Listen is garbage in combat due to how the skill works midfight compared to spot. They're still considered invisible to you, so they still get sneak attacks. Listen will help you find them, but it won't do it as good as Spot, and it won't stop the sneak attacks, either.
Expertise is a waste of a feat, drop it.
Knockdown is a waste of a feat WITHOUT IKD, so pick up IKD.
ed: PS don't worry about the 10 dex, just keep some cat's grace potions on you.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Thanks for the feedback. I think a good Paladin should be able to knockdown a dragon, so I think it fits. Since I am new to the server, I thought the safe best for a Paladin God would be: Tyr, Torm, or Ilmater. Would they all match with my build concept here?
All of them work, but if you're down to the tiny details, Tyr's favored weapon is the Longsword, so that fits your weapon selection.
Ed: I downed a lot on Listen before, but don't be too discouraged from taking it. you're still oging to see hiding people, it just doesn't serve the same function that spot does in combat. So don't feel too discouraged from keeping it. Taunt is very good though, and you'll hit quite a bit with it... except the mages whom you might want to do it most to. It'll work against quite a bit else, though.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
I know they will still get some sneak attacks on me with my listen focused build. The thing is, when a rogue starts to HIPS, if I don't know where it is, I can't chase the little guy down either and that is the real problem with fighting them. Without listen, I just have to run around in random circles until I find the rogue (and a good rogue will kick my butt if I do that). However, I have never fought a rogue that had to deal with a cool down timer on their HIPS though, so that would be something new as well.
Taking Champion of Torm would give me access to spot. However, I would lose out on +6 damage and this build needs more damage as I can't always have a divine might up.
I find it odd timing to plant this after a paladin build, but it's revisiting something I wanted to do for a long time while altering a previous build I'd done.
Notes - *Yes, there's an actual roleplay based reason why I'm not taking Epic Fiendish Servant. This is moderately subject to change, and will have plenty of time open for that sort of development.
Going bastard swords instead of long swords at the cost of Great Cleave still feels like the right thing to do, but the epic feat coughed up for a Great Charisma does kind of hurt. I figure the benefits of a decent charisma score balances out against investing fully into strength, but then again that's why I'm asking for opinions.
_________________ Who are you. What are you. Why do you scream at me?
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Why no crippling strike?
edit: and yes I see improved evasion but your playing a Blackguard with a decent number of rogue in pre-epic so your reflex saves should be high enough to just settle for evasion.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Also cleave without great cleave on any character that can get to four APR is a wasted feat. Better of going Reflexes there.
Anyway I've built that build a number of times and have it stream-lined in a note-pad
18 Str -> 26 8 Dex 8 Con 10 Int (every skill you could possibly want is covered by Rogue) 14 Wis 14 Cha
Pre-epic feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Divine Might, Divine Shield, Knockdown, Blindfight, 1 Human Free (I put lightening reflexes here, you would do exotic) Fighter: Weapon Focus, Improved Critical
What you just posted is more in line with what I remember from way back, and it's what I was heavily considering. No Improved Knockdown really bothered me a lot on my last blackguard though, and it always seemed to boil down to whether or not I'm willing to give up bastard swords. I also never really liked the idea of just taking Overwhelming Critical without taking Devastating as well, especially on a character like this that's already fully loaded on 10d6 sneak attack damage (and only a x2 weapon). Might as well go Epic Prowess?
Also CS is nice but I have a hard time weighing that against the dreaded 1 or the chance of running into Mander's evil twin who happens to be a cleric with empowered Earthquakes and a stick-on goatee.
_________________ Who are you. What are you. Why do you scream at me?
What you just posted is more in line with what I remember from way back, and it's what I was heavily considering. No Improved Knockdown really bothered me a lot on my last blackguard though, and it always seemed to boil down to whether or not I'm willing to give up bastard swords. I also never really liked the idea of just taking Overwhelming Critical without taking Devastating as well, especially on a character like this that's already fully loaded on 10d6 sneak attack damage (and only a x2 weapon). Might as well go Epic Prowess?
Also CS is nice but I have a hard time weighing that against the dreaded 1 or the chance of running into Mander's evil twin who happens to be a cleric with empowered Earthquakes and a stick-on goatee.
Right, I get what you mean by a lack of improved Knockdown, but really with a BG needing str/wis/cha how in the hell are you ever planning to squeeze in 4 points for intelligence? You are already at 8 con and you are making an argument for dev crit, yo!
_________________
The Peacock wrote:
[GreatPigeon] is better than me.
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Arcadence wrote:
What you just posted is more in line with what I remember from way back, and it's what I was heavily considering. No Improved Knockdown really bothered me a lot on my last blackguard though, and it always seemed to boil down to whether or not I'm willing to give up bastard swords. I also never really liked the idea of just taking Overwhelming Critical without taking Devastating as well, especially on a character like this that's already fully loaded on 10d6 sneak attack damage (and only a x2 weapon). Might as well go Epic Prowess?
Also CS is nice but I have a hard time weighing that against the dreaded 1 or the chance of running into Mander's evil twin who happens to be a cleric with empowered Earthquakes and a stick-on goatee.
I'm a damage stack-er so you'll have to decide whether or not to take Epic Prowess or drop Armor Skin in favor of Devastating Critical on my variant. I'd always take over, if only for efficiency when you are dropping those tasty 10d6 sneak bombs.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
Ed: I downed a lot on Listen before, but don't be too discouraged from taking it. you're still oging to see hiding people, it just doesn't serve the same function that spot does in combat. So don't feel too discouraged from keeping it.
Listen does have one advantage over Spot: it detect people round corners, over some walls and on the far side of any scenery furniture which blocks Line Of Sight. Unforunately, the only styles that can really take advantage of this are cornersneak and trapnester, which isn't the most helpful advice for a Pally build, Cloakshadow excepted.
In a similar 'WTF?' spirit of my Halfling chair-wielding terror-raging Warsling Sniper, I have another silly concept:
Half-Orc: 20 SD/ 9 Rogue/ 1 Ranger. Strength-based. Dev Crit using throwing axes.
Thoughts?
I theorycrafted a ranged dev critter once. It will work, I suppose. It won't be anything close to as viable as your warslinger, though. The lower AB (3/4 classes plus STR instead of DEX build) will make it pretty difficult to actually land crits.
_________________ Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
All I had to do was read there and say yes to a 20 SD Half-Orc.
But that sounds really interesting, they'd be rather gimmicky but eh, aren't all Builds when you look at them?
In PvE, you'd be doing a lot of Dev-Critting with the hopes your Shade will do a lot of damage from them falling, and you'd have not-so-great BAB but... as a fellow 20 SDer, that's pretty much what you're going to have to deal with sadly!
Quote:
It won't be anything close to as viable as your warslinger, though.
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
Well, it's actually quite nice because of the synergy you get from mixing... half-orc and SD and throwing axes and STR together. Dev crit is nice and is nice with SA because downed enemies are nicer to throw axes at. Some would call it vomit after a hard night of drinking twelve different variations of Cosmo, Sex on the Beach, Long Island Tea, Strawberry Orgasm, and Corkscrew. Then you would take a piss in it and throw it in your friend's face who would follow your phlegmatic morning routine. But to me, that's true love and the very meaning of friendship.
Best Halforc or Orkoid subrace build that will literally leave people dead, passed out or in sheer wonderment at the carnage around them. Bonus points if he's not some mage
_________________
Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?
Right, I get what you mean by a lack of improved Knockdown, but really with a BG needing str/wis/cha how in the hell are you ever planning to squeeze in 4 points for intelligence? You are already at 8 con and you are making an argument for dev crit, yo!
It was more of a "Well, if I'm going to be getting Overwhelming I may as well work for Dev" kind of comment.
Thanks for all the ideas and feedback! I went ahead with my original stats but went full into strength up to 24 and settled on warhammers since they're unloved yet beautiful. That freed up space for IKD and Great Cleave, and now I just really need to decide on whether to take Prowess or Overwhelming (warhammers make a good argument there sadly).
_________________ Who are you. What are you. Why do you scream at me?
settled on warhammers since they're unloved yet beautiful.
Playing a Warhammer user and knowing many others, they may not be longswords but they are still loved.
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
I want to share with you this build as evidence to why i champion the cause of drow's ECL to be reduced to +1. If this build was a surfacer, Say a normal human, Elf or even a dwarf - They could net both Epic Weapon spec. Ki-Critical AND Crippling strike
A drow needs to choose two(2) of the three (3) things.
Crippling strike Epic Weapon Focus KI-Critical.
And we also have -90HP And -1AB And -1Universal save and -1 Epic feat.
At 20 SD, your cooldown is so fast, by the time your daze has worn off, you can cast it again.
I'll give a full response later as I'm on my phone, but th tl;dr is it's good at crowd controlling one monster, which is good for the role SD plays in a group.
_________________
"Operating in the border between light and darkness, shadowdancers are nimble artists of deception. They are mysterious and unknown, never completely trusted but always inducing wonder when met"
I want to share with you this build as evidence to why i champion the cause of drow's ECL to be reduced to +1. If this build was a surfacer, Say a normal human, Elf or even a dwarf - They could net both Epic Weapon spec. Ki-Critical AND Crippling strike
A drow needs to choose two(2) of the three (3) things.
Crippling strike Epic Weapon Focus KI-Critical.
And we also have -90HP And -1AB And -1Universal save and -1 Epic feat.
/End rant
And that is precisely why they are +2 ECL.
_________________ Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
Is a good build centered on using a crossbow doable? I had a character idea (which involves crossbow use) strike me a while back and I wanted to know if it was worth it to invest in crossbow-y feats.
Is a good build centered on using a crossbow doable? I had a character idea (which involves crossbow use) strike me a while back and I wanted to know if it was worth it to invest in crossbow-y feats.
1) Is there a way to mix AA and Assassin feasibly? I'm assuming you'd want something like 6 Bard/9 AA/15 As? Nets +5 arrows for piercing DR shields and extra AB, then also with 16 INT should net a DC of 34 if rocking +12 INT gear/buffs. Or should it go full bore 18 As for Epic Dodge and suffer +3 arrows?
2) Warsling sniper. Can't get it out of my head, Charles! What are they typically in build? Barbarians? Is a barbarian axe-thrower feasible for a PC? I know the NPCs in Brog are fierce, but they don't last forever and there is more than just one of them.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
2) Warsling sniper. Can't get it out of my head, Charles! What are they typically in build? Barbarians? Is a barbarian axe-thrower feasible for a PC? I know the NPCs in Brog are fierce, but they don't last forever and there is more than just one of them.
Some people like the Rogue/Barbarian with Terrifying Rage slinger.
I prefer Rogue 19 / Fighter 6 / MS 5 (17/8/5 works, too), though.
_________________ Remember when I knew a boxer, baby
Oooh those all look nice. I was thinking even the generic 24/4/2 barb build could work, but sneaks would be nice to have as well.
'Nother q: What happens if you have a stack of throwing axes in each hand instead of a shield? Do you need TWF feats?
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Location: Down South and Bent Edge
Mercedes wrote:
DireCorbie wrote:
Is a good build centered on using a crossbow doable? I had a character idea (which involves crossbow use) strike me a while back and I wanted to know if it was worth it to invest in crossbow-y feats.
Sneaker, heavy rogue.
It's okay but you can be more viable with a Cleric/Fighter/Tumble or a Paladin/Fighter/Monk with Zen archery and Divine Might/Shield. The Cleric variant is the best way to be a focused spell caster and do decent amounts of damage because your Strength requirement is a non-issue.
_________________ I play: Gage le Gris Socially and recently politically Inept Knight of Xymor
Assassin AA can work yes but Rogue will always beat it.
Kinda what I figured, but the ranged aspect was nifty.
DerkDerkistan wrote:
Naivatkal wrote:
'Nother q: What happens if you have a stack of throwing axes in each hand instead of a shield? Do you need TWF feats?
You can't use them in both hands.
Oh, I thought the Brog barbs did, my mistake!
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
As a rule of thumb, what are minimum/decent/excellent AB and AC to shoot for? I'm terrible with builds, but with these guides I could avoid a multitude of mistakes. Thanks.
Joined: 21 Jul 2005 Location: Awarded most Confused Git of 2014!
EarthDreamer wrote:
As a rule of thumb, what are minimum/decent/excellent AB and AC to shoot for? I'm terrible with builds, but with these guides I could avoid a multitude of mistakes. Thanks.
Highest AB I know is like 55+ Normal AB is 45-48. Decent AC is 55. To not get hit by players it's 55+20 = 75.
To avoid getting hit by 99% Of the mobs - Get 60AC. Most Mobs have 35-40 AB
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