in all the new districts, yet a lot of players shy away from it because Kohlingen is known as the Good settlement. AKA dont bothering going there unless your armor is shiny and your nose is clean, which really is a detriment to all the care and thought that went into making it feel like a more real settlement. Even if there is a strong theme of in its rhetoric and the folks in charge, a city is made of up more than the head-honchos, and that is the fun of a settlement. Not a static rock upon which things just happen. But a waterbed sort of deal with dozens of people jumping on it, maybe most in the same direction, but you still have other people and elements that make contrary ripples.

The same can be said for Tarkuul. There could easily be a small faction there trying to aid the natives in repenting their ways. Or maybe a group who happens to live there for the research opportunities, but really are very against some of the things the city is up to. We as a playerbase waste tons of RP potential when we resolve that settlements are supposed to dictate what takes place, rather than serve as backdrops and stages for whatever action happens to take place there.

Ego680 wrote:

But this goes right along with my previous post, it's almost as if as a group we're so tied up on the defeats that we can't see the victories because of them, yes we've had our noses bloodied. And yes, there's still going to be losses in the future, as well as victories. But if we can't be bothered to even try anymore, then what are we debating?

I think this has become far more an issue of morale than anything else with the current state of things.

I dont think its that bad. Most of the posters on this thread seem to have a positive attitude, especially those I recognize from seeing them ingame.

There are just a few who seem to consider the cause hopeless.

So far a number of issues why evil cant be succesfull passed in the topic and I feel none of them is something a fairly large and determined enough group of dedicated players cant overcome with DM support.
The biggest problem for 'evil' is the sizeble group of players who prefers to play good aligned and they are well connected so thats what you need to think up a solution for.

No amount of discussion can change that though as thats a players choice and one of the few things not even a DM can really change without seriously twisting legs.

Sorry if this has already been said, as there was a lot posted and I admit to only skimming the last 7 pages.

I just wanted to touch up on something mentioned in Glim's thread. Someone posted that they felt conflict RP was often avoided because people don't like to lose. I know that I can't speak for all players who embrace evil characters, but this is just my general reaction to the latter comment:

When I play an evil character, I play with the expectation that I will lose. The good guys win. That is just how it is engraved into my mind. With that said, I wont just roll over so that the good guy can win. He has to earn it. I like to be the biggest and most difficult obstacle the good-guy faces. I like to be the trial that tests the good-guy's conviction, what challenges and makes the path of good a struggle and not always such an easy path to walk. I don't expect it to be easy to play evil either. I expect the good guy to make it just as difficult for me as I am making it for him.

So yes. I am fine with building my evil empire, and then watching it crumble around my character. With that said, I don't appreciate being steamrolled, probably no more than the good-guy does. My point is, everyone needs to stop treating every single battle like its the end-all-be-all. Exchange blows. Win some, and then lose some. Struggle. Allow yourselves to be challenged.

I am not talking about turning a blind eye to those who are blatantly, obviously evil. I am personally a fan of the evil that lives within society, yet is oblivious to their own wickedness or hides it. I praise those who know OOC I am playing evil, but IC will allow their character to be deceived or fooled because I haven't done anything IC to demonstrate or prove that I am evil. I don't want to say that people metagame, as that is a big accusation, but I will say that people sometimes ignore the flaws or limitations of their own characters. I can't tell you how many times I have seen even the smallest hint of something evil brewing, and the whole server (good and evil alike) unites together to trample it simply because they heard a whisper.

Long story short, as someone who plays evil characters, I am prepared to lose, so long as it isn't over night, and so long as I can at least make it challenging. After I have given the good-guys a run for their money, I will gladly bow out. I am not saying evil has to lose, I am just saying that, if the conflict and journey up to that point has been engaging and I faced a worthy opponent, then I have no issues with being defeated.

Well, I'm still kind of an outsider here. Technically I was around back in the old days, but really I was only here on and off. So really I'm still largely a newcomer.

I would really like a chance to get into some evil action. I'm actually working on a nefarious plot with my main character now, though it's still in the planning stage. The project seems due to fizzle out because so far I've only been able to gather one co-conspirator, and there doesn't seem to be much hope in finding any others that would want to take part in it. Then after reading over this threadi can kind of see why there's so little enthusiasm for this sort of thing. From what I've been reading here, any attempt to enact some villainous scheme will just amount to months of preparation for it to be casually swatted down at some point. Hell, I even have reason to suspect that details of my plot have already been leaked to Kohlingen. Which if true is a pretty big hit to morale for such an early stage in a scheme relying on sneaky secrecy.

But, well, are things really so hopeless? I mean, despite the lackluster start to my own schemes, I'd like to think that hard work and guts can still prevail. That if I stick to it consistently and keep a positive attitude, it can start to gain some momentum, then PC and DM alike can eventually recognise it as something interesting and valid. Because Tanzek will save his kin from the genocidal incursions of Bahamut's minions, justice is on his side afterall.

But then again, I'm sure that's how a lot of the other villainous schemes felt about their own projects before they were apparently suddenly crushed by external forces. So.. I dunno. It's a little overwhelming to be honest.

Dark Immolation wrote:

The same can be said for Tarkuul. There could easily be a small faction there trying to aid the natives in repenting their ways. Or maybe a group who happens to live there for the research opportunities, but really are very against some of the things the city is up to. We as a playerbase waste tons of RP potential when we resolve that settlements are supposed to dictate what takes place, rather than serve as backdrops and stages for whatever action happens to take place there.

Personally, as one of the two Tarkuul DMs, I would love to see either eventuality develop and DI is completely correct that such opportunities exist. Just because you don't "fit in" with Tarkuul's "grand design" doesn't mean that there isn't a role to play there, RP to be had and a story to be forged.

Agreed! I'm always looking for more people to try and include (though my work schedule has kept me on at the most awkward times lately) and would love to see people trickle in with their own factions. Hell, just hanging out around there is nice. Not everyone needs to be in the Magisterium or some other faction.

And Tanzek, I think I've been awkward about play times or I would probably approach you IC more.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to lay blame on anyone. I mean I've been pretty spotty over the past few days with getting online with Tanzek. It's just that I'm honestly at a loss as to what to do.

Tanzek wrote:

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wasn't trying to lay blame on anyone. I mean I've been pretty spotty over the past few days with getting online with Tanzek. It's just that I'm honestly at a loss as to what to do.

_Cairn Reborn_ wrote:

With the current climate for evil it's definitely worth making some OOC arrangements if you want to get anywhere fast. PM people on the forums or in-game, don't be shy. I know for a fact that you can be waiting for a very long time to find a kindred evil character if you roll solo.

Being Evil on Amia

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