Evil should fear paladins! They're literally the Bane of evil! (pun intended)

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

Ill be keeping a close eye out for team evil. They're the focus of my current plotline.

Team good had the spotlight during our shekat plot. Its only fair team evil gets its turn.

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Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

LG don't mean Lawful Nice, baby.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Horay for team different-set-of-ideals-from-everyone-else!

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Just lurking about!

I am not trolling... but as i said, believe what you will. All im saying is dont count out the banites just yet, yeah we got our asses kicked big time but that does not mean we are not going to come back for round two. Bane would not be the greatest evil god if he gave up after every defeat. A good villian always comes back for more... in Bane's case litterally. He got his ass kicked by Torm and died, but he came back for a rematch despite that. So it shall be with the banite's... we lost the battle but the war has only just began. Look out Amia, we are coming...

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Osmodius Blackstar - Human Necromancer

Tyrannical good guys are my favourite trope.

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I want to see the Torm vs. Bane fight rematch, UFC style.

What I have surmised from this topic sadly, is that evil being something to fear on Amia is a rolling joke. Tsk tsk tsk.

For PCs, yes. For the vast majority of NPC civilians I'm sure evil still scares the dickens out of them XD

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Then maybe something should be done that could -never- be taken as funny.

"Love lost, hearts entwined death is only the beginning if I'm so inclined."- the forgotten evil.

oops lol got carried away there. lolol Be seeing ya!!

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Calypso (Lady Calypso, Caly)
Stormy Dawn (Ar'ellin'ah)
Kisuri'ou Yoru (Ryuko)

Favored Quote:
"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man." -Shakespeare

I like this idea, just battle it out @ Amia and totally wrek the place, leave no city untouched.

*coughwink* gold sink

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When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.

Let's make it, not over.

You've already got high level Plot-marked NPCs with epic gear that can't be killed. What more do you guys want!

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

I dissent - evil is just as boring as good because it is utterly predictable. The good - evil spectrum gets much greater attention in these games, which makes the law - chaos spectrum a likely place for conflict. If there's a peasant rebellion (chaotic, rejecting rightful rulers in favor of anarcho-syndicalist collectives), how does a paladin respond? The LE characters know exactly what to do: march in their and knock heads until the peasants remember what's good for them, but will an LG paladin work alongside an LE character (who doesn't summon fiends or whatever) to maintain law? Or do the grievances of the people come first?

Good - evil has an established script. The Black Hand tries to take over somewhere using the iron fist of Bane, induce rule by fear, the free people rise up and go all War of the Ring on their asses. Even if good is rebuffed, and evil gets a permanent stronghold, then what? You just do it again until it works.

To make things interesting you have to force characters to make an uncomfortable choice, something that challenges their alignment, their principles, their beliefs, their loyalties. For people who enjoy playing an evil character, fair enough. For those who claim evil is necessary to prevent server stagnation, take note: you've been trying to same thing over and over for close to a decade, that's the definition of stagnation. Maybe it's time to create characters that challenge the established order, rather than fill the role of a counterweight within the machine.

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You dare mock the Tibbly one, catcherer of drowses?

To be understood.

Actual meaningful conflict that truly has repercussions that affect other PCs, not just NPCs, and is more than just a few minutes of inconvenience? Perhaps something actually player driven, and not entirely dependent on DM babysitting? People to take things seriously, and roleplay out loss, sorrow, and pain. Perhaps have an impact, a lasting one, that helps shape other peoples stories even after our own has ended, rather than just being a footnote of "Oh, you remember how bad we annihilated those guys"...

To be fair, the DMs have in fact been moving towards more player-driven narratives and conflict and basically everything you have said there. And I can say that as a person who absolutely hated to see Law Knights trotted out back in the day.

The responsibility now mostly fall to players to step up and put their PCs on the line, not because of a DM holding a nice juicy carrot out for them, but because it is what their PC would do, regardless. That goes for good, evil, lawful, or chaotic. I feel that too often players see their PCs as cogs in the machine, rather than the cranks, so to speak. Granted, a DM can paint a very nice landscape for RP to happen in--theme the RP to be confrontational, political, philosophical--we have to get out of the mindset that DMs are required for meaningful interactions and story. Your PC is your PC, whether he is involved in an epic plot to save the world or if he is talking to the sausage vendor on the way to the battlefield.

Now. That's some fancy, flowery words and a rousing call to action enough, but I'll be damned if I and a number of other players and DMs haven't sad much of the same thing over the years. So, I think I will try a different angle of attack, in making suggestions; I will make a few concrete points that, if our group of players strive for, will result in not only a more fluid, dynamic Evil - Good landscape on our server, but just generally a more rich narrative that not only draws people in, but remains regardless of whether or not NPCs and DMs even get involved. Note: this is not me telling other people how to RP. This is me suggesting things that I have found beneficial to my own enjoyment as a player and what others have given praise for in the past:

1. Think as your PC

So often we forget that roleplaying is as much action as it is feeling. What is your PC thinking about as he stands there, motionless on East Cordor Corner? You don't have to get that serious into it, no inner monologues, but just think to yourself, when you're not actively moving him/her around. It helps you do and react to things a lot more germane to your character's personality when you're inside his head, rather than imagining yourself pushing him along at the end of a stick.

2. Remove yourself as a player

It is so easy to get ones feelings hurt over their character being disrespected/beaten/slighted. And that fear may very much keep you from doing anything in which you think they wont succeed. It is not something horrible--hell, I have a very emotional attachment to the PCs I play, and I think that is indicative of creating something you are proud of. Yet, by the very same token, I try to remove myself as a player, in situations that I OoCly might perceive differently from him/her. Try not to care what would make your PC look cooler, stronger, etc, from an objective level. Do what they would do, true to their personality. If that means means being the lv 2 Paladin that flips the bird to the lv 29 Epic BG that you know OoCly has been around forever, then dammit, do it. Its a lot better than selectively turning your PCs personality on and off and depriving other PCs of being a part of your PCs story, only when it suits them. You dont selectively turn off your Xbox/Playstation when the game's protagonist comes across a fight they might not win. You keep going, and if you lose, you retry and revamp. Why not here? Kratos is Kratos, no matter how many times he falls to the first wave of enemies. You feel just that much more badass when you finally beat the bastards and move on to the big boss at the end.

3. Buckle Up/Enjoy the Ride/Make the Ride

Have fun. That's why we play this decade-old game, right? Because we find playing make-believe with little digital representations of figures we have in our head fun. Put those figures in other peoples heads, now. Make me believe your guy is as badass/wise/cruel/holy/evil/good/exotic/plain as you think he is in your head. No more and no less than that. That means going out and doing things IC for no other reason than its what you think your PC would do. Act first, then react. Strive to make other PCs react to yours, not just make yours react to the setting, other PCs, or DM plots. It is the difference between your middle-school prom where everyone is hanging against the wall, waiting for someone to get out there and make a fool of themselves, versus a moshpit at a SoAD concert where you jump into someone with the hope theyll jump back at you that much harder. Be a character. Be someone worth remembering. Kick some ass, whatever youre RP style is, in such a way that win, lose, or draw, every party walks away thinking damn, that was a cool story.

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Given the dizzying complexities of the Cordor-Tarkuul-Kohlingen triangle, all the factions and towns affiliated with them, intersecting those divisions and/or just pushing their own agenda, I don't see how anyone could complain about lack of opportunities for evil, or any other alignment that wants to start meaningful conflict. Every time I learn more and dig deeper into the mess, I'm genuinely surprised by the twists and details I come across. If you choose to do something entirely apart from these huge stories that intertwine with eachother, that's your call - but there are plenty of opportunities laid out for you already, and ignoring them is your loss.

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This is so incredibly important! DI nailed it.

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Just lurking about!

What? ..I never saw those on the battlefield destroying -anything-, -ever-... last time I saw decked out NPC's they were destroying the banite temple in a Black Carvan'd fashion.
Not that that's too terrible banites shouldn't be hiding in little holes in the ground anyway!



Yep that exists, I've written 1,000+ word essays on the nature of conflict and its role in games/movies/theater/ect. However the L v C doesn't seem as much of a fan favorite until you start throwing out the spectrum of alignment and just go with 'imperfect characters' where no one really knows who's the good or bad guy. When that happens, it's quite fun.

Still that's not a reason to play half a game imo. G v E is still an epic. How ever there's not much room for politics when one side totally dominates the other into dust, why negotiate when you can just rofl-stomp? (happy to report...there's efforts, in da works, I reveal nothings)

My favored enviro is a mix of the two, for a goal of interesting conflict everywhere. (yes, paladins too!)

(some are identified as good/evil and some are not, to fit L v C or just flat out mystery.)
--

To the rest of da readers/posters, I am trying new humorous tactics to make points, essays were already written, I'm moving onto to new horizons. A jab here and there, a thought somewhere, and people's irresistible urge to immediately disagree, I shall take full advantage. Heck, I'll even argue for the Knights of curbstomp in a humorous manner.

My next controversial topic involves palemasters/undead having, personal relationships, and the very real pixelated risks of disease toward the perceived very confused (attracted?) individual.


p.s. At present I'm actually playing (mostly) in the role of the L v C spectrum for the time being. Winya's hoppin'! No more elven ghost town, and druids logged on! Yay! (some old players are wandering to the scene, conflict was remade) *remembers the forest-node days*



"If I can insult every group, nobody will feel left out." <-- that's a quote by me by the way, just now when I typed it.




Hunt Fearlessly

Disclaimer:
I declare I have tricked some of you into arguing a point I would have made, had I not been busy humorously declaring the opposite to therefore trick you into making the point I wanted made anyway. Thanks!

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When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.

Let's make it, not over.

You should have joined the Ostland plot when it started! Those Everwatch are nasty and were largely unkillable!

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

So goodly-hoard shouldn't be afraid to lose? *gasp*


..oh no he didn' *paladin-head-bob*


*like button's the previous post*

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When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.

Let's make it, not over.

Haha. Open Evil.




Is this a joke? We're not playing Xbox. We're playing an RPG where if you die, you're not supposed to come back to life so easily; otherwise you'd be immortal..... Oh wait..... That's one of the biggest problems with evil, actually. That attitude right there. As long as dying means absolutely nothing, playing evil is pointless.

Once upon a time, your character thought staying alive was important, then it came to Amia.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Last time I saw them...it -was- the Black Caravan. >.> Destroying the Banite Temple. Hole. In the ground.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

That's why, when push came to shove, I perma'd Dian when her assassination was well RP'd. It didn't do much for me, but I know ot was valuable experience for the evil guys involved

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The "Needs moar death penalty" argument falls short in that it wont create meaningful role play between good/evil or law/chaos, it'll just give people who know how to build the upper hand.

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Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.

Not even going to dignify that with a response.



Takes courage.. I've only done similar once, but good on ya, for not tossing it so lightly. One of the few.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Even still, you don't and you shouldn't stop playing your character accurately to their personality because youre afraid about what happens to them. Consequences are inherent to this particular style of RPG. They are simply one of the rules of this particular game. So no, it is not a joke, if think about it clearly. Im not saying play your character true to themselves because youre immortal, Im saying that you should play true to them because otherwise you are tip-toeing around an innate facet of the game, rather than actually playing it.

And I think you are very, very wrong about evil being pointless without death, and to be frank, I find that repeated dialogue by players plain bullshit. Evil doesn't have revolve around death. Sure, it can be a big part of it, but goddamn, is every Evil player a sociopath? Why is the only type of Evil aspired to on Amia one that goes about judging its potency in body count? Think about this: there are multiple good actions a Good PC can and does partake of on Amia without ever killing a palemaster, bg, or what have you. There are metric fucktons of chaotic things a PC can do that doesnt involve killing a magistrate and having intercourse with his severed head in a playground. Evil isnt and shouldnt be perceived as just being able to kill other PCs and have it “mean” something. I agree that death should mean something, regardless of alignment, when it happens because your PC should be concerned with it, but if we ourselves think our Evil is meaningless without a death tally, then we are being insanely unimaginative, in comparison to what other alignments have shown themselves capable of in plot and story.

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I guess our evil is unimaginative, and non-existent. I wonder when people are going to wake up and ask why they left?

It isn't about death, it's about fear of death. It's about what are you willing to do and not do, because you might not make it back. That's what's completely gone from Amia, and that's why it's pointless to play something that's supposed to instill fear into another. I've tried just about everything -- good luck.

Where creativity and proper use of story mechanics to create fear work for one player, there's 10 who ignore it and play Xbox with you.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I'm sorry, need I direct you to:

-Tarkuul
-Wiltun
-Caraigh
-Osthavn
-Underport

There is a good amount of evil going on on the isle, player and dm-initiated, that doesn't revolve explicitly around PCs doing or not doing things out of fear of death. If your own personal attempts at evil havent panned out the way you'd like, well, there is a common denominator there. Your brand of evil seems to center on people fearing your PC or their actions, which from your experience, doesn't happen,apparently. While I think IC fear is as good a thing as any emotion, if it is not working, then why continue to shove a square peg in a round hole? It seems like any PC given that situation would change their approach. Evil can be feared as much as it is loved and respected, as much as it is abhorred, or alluring or tantalizing or any given number or reactions. If selling one flavor aint working, time to trot out another.

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It's not just about me. It's about having sold every flavor and having them all be square pegs.

I don't need any direction, I've been a part of this server long enough to know that list you just gave me is pointless, seeing as how these types threads (which aren't even started by me) keep repeating the same thing.

1) Tarkuul participates in NPC/secretive evil that makes such an indirect impact on the server that I wouldn't even call it evil. They just exist.
2) Wiltun - Inactive faction it seems? Evil how exactly? What impact has their evil had on the server?
3) Caraigh - Are you referring to the event years ago which ended in the DM's getting lazy and ignoring years of RP?
4) Osthavn - Nothing any PC's have been able to partake in if so; mostly a disconnected island with a strange story that hasn't impacted the rest of the map in any way.
5) Underport - Why did you bother mentioning this ghost-town?

Evil isn't about establishments. It's an idea. That's what's missing. It can't be fulfilled only successfully and only occasionally by NPC's. Evil comes from the players. That's what's missing. Believe it not, not many people want to partake in someone else's play and have their roles with determined outcomes. That's entirely unimaginative and seemingly the majority of what's left of evil has to work with.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

You'd know you were blatantly wrong on every single point if you participated, really.

I have participated. What am I wrong about?

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Okay, you win. Obviously you have done every imaginable IC approach at evil. And certainly Evil doesnt exist, if you yourself don't witness it. Oh, and even if there is evil, it is real evil, since it doesn't affect your PC directly. You know everything there is to know about evil and can speak on its behalf for every PC.

Am I getting the jist of it?

I'm sorry, but that just seems incredibly cynical. Dont get me wrong, Evil on the server is in no more perfect state than any other alignment, but if it so incredibly bad an non-existent, what are some other PCs feeling, enjoying, joining in, and seeking to make better? Hallucinations? Mock-shams of malice? If your view is that in fact there is no evil on Amia, you have a right to that, and I might even see how you gain that perspective if your accounts are true. But gott im himmel, there appears to be at least some people enjoying evil, otherwise no one would bother to discuss ways to make it more enjoyable.

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1) Tarkuul: Currently sitting between Cordor and an Amnish armada
2) Wiltun: Part of said armada
3) Caraigh: Something about a lich-witch-king
4) Osthavn: The armada behind the armada that's behind Tarkuul
5) Underport: Illithids definitely have an agenda right now (no spoilers)


It's entirely disingenuous to say none of these places are playing a role...when the majority are currently in center stage of the main freaking plot arc. It's a good time to be in -any- of those groups.

All of the listed above items relate precisely to NPC's, which was the entire basis of my point. But hey, I guess I just expect something else.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Last time this topic came around people were bitching that DMs don't do enough to support evil. People people will never be satisfied (unless it's torture porn, I guess)

What DI and Ninja said, the feeling I am getting is characters all around the alignment spectrum are busy and the current lines in the sand (water?) arent drawn by alignment but by current interests.

And there are more then one war brewing from current happenings. All in all things feel very alive and good roleplay flourishes.

I really see no reason to say 'evil' is pointless or has no place on the server. And if you think npc's are the driving force behind the conflicts I really do think you have been on another Amia then the one I have been logging into.

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

That goes both ways. Evil people are still people, they're not machines. If evil isn't afraid of the powers of good stomping their arse, if evil isn't afraid of the concequences of their actions, why would anyone be afraid of them? It's a two-way street. Those high-and-mighty evil folk who just spout nonsense and have no fear, because evil, are the main reason why noone fears evil anymore. If evil folk were realistically afraid of death, they wouldn't go around making walking jokes out of themselves half the time. They wouldn't walk around Amia alone or in pairs, looking for someone to bully, because they'd be in risk themselves. They'd hide in a dark hole and get no RP whatsoever outside their own factions.

And let's not forget the greatest kind of evil; complete lack of morals and ethics. You can be evil without actually doing anything evil. Just the fact you have no morals, no ethics, no task is too dirty, cruel or bad to you, makes you evil. Even if you don't go around killing people for fun, murdering children and laughing at grieving widows, doesn't mean you're not evil. If you're okay with doing that, you're evil. Whether you actually do it or not.

Quoting the description of the Assassin class; "Unlike the blackguard, the assassin is not evil due to devotion to an evil power, but rather due to a complete lack of morals or ethics."

I -love- playing that kind of evil. Could be just me and my preference, but that's my favourite kind of evil.

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In-Game: guano

I think evil's doing a fine job currently. There's a ton of activity revolving around certain, more neutral hubs because half of the island expects war to break out at the simple slip of an arrow. Meanwhile, the entire island's under threat from Amn. In fact, my altitis senses have been tingling for about 2 weeks now, in my excitement at viewing everything that's going around on the island.

I think you have points, Needled. But I also think that you pair them beside vast generalizations, that instead of helping your points, defeat them.

On a different note, there's kind of a neat thing I'm seeing going on in Winya, at the moment, that I'm not sure exactly what to make of it. A bunch of elves have begun making alternate characters and leveling them up in their downtimes, because they want their main character's potential death to mean something (Ie: Permadeath). Yet they also don't want to feel a complete loss and have nothing to do when or if it happens. Its like.. a form of altitis that helps main character consequences. For instance-- Yaster, was it easier to let Dian be permakilled, because you had another character you would also happily play? I'm kind of curious how your decision was made-- as it was an admirable one.

Every time the group of players that Di tends to be around hear's an IC or OOC conversation about how death is meaningless, it boosts up their courage to create strict IC consequences for their own character, when his time comes.

I also think that I'd much rather see Active Conflict Factions, rather than Active Evil Factions. Its something I've been experimenting with, lately. With Henry in Cordor, for example, I really wanted to create a sense of conflict that wasn't good vs evil, or even entirely Law vs Chaos. I wanted to create conflict between dogmatically different factions. Conflict that was spurned by differences in beliefs, not a predictable good vs evil. The same thing with Winya, from an OOC standpoint. I think a lot of people here are viewing Winya as a largely evil settlement, and it kind of makes me smile-- Because the Winyans would never believe themselves evil! While their actions might appear evil to others, the actual justifications behind a lot of their actions tend to (in my opinion), be fairly well justified by Elven sentiment, tradition, or even good intent in some cases. There's more than likely evil going on in Winya, but the conflict currently isn't a Good vs Evil one. Its born instead from a difference in traditions and beliefs that couldn't be compromised. Alliances that had to be honored, dogmas that had to be followed. Its made for a juicy and dynamic series of events. I see more and more characters becoming involved every day, and the entire thing was player-driven. In fact, we've largely been having DM anti-support! Which is all IC, and totally understandable. The conflict with Winya and the others was all driven by players, and I think, given its chatter and attention, that folks deserve a bit of a pat on the back (On both sides, o'course).

I'm not asking for much... (certainly not torture porn)

The lust of survival does go both ways... and I'm glad you brought that up.

As far as being the evil that doesn't display evil characteristics? Well, sure, you're evil. But what are you providing for other players? Are you using a DM device to do it?

I'm not sure I've defeated any of my points, I'm just not going to turn this into a circus, Hackums. I do think that having more active conflict factions is what I'm indirectly supporting. Haven't heard about anything of the Winya plot, but I guess if multiple people are enjoying it, then fantastic.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

The fact I had been considering putting her in to inactivity in some way was a factor in her death, however it was a very small one in the situation.

It stems from the players involved, one the puppet and one who was dictating the actions. The initial conflict started weeks ago however I received the "You may be assassinated" warning shortly after, which I agreed to but with most things like that I thought the players would lose interest or simply forget.

When the hit occurred, Dian was put in a critical situation wherein she had a lot of loose ends ICly which I did want to wrap up, however the one who commanded the hit made sure the puppet would do a lot of damage to her body to hopefully ensure she won't be res'd and kill them shortly after.

There were some PnP rolls and a lengthy (3 hours for one scenario is lengthy to me) roleplaying session on disposing her body, which was nearly interrupted by a hunting party but some hilarious bluff checks made putting her body to one side a unique roleplaying experience in itself.

The sad thing is, through all said and done now, I regret her death. It drew me to have to close her storyline abruptly and during the funeral I really wanted to log in, pop out of the grave and spew some real meta-game stuff to make sure she was alive.

But, one main aspect held me back. It'd ruin the roleplay those involve have set up. It'd ruin the development those who were affected by her death have had. And perhaps worst of all, it'd add to the stagnant nature of unkillable PCs. I think what made the funeral unique and even Zel's death, is that the character is gone. The bodies are viewed and it's clearly them, so no staged death stuff there. They're dead, gone. Characters who felt close now have grief as an aspect to drive them forward.

But drawing back on to my original response, yes I did have character I fell back on to. But I believe the same outcome would happen if that was not the case, it felt like it was the right time for the right reasons with a roleplaying-rich post-death.

I'm not saying everyone needs to go kill off their PCs, but I'd like to think there has to be a case made when conflict occurs. If there's a war, people will die, but it becomes stagnant fast when it's the NPC hoard who only fall victim.

And I'd like to finish with:



This, so much. Some of my recent memorable events happening have happened since I returned earlier this year. Why? There's conflict brewing on each section of the island! When I played the island had their "Big bad boss" to kill, such as the Dark Flight and the Hoarde. Now, they are their own enemies. Each settlement has their agenda and by gods have the fights and stand-by-cordor-square conversations lead to some of the most interesting RP I've witnessed since I joined the server ages ago.

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I agree whole-heartedly. Sadly we all know this is not ever going to happen. Nor in around 3 years of playing here do I expect any longer players to take it upon themselves to react even semi appropriately to something that does not have hard mechanical repercussions.



From a multitude of servers who have such, including my home server of Ravenloft, I can say, from experience, how utterly false that statement was. I have never played on another server where PvP was so rampant, yet so meaningless. Fear of death is a major concern of nearly every living creature, and one of the major points behind why people despise evil (the majority of which have no respect for life). Once such is removed, so is one of the biggest bottom lines that creates conflict.

As for the multitude of posts above commenting on the major ongoing plot. As lovely as it is for all involved, it is sad that DM intervention is what it takes to allow people to actually roleplay out a lasting conflict. As well, in my last post I had stated that what is needed is an environment that is NOT utterly DM reliant to actually move forward. I am certain most of the DM team has many other things to do, aside from keeping us entertained. The last I checked Amia was listed as a Roleplay server, but anymore it comes off as either a Social or Story based server.



THAT is the mindset required... Not from just good, not just evil, but everyone. It helps tell a shared narrative, not only for oneself, but for everyone involved.

I play a librarian, and even I can't avoid stumbling face first into evil.

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I am not saying evil does not exist, I am saying it is introverted and largely ineffectual unless backed by a great DM in the sky.

What is your suggested resolution to that problem, kolde?

That's not intended as a goading question, I promise, I'm just curious. Is your answer as simple as "death penalties", or does it go deeper than that?

Death penalties would help, yes, however I am quite aware that will not be implemented here and I will not waste time rambling on about it. All it really would take is people taking the time to step back and not to take things personally on an OOC level. Take a deep breath and realize its not just a single player game, and we should all be working together to tell a narrative. No one person's enjoyment is more important to another, and even if things are not all rainbows and sunshine for your PC, don't discard a good possibility to have your PC be influenced and possibly even corrupted or scared. It all comes down to player maturity and realization. The topic has been brought up more times than I can possibly count, yet nothing has changed yet.

On the note of pvp, it is so common on this server, even moreso than the servers I've played with far more lax rules, that I think the concept of being killed is horribly diluted to the point where no one thinks much of it. It is not a rule I am quoting from Amia's rules but another server I play on here:



I think the adoption of something similar could do wonders, but such should not need be a written rule... It all again leads to player responsibilty, and sometimes allowing someone else to win, and accepting such. I play on RP servers because I want to play in a shared narrative, 95% of my PCs are evil, and I entirely expect to be killed, forever, its evil's nature to be overcome. But it is frustrating if others are not willing to lose and take the same risks.

Just to recap I truly think we are all here to tell an interactive, engaging, story not just for our own enjoyment, but everyones. It should not be DM reliant, DMs I feel should help foster it but not guide every single aspect. Furthermore all stories must eventually come to an end, being unwilling to let one story end for the betterment of others, to me, is shortsighted and selfish.

Thanks for clarifying, kolde. There really is nothing you say that I can disagree with: a lot of things would work out more towards what I want with that approach.

Unfortunately, you are also right that an appeal to the players to amend their attitude has only been marginally successful. I say marginally because I can guarantee you that there does exist a core of players on this server who do view things the same way, and as such they are naturally less inclined to be exposing themselves to danger and therefore you probably encounter them with less frequency. But at the same time, sure, there are players who play woth no fear of death and pretty much ruin evil's experience.

Is there any way you see to frame the argument differently? To incentivize or discourage one kind of approach over another (in which case you threaten to aggravate zounds if they feel their RP style is being persecuted)? Or just any other idea?

Not trying to place it all upon your shoulders, but this is something we have round about on for uears and it always warrants some fishing for ideas from a variety of viewpoints. While also begging parties to remain civil. Pkease.

Yossarin, sadly no.. I'm not real skilled at being convincing, all I could do is put down my thoughts and views as I had and hope other people can step away and see another view point aside from their own. The only way I can see to correct something so ingrained and long standing is to put mechanical means in which to enforce it.

However, while death penalties are out of the question, I would perhaps suggest instead giving incentive to players who allow their character to be defeated. Again I will reference Ravenloft; one of the most renowned (to me) good PCs to ever exist actually died fighting for what he believed in. He stormed the castle, defeated the big bad, but in the end it killed him as well, he did not come back and the player did not fight it because it was such an epic ending. Now I wrote that just to try and prove that being a hero tends to stand out more if the hero gives everything to do what they believe in. Trouncing over baddies en masse does not seem as grand a story as sacrificing everything.

I would encourage everyone to read or watch something with a hint of tragedy behind the ending, and in turn try to justify how it is not more compelling and engaging than watching an army mow through and annihilate another force, only to repeat the process over and over and over, until one side just says "Screw it" and leaves the battlefield.

Much like playing a game of chess, in which as soon a a piece is 'killed' it returns immediately, it grows dull. One cannot ALWAYS win, but victory is only truly appreciated after one knows what loss feels like.

On another aside, perhaps some incentive to close a character could be given, maybe a few DCs, or allowing the next PC made to start at a slightly higher level.. Or hell, I don't know, something... positive reinforcement.

An idea to throw in the mixing pot:

It boils down to a lack of consequence, so when someone says
"Hey, there's banites, let's hunt them down!" ...well, what counters or causes a hesitation to do such?

Like:

"Well if we do that, we might die..." (mechanical pvp consequences)

"Well, if we do that, they might attack and blow up chucks of our bases." (Gold cost, materials, time to rebuild)

"Well, if we do that, everyone might turn against us cause they have connections." (In an more evil-dominated server, they might get hunted for it instead, banites hire assassins ectectect)
also
"Well, if we do that we might be banned from all the major (evil) cities." (also in the evil-dominated system)

So it's about finding different ways to make consequences matter. (and therefore people will actually care based on reasons other than "well other people 'asked' us to try playing this..." I mean great and all, but that will naturally only go so far and work on likely a minority, with this it's also assumed they even read the forums to begin with, let alone the specific post, and even then decide to agree.)

So, brainstorm consequences is my advice.

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When good wins the day, and evil is destroyed, then the movie is over ...and you do something else.

Let's make it, not over.

I have to say that I'm in Hackums boat in not really caring about who is evil or good, but rather the purposes of factions, regardless of alignment. If a faction's purpose is to gain knowledge, then that is what they're going to do. They are not going to start randomly invading cities of Paladins because yolo, are they? If a force of manipulative liars are trying to gain some form of political power, they are not going to make it ridiculously obvious of what their true nature is.

I think the problem is however, there is not a whole lot of variation in many forces, because PvP has been rendered somewhat redundant, so roles of more physically focused characters such as Mercenaries and Bandits can not really be used so well, as there is no reward for defeating players in PvP, and similarly, no penalty for doing the same.

The server that we have now has bred out of a necessity that physical attributes contribute significantly less to the server than mental attributes, so we get a bunch of very similar stylised characters, of course with their own personalisations. People want to make an impact, so they're going to make a character that they both enjoy, and can feel like they're doing something useful on.

And yes, people focus far too much on good and evil. They see a Banite and instantly think that as evil, when non-evil followers of Bane do exist. Characters are not their Gods, and they most definitely do have their own personalities and stories to tell. Sadly, most people do not see that, and just focus on the God and alignment of said God too much.

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Khaldun Menetnashte Khalfani
Victor Wilkinson

^totally not a lie or anything.