On the note of PnP spells, many/some DM's will require you to inform them what PnP spells you know/how you knew them and how many you've prepared before hand or be considered that you don't know them. It's a good standard, possibly, to hold too as it can mitigate the ease of which mages can do things with such spells.
_________________ Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.
Wizard epic summons seem to match dedicated meatshields or melee dps'ers which seems wrong considering the former is a summon where as the latter is a player character.
Back to the topic at hand:
I think 'mundane' characters can be given importance in events by putting forth challenges that either require finesse (rogues) , brute strength (carry a boulder - fighter,barbarian) or rather insight that only 'mundane' classes have (lockpicking for rogues , spirits for a barbarian of spiritual inclinations).
Is lore here used for all knowledge checks? as per default description it is simply id'ing magical items not know all things in the universe.
I do not share the impression you need to play a wizard or be a nobody. All you need is to find yourself a niche that makes you a valuable addition to one of the more influential groups. If on top of that you are loyal and dependable, you got great job security.
Shifters have an ability that allows them to practically go anywhere undetected. They are the perfect choice to gather information. While they might not be able to eavesdrop in stealth like Rogues and Shadowdancers, those can be easily spotted. Oh wait, they can?! Just shift into a sneak skin! A shifter can take on the identities of different people and be an intelligence network all alone. They can be the old clerk in the Kohlingen Keep, the trusted midwife at the Salandran Temple, the waitress at the Nomad, and the famous merchant in the Underdark all at once. It is an awesome oppertunity to play a diversity of characters all at once. They are also the best assassins. Oh, and they can be one of the strongest builds for PvP and PvE.
A well played and thought out shifter is worth five silly wizards.
No, Wizards are not hilariously overpowered unless they are let to be. There are limitations that they have. Beyond spells that made some sense given Tuomas' vocation or his focus in the Art, any PnP spells he has gained access to were taught to him. I keep a record of what PnP spells Tuomas has ins his book and when he would have one memorized , I use one of the *Unique Spell* slots for it, or I have a special track I try to notify DMs of when it's relevant.
As long as the knowledge of the specific spell and the proper slot representation are done right, Wizards are not more overpowered , in point of fact they lose versatility by having to prepare in advance.
As is, one of the projects Tuomas Icly committed to he's going to need to find a somewhat esoteric PnP spell I know that is going to have very limited usage at best outside of PnP stuff.
Also, In plots at times I've had to bang my head against spells being rendered utterly useless in spite that it seemed like they should work fine. (Some times that's the result of misunderstanding the effect or not recognizing something correctly until after the fact).
Lastly, outside of DM plots, PnP needs consent from all parties involved.
As for your arguement of shapes: The Shifter class gets some grace in shapes that are uncommon, as I'm to recall but I could be wrong you need to have some knowledge of the form before you try to adopt it yourself in the PnP version (again, this is something I could be wrong on).
For the record, I'm not directing this at anyone in specific, least of all Tuomas. I'm simply saying that wizzies should require some sort of proof that they actually have these spells, beyond just saying they have them, be it true or not. From what I've seen from you specifically, which has all been very positive, you do put in the work and effort, as well as making the sacrifices to warrant having the spells you have. But those who don't work at all for those things are given free reign to use them whenever, simply because there is no requirement placed upon them to do otherwise. I'm not exclusively talking about DM events either, as I know many DMs do check these things.
It seems like a double standard for someone as a wizard to have free access to these spells, when they're already incredibly easy to just google and read up on, as opposed to a shifter that (apparently) has to find the creature they want to copy as well as familiarize themselves with it, and then post a request. You should remember that those limitations you spoke of are generally self-imposed, too.
It is kind of a funny statement, if you knew how many wizards at times felt helpless and had to rely on people who could accomplish the task(s) in ways that required far more versatility than a rote spellcasting with extremely precise parameters will allow.
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
Yossarin wrote:
It is kind of a funny statement, if you knew how many wizards at times felt helpless and had to rely on people who could accomplish the task(s) in ways that required far more versatility than a rote spellcasting with extremely precise parameters will allow.
Oh I can think of at least one or two of these moments in your plot alone, Yossarin.
A well played and thought out shifter is worth five silly wizards.
I suppose, if it wasn't for the fact that my shifter doesn't have 1k faces since I disagree with a certain DM's supposed RP requirements for it. Even so, I've always considered her more of a combat shifter, meaning she generally stays in her true koboldy form unless provoked. Perhaps she just isn't the ideal character for the class, but I like the idea of a tiny fembold turning into a golem and smashing heads <.<
I suppose, if it wasn't for the fact that my shifter doesn't have 1k faces since I disagree with a certain DM's supposed RP requirements for it.
1) One Thousand Faces has absolutely nothing to do with it.
2) So brave.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
A well played and thought out shifter is worth five silly wizards.
I suppose, if it wasn't for the fact that my shifter doesn't have 1k faces since I disagree with a certain DM's supposed RP requirements for it. Even so, I've always considered her more of a combat shifter, meaning she generally stays in her true koboldy form unless provoked. Perhaps she just isn't the ideal character for the class, but I like the idea of a tiny fembold turning into a golem and smashing heads <.<
And if she is and you have fun with it, that is great. But how strong a build is generally does not have a strong impact on if the character is sought out for plots. You can recruit twenty adventurers to act as blunt instrument of destruction with ease. What makes your wizard, shifter, paladin, etc. stand out from the masses? What useful skills does she have to contribute that others do not? What other qualities make her a valuable ally to have?
And if she is and you have fun with it, that is great. But how strong a build is generally does not have a strong impact on if the character is sought out for plots. You can recruit twenty adventurers to act as blunt instrument of destruction with ease. What makes your wizard, shifter, paladin, etc. stand out from the masses? What useful skills does she have to contribute that others do not? What other qualities make her a valuable ally to have?
Ah, that wasn't really the issue. I was the only shifter present most of the time, that is to say my character was quite involved involved in the plot. It's not that I want to be involved in tons of plots, I tend to avoid them, even. But when I and others that I know get involved, there is a sense that the wizards/whatever else are gonna solve all our issues anyway, so why bother. Also, I didn't mean to imply that my character's build is strong or anything like that, I just mean that she views shifting more as a weapon, kinda.
Naivatkal wrote:
1) One Thousand Faces has absolutely nothing to do with it. 2) So brave.
Well, I don't see how a kobbie is going to pose as a midwife, a waitress and an old clerk without it. Might be fun to try, though
I think 'mundane' characters can be given importance in events by putting forth challenges that either require finesse (rogues) , brute strength (carry a boulder - fighter,barbarian) or rather insight that only 'mundane' classes have (lockpicking for rogues , spirits for a barbarian of spiritual inclinations).
Just to needle, all of these can be done by a wizard, his fey familiar and his pet golem.
In a world of Wizards and Mundanes how do you make the Mundanes stand out?...
Who here has ever read 'Ars Magica' ? It's a White Wolf game all about wizards. And their mundane companions. And their servants. I have a copy of it at home and I can grab the suggestions for how to make it interesting for the mundane characters, but I do recall one of them off the top of my head.
'Everyone should have a mage and a companion character + a couple of grogs' - saying that basically you should find reasons for your character to be indisposed, uninterested or simply unwilling to be involved in a plot so that those around you also get their turn to shine.
It admittedly works better in a smaller group but it does speak of things that could potentially be moved towards making things more open and having a variety of players get to be the principal actor on the stage of life as it were:
1) expand and develop the potentials for collegiate wizardry - the mages towers as is are a good example of this but consider some sort of BG II 'Athkatla' regime where unregistered wizards are pestered/bothered/kicked out of town. Have a license or stop yer fingerwiggling. Obviously this one is hard to enforce and is definitely not going to happen without a plotline or two to develop it.
2) If you main a wizard, develop a strong (as in interesting, well rounded, fun) alternate character who is a mundane. Flavour irregardless it could benefit you and will also give you the insight into when your wizard can step back and let someone else shine and when the job really is for you and you alone. This one is more of an OOC decision, but it could make life more interesting for those who choose to do it.
3) Let's take a real big gulp of the wordbrew and look at the word 'Mundane' - as in pertaining to the everyday nature of the world. This comes back to the point about being disinterested. You're a wizard, stop dabbling in these mundane affairs of petty feudal lords. You have a world to save, a few steadfast hobbits to hire, a ring to destroy... and afterwards when the Island lords have an internal dispute about the boundary of Boatland east, you'll be too busy keeping your finger on the pulse with regards to the thrumming of the baseline of the universe to give a monkeys. Who cares about city politics?
I'm not saying withdraw yourself completely, but consider conducting yourself with more dignity and less obvious interest in the affairs of men and mice whilst you fight the monsters from the demon dimensions. After all you don't think the washer woman worries about Zanshibon's denizens do you?
_________________
Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
Just to needle, all of these can be done by a wizard, his fey familiar and his pet golem.
I could probably make up more eloborate examples where the rogue would survive where as the fey wouldn't (fey has improved evasion and epic dodge?) or where the golem simply couldn't do it on the object that needs to be cleared because he's huge and it may be in fact past a narrow corridor.
Only if the DM allows the wizard to rp having PNP spells and skills outside of their NWN char sheet then do we have a problem.. the PNP arsenal is vastly superior to it's nwn counterpart in every class so giving one class that is unfair.
It teethers on godmoding. For one example if one were to use lore as knowledge (because there are probably a dozen knowledge skills or more if i'm not mistaken) or pretend to have a spell prepared that solves the problem altogether.
Disclaimer: This does not refer to any player or DM on the server in particular but simply my experience in other RP environments.
Saying that wizards are the only people who make contributions to DM events is silly. Gerald contributes plenty. My RP is no less valid because of my class and his accomplishments are rather large.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
*Totally not biased, just because he plays a mostly-wizard*
In all seriousness, wizards are often actually less influential, because people make fun of them whenever they mess up or don't know something, or fail mechanically (like dying in the Abyss), or hell, just in general. People revere wizards less than anyone else because there's this OOC stigma surrounding them that they need to be, and are, the best at everything, and it's leaked ICly a bit I think. Either that, or most people IC simply don't respect wizards.
However, when a wizard does garner respect, he's usually revered quite highly for his expertise. In my opinion, this is exactly how it should be; how much would you value a scientist who didn't actually know what he was talking about? Less than a person who dutifully and successfully performs a menial labor task every day without complaint. How much would you revere someone like Einstein if he walked into your life? A hell of a lot more than either of the other two people I mentioned. A good scientist (re: wizard) is worth his weight in gold, a bad one is a dime a dozen. Menial labor (re: level 3 fighters) are always useful, and Navy SEALs (re: level 30 fighters) are revered for their skills and dedication, even if they're bad SEALs, because they're still amazing compared to everyone else.
TLDR: I don't think wizards are favored much, and as far as IC influence goes, they actually have it harder than some. In events, magic is often involved, meaning -someone- that knows magic must be involved to sort it out, but the mundane characters are often the driving force (armies, organizations, victims, etc.). This is the way it should be. When you have a catastrophe, you usually want an expert or three to help sort it out, in addition to the thousands of other people trying to contain it or deal with it.
It's both, ya'll. Mages get a lot of attention and distinction in plotlines. That much is clear. But isn't the point of playing on this server, in this world in general, to celebrate how cool and awesome MAGIC is? I don't blame the DMs favoring them. In fact, I think it's the opposite. Magic is an essential part of the setting-- and many characters run to mages to explain things. Samantha even used to be one of them. Until they burned her.
This. Lately the impression I'm getting from events is: play a wizard or be a nobody. Imo in terms of RP balance( a term I made up ) wizards are hilariously overpowered, always saving the day and whatnot with some PNP spell that they pull out of thin air. Despite being quite heavily involved in that plotline myself at one point, my character's abilities as a shifter have not once been able to save the day, or even be of use outside of PVE, which is/was extremely demotivating to me and many others. I mean, when the class that is supposedly renowned for it's versatility (shifters) can't even hold a candle to wizards, it sorta bothers me z_z.
As much as I love the wizard players out there, imo you should not have access to PNP spells not already in NWN/amia without requesting it first, just as I have to request any additional shapes that I want.
I will admit we don't have the range of RP options as casters who can use PnP spells to make guardians,alter terrain...tons of stuff to long to list.
But some DMs are kind and give us some leeway as shifters with our powers, Specter form I have been able to pass though walls...ect, Ant 1k face form I crawled under doors and into locks, White wyrmling breath to put out fires, lighting breath to use to lighten up the sky...ect
Lethaux wrote:
I suppose, if it wasn't for the fact that my shifter doesn't have 1k faces since I disagree with a certain DM's supposed RP requirements for it.
I keep hearing stuff about people having a hard time gaining 1k faces.... have the requirements for it changed since I had gotten it years ago, because I did the RP solo without anyone showing me, and people keep informing me they "NEED" a teacher.
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
I suppose, if it wasn't for the fact that my shifter doesn't have 1k faces since I disagree with a certain DM's supposed RP requirements for it.
I keep hearing stuff about people having a hard time gaining 1k faces.... have the requirements for it changed since I had gotten it years ago, because I did the RP solo without anyone showing me, and people keep informing me they "NEED" a teacher.
For my flight widget, at least, the RP was entirely solo. I think it's on a case-by-case basis that teaching is a more guaranteed way of approval than soloing the RP.
Not sure if it applies to 1k faces.
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Estara wrote:
It's both, ya'll. Mages get a lot of attention and distinction in plotlines. That much is clear. But isn't the point of playing on this server, in this world in general, to celebrate how cool and awesome MAGIC is? I don't blame the DMs favoring them. In fact, I think it's the opposite. Magic is an essential part of the setting-- and many characters run to mages to explain things. Samantha even used to be one of them. Until they burned her.
Now she hates all of you.
Sums my thoughts up; It's not necessarily DM's showing favor to them, it's players who want everything explained.
As an an example;
When you create a very simple event, meant to be stand alone, as a new DM you don't expect half the players involved to go running for a mage to explain it to them. It ruins any mysticism you try and inject into the event that you planned, and erodes the potential of the carefully selected and appropriate group of characters to spring it on. And then you try to create things that keeps the effect on the plot those arcanists have, suppressed. And naturally those Arcanists want to overcome the suppression. So you end up devoting more time to the Arcanist, because now you are not only trying to run plot-line for a certain group of characters, you are also running half a dozen subplots with the six Mages that got involved because the solution to your plot was to hard to figure out, even though the simplest solution, stick a sword in it and it dies, would have ended the plot the same day it started.
And that is my only critique of Amia, players, myself and dm's inclusive, is the unerring ability for Amians to take something as simple as; find big bad, stick sword in big bad, big bad dead; into find big bad, try and understand big bad's motivations, use Rogerian therapy on big bad, conclude that big bad is just a misunderstood extension of the realms inability to sublimate absolutism and that we need to find a way to banish big bad out of temporal continuity with the objective being to remove the ideals that big bad propagates from time. WHAT THE FUCK GUYS, JUST STICK A FUCKING SWORD IN HIM AND HE'S FUCKING DEAD.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
And that is my only critique of Amia, players, myself and dm's inclusive, is the unerring ability for Amians to take something as simple as; find big bad, stick sword in big bad, big bad dead; into find big bad, try and understand big bad's motivations, use Rogerian therapy on big bad, conclude that big bad is just a misunderstood extension of the realms inability to sublimate absolutism and that we need to find a way to banish big bad out of temporal continuity with the objective being to remove the ideals that big bad propagates from time. WHAT THE FUCK GUYS, JUST STICK A FUCKING SWORD IN HIM AND HE'S FUCKING DEAD.
Exactly this. Nine times out of ten, logic will solve a plot much faster and more easily, and the wizards are no more or less capable of displaying that than anyone else. However, as Mosh has so eloquently stated, people flock to the wizards to explain matters rather than attempt to figure it out themselves, even if a wizard might well be the -last- class that would be qualified to offer a solution. This can cause a lot of issues and setbacks in a plot, not to mention forcing us to deal with -constant- divination attempts, handing out slight variations on the same information six or eight times with no real gain for the players or the plot in general.
I figured out something. Regards the whole earlier topic of the all-stars.
Wanna be one?
Easy.
Can't tell you how much I love that comic, and how true it is with life in general.
Self-discipline, determination, and persistence (aka willpower) are - to me - the most valuable assets one can have. And anyone CAN have them - that's the beauty of it.
Heh, event like that just the other day. Tarkuul team was confronted with magic runes of horrible-ness. None of the mages could dispell them, so you get the rogue in the group yelling "JUST SMUDGE THEM FOR FUCKS SAKE" and lo, it worked.
And that is my only critique of Amia, players, myself and dm's inclusive, is the unerring ability for Amians to take something as simple as; find big bad, stick sword in big bad, big bad dead; into find big bad, try and understand big bad's motivations, use Rogerian therapy on big bad, conclude that big bad is just a misunderstood extension of the realms inability to sublimate absolutism and that we need to find a way to banish big bad out of temporal continuity with the objective being to remove the ideals that big bad propagates from time. WHAT THE FUCK GUYS, JUST STICK A FUCKING SWORD IN HIM AND HE'S FUCKING DEAD.
Never have that problem with me.... Skeletor is all about the stabbing them to death.... and then looting the remains and or base *searches for anything of note or value* but sadly its very rare to find anything on the fly, but this one time I found a leg off a wolf I killed in a Yoss plot
_________________ ================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================ Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)
I keep hearing stuff about people having a hard time gaining 1k faces.... have the requirements for it changed since I had gotten it years ago, because I did the RP solo without anyone showing me, and people keep informing me they "NEED" a teacher.
It's pretty unclear. Depends on who you ask, in my experience.
This. Lately the impression I'm getting from events is: play a wizard or be a nobody. Imo in terms of RP balance( a term I made up ) wizards are hilariously overpowered, always saving the day and whatnot with some PNP spell that they pull out of thin air. Despite being quite heavily involved in that plotline myself at one point, my character's abilities as a shifter have not once been able to save the day, or even be of use outside of PVE, which is/was extremely demotivating to me and many others. I mean, when the class that is supposedly renowned for it's versatility (shifters) can't even hold a candle to wizards, it sorta bothers me z_z.
As much as I love the wizard players out there, imo you should not have access to PNP spells not already in NWN/amia without requesting it first, just as I have to request any additional shapes that I want.
You want hilarity? Follow my wizard around. Yeah, int of 40, whatever.
Wis of 10.
Botched Wish spell ahoy!
_________________
Bobo_Underhill wrote:
Ley lines, y'all. Just let me go wrangle up my cowboy boots and lasso us up some magic.
Yee-haw!
Aly'dra Zau'ana: Priestessish Of Eilistraee Danika Nefzen: Druid of the Earthmother Delia Am'Anodel: Paladin of Torm
How much do players appreciate romance in DM Events? And how hard do DMs find it to successfully incorporate that element? Personally, it was always really hard for me, but I managed to make it work in some ways, witnessed by a handful of characters.
And to be clear, I am defining romance as "ardent emotional attachment or involvement between people; love". Technically, a lot of adventure stories classify as romances, anyway, even without the above definition. But I specifically mean romantic in an emotional sense.
Does anyone even really care about that aspect? Does it enchance your experience on Amia? Do other DMs find it as difficult to make it believable as I did?
For Robert the love he holds for Eileen remains a defining characteristic. It was not only the love a knight should hold for the lady he serves, but mixed with romatic desires.
He is beneath her in station and as such not a suitable match, even if he had believed the Duke was dead and she available, which he never did. She is also wed, and given to whom she is married, acting on it would not only be completly unbefitting, but also high treason. So on the surface it always remained the relationship of a favored knight to his beloved liege lady, friendly but appropriately distanced. He hid his feelings as he should, and if she had any of the kind, so did she. With that the DM never needed to engage in any openly romatic roleplay. It was the only way it could exist in the first place.
I believe it changed now to a different form, being less of romantic desire, and more that of what a brother would hold for a sister. It however allowed me to torment my character and test his resolve in regard to the values he places so high and demands of others, which I tend to enjoy.
If it is a natural part of the story, I think it has a place. However, in my opinion, it only works if it never becomes much more or if it quickly ends in disaster.
Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
I admit, Tuomas' lack of romantic inclination does not make him incapable of love. Just.. he loves (or strives to anyway) all sentient beings as family , even those who've strayed from an even remotely goodly path.
That in part comes from his choices as a Wizard of the Virtues, but it also comes from knowing as a Gnome and as a Wizard that he will not be able to reconcile the obsession which sometimes take them for a romantic relationship.
Romance, romance. I have a -hard- time seeing romance working in a DM event. I just can't picture it happening. While in the other hand I do play a lonely bard, a character that behaves strictly as a half-dragon when dealing with others in the amorous topic. It's simply a big part of my character that is rarely seen, as it could be of any character. I could talk about my character for a while, but going directly to the point, I do find RPing a romance something extremely rewarding.
How much do players appreciate romance in DM Events? And how hard do DMs find it to successfully incorporate that element? Personally, it was always really hard for me, but I managed to make it work in some ways, witnessed by a handful of characters.
And to be clear, I am defining romance as "ardent emotional attachment or involvement between people; love". Technically, a lot of adventure stories classify as romances, anyway, even without the above definition. But I specifically mean romantic in an emotional sense.
Does anyone even really care about that aspect? Does it enchance your experience on Amia? Do other DMs find it as difficult to make it believable as I did?
In all honesty, I would love to know DM's would happen to see my chars romantic moments. I know a few that simply have become something to define the character itself. The amount of trust and love, in Kohlingen Siege she had one defining moment I and the other player agreed that it was the greatest RP-event that happened between the two. It simply left me speechless for a moment.
There is as well other player who has created plenty of defining moments, but here I wont go to detail. I know at least one DM who has seen plenty of these romantic events. AND! I don't remember when it was Santa's little Helper created some lovely romantic events. No conflict, no big thing, just.. romance and I enjoyed so much it was so fresh from all of it. Thank you so much for offering such a great opportunity.
Do you mean romance between a PC and an NPC, Yoss? If so, I think I'd be leery of such a thing. Relationships on Amia, in my observation, tend towards the flighty already, just by the transient nature of the player base; players drift away from the server and take their love-interest PCs with them. I like for relationship RP to involve some sort of stability, and long-term investment. Or at least, longer-term than the ephemeral nature of a DM plot would seem to support. I wouldn't want a DM to feel obligated to log in DMside just to play my "significant other" NPC; they have bigger things to do with their time than go on dates with just one out of however many dozen players are logged in at a given moment. I'd personally be way more comfortable with confining romance stories to PCs.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
How much do players appreciate romance in DM Events? And how hard do DMs find it to successfully incorporate that element? Personally, it was always really hard for me, but I managed to make it work in some ways, witnessed by a handful of characters.
And to be clear, I am defining romance as "ardent emotional attachment or involvement between people; love". Technically, a lot of adventure stories classify as romances, anyway, even without the above definition. But I specifically mean romantic in an emotional sense.
Does anyone even really care about that aspect? Does it enchance your experience on Amia? Do other DMs find it as difficult to make it believable as I did?
My answer to that is probably obvious to quite a few people! Though probably replace "DM Events" with "plots" just to broaden it some.
One of the best love stories of Amia was the tale of the fat drunk guardsman Edward 'Piggy' and the prostitute Chastity, who found one another after being shipwrecked on Maztica. It was the alt beginings plot 'New Frontier' done by Silent. Both died in the end. Certainly a memorable plot, character and death scene for me, and the romance certainly contributed to it.
Do you mean romance between a PC and an NPC, Yoss? If so, I think I'd be leery of such a thing. Relationships on Amia, in my observation, tend towards the flighty already, just by the transient nature of the player base; players drift away from the server and take their love-interest PCs with them. I like for relationship RP to involve some sort of stability, and long-term investment. Or at least, longer-term than the ephemeral nature of a DM plot would seem to support. I wouldn't want a DM to feel obligated to log in DMside just to play my "significant other" NPC; they have bigger things to do with their time than go on dates with just one out of however many dozen players are logged in at a given moment. I'd personally be way more comfortable with confining romance stories to PCs.
Joined: 14 Dec 2009 Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
Liz wrote:
Do you mean romance between a PC and an NPC, Yoss? If so, I think I'd be leery of such a thing. Relationships on Amia, in my observation, tend towards the flighty already, just by the transient nature of the player base; players drift away from the server and take their love-interest PCs with them. I like for relationship RP to involve some sort of stability, and long-term investment. Or at least, longer-term than the ephemeral nature of a DM plot would seem to support. I wouldn't want a DM to feel obligated to log in DMside just to play my "significant other" NPC; they have bigger things to do with their time than go on dates with just one out of however many dozen players are logged in at a given moment. I'd personally be way more comfortable with confining romance stories to PCs.
^ This.
But, in addition, I have to say at least one DM *cough*Huggles*cough* has payed attention to romance RP involving my character, and it's always been a treat!
I think it would be interesting to see a DM event revolving around romance/love, as its base, rather than the all-out server battles. Sure, there will be controversy and drama involved, but life is chock full of it, especially in fantasy settings. Relationships are a big part of the novels, they should be 'a part of' a role-play server too.
Heh, event like that just the other day. Tarkuul team was confronted with magic runes of horrible-ness. None of the mages could dispell them, so you get the rogue in the group yelling "JUST SMUDGE THEM FOR FUCKS SAKE" and lo, it worked.
I was there. It was pretty funny.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
The second, I don't think I've really seen much of, though I wouldn't have anything against coming across NPCs motivated by love for each other. I think it's if anything an underused plot device. Maybe just because it seems so cheesy and emo when done badly. (Eileen and Montgomery seem to be doing well, maybe? Though I haven't really been witness to that relationship IC; I've only heard it described.)
The third, I think my characters have a long history of demonstrating my opinion on (Kaithan and Daisy are both in stable long-term relationships, and I think it adds a great dimension to them; Kaithan, specifically, has only ever felt at ease with telling Voronwer absolutely everything she's thinking, and that opportunity to be totally unguarded is good for her). Robin keeps pretty much everybody at a distance, but (and yes, I know exactly how shallow this is going to make me seem) she's been pursued romantically by a handful of characters whose RP I've generally found really engaging, which makes me think that I must be playing her right. On the other hand, though, when I see characters jet through "serious" relationships in droves, I do kind of think less of those characters. I kind of find it hard to put much stock in the opinions of characters who are on their sixth or seventh One True Soul Mate in just the time I've known them. But that's I guess an example of IC actions = IC consequences, so I guess that's a good thing, too.
tl;dr: romance = good.
_________________ Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026 Character Portraits!
I'm pretty pro-romance in the game, though as a part of DM events, only in the scenario that perhaps the event impels one half of a couple to fight for the other as opposed to romantic NPC-PC relationships. Otherwise romance is fine.
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Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
I absolutely love a good romance story. Whether NPCs are involved or not, as long as it's deep and meaningful (maybe even drawn out). Flighty or quick, lusty romances are good, too, but they're pretty common around Amia. I adore a true love story, even those that end in terrible tragedy.
I was very, very fond of the Zelly/Reddok romance. A dwarf and a dragon-elf-freak? How the hell did that happen?! It was amazing how it happened, and it was a story told over almost two RL years. It was (minorly) used in a DM mini-plot and Silent even had NPC dwarves react to it in mixed ways, which made it feel like it had a real impact. Hell yes!
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Login: The Copper Queen Cromlech - The Best Copper This Side of Ruathym Zelly Cys'dina - The Wounded Soul, Also Merchant Aelynthi Nor'alei - The Bubbly Winged Elf
I think if a PC is approaching romance and the DM sees the opportunity to further a plot that way, go for it. Smaller aspects of plots and DMing are what make Amia alive.
_________________ Gerald Edmund Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433
I gotta say, the closest I ever got to a DM romancing me (a NWN2 server in a setting much like Amia) was when a surprise shipment of supplies arrived from the mainlands. Folks lined up on the docks to witness the huhbub. Notice was given my character had a delivery that needed picked up so I proceeded to town from the guildhall and to the docks where half the server was watching and participating in the DM's fun. My delivery was an unknown young son born out of wedlock, hilarity ensued at my expense. I got Jr to teach to swing his axe, the guildhall got a new NPC the DM's would possess and torment us with. Was a great touch.
_________________ fairdady..
Loyal Dwarf of Barak Runedar Sig by Jaydn- Dragon by Jes
I love when romance is a hook. You may have trouble incorporating purposefully, Yossarin, but I've seen you very capably destroy a romance... some of mine included. That said, romance doesn't have to be sexual. I've seen amazingly romantic friendships.
I would love to have some feedback to the following thought...
Amian characters seem to often take on the roles that would tradtionally be filled by NPCs. If you are the Magister of Kohlingen, a Councilor of Barak Runedar or Winya Ravena, the Speaker of the Living City, or even a guardsman of Cordor, you basically are not really an adventurer anymore. Perhaps you once were, but you are no longer. As the Magister of Kohlingen you do not travel the region to find the next great adventure to face. Instead you are responsible in overseeing the arcane affairs of a city, training mages, sending your lackey's to research arcane phenomena of concern, and dealing with every day politics at the Keep. Nor can you be risked to endanger yourself while you got adventurers to do that for you.
So if we allow characters to obtain such positions for them to be Player-NPCs, they should have both the advantages and disadvantages of it. Many of the Allstars have the great benefit of having considerable resources, and being free to partake in every plot personally. Mostly because there is no real danger to it. But they should not be at liberty to just go see to everything themselves. That is the reason why in Pen and Paper adventurers are often approached by such individuals to help conduct an endeavor at their behalf for a reward.
Instead, Amia could cater two both these two paths the players can take, with their advantages and disadvantages. There could be more focus on the classical adventure. For example, regular events run for the adventuring characters by two DMs who focus on it, like DMs do for cities. The Traveller Lodge at the Triumvir would be perfect to be the place hang around in case someone comes in with news. In addition, the Player-NPCs could be encouraged to turn to the adventuring population for solutions, to tie the two together.
If this really would be a good idea, and how it could be implemented, I am uncertain about.
I thought quite a bit about that and eventually concluded trying to enforce anything along those lines would be like herding cats. But in matter of fact, it started to work out that those in such leadership capacities will be called upon to be responsible for the ups and downs of whatever sphere of influence they lead, and if they've spent time out galivanting around they're not going to be as informed, as prepared, or sklled enough to handle the problem. I've rather found it to be an opposite case that those put into this positions complain a little because they feel that is all they are able to focus on (and have to eschew the fun and fancy free days of adventuring).
Quote:
but I've seen you very capably destroy a romance... some of mine included.
I would love to have some feedback to the following thought...
Amian characters seem to often take on the roles that would tradtionally be filled by NPCs. If you are the Magister of Kohlingen, a Councilor of Barak Runedar or Winya Ravena, the Speaker of the Living City, or even a guardsman of Cordor, you basically are not really an adventurer anymore. Perhaps you once were, but you are no longer. As the Magister of Kohlingen you do not travel the region to find the next great adventure to face. Instead you are responsible in overseeing the arcane affairs of a city, training mages, sending your lackey's to research arcane phenomena of concern, and dealing with every day politics at the Keep. Nor can you be risked to endanger yourself while you got adventurers to do that for you.
So if we allow characters to obtain such positions for them to be Player-NPCs, they should have both the advantages and disadvantages of it. Many of the Allstars have the great benefit of having considerable resources, and being free to partake in every plot personally. Mostly because there is no real danger to it. But they should not be at liberty to just go see to everything themselves. That is the reason why in Pen and Paper adventurers are often approached by such individuals to help conduct an endeavor at their behalf for a reward.
Instead, Amia could cater two both these two paths the players can take, with their advantages and disadvantages. There could be more focus on the classical adventure. For example, regular events run for the adventuring characters by two DMs who focus on it, like DMs do for cities. The Traveller Lodge at the Triumvir would be perfect to be the place hang around in case someone comes in with news. In addition, the Player-NPCs could be encouraged to turn to the adventuring population for solutions, to tie the two together.
If this really would be a good idea, and how it could be implemented, I am uncertain about.
I'm all for delegation, and I gave this a bit of thought this morning. The problem I see is one of consequences. If you accept an adventure from any political figure in a classic fantasy campaign, you know there are going to be consequences if you double cross the King, take the MacGuffin for yourself, or even just fail at the quest. There will be repercussions depending on the flavor of the NPC you ticked off. On Amia, this is much harder to replicate, especially since there's no guarantee the adventurer you hired won't simply vanish into the void of player ennui. Most "NPC-PCs" don't actually have all the plot clout of an NPC, or the direct control of the people/NPCs in their spheres of influence to adequate level consequences against a double-crossing adventurer, whereas in a typical tabletop setting, the stereotypical king would have every agent, guard an assassin out tracking down the players. The effort it takes to ensure the adventurer is doing their task adequately often far outweighs the effort of simply doing it yourself, doubly so if you have to go out and personally punish them. Even if you -do- go through all the hoops to lay down some pain on a stupid goon for ballsing something up, you don't really have any tools in your disposal as a player to make it meaningful. Even outright -execution- (which I view as an absolute last resort, despite how trivialized death seems to be) is just a laughable inconvenience. By the time you've engineered an elaborate plot and snaked your way around Amia's rules to actually make an impact on this adventurer, the original task you sent him on isn't even relevant.
The idea I have to solve the issue is a little bit tongue in cheek, but that seems to suit Amia's flavor fine. A -neutral- adventurer's guild with DM oversight that offers to charter or license adventurers so long as they don't have any political affiliations. If an adventurer receives too many complaints from contractors, the Guild can revoke the charter, but have this decision lie soley in the DM's hands so that it remains an objective assessment. Smart PC-NPCs would only hire adventurers that keep their charter, and I think natural selection would serve the system well.
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
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A -neutral- adventurer's guild with DM oversight that offers to charter or license adventurers so long as they don't have any political affiliations.
I wanted to do something similar to this, but break down into the three (or five initially) guild archetypes and it involved both repeatable quests (kill something, rob somewhere, study something, fetch something etc), a one off quest progression path based on character level, an accumulating points system which gave characters increasingly better gear access, and DM oversight into the "Guilds". With that in mind I would have also built into the system Citizen-Guilds.
eg: Luca becomes a citizen of Kohlingen and get's access to Kohlingen's quest progression pathway. As he's not really done anything for Kohlingen he has access to the general merchants but not much else. Over time Luca goes out and kills a whole bunch of Demon-sprites as part of a Kohlingen only quest path, and his Kohlingener access would increase.
The above process would have been expanded, built the core concept around archetypes and then further expansion would have slowly included the various job systems.
The idea never got off the ground because of certain arguments against from other developers, not saying they were wrong or right either but you can't really do anything without full support.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
I am not sure it will work, it complicates things and restricts both players and DM's. People will want cookies and the cake.
I dont think negative enforcement is a good idea (You're a guard in Bendir's Dale so you can't come with us.) and I can also see it being a reason to make an alt.
I am also unsure there are enough DM's for it as there are some settlements/ factions with a 10+ active playerbase that dont have an active faction DM and I personally feel thats a priority over investing in this. Without substantial DM attention I dont see this blooming. Not a point of criticism at all but the DM's being assigned to factions/ settlements also pushes players to join factions/ settlements and working their way up as it's a means to awesome rp.
I wouldnt mind romance in a DM event at all, love is a powerfull emotion and can be the source of brilliant rp (as long as it doesnt turn into repeated dramatics.)
_________________ Characters played:
Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar Elloanore (Travelling bard)
Chris, you just have to look at the whinging about how unfair Forrstakkr is for people wanting to buy something because you have to spend more than 5 minutes looking for the store and it's harder than a persuade check on an old gnome to get them to sell to you to know that it wouldn't fly unless it was implemented very well and the way in which access was gained was signposted flagrantly.
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Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
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