Aye, there are plenty of counters to countering.

My new mage character can wear armor, granted that forces me to use still spell but even so my ac is better then most wizards at my level.

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Osmodius Blackstar - Human Necromancer

Tenser's a -joke- spell???

46 AB easily on a -spellsword- capable of casting buffs, mord's, 50% all time conceilment, up to 65AC, WITH an epic summon, removing 5AC from any opponent with bigby's interposing, always hasted....? (and that 46 ab isn't even counting aid, bless and other goodies)

Geesh only pure melee get more AB than that .... Rogue and Monk builds usually have around 42-44 max



Yup! OR just take shield proficiency and use Julas's Shield and get an acceptable 56ish AC as a mage for the investment of ONE extra normal feat.

Enjoy the Fugue the second anyone sees you with a scroll graphic. Because you're dead.

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

I have been told there is a suit of chainmail with zero spell failure but i have no idea where to get it and at lv 5 am probably way too low lv to use it assuming i even had enough coin to buy it at all at this point.

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Osmodius Blackstar - Human Necromancer

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How..what.... are you familiar with things like, I dont know:

Darkness
Inlisibivity
Greater Sanctuary
Bigbys fucking Anything but Forceful
Any decent summon that land a hit on a flatfooted mage
Haste

Hell, unless the person is hasted haste in itself is an instant counter to being Counterspelled. So Im not sure what game youve been playing, or maybe youve been using the wrong scroll, but no, using a scroll as a caster being counterspell is often your better option. I mean... I don't know, if I've misunderstood you, explain, but that doesnt stand on its own without some further explanation.

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When you get to the point where it's about character sheet vs. character sheet and crunching numbers and collecting specific gear items, role play is already out the window.

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Primary character:
Gaelruil Arabitylarzair
Alts:
Left Alt
Right Alt

That can be true with some people paladin, honestly someone can powergame the sheet, but RP the hell out of the character. When playing a character you naturally want the best stuff available for your character, but one key thing to remember is to enjoy the character

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"You are still willing to do these things? After all he is your father."

"And he is your Lord Husband. If there is a difference, please explain it to me...."

I've done all those things. I'll be sure to steer well clear of you since I must be an inferior roleplayer. I'd hate to ruin the experience of my betters.

I can say that for mages that don't wear armor for AC or grab SD to HiPs spam it can be difficult to take on a "well built" tank. I base this off the both of them being completely unbuffed and being well within range of a melee attack. I love wizards and if they get the drop on the fighter with their buffs in place, no contest. Wizards don't have much in the way of defending against physical attacks against a fully geared level 30 fighter, in terms of actually avoiding a physical blow all we got is Improved Invisibility which everyone and their grandma owns 10 wands of the spell. Stoneskin, Greater Stoneskin, and Premonition is a joke, only good if you want to fight monsters. 1 Flawless mythal and you can cut through any of those buffs leaving only the 50% conceal to actually avoid a hit. For those of us that play a mage that has a flat 10 AC that can really be crippling in that situation.

I like how it keeps me on my toes but it still would be nice if wizards/sorcerers had a spell to defend against physical attacks that didn't completely suck balls.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

"I don't like something you said on the forums OOC so I will make an effort to avoid you in game IC" - and they say Amia is cliquey.

It was sarcasm to make a point.

At this point if you're hanging out in Tarkuul and haven't been invited to an event by me I just missed you or it was diplomatic, lol. This clique business is nonsense. Governments form organizations.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Your sarcastic point
^
My head (and possibly others)

So I'll be seeing you in the game?

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Primary character:
Gaelruil Arabitylarzair
Alts:
Left Alt
Right Alt

It sounds like Gael could use some helpful training! I've done a looot of work myself with Counterspelling. I've taken it as a mechanic, and turned it into a a duelist style all of its own. I know how to use its strengths in ways that most don't, and I've also been made well-aware of its weaknesses. And I've practiced, and geared, and worked on my performance in a mage's duel, because the roleplay of my character comes from his excessive pride as a duelist of great skill. He's a fey as well, and their magic is Rply much stronger against those who wield magic in excess.

On Di'rien, I've taught about 3-4 pupils, and they could probably attest to more of what I said that I believably could! But there are /tons/ of counter-techniques to break another's counterspelling, and I don't want to name them here. I'd rather have Di'rien teach in-game! What I've learned to love about magi, is that while their spellbooks can look the same, there are such vast differences from mage to mage in /how/ they use those spellbooks, so that at the end of the day, you have to know your opponent or be incredibly flexible.

I resent the notion that because I created my character powerfully, and have well-practiced his skills in mage's duels, that roleplay is out the window. If anything, its given me more. Rumors spread, and students come-- and my character is a conflict character purposed to be savage and powerful. I've also purposefully created weak builds because the roleplay I was looking for with that character was him being more of a pest than a threat. And let's not forget that it might very well be the character's desire to have numerous powerful artifacts, trinkets, and commanding tons of power at their fingertips.

I agree with the sentiment a powerfull build doesnt mean there is any less or more rp by default.

Its all down to the character and power is all how you percieve it. Frederick the fighter who got his behind kicked by Merlin the mage would percieve Merlin differant then Rudolfo the rogue would who backstabbed Merlin flatfooted.

However, a min-maxed build is differant from a powerbuild. I wouldnt find a character with 8 intelligence who tries to inspire people with his flawless retoric believable myself.
On the other hand an 8 intelligence character who tries to be inspiring with his obviously flawed retoric I would feel quite positively inclined to as player.

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

How would you know what anyone else's intelligence score is?

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Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

He wouldn't. This chap is just giving others the benefit of the doubt that they roleplay their negatives as well as their bonuses.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

I Don't want to board the thread derailment train whose destination is "powerbuilding and how it effects RP"

That is a highly subjective topic and not really relevant to the op.

I will say that I have seen mages with ac of more than 70 who instantly held or paralysed melee opponents so whilst I can't and won't say that if its true for one it must be true for all I will say that there is definitely the potential for any mage to deal with a melee opponent if they use the right spell at the right time.

Of course this is a deliberately vague statement as the conditions for what will be the right spell at the right time will depend on the caster and the target and the overall situation. Obviously a mage caught unprepared is likely to be in a difficult position compared to a fully tilted one, that said if you are a mage and you constantly loose fights to those believed or perceived to be equal or lesser level/power than it seems evident that either they have some form of edge over and above basic mechanics like a DC item/s or that the caster is not making use of his or her own abilities/DC items.

One of my first characters in Amia was a bog standard fighter who performed excellently from level 3 till about level 10ish then I felt the performance declined tremendously compared to my fellow party members who were mostly rogues/mages/clerics and a paladin.

Why was this the case?

Well at the time I didn't really know, I didn't know much about builds or mechanics or how to squeeze the most performance out of a class/build. I know more now than then and I believe the utility of a fighter character early on comes more from the fact that caster classes at this time have few spell slots and few useful spells but once they get into the "teen" levels they likely have started to acquire useful equipment and now have access to a much greater range of spells for buffing and direct action. Its around this time that fighter characters are able to solo lower exp value mobs quite well, with the generous application of potions etc but to deal the more worthwhile mobs a caster and the buffs are if not required at least highly desirable.

I know the op is talking more about the pvp aspects of the game but my point I'm trying to illustrate is that mages are very powerful and capable entities but like anything they have to be used well to achieve the desired result and in pvp that precondition is subject to all manner of variables.

Ultimately one combatant might do very well and still loose because the other combatant did better, personally I am terrible at pvp and despise power builds (you may infer from this as to my opinion on how builds influence rp here and are welcome to do so via pm ).

So I am not likely to become good at pvp because all my toons begin with an RP concept and back story long before any stats are chosen and the progression of that char is organic and dependent on the IC events that influence that char through its life and so I do not have any dragon bastard palemaster earth gensai warmachine chars .

Unfortunately as Amia doesn't really control builds I would call abusive or exploitative mechanically, I have come to the somewhat pessimistic attitude that pvp in amia is often counter productive to rp, of course that's just my generalized view and no doubt there are plenty of anecdotal come backs available from certain kinds of players *coughs* a.k.a. the power builders, as to why for someone else its not the case .

Bottom line is that mages can wtf own melee chars all day long and if in a specific case this doesn't happen there is a human variable at work making it so not a mechanical one.

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Aggie Agetha War Knight (much to the chagrin of certain players and character )

Correct!

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

I know it's late to answer to that, but oh well...
it depends on how good saving rolls a mage has

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Cyn & Velden story ~ life after death
'Now life has killed the dream I dreamed.'

*coughs*

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Look I'm an Actuary, let's just for the sake of time, make the simplifying assumption that I am always right.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Mages always winning is simply not true... my current mage gets his ass kicked routinely by melee characters even when fully buffed. Granted i have not played a mage in a long time so im a bit rusty but still... i win maybe 50% of the time on average though now that im mid lv i have been surviving for longer periods of time.

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Osmodius Blackstar - Human Necromancer

That is because you simply are not good. How was This even an Argument? Experienced wizard vs Melee = Wizard wins.

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NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

Numbers are there, proving wizards > melees. You're just doing the wrong math.

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login:mirvala
Em'rae d'Ussen d'Vhid
No mercy for the kivvil
aka AgentOfLyumis

I remember a PvP battle I had a long time ago- it was my pure monk versus a mage. I ran circles around the mage only to stop to use axiometric strike on him every 6 seconds or so. The big summon couldn't keep up or hit me, and my SR kept the wails from killing me,.....until I rolled a 1.

Mage +1, Monk 0

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And experienced wizard vs experienced melee I'd have to give it to the Melee build most of the time IF that wizard isn't some AC junky in armor or a HiPs spamming SD. Wizards do not have much of a defense against physical attacks, it's really not hard to get a +5 weapon to cut right through premonition or stoneskin. Don't forget the amount of magic items you have at your disposal, you can get gear to raise your saves and invest in spellcraft so you make the save against most spells. You can invest in UMD (which everyone does) and buy Greater Spellbreach scrolls, Greater Spell Mantle scrolls and even have a mage scribe you some Mords scrolls as well as Greater Sanctuary to close the distance. You have freedom, mind immunity, and negative energy protection potions, and let's not forget Heal potions. Melee builds have a LOT going for them, things I feel should be restricted to casters but were no doubt thrown in for balance but in doing so kinda screwed over mages more than was necessary.

A well played wizard can do a lot of damage yes but a well played warrior can do a lot more because of these scrolls and potions at their disposal, it's really not hard to get your saves up which make a lot of spells from wizards useless, wasting rounds while they get beat on with no defense spells to avoid damage except a level 4 spell Improved Invisibility. Unless of course we all resort to the same old trick of spamming Maximized Isaacs and Greater Ruin, even then a Heal potion can make that all a waste. Maxed isaacs spamming is just lame btw, overpowered spells like that should be toned down and give mages without 70 AC a spell that actually protects them.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

Dev crit it before it can cast.

Done.

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Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee
Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother
Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm

Yea dev crit is still a one hitter quitter, blind, silence even and that's AFTER you recover from the KD effect. But that's after the tone down of a automatic death so I'm not touching that one. Arcane Defiance cloth/chain/plate also renders Isaacs spamming completely useless, which I'm not complaining about I hate spamming Isaacs, so lame.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

lol.

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The Grizzly is Back.

Even a pure caster build needs to think about defense and how they would do in PvP (if you care). If you have shitty AC, no good saves except will, then you will get your ass handed to you in PvP in most cases. The only way to play a pure mage that survives in PvP, is to always be fully buffed, and never sleep outside.

Honestly, I would never play a pure mage because they have poor defense. That plus I hate having my summons do all the work in PvM while I'm invisible. No fun in that.

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Wizard/Sorcerer - Hellball + Greater Ruin + Power Word Death + Timestop +whatever else if the first three don't work. (source - I have a level thirty sorcerer and wizard..)

Melee - Devastating Critical + lots of life. (I have a level thirty weaponmaster.)

Mages are played carefully, melee less so. I think it usually depends on the performance of the caster that will determine the outcome.


Can we change the thread to Sorcerer vs Wizard?

The thing about hellball is it has a slow time actually taking effect after you launch it, half the damage is positive and the other is negative, you have more than enough time to drink a bubbly potion and avoid half the damage. You're trick there is a 1 shot and even on my wizard that has less HP then your average warrior was able to survive that very same tactic all because you can drink a heal potion before they can cast since you both get KDed from hellball. Now your two epic feats were rendered useless because of two well timed potions.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

Or slap 'em with a wand of Evard's Black Tentacle if need be.

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>.>

<.<

Dev crit can be halted with a high fortitude save though, honestly. A slightly decent CON, maybe a few class levels in something with a good Fort save, and lots of Fortitude/CON gear, and you're safe. That sounds like a lot for just Dev Crit, but it can be used against other abilities, or even spells, too, so it may be worth it if you hate failing saves.

I digress.

Wizards have no defense against melee; think about it. Everyone has +5 weapons. Any decent melee has blind fight or see invis/ultravision. A lot, not all, but a lot, of meleers have 400+ HP, making quick kills very difficult. Freedom is on all kinds of random or mythal crafted belts, making grease and other similar spells less useful, and if you use them and they ARE useful, you then have only a few more seconds until the melee walks up to you and turns you into paste.

The only reliable methods I can see to stopping a melee, assuming you start a decent distance away from each other with no wards, are:


1. Grease or similar spell, haste, timestop, wards, timestop, wards, grease, GR, IGMS all over the place (and hope he doesn't come over and murderize you)
2. The melee has low will saves, so you use fear or dominate monster or hold monster on him
3. For some un-Godly reason he has bad fortitude... Use Wail of the Banshee. This, in all honesty, almost never happens at epic levels.


The first method I could see working, if it weren't so easy for Meleers to get potions of Heal everywhere. One heal potion, and he can basically negate GR and one IGMS casting. Better have lots more, and some horrid wilting!

The second method might work, but a good melee will have at least a 50% chance of passing an epic necromancer's Fear spell (10+6+4+13=33 will save, 23 will save VS fear is not that hard to get via items or spellcraft or even feats), and hold monster is essentially in the same boat. Dominate monster has a higher DC, so that's a possibility.

The third option is... Well, who doesn't have 35+ Fortitude vs death spells, on an epic melee build? Yeah, that's what I thought.

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Osiris Masud

High armor class and 50% concealment. If it cant hit you it can't wound you and can't dev crit you. I also dont believe every melee'er has all three of his or her saves on 35+.

There is no auto win spell for wizards, no, but if you prepare yourself, evaluate your opponent (Big barbarian needs other spells then sneaky roque type) and set your spells accordingly you should be able to win.

Actually, I think the reverse of what you claim is more true. Melee has no defense against a wizard (monks excluded.)

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

I've played a sorcerer and a wizard who both been able to take on melee in fight. The sorcerer actually accidentally took a fight with a monk, yet still managed to win. With Wizard I've been able to take down War Knights, was a duel but still.. Just right set of spells and you manage.

Casters are not that helpless. Even though I agree it sucks to cast some spells and go bleh.. As the effect has been nerfed so it is less useful than a spell from lower circle.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

Yea great reasoning, so what about those players that play a normal mage? You know the ones that don't wear armor and use a shield? Wizards are normally suppose to be frail, wearing robes and rely 100% on their casting ability to defend and attack.



They don't need to, you can drink Mind Immunity, Freedom of Movement, Negative Energy Protection potions. You seem to be forgetting what potions and scrolls every Melee build would have available to them.





Really? No defense? How about Greater Spell Mantle scrolls? Greater Spell Breach Scrolls? Mords Scrolls? As well as all the potions that offer 100% immunity to any debilitating effects. You couldn't be more wrong.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

I take my previous statement back, i think i got the hang of it now and am now winning 75-90% of the time. Looks like you guys were right.

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Osmodius Blackstar - Human Necromancer

Don't forget restoration potions, if you manage to land Bigby's on them. Also, spell breach scrolls... They shouldn't even be a thing. It's a slap to the face of every wizard, that a fighter with one rogue level can read a piece of paper and render the epic wizard's defenses all useless (rather, at least 4-6, which is -significant-). Between lesser restoration, mind blank, negative energy protection or death ward, and scrolls of Fuck You, melee characters can counter any spell a wizard can reliable use on them, and then dispel the wizard for daring to use magic.

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Osiris Masud

6 SD levels for a Wiz can help avoid death quite often, but for a pure caster, the only benefit is high spell DCs. If you don't think about defense, you will die often in pvp. It's really simple.

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Don't go that route... It's so cheesy

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Amia Minecraft Server Ip: vps1602.directvps.nl
NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
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Silly kids and their thoughtful builds. Bah!

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Even my mages tend to have saves 35+. Wizards moreso than Sorcerers, given that they can use a Resistance or Fort cloak. There are so many ways for a Mage to avoid being caught right next to a melee. That's what makes rogues or monks a little more deadly-- because as a mage, you might not be able to see them, so they are harder to avoid/kite.

But in the same token, there are a lot of trinkets and magic scrolls that a fighter can use very, very effectively. There's things every class can do to kill another member of another class. There are different situations, different gear sets, different techniques, combinations, etc, etc.

every d&d edition is long well known for its disbalance between classes, and this is still incites flamewars. how amusing are whiners.

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Evolution by any means!

Wow, that was almost constructive, Q't'ulu. Almost.



That is the name of the game at this point. As I said back in the thread with clerics forever ago, the slant of the game is that casters are weak without their buffs, but get exponentially better with them. Meleers are usually moderate, but they're consistently moderate, whether theyre walking around or what have you. Tony Stark is only Iron Man when he has time to put on the suit. Thor is always Thor, if that makes sense.

Most of Amias casters are too lazy to put spells on for just walking around. You get the jump on them, pressure the first move IC, and most importantly, make sure that first move takes place from within arms-reach of them, you drastically improve your chances as a meleer.

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d&d after (and before) balance tweaking

Dark Immolation, this is more constructive?

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Evolution by any means!