The only really cheese build I know of, is barbarian, bard, palemaster; obviously to get palemaster immunities and UMD/tumble, but regardless, that's the only one I personally know of.

I am wondering however, how does one justify that build without coming off as a total powergamer who doesn't care about role playing the character? I'm not going to build a thing like that, in fact I love interesting class combinations for RP purposes, but the above makes very little sense in RP, given the fact that a palemaster is someone intimate in magic and undeath, and a barbarian is someone who often-times is illiterate, loves battle more than anything, and again, oftentimes loathes magic and/or bookworms. It's like, "Oh, I'm a raging warrior who tears people in half, who happens to love songs and drinking and poems," That's a bit believable, but then he suddenly turns into a half-lich (figuratively speaking).

How does one justify that, and how do people who have to play with the person who has that character not tear their hair out in frustration at such builds? PvP builds are fine as long as they make sense, I am solely talking about builds that defy reasonable logic.

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Osiris Masud

Barbarian/bard is a weird combination in itself, depending on how to you look at it. Barb/bard is a skald, basically, and they can work. Think of them like barbarian cheerleaders... if cheerleaders were big hulking barbarians that were nothing like cheerleaders except they could inspire their horde into further awesomeness.


Or something.


But yeah, Barb/bard/PM makes me want to choke people :>

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

I've seen cheesy Blackguard/PM's be Rply justified through worship to Orcus or Falazure.

As for a Barbarian/PM, I actually worked with a couple others to cook up a really neat character concept. Playing as the Barb/PM, my character was going to be 'Subject 7', one of the many loyal servants to a Brain-in-a-Jar Bottled Companion-- which was the mental remnants removed from an archwizard who failed in his attempts of lichdom, and sought to preserve his mind for as long as he could, even if his body had failed him.

So essentially, it was a barbaric, strong individual who could take the physical punishment of being one of the test subjects (And who could also easily be subjected to tyrannical rule). The attempt at creating a perfect rendition of living/undeath hybrid. I'd even justified it as an Earth Genasi, as an even tougher subject material. We even had fun brainstorming all the different 'Subjects', until it became a really dynamic storyline involving multiple characters, various personalities, numerous goals and ambitions, and my own neat character-- who was just the right amount of human to be something I was proud of.

Basically, there's a way you can justify just about any build. In my own creative process, I actually do this myself. I tend to brainstorm mechanics without any face, theme, or anything at all-- until I become intrigued by something and start to hammer out an idea. A person. Then I start fleshing out the details until I have a rough image in my head of the character. Then I find a portrait on Deviantart that inspires me further, and then I finish with an appearance and a name. Then, of course, much to some of my powerbuilding friends' demise, I then flip back on the original powerbuild and tinker with it to fit this new character design-- often making it weaker in the end.

This was my Barbarian/PM portrait, with the above concept in mind:

There is absolutely nothing that can justify that build. I knew a few players who used to have it. I would simply ignore the fact that they actually exist, both as characters and as players. Everyone should.

Edit: Sorry Hackums, I love you to death and all, but that stuff just doesn't fly with me, and I think that as a DM you should not encourage it.

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Let's make Druid/Palemaster/Wizard then shall we?

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Conversely, I think any character can be cheesy, no matter what his build is. And any powerbuild can be made into something really dynamic, if you're willing to flesh it out. That's why you see some folks get defensive when as powerbuilders they're lumped into a category of a lesser roleplayer. I've seen cases where people made a strictly rp build, but were (in my opinion!) totally crummy Rpers. And I've seen the exact opposite. I'm an absolute powerbuilder myself (One who admittedly makes sacrifices for roleplay, even in the face of mechanical advantage). But I still tend to make pretty potent stuff. My skill in the actual act of playing, mechanically however, stems from a calmer mind during fights, practice, and other things.

You can represent characters with a wide range of abilities, classes, and feats. And there's a difference between some people's interpretations of representation, and others. I think its a neat thing!

I'm definitely not trying to start a big debate between powerbuilders and roleplay quality, though. Just thought I would try to level the playing field as best I could here and now, so that if anyone wanted to continue this discussion, both sides could take a look here and maybe say, "Yeah, okay." And then we all stay on course.

I don't think we should mix lore breaking with cheese, really.

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Haha! Just about any build. A Druid/Palemaster makes me hurt a little bit. Strictly in the sense of RP, a Druid would be fallen in a heartbeat. But that's also not necessarily the end of the character (Certainly not a powerbuild).

This specific build would be something I would cringe if someone were to plan out. But I could also see it happening to a character, instead. Of course, the druid would be fallen. And of course, you weren't really serious with your question. But what's neat about the NWN/D&D world, is that just about anything can happen, as long as it follows a set of loose rules.

Edit: I could easily justify a character with that build with a long story of pain, sorrow, betrayal, and a shifting identity!

Well, I'll say this.

I would strongly recommend you come up with a character concept first, build second.

So if you want a character concept that's a death knight wannabe devoted to Orcus, and bam, come up with Bard/PM/Blackguard, go for it! If you want to be a priest of Tiamat/Bahamut with dragon wings, and become a cleric/bard/RDD with devcrit, go for it!

If you want to come up with a build then justify it via RP, no, bad! No cookie! No DC! *Snarl!*

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I play:

I think, if you look at the words "Druid"/"Palemaster"/"Wizard" each separately, and cringe in absolute pain at the thought of combining the stereotypes of each of those. If someone were to do that, it would be a horrible character. But I don't look at these classes in their combinations as if I was looking at a stereotype. A properly constructed personality, history, story, goals, loves, desires would all make that mess of a build go away.

When I see Barbarian/Bard/PM, I see 1.) A powerbuild, and 2.) an incomplete character concept. One that has the potential to be simply a powerful character that has shallow Rp, and also has the potential to be something really quite cool.
~~~~

The beginning of my own character creation process was stated just to give a little solace to other folks. For me-- and I think for most DM's and players, no one is going to know just how you made that character concept. What path you took, whether or not you used color templates to build a mood, or whether or not you browsed Deviantart for cool looking pictures, and then built a character concept around it. Or even if you found a gimmick in a mechanical build, and thought it'd be really fun to play. So long as the end result is a well-crafted character with in-depth, provocative RP, I could care less how ya get there!

Considering how subject 7's portrait is brimming with curious similarities to the Phantom of the Opera, I think I see that bard dip on the horizon.

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And the forests will echo with laughter

In the concept, I had wanted him to be just.. horribly disfigured. Sewn layers of skin to strengthen his body, malformed facial features from the horrible, disease-ridden practices-- And of course, a very fashionable face mask to conceal it in public. Fun fact, the exact phrase I used in my search to find that picture was the Phantom of the Opera. I knew I wanted a white mask atop a disfigured face, and it was the best resemblance I could find. I was pleased to find such a dark and somewhat monstrous portrayal.

I've said this many times to people. Build around the RP, not RP around the build. We all want to have strong characters mechanically as well have a great RP concept. But if you can't find the happy medium with your class combinations to both be decent mechanically while properly RPing your chosen classes, you should probably go back to the drawing board. IMHO

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

@Mr.Hackmus

Was this concept of yours approved by the DM team? Because it reminds me of a certain child palemaster who used to have pretty much the same concept like yourself, and the DM team ruled that entire character out, saying that the character should not have existed. Basically, it fell into an unapproved special character cathegory. If you did get it approved by the DM team, I'd like to see the link if possible.

I must say that this greatly annoys me for I am doing my best to encourage people to RP their Palemasters properly. I am spending a lot of my own time IG to help them through it, and you are basically, being in a position of a DM, sinking everything I am working for by carelessly encouraging melee palemasters. Or even worse barbarian/palemasters. That build is so wrong that it should not be even mentioned.

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He's talking about something actually feasible. A child PC casting Hellball, Greater Ruin, and Epic Mage Armor is just retarded. Hardly a comparison, apples to oranges.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

If it's any consolation, I feel exactly the same way about people 'dipping' in to Shadowdancing to the extent that it's just used at HiPS and Shadowjump enhancements to sneakers.

Admittedly I haven't read your Palemaster lore thread (the class and lore personally does not attract me) but I shall give it a read so I understand why barb/pm is such a big no no and hopefully not be naive as I am now thinking "Well, I can't see anything bad with that personally".

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I find this a little disheartening. I see retarded builds all the time that have very little RP to them and if there is a backstory, it is unknown. I was recently shut down on idea that was a 'character concept' only. I didn't even have a build in mind at first until I found out 'oh, it's required.' So then I submitted this proposed build. It and the concept were both denied without giving any real reason as to why, other than that the staff thought there was no need for it on the server. Seriously.. with all the other weird fantasy races and classes and what not going on in our little realm.. I would have liked a bit more explanation as to why.

That is as far as I will get into it here because honestly, I've already moved on with the 'character concept' and turned it into something else I could work with. But I still maintain the original concept would have been neat, not only for myself but for others to figure out along the way.

I just find this to be a little skewed at the moment considering my recent adventuring through request land.

MOD

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Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

I'm not sure if you will be able to derive my reasoning from the threads I made. That is something I am working on with players IG. Every character who comes to Lucius and says he/she wants to become a Palemaster, the first question they get is "Why Palemaster? What brought you to this path?". When you RP a class or PrC with commitment (Shadowdancer in your case), you start thinking in the way a Shadowdancer should. You start understanding some metaphysical concepts and ideas behind the class. I am trying to pass that knowledge to the players and characters I am working with IG. That lore thread exists only to point them in my direction, and to save me explaining OOCly things IG.

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Still sounds more like a template than palemaster levels to me. A palemaster has academic interest in what he does, and is very much personally involved in the ethically destitute things that happen to him, rather than being subject to them. You could build some kind of a case about why his "barbarity" interlocks with a knack for advanced arcane studies, but it's far-fetched as hell. Then again, it's far-fetched to have a few hundred level 30 characters on the same island as well.

This always put me off slightly about Amia. I remember first coming on here back in the day, made an evil cleric and reached level 12 or so. Clerics of that level, as you know, pretty much lead armies in p'n'p, but I figured things were a bit different here, and I was just getting to know the place, so I tagged along. Met this vulnerable teenage chick in the woods around... Bendir's, I think. Talked to the player a bit, and cooked up some small storyline where the cleric felt an attraction that unsettled him, so he put his deity first and decided to try to kidnap and sacrifice the chick. That was before I realized she was level 30.

The cheerful, innocent girl playing in the pond near a local halfling village was a level higher than the most powerful lich in Thay.

After that eye-opening experience, I understood things around here are nowhere near p'n'p traditions; still, considering that everybody who is anybody is level 30 here, that always seemed, in some cases, just as cheesy to me as some of the despicable class combinations.

Ah well. I suppose capping at level 10 and granting further levels solely through devoted RP would nuke the folks who are here for the gameplay, PvP and whatnot.

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And the forests will echo with laughter

But we don't know the idea behind the 'child'. Perhaps a soul was trapped in a gem and then a child was killed.... the body was used during a true resurrection to bring the soul forth from the gem. Said soul is that of a palemaster? Child body but all the memories and knowledge of a long lived life. This is just off the top of my head but yes.. very many builds can be justified if we get creative enough. Isn't that part of the whole scheme? I realize there are absolute limitations but .. still I think there should be some leeway considering it is a 'fantasy' world.

MOD

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Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

In complete agreement on that, yes you can make the RP make sense as to why a mage can shadow dance. But don't think you're fooling anyone, we all know what you're doing. Same reason people make melee based Palemasters, it's not RP that led you to that build. Some of them do make sense, I've seen some that went above and beyond to RP out their classes as silly as they seem at first glance to which I say kudos. But on average, it's just the thought of playing a mage that can HiPs out of danger, or a strength based character immune to criticals and bonus AC.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

No

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

if there was a like button it would have a thumbs up here

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Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

Read up on Fistandantilus

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Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

I RP my cheese builds with a side of wine.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

Here is the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dr ... characters

Here is a brief description that is extremely similar to the scenario I just described.. and it's from two renowned authors of nearly all DragonLance novels.. *le gasp* :

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Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

That's something that would have to be DM approved, you can't just play ANYTHING here. I knew the child PC in question very well. It was just a lot of sillyness. For one you can't cast epic spells without knowing level 9 spells. Which for a child to cast level 9 spells is ridiculous in itself. But to not know level 9 spells AND cast 3 epic spells as a child? No amount of arguing will make me agree with you.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

Completely understood that it would have to be DM approved. Also agreed that not just any child is going to know, let alone cast, level 9 spells. Not arguing any of that. My point is that any concept is doable with *input spongebob rainbow* Imagination!

Brainstorm. Think. Plot. Work it out. Ask others. Plot some more. Get in the nooks and crannies. Flesh it out. Write a story! IMAGINE!

MOD

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Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

I'm on the same page as you now, and can see why a Bardbarian Palemaster is a big no no much like I have a small gripe for people who use 6 SD levels. Not that some aren't valid, it's just... as you said, when you delve purely in to a PrC (as far as you are able to ECL in mind) most come with negative effects to your combat vitality. Hell, 10 Rogue/20 SD was a major pain in the ass to finish off and it's only a month ago that I finally hit 30 on Rico and he's been around for 5-7 years.

But all you can do is teach them OOC that PM has a lot of opportunities that don't need to be powerbuilt to be a part of, much as I do IC and OOC explaining that Shadowdancing is much less than HiPSing and a few Shadowjumps a day.

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I'd like to see pure builds get mechanical bonuses. We wouldn't have any threads like this if that were the case. Where you can play a level 30 Fighter and get the bonuses to AC to make up from lack of tumble and things like that. Even when a paladin multiclasses into rogue for tumble and umd I facepalm.

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~Draco Bloodcloak~ In the mind of a tielfing
~Xanhorn Dragonsbane~

Now that is a concept I can get behind. Love pure builds. *nodnod*

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Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

This. To be carved into the very foundations of Amia.

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I think people should just focus on their own roleplay, and stop being so concerned with the roleplay of others.

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The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

If you're going to misquote me, then remove my name from it.

Did... did I do it right?

(just teasing <3)

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

If barb/bard/PM cant be done as a viable concept, was Mary Shelley's Frankenstein just about a doddering scientist with a multiple personality disorder?

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@Thanatopsis#6293

To be fair, other people's RP can very well seep into your own PC and RP. You're the one that has to rationalize with your PC why that Druid/Wizard/PM monstrosity exists and how you would react to it, even if by all rights it shouldn't. So there's an argument to be made for a continual, polite effort to universally improve RP.

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GSID: TheWrathOfInnos
Plays: Ilaria Thilmos - Dirgesinger
I do LPs too!

Not sure I am understanding your reasoning here. Where does the bard come in?

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Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

Frankenstein's Monster (Who I think we're referring to here, not the Dr.) was actually quite eloquent and had poignant emotions and thoughts in the book, and could express them nicely.

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GSID: TheWrathOfInnos
Plays: Ilaria Thilmos - Dirgesinger
I do LPs too!

Dedication deserves a reward.

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Womans in your town

Well, the monster did enjoy Milton.
That makes it a bard about as much as headbanging makes you Zakk Wylde, though.

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And the forests will echo with laughter

i wonder how many people criticizing melee palemasters or 6 level shadowdancers here have characters with 1 level of bard for just the skill dump. I mean, I accept tumble/discipline dumps being pretty much mandatory, but bard isn't something you really dabble in. It's something you are.

My personal view on the melee palemaster is that it's basically the same as dragon disciples. You do some research, then you do some rituals to make yourself more undead. Just like how a dragon disciple does rituals to make themselves more dragony. If a barbarian can be a dragon disciple, then a barbarian can be a palemaster. There's nothing in the rules that says barbarians have to be stupid.

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NWN Login: Havicus

Active Characters:
Souris, Former Bendir Dale Councillor, now alleged assassin and general hobo
Haren Mariq, Witch of the Southwestern Wind, and High Poultrymancer
Elaneth Merwick, Elfling Arcane Archer

I get the faintest impression Dead's favourite class is Palemaster, and has strongly and clearly defined views on what it is. I, on the other hand, have Bard as my favourite class, and by definition have no clearly bounded views of what they are, since they're the ones that can blag, bluff, cajole, fiddle manipulate and lie their way into anything.

For example: Bard30's should get the jumping/flying tool to represent them persuading gravity to just relax a little and cut them some slack. Not actually true, but that might give an idea of the Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object dilemma of a PM fan saying Bards shouldn't be able to UMD their way into some biological DIY.

(On that note, a DM needs to remove that tool from Ruce. No idea if it still works.)

Barbarian Rage: Does it control you, or do you control it? If it's the latter, I can see the argument that it's like the anti-Monk in that it only works if you don't over-analyse the methodology of violence. If it's the former, you can be as organised an diligent as you like the rest of the time, but when the other guy hits you in balls, or you see something that offends your sense of justice, the red mist comes down, and then you fight like a really strong moron.

Unless I'm mistaken, CHA-casting is something that happens to you whether you want it to or not, unlike INT casting which you study hard for. Level 1 casting, that is.

And last but not least, PAM immunities and AC are IC. Obviously awesome in melee and unscrupulous warriors would plainly go to great lengths to get them. Thus, I wrote this four or five years ago:

The Tale of the Bard/RDD/PM:

"Yeah, I started off as a skald, y'know, bit of magic, bit of song, plenty of swordplay, the one day I saw this skinny old geezer in a robe get knifed right in the throat by a bandit that had nipped up behind him. Doddery git that he was, he barely even flinched! I know my around good knifework, believe you me, and that bandit had the blade right into his voicebox, just as slick as you like.

I said to myself "I gotta learn how he did that, that'd be brilliant in a scrap" and after he turned the bandit into a little puddle of burnt grease, I got talking to him and he sent me in the direction of Tarkuul.

So, I spent a fair bit of time in the library and laboratories there, and I gotta tell you, it's a bit grim what you need to do; chopping up dead blokes and grafting chunks onto you. But, there's backstabbers everywhere and bloody great lads with the muscle to shove a sword right through your breastplate and come sticking out the other side, so sod it, I wanted some of that Deathless Mastery, so the Tarkuul books called it, and I'd do whatever it takes to get it.

I didn't really want to rush into it, as you might expect. While I was in among them books I found another little snippet I liked the sound of a bit more. Turns out those big bastards with the scales and wings and such that you see cuddling in the rain in Cordor square got it when their grandpa was buggered by a dragon or somesuch, but the juicy bit is that all of us skalds probably got drop of it somewhere too. So I went back 'ome to see me Nan and asked her about her Nan and it turns out there's an old rumour of a Red what took a fancy to one of us, back in the day.

That was a damn sight more easy to swallow than the malarkey with the dead fellas; all I had to do was get into a dragony frame of mind, say a few prayers, that kind of thing. Soon as you know it, I'm eatin' like a bloody horse, assuming horses have a taste for extra-rare lamb and undercooked chicken. Started biting my tongue all the time, mind. Bit of extra canine going on, which I could without, frankly, but I kick like a mule, so call it a trade.

Had to get all my armour refitted, the amount of beef I'd been putting on. Got hellish funny looks from the blacksmith when he was lookin at my skin up close. Said he could see scales on it, but I just smiled at him and told him not to ask. He shut up right quick after that.

So that was all lovely, and I was a good strong fella in a barney, but that ain't much use when there's a sword stick out your eye socket, so time came as I had to stick my chin out and get tore into the undead stuff.

Then I stepped it up a lot, and I got more and more leathery around the chops, which were already looking a bit girzzly. And then the books said I had to hack my whole bloody arm off. I looked all over the library to see if I could take a finger, or even a leg instead, but it's gotta be the arm, and it's gotta be the whole thing. Horrible, really. I can still feel my old arm itching from time to time, but scratching the new one does bugger all.

Getting all bony and leathery certainly helped in the battle department, but I was getting a little slow on my feet, so I went back to the skalding when I was almost done, to sharpen up my footwork, see?

Anyway, when I was almost all trained, and a couple of days after I'd done some heavy grafting work in the lab, my heart stopped. At first I was thinking, "Bloody hell, I'm only twenty-seven, what's all this?" but when I didn't keel over, I reckoned I must have got that Mastery thing right. Heart started back up again after an hour or so, mind. Still stops by itself every so often, which feels bloody strange but it doesn't slow me down much.

Not been so lucky with the ladies lately, sad to say. I can't say I'm surprised; between the scales on me dry old skin and the big chunks of bone in my gob as much as on my noggin, and that arm that'll kill you if you touch it wrong, I'm not too pretty any more.

And between you and me? It costs me a fortune in aftershave because, frankly, I smell terrible these days. "

I know at least one of them does.

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THREE

Barbarians ussually aren't into something that requires extensive study and arcane lore though and thats exactly what being a palemaster requires. Lorewise RDD and PM's are a world apart where the first needs litttle study and the second a LOT.

Hackums averted that one nicely with being turned in a palemaster by another though but in general I think that's what stops a barbarian from becoming a palemaster. Personally I think if you want to be a barb/PM Hackums way is the way to go but I am not sure if seeing one like that would make me happy. It -is- cheesy imho and creativity can only nufily so much cheese.

Ruce story made me chuckle.

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

I think folks here tend to overblow just how much investment one needs to become a palemaster. If it was such an exclusive class, wouldn't it require more than a mere 3 caster levels of qualify? The way I understand the class the majority of palemasters are self taught anyways.

Bards have also two things going for them that mesh well with Palemastery. They have an intuitive understanding of magic and a knack for lore. Barbarians and Bards also mesh pretty well, as they both, in my mind, revolve around the concept of tapping into an inner strength. I fail to see what makes the two concepts so mutually exclusive.

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Active Characters:
Souris, Former Bendir Dale Councillor, now alleged assassin and general hobo
Haren Mariq, Witch of the Southwestern Wind, and High Poultrymancer
Elaneth Merwick, Elfling Arcane Archer

Why does everyone assume that barbarians are tribesmen, half-orcs or wild elves? I do not get this.. at all. I understand the idea that 'most' barbarians are played that way and have little care for any form of study unless it is some lass' breasts.. but that does not mean all..

What if there was a woman.. that once a month went into this rage and killed anything that looked at her the wrong way? Oh wait... there already are .. but you get my point... the rest of the time she would be fine.. very capable of study of many things. She need not be some trophy for a caveman that bonked her on the head and dragged her home by her hair.

You see my point? This is the imagination I was talking about earlier... people seem to be stuck on what is found in the books. What is expected. I truly just don't get it :/

MOD

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Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand