I never mentioned you, or anyone, specifically - it's multiple people with this build, and I'm simply wondering, how/what is the RP justification? I only figured out you were this build recently, I didn't always know it. I was actually trying not to steer this in anyone's specific direction because I didn't want to cause people grief, just try to "get" what was going on. I *honestly* only learned this build existed on the server at all, within the last week. I'd never even heard of it before then.

And yes, you're great at boss hunting. That's fun; and I think you're pretty cool OOCly. I just don't get your character's build.

_________________
Osiris Masud

Ahhhh you're making it worsssseeeeeee

so meta
wow
such amaze
much sad


Brain derped.

_________________
Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

That's something only a DM should be asking OOC, you should be finding out IC.

I've had some of my PCs hang around people I /know/ they shouldn't like for certain class or even RP reasons, but I don't ask them to tell me OOC so I can then turn around and go: "Hey man, roll your sleeves up for a sec, I want to see your amazing biceps!"

_________________

I tried that one. DMs refused to allow it.

The basic concept is that of the druid who sees death as simply the other side of the cycle of life. The world beyond has its own 'biology', and if one believes in reincarnation (there was even a druid spell of that name in 1st ed!) then death is just the 'winter of the soul'. A desire to learn how the entire cycle works eventually leads to the druid drifting over the dividing line and becoming part dead and part alive. The character would probably have to be NE-aligned to deal with the mechanics of the class restrictions but this would be more how others see him than how he sees himself. If I were playing the character I would try to avoid using summons (on the grounds that no true druid would coerce other living creaturs into fighting for him), but it could be rationalized that summoning undead to fight for him would be no different (perhaps even preferable, if they don't feel pain).

I believe it was rejected on the grounds of 'class incompatibility' - basically a druid would 'fall' if he became a PM. However, the suggestion was made that I could RP the same character concept with a druid/wizard.


Xaviera (Cleric/Bard) also has a few levels of Shadowdancer, which she took to learn how to hide from a certain psychopathic drow who terrorized her for a year or two. She was a purebuild bard at the time, and I worked it into her character concept as using her literal ability to dance to shift herself into the shadowplane in the same way a bard uses cantomancy to effect changes in the world (dance-omancy??).

_________________

~Sharess on AmiaWiki~
Priestess, politician, prostitute
"[They] were moving in on me like Sharessans on a new broad in the bath house" - Tracer Bolt
AmiaWiki mod (mostly inactive)

Blighter. Thank you, come again.

If you know enough about the game system/world lore, you can justify pretty much anything buildwise simply because that's the entire point of 3rd ed. Complaining about a build just makes one look silly and small-minded since I guarantee you that any combination exists in some gamebook somewhere.

Barb/bard/PM is hardly strange. Its idioms don't even clash. Wouldn't even call it a powerbuild myself since nothing about it is terribly exceptional.

People should only be concerned about themselves, because the second they open their mouth about someone else's, they're likely just showing they're ignorance of the system.

This thread serves the community in no manner and should be locked, really.

_________________
Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

Have been determined as unsuitable for the Amia setting given their requirements.

Leave the attitude out.

Blighters are ex-druids, anyway. They specifically lose their druid powers and gain new ones. There are many more sensible options.

Other than that, though, the guys seems pretty much correct and I don't detect much of an attitude.

_________________

@Xaviera
A druid's creed is strongly tied to the natural order, and through this relationship with the world around him, he can tap into the primal powers of nature. The archetypical druidic alignment of True Neutral isn't called that for no reason; the cycles of life (creation) and death (destruction) play an equal part in every druid's mindset, and they are invariably committed to upholding the balance of nature, the only path through which they believe the world can develop and prosper. Shifts in the balance of power happen all the time, but tend to even themselves out after a while. Whether a druid decides to intervene at any point depends on the druid's personal outlook on life. A common character motive is a young, interventionist druid party member that cannot count on his circle aiding him in his quest to vanquish an evil threat because of their ent-like isolationist philosophy - if evil wins, good will win some other day, any intervention requires due and meticulous deliberation etc. This is all AD&D 2nd edition druid handbook stuff.

While most people regard the side of entropy (that is, the destructive one, Malar for instance) as evil, and that of creation (Chauntea) as good, a druid's true enemy is the utterly alien (to our world) force of stagnation. An undead creature is a typical example, as it is static, eternal, untied to the processes of nature. Whether zombies are ethical canon fodder due to not feeling pain is irrelevant to a druid. His purpose is not to minimize pain and suffering, but to maximize evolution, balance and the laws of life and nature that bind us all. He is a divine caster, he channels his magic through his faith and wisdom, tying himself intricately to the natural world. By giving in to using the methods he is essentially opposed to, even if they are sometimes wielded by the druid's deity itself, is to harbor a doubt and internal inconsistency that is ruinous for his connection to nature.

Whether an individual druid leans more toward what is commonly perceived as benevolent or malevolent, depends on his personality, choice of deity, the circle he belongs to and similar. But all druids are, first and foremost, concerned with nature, the harmony with which they draw their power from.

_________________
And the forests will echo with laughter

That's all fairly well known, Baklava, but it isn't categorically true, it is partially outdated, and not all of it adds up. It's not really a subject for this topic, because there's an Amian practice to the contrary, but there are undeniable inconsistencies that you can't just gloss over. The story is not nearly as neat as people (especially druid players) want to make it seem.

The concept of harmony or balance isn't integral to the 3e druid at all, anyway. It's just one aspect. You can go with it or not, your choice. Druids of Malar certainly don't give a shit about harmony or druidic tradition, for example, they kill every other druid they see and probably don't care to tend to anything but the hunt. Malar opposes everything that is druidic, so a "druid" of Malar would do the same. But this is being discussed right now in a Lore forum topic.

_________________

Why can't we all just get along...?

I have a 12 year old son. He gets SO worked up when someone 'gets away with' something that he perceives as 'wrong'. When this happens, I ask him:

'Did that ruin your experience?'

More often than not, his answer is 'No'

'Did his actions negatively impact YOUR day?'

Again, a majority of the time: 'No'

That's when I smile & say 'Then drive the f$ck on, troop'

Every day people justify wading thru blood as a profession, cleaning up shit to pay their bills, & generally rationalize every nasty thing imaginable just to live their lives.

Anyone. Can. Justify. Anything. Period.

This is a game; if a build breaks the rules, the DM's will likely catch it. If you find someone who can't RP for shit & you don't like it, find other players. If you discover their build & it makes your hair hurt, look elsewhere for enjoyment or get past it. If it's not screwing up your day...drive the f$ck on.

Are there any rules specifically about builds?

Off the top of my head:

1: You are not allowed to hide RDDness, you cannot conceal the wings with a cloak. If you take levels you should give some indications that the character is a dragon disciple.

2: Same goes for palemasters. They can hide the bone arm under clothing, but if they have an armor appearance that makes the bone arm look normal and they still use it, it's a rule breach. Palemastery is also quite identifiable even without the bone arm.

3: You can't use builds that clash in alignment requirements (bard/paladin, paladin/blackguard, etc)
Edit to add on this: We have in the past had a few cases where there were certain builds out of alignment, like chaotic monks, but such characters wouldn't be allowed to take bard or barbarian without ditching the monk levels first.

4: As 1 and 2, same goes for subraces. If you pick a subrace, you must stick with the correct skin/hair colors, AKA: Chultans must have dark skin, Drow are not allowed to have sun elf skin and hair colors, and vice versa. Genasi/Tieflings should have planar indications, etc.

Above all, the encompassing rule is: If you pick a class or subrace, you're obligated to RP it. Some classes have stricter requirements than others, fighter and rogue are pretty lax, but RDD or Palemaster come with a lot of strings attached, as do the divine classes, especially blackguards. But if you're mechanically allowed to do it, you may.

_________________
I play:

Does the alignment clashing thing count if you're fallen (and, of course stay fallen) in one of those classes? Fallen paladin turning to Blackguard is very much a thing.

_________________
Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

They'd have to rebuild.

It's one of those quirks with the fallen widget. It falls you for all divine classes, so if unfallen, the person could cast paladin spells, if fallen, none of their BG abilities work, etc...

_________________
I play:

The "Correct skin/hair" thing is of course somewhat open especially in the case of hair with more than a few races being known to dye their hair, but skin colour can also vary, although usually due to things such as mixed blood, but of course classes like RDD or palemaster can cause rather atypical changes to the "normal" race changes.

Also a rather amusingly unfortunate example with the drow and sun elf since drow and sun elves actually share some commonality in hair colours, with drow's ranging from silver, white, grey but also being known for light golden and lightly coppery hair (and of course some rarer but certainly not unheard of colours since drow are one of the races that more commonly breeds with things like demons which can cause oddities).


Edit: On a different note the idea or finding interesting or different ideas for odd class pairing always amused me, I particularity like the idea of a druid/palemaster who basically acted like the druidic equivalent of a baelnorn not necessarily even approving of their own form but seeing it as serving a greater good. In this case putting themselves outside the natural cycle so that they can continue to ensure that all of the natural world is kept in balance.

I did not know that a mix of arcane/divine was allowed. This is wonderful news! No I'm not thinking of some kind of exploitation but I once had a druid that was blind. Traveling alone she found that when singing(Bard), animals seemed to flock to her. She focused a lot on her hearing because of the blindness obviously and as a druid, could communicate with animals. She was kinda a Cinderella toon. idk.. just glad to know that it's not a concrete restriction

MOD

_________________
Isys ~ Daughter of Earth and Life
Ronnie ~ Without darkness, one cannot full appreciate the light
[MIA]Walker ~ Priestess of the Helping Hand

Oh, arcane/divine is a fantastically fun mixture - Vaaros is a cleric/wizard, and he's fun to play as a Mystic Theurge.

_________________
Osiris Masud

Funny thing about MOD's concept: Bards in 1e were actually a weird subclass of druids, or rather required to practice druidism first. Very much an Orpheus-inspired concept, clearly. Fortunately, it was changed in later editions, but a Druid/Bard would be a pretty cool throwback and potentially a very rich concept (even if a steaming pile of turd mechanically).

_________________

Mind posting that someplace more visible? Not that I'm hiding Lucius' grafts, but even I was unaware of this.

_________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ╬ Join the Magisterium Mortis ╬

Yeah, 2e bards were similar, I think, just with a lot of kits for variety.

Anything with 20 bard is yummy though. 25 bard is sexier. 1 Druid gives you AE (+1 companion) and nature sense. So you can just fill in the other levels from there. So.... it would be a neat RP too. Go for it you cheesers.

_________________

The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

The only visual indication is the undead (It does not have to be bare bone) arm graft at level six. You do not lose any charisma, and the "partial mummification" granted at 10th level is obviously an intrinsic operation. It points out to some internal organ replacement with undead counterparts. "Bone skin" is NWN nonsense that does not exist in PnP and as such I will continue to assume that pale master level progression is not visible to naked eye, should one take necessary steps to hide their undead arm. Even a well-fed vampire can appear pretty much impeccably human, and those things are 100% undead. Pale masters are not.

I resent these arbitrary statements that certain prestige classes should not, or could not ever conceal their unusual features. Way to try and limit the scope of roleplay, guys.

_________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

That's a well argued point, but it rests on the assumption that we're playing PnP and not NWN, which is half right in that we're not playing NWN, but half wrong because we're playing Amia. If the DMs say that Bone Skin means there's whacking great chunks of bone grafted pretty much all over the place on the outside of your body and that you look like a corpse, then that's that.

If I had a character that wanted to conceal their minging semi-undeadness, I would contact the DMs and arrange an IC thingmy where my character attempted said feat.

It's out of subject, but since the previous posts all were, I'm just gonna continue and use the ball thrown ^^

1- Can they hide their physical features IF they clearly state what the other people see in emotes to whoever comes close (RP pms or not)? Or, if the bio clearly indicates what the character sees too?

2- Saya has 2 oufits. One for battle, one when in town. The first is a very covering dress that covers her legs. The second is a tight yet still covering onepiece suit she wears underneath the battle dress (when she wears it), which does not cover her legs. Saya has several visible traits that help in identifying she is clearly different (and the second line of her bio helps with knowing exactly what she is). --> Is a character like Saya breaking any rule?

_________________
Account Name: Karnak_71
Character Name: Hanamori Saya
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=68657&p=1134526#p1134526

Re: concealing PM features, here is the four-page clusterfuck the last discussion of that turned into. Further discussion of such would probably most usefully be conducted in that thread.

_________________
Winner of Amia's "Most Ethical Time Traveler" award 2026

Character Portraits!

Liz, don't!

_________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ╬ Join the Magisterium Mortis ╬

Oh my! This can I just opened is full of annelids!

_________________

The Peacock wrote:

[GreatPigeon] is better than me.

If a yuan-ti pureblood can conceal itself in human societies, then a pale master can pull off the same feat for a time. Proper clothing, the right application of cosmetics, wearing wigs... there's multiple ways to do it. The whole point of concealment though is to hide something: once you use your abilities, the ruse is up... and pale masters are one of the few classes who can't help but flaunt themselves: they're undead lovers and proud!

But, just like with RDD, the more levels you have in palemaster the harder it is to conceal yourself until you reach that catalyst point. For RDDs that's when they get their wings at level 9, for pale masters I'd argue is level 10 when they get their immunity feats. People will eventually catch on that your male wizard wears too much cosmetics and that his clothing is too heavy for the season or that he's always wearing gloves even while indoors.


You all make something simple extremely hard. Use common sense.


[edit] I don't look positively on those who don't role play their classes, especially specialist classes such as RDD. If you're in my DM events, remember this.

_________________
Plays:

"I'll think of something once Amia:EE drops."

As a Palemaster, if you're going to try to get past NPC's unnoticed as a Palemaster, you can do so-- you'll just need to get a DM to supervise. Its not so much about limiting the scope of roleplay for others, as much as setting a standard. The standard PM on Amia is one that is fairly obviously a PM. However, with DM assistance, verification, and supervision, you can attempt just about anything. Even if its hiding your PM traits.

Barb/Bard/PM

I would have never thought of it myself but it is perfectly reasonable to see these in combination. Everyone seems to think that barbarians are all the northern sort that is scared of the dark/magic/etc. Barbarians are savages and could be from any culture. You could I think justify this build by being from a tribe of savages not unlike certain voodoo cults who turn folks into zombies. Your tribe happens to worship some dark god of death/undeath and you get the honor of following the path that leads to undeath. Tribes often chant/sing so there ya go bard. Tribes are adept at surviving in wilderness settings thereya go barbarian. Flesh that story out and you have that build and justifiably so. Point is barbarians arent cookie cutter

_________________

Nothin matters berk. Don't you see? Even so a poor sod shoudn't go hungry

Everyone except half the people in this topic saying how reasonable that combination can be.

_________________

yer so smart

_________________

Nothin matters berk. Don't you see? Even so a poor sod shoudn't go hungry

_________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ╬ Join the Magisterium Mortis ╬

Something that has been bugging me for a couple days now... Monk/??/PM? Is that a thing? Order of the Long Death maybe? Someone let me know, I'm sure there's a good reason for it, I just wondered if it was supported out in the nebulous realm of lore/monastic orders.

_________________

Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

Not any order I've read about, but 1) there are dozens if not hundreds of undocumented orders and 2) monks aren't necessarily part of any order. It is a concept that I just thought of and was brainstorming in the build topic yesterday. (Or was it two days ago?) It is one of the only Pale Master concepts I can personally wrap my head around: someone who is so extreme in his asceticism that he begins to mortify his flesh literally through obscure rituals. He cannot seem to shake his habit of masturbation, so he castrates himself. He takes pleasure in the taste of food, so he burns his tongue. But he still gets hungry, so what better way to escape needs of the flesh than to mummify your intestines? His reflection is beautiful to watch in the mirror, so what surer way to end vanity than a rotten skin? Ultimately, his arm is the symbol and the practical extension with which he interacts with this inferior mortal world, so he cuts it off and replaces it with a morbid reminder. None of this reflects some perverse interest in undeath - it is rather a statement of the inferiority of flesh, that the soul does not care what earthly abode it inhabits. There is a paradox here, of course, because the body does seem so central to the monk's struggle with his spiritual life. In his efforts to realize the superiority of spirit over flesh, he can never get over flesh.

_________________

Now that's a cool concept.

_________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ╬ Join the Magisterium Mortis ╬

totally awesome, just give the monk/pm a scimitar and the prophecy is complete.

Edit for added flavour.



< /sarcasm>

_________________

Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

There's sects of Buddhists who used to practice self mummification like that. Yes, Pale Masters were real. In Japan, of course.

_________________
Player of:
Asya Goodmonsdottir - Knight of Lesser Gods.
-Winner of 2014's "Razored Tongue" Award, and Emcee's pick "Authoritarian of the year".
Jannah Vindle - Mistress of Coin.

That is so fucking creepy and so fucking cool at the same time.

_________________

Indeed.

"The Long Death order worships the principle of death without caring much which deity currently owns the portfolio. They are more than willing to share death and its antecedent, pain, with others. Clerics of the previous god of death, Myrkul chose to view them as part of their god's long-range plans. Kelemvor (the current god of the dead) views them as enemies, but is at least pleased they they do not actively promote undeath. Velsharoon (the god of necromancy and undeath) wants to woo them, but has not figured out how. Monks of the Long Death may multiclass freely as fighters, assassins, and blackguards. This order is quite strong in Thay, though not with the sanction or cooperation of the Red Wizards. See also Rand's Travelogues: Monks of the Long Death."

_________________

Life should be prolonged only when it serves the greater cause of the death of the world.

If you've ever played ANY action server, ANY where, ANY time...it's also so fucking overdone.

Not that concept; just that build.

Concept is very cool.

...but I like colby jack, occasionally a sharp cheddar.

Seriously? It's a horrendously bad build with no offensive capabilities whatsoever, so I don't see why anyone would build it for mechanical reasons. Maybe, just maybe, with 40 levels you could go monk 20 and then grab the wizard and 10-16 PM levels (depending on whether you want epic spells; you can't get them on Amia without 20 base Int so it's just theoretical). Could not make it work with 30 levels because you'd have to ruin your BAB. When you do manage to hit the broad side of a barn every now and then, you deal no damage. All it has going for it is defensive capabilities, and even they aren't much better than any other, less ability-starved PM build.

_________________

Will once again toss my two cents in:

From the cheesiest concepts may come the best characters, and from the best concepts may come horribly boring and horribly roleplayed ones. Moreover, the very title of this thread implies that build x is of poor taste and somewhat tacky, and I've seen plenty of confusion between tacky builds, powerbuilds and roleplay builds.

To begin with, I still haven't seen any particularly -strong- combination in the aforementioned "builds", which might as well not be builds at all. Is that combination calibrated so all the feats will squeeze out every possible drop of combat prowess? The same combination can and cannot be a powerbuild, no matter how odd the combination of classes might be.

With this out of the way, and genuinely answering the question: how does one RP a cheese unusual build combination of classes?

Answer: the title is terribly generic. Which combination? You both referred to barbarian, bard, palemaster and generic other combinations, we should examine them all one by one to determine the actual cheesiness and lolpowerbuild degree. The title, in the second case, should be "how do you RP a barbarian/bard/palemaster"? Once again this depends on how elastic you want to be when describing a class. It's clear that in odd multiclass combinations each of the parts will often be roleplayed as less "canonic" than a pure bard, a pure barbarian and a pure palemaster mashed together. As such, a bard/barbarian/palemaster would be a palemaster in a more loosely interpreted way than, say, a wizard/palemaster. As Dead seemed quite interested in the topic, I believe that between, say, the way -Lucius- is roleplayed as a palemaster and the interpretation of a palemaster in the aforementioned build would be such a wide gap they'd have just a few points in common, as evidenced by a clear difference of commitment to the class between one example and another.

In my opinion, odd "builds" (including barbarian/bard/palemaster) can exist, both being a justified powerbuild (Why not? What matters is after all how good the result is, in terms of roleplay) and being the emulation of a pre-existing, complex concept. Again, in my opinion, the more classes are included in a combination, the more commitment to every single class contained in the build diminishes, in favour of the dominant class of the combination, which can sometimes include combinations of two that can be considered roughly as a single one (ex, I see weaponmaster as an expansion of a warrior, while clearly RDD is less of an expansion of a bard or wizard and something rather radically different).

As such... let's examine the barbarian/bard/palemaster, imagining, for fun, possible interpretations:

Dominant bard: A wanderer and legendary collector of stories and reports, a scribe so committed to the pursuit of stories and to pass them to other generations he adventured into the most savage regions of Toril, a hardened ministrel who has listened to the stories of the skalds and the droning of savage drums in the heart of the jungle, whose wanderings brought him not to fear the hardships of the road, nor the bite of the cold wind of the north, nor bandits nor thirsts nor the inclement sun. The character also stared with or developed along the road a desire for his voice to be heard in the centuries to come, to make the memories of others and of distant, long-gone empires and heroes of the past last forever, and decided to prolong his existance by pursuing undeath. Or he might have been chosen -specifically- to do so. He might have promised an old friend his tale would have lived forever, he might be doing so as the rememberer of a fey [have fun inserting here a thousand reasons why someone would desire to live longer, even if as an undead].

Picture a travelling bard or a lost soul, always on the move and focus on the theme of remembering the past and not only prolonging -his- life but on the topic of making others immortal by not allowing their memory to fade. Ampliate during actual roleplay.

Dominant barbarian: A skald, as mentioned before, or a fearsome fighter whose well-known battlesong can inspire courage/paralyze with fear, merging the bardic song/dirge and the aura of fear. A savage (or not) leader capable of guiding a tribe into the frey, powerful and charismatic, and charging the enemies at the sound of his famed battle-horn (or drum, or whatever instrument you think would be manly enough!). He apprehended from the men of his tribe the secret to turn into an un-dying warrior, a fearsome being and a dreaded knight who will strike fear in the heart of men forever.

Picture the savage sort of death knight, blowing his horn while riding into battle, possibly abiding to the rule of cool and doing so while wearing the skulls of his enemies while mounting an undead steed. This can be incredibly cheesy, or pretty damn awesome. Possibly both at once.

Dominant palemaster: A deathless scribe (bard), endlessly studying and collecting knowledge on undeath or the lives of dead men (faithful of Jergal?) who nonetheless didn't want to give up being proficient into the art of melee fighting. Faithful to Death, he actively seeks to reap the lives of others, worshipping death in all its forms. His mere presence is enough to chill the marrow of the bravest of foes (aura of fear), making them flee in terror before the supreme power of death, final repose and inevitable end of all things.

Picture a cold and aloof grim reaper, being both the quiet, scholarly type, spending days and days writing down on the list of a mortuary the names of the deceased... and more often than not, those he reaped himself.

There are more and more combinations of course, these are just possible examples. Would this character be evil or good? What is his background? What the reasons who drive him or her? Etc etc.

Once again, my opinion. Don't punch me

I approve of the above post. I'm of the mind that pretty much any class combination can be properly justified and roleplayed, when given a chance to.

_________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

All I see.

_________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Login: Narkudauman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ╬ Join the Magisterium Mortis ╬

No judging - but the mentioned build smells of cheese so much even French are under the table. Make Pale master immunities for epic palemasters only and I guarantee you there will be no such build. I may be wrong, though, right?

What boggles me is that there are some cases in which DMs said a strict "NO" without any chance of justification / roleplay and which were far, far from cheese and mechanical abuse (neutral assassin), yet here it seems everything's peachy.

_________________
Daegan Van'Straaten - Duty to Helm is above all!

It is a simple policy we've always maintained: we do not arbitrarily judge the validity of builds that work in NWN, but neither do we make arbitrary exceptions to those mechanical parameters. Bard/Paladins, for example, should be possible from an IC perspective but we just don't want to open that can of worms.

You can request an alignment change at level 30, though. Neutral assassin should be no problem by then, because he could have had a change of heart or (arguably, and common sense agrees) was never particularly evil to begin with. We did change a Banite bard to LE to get the proper summons, for example. But that happened only at max level when build restrictions could no longer be bypassed.

You don't have to feel the alignment on your character sheet affects your RP in any way, though. Your character should act in whatever way befits him. If your assassin is good or neutral, two words on the sheet don't really have any impact. Perhaps someone else thinks he's evil despite never doing anything bad, but what's that to you? Alignment-specific abilities are very few and mostly insignificant.

_________________

As great as it sounds, I remember very well the last discussion regarding this was shot down with strict "no" to any alignment change in case of an assassin. Which is why I still remember it.

When I have a bit more time (well... mood) I will dig it up.



Exactly my point. Therefore, however, the dilema - why something that does not matter at all (alignment - since you can play whatever you want anyway, unless you are specifically bound to an oath like paladin or monk) is forbidden, and something which directly affects the gameplay and is literally made just to take an advance of the gaming mechanics is allowed. That I find hard to swallow.

_________________
Daegan Van'Straaten - Duty to Helm is above all!

*shakes fist* I tried to defend you! This is treachery!

To the last helmite: I agree that the more complex a class combination is, the harder it is to pull it off. Nonetheless, what on paper is a cheesy build can be incredibly fun, deep and complex to roleplay. I personally prefer to start from a concept and then emulate it with existing classes than the other way around, but building RP around something clearly focussed on some other aspect of the game or just plain random is a good exercise; for no reason whatsoever should prevent excellent roleplay.

Tl;dr. Cheesy/Unusual builds do not affect the outcome in any other way than making the concept more difficult to handle. Increased difficulty can both lead to unexpectedly entertaining outcomes and to horrible failures. This, of course, doesn't make ordinary combinations any less interesting.

As for the neutral assassin, the problem might indeed be a mechanical one, aka evil alignment being a hardcoded requirement for NWN assassins. It should be noted though that we were talking about odd class pairings, and not alignment/class pairings, which would require a topic of its own. Same for the ancient question "can a powerbuilder be an excellent roleplayer as well?", which may or may not be the subtle question posed by MisterLich, but, unless openly stated otherwise, should be dropped to avoid derailing completely the main... topic... of the topic.

Interesting, that. I'm of two minds, here. On the one hand, yes, epic magic is well beyond the scope of those below a certain age. Certain magic that is still powerful but not so jarring? Sketchier. I'll give an example. [[BIAS NOTE: Feel free to disregard what follows on the basis that I have played this exact character before, and thus I will more often than not lean towards acceptance of its basics as a legitimate possibility.]]

Sorcerers are innately magical beings that, I find, most sources say typically manifest their arcane abilities around puberty, times of great stress, or both. They're much like X-Men in that regard. That being the precept, I see no reason why an individual between the categories of childhood and adulthood could not also have manifested these abilities. And if they happen to be naturally more inclined to use that power, all the better. An early bloomer capable of manifesting a magic missile or two under emotional duress is something I wouldn't find abhorrent.

However. We then have the problem of how your example gained epic magic in the first place. Whether you're 14 or 40, every adventurer who comes to Amia starts their careers having barely come out of cantrips, relatively speaking. They have to earn that power like everyone else; again, regardless of age. It's very unlikely that a child would place themselves in harm's way like that, but if they invest the determination and effort necessary to achieve the power they think they need or want, why should the cosmos treat them any differently from an elderly scholar?



I concur with this largely, though not always, as with most things. That said, I'll take this as an opening to plant the seed of change. Presently, we don't have a particularly diverse set of 'scout' classes that necessarily fulfill all of our mechanical and flavorful needs. That +6 AC bonus is simply a part of competency, more often than not. But why should only three classes have access if it doesn't make sense in certain situations? My specific suggestion is granting Rangers Tumble as a class skill. It isn't as blatant as 'sneak attack' flashing above your head or a single monk level that may as well not be there or unused and worthless bard songs, for example. And Ranger is the closest base class we have, in my opinion, to the thematics of the actual scout class, which does get tumble. An argument could be made that it's more a combination of rogue and ranger in tandem, but that's another conversation entirely.

Frankly, Rangers already have quite a few Amia-specific bonuses that are much appreciated, so it's doubtful they really need the bonus. But I do feel that it would allow for a better mesh of a Tumble class with other combinations that could use it without sacrificing rationality, in most cases (Paladin/Rogue being just one example).



Funny, that, I actually play one of those. He's on hold now, but it's actually not mechanically as bad as you'd think, though I did intentionally build him as a weakling, and the combination makes so much sense, to say nothing of the possibilities therein.




Just as an add-on, I'd like to link to an amusing prestige class that I thought of when Barbarian/Wizards were first brought up.

_________________
Contents subject to change without warning, reason, necessity, or logical imperative.