AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Alright, so... The idea is I'm going for Dragon shape as a 10 druid / 20 shifter.

I can take ONE other shape feat, and I am wondering on suggestions. I was leaning towards dragon and undead shape.

Now, is there any reason I would want outsider, or construct over undead shapes? Anyone have any advise? Thanks.

You will kill yourself if you heal yourself with potions when doing undead shape, as they are positive energy and such react differently to undead creatures. Besides, risen lord has a weakness to blunt weapons, while stone golem has weakness to piercing weapons. Otherwise this might even seem a fair difference, except risen lords weakness is 50% and the golem's 10%

Also, golems have spell level immunities, lots of neat spell likes to be spammed constantly (mass haste for example with stone golem if I remember correctly.)
Outsiders are a completely different matter, Rakshasa is immune to all but level 9 spells, and can spam fireball and ice storm. I hear the death slaad is also neat with its caustic spittle, but I am myself yet to try it. The fire dwarf thingy is not too great, I think?

I think undead shape is good for shifters who do not want to spam their wisdom into ridiculous amounts, and want to concentrate more on multiclassing into other stuff

TeroSNS wrote:

You will kill yourself if you heal yourself with potions when doing undead shape, as they are positive energy and such react differently to undead creatures. Besides, risen lord has a weakness to blunt weapons, while stone golem has weakness to piercing weapons. Otherwise this might even seem a fair difference, except risen lords weakness is 50% and the golem's 10%

Also, golems have spell level immunities, lots of neat spell likes to be spammed constantly (mass haste for example with stone golem if I remember correctly.)
Outsiders are a completely different matter, Rakshasa is immune to all but level 9 spells, and can spam fireball and ice storm. I hear the death slaad is also neat with its caustic spittle, but I am myself yet to try it. The fire dwarf thingy is not too great, I think?

I think undead shape is good for shifters who do not want to spam their wisdom into ridiculous amounts, and want to concentrate more on multiclassing into other stuff

Thank you for the insight. I may go with outsider shape, as Death Slaad (Salad of death?) seems cool. With the summon it gets, and the strange ability to spawn more salads if I read that correctly?

You should have a really careful check of all the factors that each shape brings, even if I have experience on few of the shapes, doesn't mean I am absolutely right about it.

TeroSNS wrote:

You should have a really careful check of all the factors that each shape brings, even if I have experience on few of the shapes, doesn't mean I am absolutely right about it.

You bring good points, that I did not think about. Outsider shapes seem better in the long run for the 'spammable' abilities. Same with the constructs.

EDIT: Question is, is the Rakshasa's Flame strike / Death Slaad's melee and Choas spittle better then Iron Golems Chain lightning and Stone golems mass haste?

Another good point would be to argue once I get dragon, the dragons breath is all the 'spam' spells you need. Something to compliment dragons where they can't go/fit would be good.

First and foremost, true druids wouldn't shapeshift into outsiders or undead in the first place. It would be against the oaths they swear upon becoming druids. However, druids aren't infallible and can fall from grace just as anyone else can. That would just mean that if you pursued a path that was against nature, you would lose all your druidic spells and abilities.

I won't comment on the forms themselves, aside from the fact that each and every epic shape is very good and has at least one area where they excel above other forms.

It's my understanding that outsider shapes are accepted for druidic shifters because they are not really an affront to nature. Outsiders don't belong on the Prime but they are still natural. Undead, of course, are out. I believe the distinction is because undead aren't natural as they are created by evil magic whereas outsiders are not created, rather summoned (in a summoning sense). Course evil outsiders are probably frowned upon.

Sphinx wrote:

First and foremost, true druids wouldn't shapeshift into outsiders or undead in the first place. It would be against the oaths they swear upon becoming druids. However, druids aren't infallible and can fall from grace just as anyone else can. That would just mean that if you pursued a path that was against nature, you would lose all your druidic spells and abilities.

I won't comment on the forms themselves, aside from the fact that each and every epic shape is very good and has at least one area where they excel above other forms.

Hah, I knew someone would bring that up. I am well aware I can't be a 'druid' and have those shapes, nor do I plan to.

This was a question on mechanics not lore.

EDIT: Further questions, are shape abilities based off Druid+Shifter levels? Or Shifter levels alone?

You should also then become aware of the fact that taking more than 5 levels of the druid class would necessiate you to actually be one, barring special circumstances. (DM approval for something out of the norm.)

But if I had to recommend an epic shape out of the three you're looking at, it would be the construct one. It's very decent all around. Also, there is a topic called 'Teach a man to fish' in this forum, it's dedicated to character building.

Always found that strange myself, that a shifter can't come from other 'origins'. However, I might very well go with the construct shapes. They are indeed cool, and the mass haste spam would help any party, no doubt I would become loved in no time.

You can be a non-druidic shapeshifter, but only if you have 5 levels of druid alone. No more, no less.

Sphinx wrote:

You can be a non-druidic shapeshifter, but only if you have 5 levels of druid alone. No more, no less.

Do the druid level effect damage in any form abilities, however? Otherwise- I think I might know what I will do....

EDIT: Can shifter be arcane based? With 5/Druid 20/Shifter 5/Wizard? You could argue that a transmutation wizard who has done nothing but perfect poly morph is the idea behind it?

I don't think so, because there is a clear mechanical distinction between natural shapeshifting and polymorphic spells. The former are supernatural feats, the latter are arcane or natural spells. Spells have distinct limitations and durations, while natural shapeshifting is clearly superior and less limited, being infinite in duration amongst other things. You could however simply make a transmutation focused wizard who specialized in such spells, then later request custom spells when you've accumulated enough dream coins.

Sphinx wrote:

I don't think so, because there is a clear mechanical distinction between natural shapeshifting and polymorphic spells. The former are supernatural feats, the latter are arcane or natural spells. Spells have distinct limitations and durations, while natural shapeshifting is clearly superior and less limited, being infinite in duration amongst other things.

I know this is probably the wrong place to have a lore discussion however...

Then where does a shifter 'start'? I mean, a druid is quite clear. Is it just someone who got good at naturally changing his form via a natural magic, not based in druid divine magic?

Such a thing can be taught, developed and learned, should your character possess an aptitude for it. Just like a druid would, due to being so greatly in tune with nature. There are more routes than one down that path, but you are correct ― this isn't the place for this discussion. I invite you to use the 'Official teach a man to fish' thread for build related questions, and our lore forum for the information about shapeshifting that you seek. I believe we've a thread for shapeshifters already, you could try the search function.

Sphinx wrote:

Such a thing can be taught, developed and learned, should your character possess an aptitude for it. Just like a druid would, due to being so greatly in tune with nature. There are more routes than one down that path, but you are correct ― this isn't the place for this discussion. I invite you to use the 'Official teach a man to fish' thread for build related questions, and our lore forum for the information about shapeshifting that you seek. I believe we've a thread for shapeshifters already, you could try the search function.

Thanks for all your help at any rate. I tried the search function, but it didn't turn up anything. Maybe in the 132 pages of stuff eh?

Also, try not to think about what is the coolest, or the 'best'.
In the end, this is a role-play server, come up with a cool backstory, and figure out what your character would do.
If everyone went with the 'best', there would be a lot less diversity.

KingArthur129 wrote:

Then where does a shifter 'start'? I mean, a druid is quite clear. Is it just someone who got good at naturally changing his form via a natural magic, not based in druid divine magic?

In PnP DnD, I believe the shifter class can be taken by anyone with the ability to take an alternative form. This would include lycanthropes, spellcasters with access to polymorph-like spells and wildshaping druids.

Unfortunately, Bioware only included the druid pathway in Neverwinter Nights. I guess coding all the other variables would've been a tad too much work for what would affect only a small faction of games.

The Silent Whisper wrote:

KingArthur129 wrote:

Then where does a shifter 'start'? I mean, a druid is quite clear. Is it just someone who got good at naturally changing his form via a natural magic, not based in druid divine magic?

In PnP DnD, I believe the shifter class can be taken by anyone with the ability to take an alternative form. This would include lycanthropes, spellcasters with access to polymorph-like spells and wildshaping druids.

Unfortunately, Bioware only included the druid pathway in Neverwinter Nights. I guess coding all the other variables would've been a tad too much work for what would affect only a small faction of games.

I'm not entirely sure about 3.5, but the 3.0 book with Shifters has this:

Quote:

Requirements
To become a shifter, a character must fulfill the following criteria.
Feats: Alertness, Endurance.
Spells: Able to cast 3rd-level spells.
Special: Alternate Form—must either know polymorph self or have a natural alternate form, alter self, polymorph self, shapechange, or wild shape ability.

Sphinx wrote:

You can be a non-druidic shapeshifter, but only if you have 5 levels of druid alone. No more, no less.

umm so this ruled... where?

Its a rule. If you dont believe it I am sure you can find it with a search or by asking a DM nicely.

Because of how the game's coded, even a "non-druid" shifter needs 5 levels of druid. Shifter has wildshaping as one of its prerequisites, which can't be gained in any other way than by druid levels. In recognition of this, you can get away with ignoring your druid levels entirely as long as you don't take any more than the five you need to qualify for shifter levels.

A Druid 5/Shifter 11/Cleric 14, Druid 5/Shifter 11/Wizard 14 or Druid 5/Shifter 10/Sorcerer 15 can be quite valid. Who needs high-tier spells when you've got shapeshifting at your fingertips, 'eh?

Also you can be a total nymph

TeroSNS wrote:

Also you can be a total nymph

... wha?

So they can be arcane based. Awesome. Thanks for your help, i couldn't find any of this myself on the forums.

The rule (as I understand it) is that shifters are neither arcane nor divine, and instead somehow have "natural" shapeshifting. So, their shifting can't be dispelled or seen through with Truesight, because they're in possession of some superior form of shapeshifting.

(I think this is a terrible rule, btw.)

The requirement for shapeshifter in standard dnd is being able to change shape be it by spell or supernatural ability.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/D%26D_Wiki ... e_Class%29

Not to make a fuss about it, but that's a homebrew wiki. Might not be done correctly. They do directly use stuff from the book, but they use so much homebrew stuff. Might wanna just cite the book and page number instead.

D&D 3.0 Oriental Adventures Second Edition page 45. I linked the wiki because the requirements is a direct quote, not sure about the rest as I didnt read it.

TeroSNS wrote:

Sphinx wrote:

You can be a non-druidic shapeshifter, but only if you have 5 levels of druid alone. No more, no less.

umm so this ruled... where?

I don't think I think the DMs have said "no more then 5 druid levels" I was always told back when I more or less caused the "no druid shifter" years ago because DMs disliked the idea of a druid using/focusing on undead form (100% understandable) that I was not to use druid spells,animal companion or OOC druid only items.

Quote:

DCs on Shifter abilities are calculated from a unique formula: 10 + 1/2 of Shifter Level + Wisdom Modifier. In cases where an ability has a duration, it is calculated as Druid + Shifter level. For abilities which have a scaling damage amount, the amount is again calculated as Druid + Shifter level.

Given that druid levels effect duration and scaling damage amount it would be unfair to say you cant have more then 5 druid levels because with how NWN is coded your forced to take 5 levels of something else that would weaken your forms.... so I believe you can be a 10 druid 20 Shifter and not IC be a druid as long as you don't use the spells, companion or OOC druid only items.

Please.. i use this topic for a question about shifters.. this way i do not have to open another thread..... Dragon Shape uses the AC bonus granted to shifters on Amia?

No, you don't get the AC bonus from Shifters when you're using Dragon-Shape.

Last edited by Eizendur on Sat, Oct 05 2013, 0:06 AM, edited 1 time in total.

corypx wrote:

I don't think I think the DMs have said "no more then 5 druid levels" I was always told back when I more or less caused the "no druid shifter" years ago because DMs disliked the idea of a druid using/focusing on undead form (100% understandable) that I was not to use druid spells,animal companion or OOC druid only items.

Can we get DM clarification on this? as it would be nice not to take an BAB penality on top of having two 3/4 BAB classes.

Eizendur wrote:

corypx wrote:

I don't think I think the DMs have said "no more then 5 druid levels" I was always told back when I more or less caused the "no druid shifter" years ago because DMs disliked the idea of a druid using/focusing on undead form (100% understandable) that I was not to use druid spells,animal companion or OOC druid only items.

Can we get DM clarification on this? as it would be nice not to take an AB penality on top of having two 3/4 ab classes.

Well, you still get the 'Damage' boost to your abilities if you take 10/druid 20/Shifter. So i wouldn't call it a complete waste.

Yeah i was refering to the 5 levels of druids thing.. if it could be eased up to 8 or rather let druids get wildshape at 4 i wouldn't object.

as it stands if you want to have shifter 20 in your build you need 10 levels of shifter pre-epic which is an BAB hit on top of the 5 druid BAB hit.

Btw was the Shifter CL for shapes with spells changed here? in vanilla it uses your first class as CL. (if your first class is druid with 5 levels = CL5 , monk or something non-caster = CL1)

Eizendur wrote:

Yeah i was refering to the 5 levels of druids thing.. if it could be eased up to 8 or rather let druids get wildshape at 4 i wouldn't object.

as it stands if you want to have shifter 20 in your build you need 10 levels of shifter pre-epic which is an BAB hit on top of the 5 druid BAB hit.

Btw was the Shifter CL for shapes with spells changed here? in vanilla it uses your first class as CL. (if your first class is druid with 5 levels = CL5 , monk or something non-caster = CL1)

viewtopic.php?f=20&p=934717#p934717

"DC Calculations and Spells:
DCs on Shifter abilities are calculated from a unique formula: 10 + 1/2 of Shifter Level + Wisdom Modifier. In cases where an ability has a duration, it is calculated as Druid + Shifter level. For abilities which have a scaling damage amount, the amount is again calculated as Druid + Shifter level.

Note that metamagic feats do not work on Shifter spells, and Expertise/Improved Expertise cannot be used on Shifter abilities nor spells."

Yeah my view is if they don't want to RP as a druid and only be a shifter but want the forms to get max duration/damage they should have all rights to go 10 druid /20 shifter... if they don't druid spells, animal companion or OOC druid only items, then its really no harm no foul.

But if that is not the case they should just remove all druid levels from calculations so then it wont effect them in a negative way.

I personally don't seem the harm in it either. Someone who wants to just play a 'shifter' (Not druid based) should be able to have the most power from his shifter form. Others have a built in sediment of Class = RP. Which, in some cases is right, but shifter is a different case all together (Due to lore/PnP mechanics/Game mechanics conflicting).

Another question: is dragon shape still useful despite lacking the new shifter AC and such?

Eizendur wrote:

Another question: is dragon shape still useful despite lacking the new shifter AC and such?

I am not sure, not having used it. Buttt.... 35DR and the breath attack should be more then enough to make it formidable. Its AC is fairly high without being edited anyway.

KingArthur129 wrote:

Eizendur wrote:

Another question: is dragon shape still useful despite lacking the new shifter AC and such?

I am not sure, not having used it. Buttt.... 35DR and the breath attack should be more then enough to make it formidable. Its AC is fairly high without being edited anyway.

It has 25/+4, 10/+5 DR not 35 (because DR like this does not stack), and in a lot of DM events it will be bypassed so will do nothing, PVP is more of the same not 100% sure on the high end bosses what their weapons count as, and its AC is not all that good if I recall.

So over all in my mind your better off getting outsider shape, undead shape and/or construct shape instead.

Yeah will do that once the server is back to normal. lol
Thanks - saved me from having to sacrifice alot for 30 wis prereq.

Do note that the dc of all shifter form spell likes depend on wisdom as well, so it is beneficial to have high wisdom either way.

Does it benefit a shifter in any way to have 10 druid levels instead of just 5, compared to multiclassing into something else?

TeroSNS wrote:

Do note that the dc of all shifter form spell likes depend on wisdom as well, so it is beneficial to have high wisdom either way.

Does it benefit a shifter in any way to have 10 druid levels instead of just 5, compared to multiclassing into something else?

Yes but if you want diversity in terms of epic shapes - undead , outsider and construct you simply can't reach 30 wis...

as for 10 levels of druid - it does benefit in terms of getting full 30 level progression for the shifter abilities. however if you want to multiclass something i'd suggest a +1 BAB class to supplement the BAB hits the build takes along the way from druid and shifter being 3/4.

Eizendur wrote:

Yes but if you want diversity in terms of epic shapes - undead , outsider and construct you simply can't reach 30 wis...

according to my own calculations you can have 3 of the epic shapes, including dragon...

I got a question about something Sune wrote in the request form and I am Hyacking this thread for it. Its a somewhat relation though.

Quote:

Hey,

With update 4.16a, the feats Expertise and Improved Expertise no longer function while using Shifter form abilities. Likewise, metamagic feats no longer work on Shifter spells (though they still work on the Druid spells from the levels the Shifter will possess).

Because of this, we're offering free rebuilds to Shifters who already possess these feats, as of the 7th of May 2013. If you wish to rebuild your Shifter, make sure to clearly state you wish a free-rebuild, and also bear in mind you are only allowed to change these feats. You cannot change your level progression, skills or other any unrelated feats.

Thanks for your understanding!

Now, I read dragonshape is a druid form primarily and thus I wonder if expertise does or doesnt work in dragonshape.

Thanks in advance for any answers!

Pretty sure the Expertises work in shifted forms. The post refers to the fact that many people were abusing an exploit that comes in vanilla NWN where you can take and use the Expertises while sitting there spamming shifted form spell-like abilities and breath weapons, essentially getting +5/+10 AC for nothing (since you weren't losing anything to gain it).

That said, a dragon with Expertise should be able to use it while fighting, just not while spamming breath weapons.

^ That's correct.

Awesome! Thanks.

I doubt I will ever use the dragonbreath anyways. Bad for the forest and all

Burn all the forest!

Shifter Suggestions

Who is online