AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

Q't'ulu wrote:

Dark Immolation, this is more constructive?

Not really no, amusing but not constructive. Things can always be balanced out more, just takes time and patience. I doubt this is high on their priority list.

Ðraco wrote:

Hudson wrote:

High armor class and 50% concealment. If it cant hit you it can't wound you and can't dev crit you.

Yea great reasoning, so what about those players that play a normal mage? You know the ones that don't wear armor and use a shield? Wizards are normally suppose to be frail, wearing robes and rely 100% on their casting ability to defend and attack.

Hudson wrote:

I also dont believe every melee'er has all three of his or her saves on 35+.

They don't need to, you can drink Mind Immunity, Freedom of Movement, Negative Energy Protection potions. You seem to be forgetting what potions and scrolls every Melee build would have available to them.

Hudson wrote:

Actually, I think the reverse of what you claim is more true. Melee has no defense against a wizard (monks excluded.)

Really? No defense? How about Greater Spell Mantle scrolls? Greater Spell Breach Scrolls? Mords Scrolls? As well as all the potions that offer 100% immunity to any debilitating effects. You couldn't be more wrong.

I'd appreciate it if you kept comments like 'yea great reasoning' out when discussing something Draco, it really doesnt add anything worthwhile to a discussion imho. While I can see some of your points, especially for low epic pure casters I still dont agree with you.

Pure mages are weaker then dual classed mages inherently I think, its no differant with rogues and warriors. If you dont want to take one level of rogue or bard thats quite awesomely consistantyou do miss out on three plus armor class as a consequence. (My wizard is single class too but I avoid pvp, in pvm he hides behind team mates and summons.) The same goes for wearing armor; you make a choice and you have to live with the consequences I fear.

As for your other points, your single mords kills off all of his effects. A fighter thats guzzling potions and reading scrolls after a dispell isnt attacking you and while he guzzles and reads franticly you can attack or flee if you're not prepared.

I think a level 30 pure wizards spells wouldnt be dispelled much by a fighter's lv 17 mord's scroll but I could be wrong there as I never tested it. I can imagine it would ruin a level 20 ish caster when he gets hit by a mord or two though.

Hackums makes a very good point as well, its all situational and nothing is more situational then a wizards memorised spells.

Hudson wrote:

I'd appreciate it if you kept comments like 'yea great reasoning' out when discussing something Draco, it really doesnt add anything worthwhile to a discussion imho.

You're right, I'm sorry

Hudson wrote:

Pure mages are weaker then dual classed mages inherently I think, its no differant with rogues and warriors. If you dont want to take one level of rogue or bard thats quite awesomely consistant you do miss out on three plus armor class as a consequence.

I don't even mean pure caster really, you can be 27 Wizard 1 Ranger 2 Rogue and still have no AC which makes you very squishy with no defensive spells to fall back on. Even though it is technically the better option.

Hudson wrote:

The same goes for wearing armor; you make a choice and you have to live with the consequences I fear.

Armored mages don't get a lot of penalties, Draco used to wear armor and he still had high DC spells, his DC hasn't gone up or down since dropping armor, he just has some extra feats for epic spells or what have you.

Hudson wrote:

As for your other points, your single mords kills off all of his effects. A fighter thats guzzling potions and reading scrolls after a dispell isnt attacking you and while he guzzles and reads franticly you can attack or flee if you're not prepared.

The same works vice versa, a single Mords would reset any "prepared" mage back to zero. Either way any melee wouldn't have to guzzle a bunch of potions to take on a wizard, only one after they Mord each other. Mind Blank potion, if the wizard Gsancs that's what reality potions are for too. So even running away from battle can prove difficult. There is a lot of back and forth between a well prepared fighter and equally prepared mage but if both characters know what they are doing I would still have to give it to the fighter because they have access to the same scrolls a as mage. They can even get powerful summons like the wizard thanks to Greater Planar Binding scrolls. The mage only has a better chance of escaping to live another day, but then again fighters can use Gsanc scrolls too but we're not talking so much about escaping a situation as the PVP itself.

Hudson wrote:

I think a level 30 pure wizards spells wouldnt be dispelled much by a fighter's lv 17 mord's scroll but I could be wrong there as I never tested it. I can imagine it would ruin a level 20 ish caster when he gets hit by a mord or two though.

There you would be wrong, Mords isn't just your run of the mill dispell. It's a mixture of both Greater Spellbreach and Greater Dispell, no matter what it will strip the majority of buffs from a caster.

Ðraco wrote:

Q't'ulu wrote:

Dark Immolation, this is more constructive?

Not really no, amusing but not constructive. Things can always be balanced out more, just takes time and patience. I doubt this is high on their priority list.

IMO, "balancing" d&d is use of duct tape on crufted together kludges. d&d system is inherently flawed beyond all hopes to repair. And in particular, skill point hoarding (ave, munchkins!). (and many useless spells in never-to-be-cast list)

We can always cap the ECL at 10. That'll fix 90% of the balance issues, then create 90% more problems!

Ðraco wrote:

[

Hudson wrote:

I think a level 30 pure wizards spells wouldnt be dispelled much by a fighter's lv 17 mord's scroll but I could be wrong there as I never tested it. I can imagine it would ruin a level 20 ish caster when he gets hit by a mord or two though.

There you would be wrong, Mords isn't just your run of the mill dispell. It's a mixture of both Greater Spellbreach and Greater Dispell, no matter what it will strip the majority of buffs from a caster.

Thats bad then. A warrior with a scroll shouldnt be able to do dispell a mage's spells. Not sure how that can be helped though.

Galenson wrote:

We can always cap the ECL at 10. That'll fix 90% of the balance issues, then create 90% more problems!

+100500! Moreover, ecl cap at 1 should fix rest 9.(9)% issues.

Am I the only one that thinks it should be the other way around, that wizards are a tad overpowered when we limited magical items?

Spell casters are OP, regardless of items. Items just begin to bridge the gap. Skillful playing closes the gap. Any class can be amazing if it is built, geared, and played right. These sort of discussions end up going back and forth based on preference. It's almost impossible to compare a melee class with a caster class. Different roles and purposes.

Gobbledygook wrote:

Spell casters are OP, regardless of items. Items just begin to bridge the gap. Skillful playing closes the gap. Any class can be amazing if it is built, geared, and played right. These sort of discussions end up going back and forth based on preference. It's almost impossible to compare a melee class with a caster class. Different roles and purposes.

+1

We can go on, it's like comparing best animal - dog or cat.

Too easy to say why what beats what. A pair of good players "caster vs melee" will always be back and fourth who wins. There's WAY too much variation to say "caster or melee". Example, which melee style? And if we're not talking pure builds, then that renders this pointless.
Spellblades count as casters and melee so...

Laiquendi Ohtar wrote:

Gobbledygook wrote:

Spell casters are OP, regardless of items. Items just begin to bridge the gap. Skillful playing closes the gap. Any class can be amazing if it is built, geared, and played right. These sort of discussions end up going back and forth based on preference. It's almost impossible to compare a melee class with a caster class. Different roles and purposes.

+1

We can go on, it's like comparing best animal - dog or cat.

Dog.

Pony wrote:

Laiquendi Ohtar wrote:

Gobbledygook wrote:

Spell casters are OP, regardless of items. Items just begin to bridge the gap. Skillful playing closes the gap. Any class can be amazing if it is built, geared, and played right. These sort of discussions end up going back and forth based on preference. It's almost impossible to compare a melee class with a caster class. Different roles and purposes.

+1

We can go on, it's like comparing best animal - dog or cat.

Dog.

Clearly.

Naivatkal wrote:

Pony wrote:

Laiquendi Ohtar wrote:

Dog.

Clearly.

canine all the way!

The 'Arfs' have it. Motion carried. Meeting adjourned.

Did we get to the conclusion that spellbreach and spellmantle scrolls beat all casters yet? No? Here you go:

Wizard > Melee
Wizard < Melee + UMD

We can all agree that the Commoner and Noble classes are the most OP.

Strawberry Stallion wrote:

We can all agree that the Commoner and Noble classes are the most OP.

Merchant > Noble = Commoner.

Anyway, Terra sums it up, but overall it's really down to tactics as to what happens. One wrong spell cast from the mage or one wrong prediction from the meleer and it instantly turns the tables.

Laiquendi Ohtar wrote:

We can go on, it's like comparing best animal - dog or cat.

CAT!

Kraniumbrud wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Pony wrote:

Dog.

Clearly.

canine all the way!

Sure. Chinese and Korean prefer dogs over cats. More meat per raising cost. And dogs are fast breeders. And tasty -- mutton is pale shadow of right cooked dog's meat. But still, dragon tiger phoenix dish (龙虎凤) is tempting...

Would prefer it if we didn't discuss eating my pet Poodle on my thread, thanks...

There are essentially 8 9 spells that makes you win everything. Hence why sorcere is the king of the game.

Flame arrow (To penetrate Spell mantles)
Shadow shield (Neg burst , horrid and Death magic immune)
Haste (Says itself)
Mestils (Melee cant/wont touch you)
IGMS (Works vs everything)
Timestop (...)
Mindblank (Makes you immune to every damned mind, stun, confusion etc effect)
Epic mage armour (You dont need to stack Armor in your gear and thus have LOTS OF SPACE LEFT FOR SAVES AND MAXING OUT EVERYTHING ELSE)
Lesser spel mantle or spell mantle. (Either works because they are both kickass Empowered)

There. The above is why sorcerers always will win - Because they can ALWAYS maximize an IGMS storm and **** you over. And ALWAYS timestop.
Even if you take him unbuffed and undefended, he WILL Timestop, buff like a whore and KILL you.

Can this thread be over now?

Very_Svensk wrote:

There are essentially 8 9 spells that makes you win everything. Hence why sorcere is the king of the game.

Flame arrow (To penetrate Spell mantles)
Shadow shield (Neg burst , horrid and Death magic immune)
Haste (Says itself)
Mestils (Melee cant/wont touch you)
IGMS (Works vs everything)
Timestop (...)
Mindblank (Makes you immune to every damned mind, stun, confusion etc effect)
Epic mage armour (You dont need to stack Armor in your gear and thus have LOTS OF SPACE LEFT FOR SAVES AND MAXING OUT EVERYTHING ELSE)
Lesser spel mantle or spell mantle. (Either works because they are both kickass Empowered)

There. The above is why sorcerers always will win - Because they can ALWAYS maximize an IGMS storm and **** you over. And ALWAYS timestop.
Even if you take him unbuffed and undefended, he WILL Timestop, buff like a whore and KILL you.

Can this thread be over now?

It should have been stopped when people started agreeing that this discussion is invalid.
Then you came in with invalid arguments:
Manage to cast timestop 3 meters from barbarian, being unbuffed. I dare you

Five words: Timestop Immunity is mechanically possible.

serbiris wrote:

Five words: Timestop Immunity is mechanically possible.

Explain this please.

Murex wrote:

serbiris wrote:

Five words: Timestop Immunity is mechanically possible.

Explain this please.

It's fairly simple, albeit inefficient, to trick Time Stop, but I doubt DM's want anyone to spread around how to do it; it's kind of mechanical abuse.

Nope. Not an exploit.

Well bear in mind that with some small amount of development time, scroll castings can be made different from their 'live' counterparts. Like for example, sight-only (cast on ground fails).

>_>

I'm pretty sure (like 99.99%) there's no legit way to be immune to Time Stop (barring outside plot stuff or maybe something DC requested, idk). Granted that still means yes it's mechanically possible, but not in the way that just anyone can get Time Stop immunity (and if they can and it's not DM approved it's an exploit).

I wasn't sure if you meant one way or the other serby, so I covered both bases :mrgreen:

It's not an exploit, but I won't say more on the immunities. There may be an exploit, but the one Serb is talking of is not.

Sorcerers won't always win, but a well played one will win most of the time. In the time it takes a melee to use a mores scroll, a Mage gets two free offensive spells. A Hasted Mage can render any scroll useless with a certain, albeit costly, spell. And any scroll you're casting against an unbuffed Mage is a rough compromise for what you could be doing instead.

In the same way that a melee is super dangerous without buffs, a Mage is just so with minimal-to-no buffs. Mages can die to a melee being right next to him when the fight begins-- or he can kite. And if you want to catch him by hasting, he can time stop then haste, or gs, or simply haste and continue kiting. A barbarian gives this some trouble, in that his one-button terrirage not only gives a huge source of contention even for a Mage, but his speed boost makes kiting an impossibility. Monks aren't immediately dangerous enough to bother kiting (when that same good Mage should have 75+ discipline).

Mords scrolls are nice, but rarely enough to stop a steamrolling, well-positioned Mage. Good news is that there are greatly varying skill levels, even among mages. There are really useful scroll techniques for wm's and rogues, with some awesome item combos.

And in knowing these techniques, as a sorcerer player, I am most afraid of a well played melee. More so than sorcerers,though it's maybe because my character spell duels often.

Just spell resist your way out of time stop if you want.

How do you spell resist a spell that is not spell resistible?

By being dead already.

O'Raghailligh wrote:

How do you spell resist a spell that is not spell resistible?

Maybe time should have a SR.

inprison666 wrote:

O'Raghailligh wrote:

How do you spell resist a spell that is not spell resistible?

Maybe time should have a SR.

But it doesn't have an effect on an -opponent-.

Playing a mage would be eaasier if the enemy A.I. did not make it a point to go after spellcasters every single time. I have traveled with several large parties far in the back and yet the enemy hordes always ignore the group and come for me. It does not matter how far back i am or even if they see me, they always find me and they always kill me first no matter what. Even when other melee characters engage them them they still focus on me. Is this a bug pherhaps? It is very annoying...

I assume AI calculates for "squishy" PCs but proximity is also a factor. If you're having a lot of trouble, try bumping your AC and buffing defences to damage. If that's not enough, try keeping invis up and readily renewable (through items, wands, potions etc). Not many enemies can pierce invis.

I shall try such but im not sure it will work. Even when i get lucky and they dont try to bumrush me as soon as i start casting spells they all disengage and come gunning for me. I get off 2 maybe 3 spells before i have 20 enemies around me and even with greater stoneskin i dont last more then a few rounds.

If your wizard is the last to be seen by a spawn, they won't target you until they take damage from you, and even then, they probably won't switch targets. Most wizards just stay invisible- not my style, but that what I see a lot of.

PvE in higher level areas pretty much takes a use of invisibility per spawn, if you're a caster and not a spellsword. Augment your spellbook with stacks of invisibility potions. Pop one before every spawn to allow your tank and familiar to secure the mobs before unloading. If you true-sight up your party, darkness makes a huge difference, as does Interposing Hand on high AB targets (I'm looking at you, Deadeyes). Fortunately that'll be your only real running cost, though I invest in Heal and use kits to further enhance survivability and keep costs low.

I think probably the key to being a mage is not to just throw straight damage out there. If you have status-affecting spells, then right there you are potentially able to put a lot of enemies out of commission so that they won't be able to effectively hurt you the caster.

Um, not sure if I'm remembering right but also, straight damage spells tend to pull you out of invisibility while stuff that messes with enemies but does no damage lets you stay in invis. Don't quote me on that, though.

Selmak wrote:

I think probably the key to being a mage is not to just throw straight damage out there. If you have status-affecting spells, then right there you are potentially able to put a lot of enemies out of commission so that they won't be able to effectively hurt you the caster.

Um, not sure if I'm remembering right but also, straight damage spells tend to pull you out of invisibility while stuff that messes with enemies but does no damage lets you stay in invis. Don't quote me on that, though.

I think you're wrong on that one, anything that affects enemies brings you out of invisibility. I mean, I'm pretty sure if I cast Energy Drain, I would no longer be invisible. But, I don't know 100%, because I never really tested it, I just assumed that anything that affected enemies brought you out.

At any rate, I think I've been noticing, through my adventures as Frugdar, that casters are most valuable not for any damage or killing spells they can throw out there, but for buffs and crowd control. The fear spell is a bit annoying when they run far away, but it does wonders to mitigate damage you take, and buffs can make an un-doable area rather easy. It's interesting playing both sides of the equation.

Now if I only had the interest in playing a cleric.... Maybe next season.

MisterLich wrote:

At any rate, I think I've been noticing, through my adventures as Frugdar, that casters are most valuable not for any damage or killing spells they can throw out there, but for buffs and crowd control.

Yup.

MisterLich wrote:

Now if I only had the interest in playing a cleric.... Maybe next season.

It's a buff fest, using domains for summons combined with santuary or extra spells.

Not also to mention if pure priest divine favour works well as well as other buffs.

Depends on alignment/domains/build but generally a man in the middle my guy is!!

Ya know, by over analysing shit til it is a dried up white crusty pile, you really can take the fun out of it.

I love the fear spell and it serves as one of my few mindf*** abilities. But i was always told that wizards were for throwing damage spells so i played my mage in that fashion. Maybe i should use more mindf******...

Status maging isn't always better, but it's rare that it's not. Maybe one or two areas in the entire time you level up will give better returns on straight boom-spark-freezey over disabling. Bossfights and PvP are another matter.

As a rule Amian mobs have lots of HP and viably low saves, by which I mean that if you are foccused in caster-stat and the relevant school, you can almost guarantee that they'll all fail and then have to bite the status.

I personally dislike Fear because ain't nobody got time fo' that runnin'. I prefer Confusion, Slow, Hammer of the Gods, Sunburst and Earthquake. The last two are also pretty heavy on damage.

Confusion has the drawback whereby 33% of the time, it'll mean the mob attacks you anyway, but it's Enchantment, so if you're making a Dominate specialist, then it'll have a good DC.

Slow sounds unlikely, but it makes kiting a doddle, and your tanks don't hate it when the enemy loses 4AC and one attack per round either.

Lastly, let us not forget, for the Necromancers in the room, that 'dead' is a status too. If you're a Wiz17 or Sorc18 and running with a level 12 or 13, then the first few mobs are pretty much doomed. Wailspam speeds things up.

I found cloud of bewilderment, stinking cloud, and G-thunderclap to be just a delight on my wizard, on the march to epic.

See, Thunderclap is on the same tier as Extended Mass Haste, and that means it never saw the light of day unless there was another mage in-party who could cast them, and that one wasn't Evocative. Stinking Cloud and Cloud of Bewilderment sound tasty until the Forts start rising to stop Wail being completely stupid.

Well the reason the Mob Fort hits that sharp incline in the first place was due to the efficacy of Devastating Critical, but we've changed that now to the point that we can tailor our mobs to be immune to Devastating, without completely fucking Rogues, whilst not making them immune to every single fort spell in a Wizards spell book.

Wizard vs Melee

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