Just throwing out a thought and frustration of mine (that I know others share).

Maybe I've got a biased viewpoint here from being caught up in so many of the plots, but it feels like there's nothing but grief and bad news from the DM plots sometimes. Yes, we have support from some NPCs, but how often do we get a good news break or a little divine assistance?

Some have felt pushed to the limits, and I know particularly in Kohlingen, we've been so pressed that it's hard to work on our actual faction, which has suffered terribly in the wake of all this. We could use a miracle, but only the DMs can provide that sort of thing.

So, I ask.. is it a little too much to ask for some good news for a change? XD Or have we had it and I've just been blind to it?

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I have to kinda second this (and thus is why I have not been on as much of late save for essential RP/specific request) , but as an example, some Divine assistance had come the way of the isle recently.

I do have to admit, sometimes I'm climbing the endless staircase of averting disasters and just plain bad luck. I approve of this message.

That being said, I do love evil, so don't stop doing that either.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Double-edged sword. Dues ex machina takes a previously dire plot and turns it into a theme park ride or a movie. Help can come in smaller ways. Lucky research, a tool in the right place at the right time, a cluebat here and there. Let the PCs validate their efforts. Why would they try if angels fix it? Mana did a good job with this. 'Truth' lent a hand in a tight spot, but the PCs were still flattened because they sucked. If the heroes fail even with small help, use dues ex machina to avoid making the setting unplayable, but make them suffer for having to use it.

If you play the role of the hero, you must take the bad things and turn them into the miracle you want. If you play the role of the villain, you can take advantage of the poor state of affairs of the island. The way the plots are, at the moment, is a fantastic opportunity for roleplay, no matter what faction you are a part of, alignment, and so on.

The problem is lately that many of our characters (again, particularly in Kohlingen) are being forced into one or two lines of roleplay at the moment or face certain doom. Having dealt with some problems now for so long, it's burning some of us out in the extreme. I dread coming on Vera lately because of this.

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You have missed things.

Things have defenitely improved, I am sure you have noticed the lack of a big silvery orb above Kohlingen for one.

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

The grandness of the events has to scale to the grandness of the participants. Thus it becomes harder which in turn makes bad news really bad. For example it'd be lame to hype up a big bad undead invasion and then it turns out it was just a level 7 lich sending 4 undead frogs against the walls of Cordor.

Evil is just as annoyed at loosing as good is, but evil wins much less if even at all in the long run.

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Fear is not evil… It tells you what your weakness is. And once you know your weakness, you can become stronger as well as kinder. - Gildarts Clive, Fairy Tail, Hiro Mashima.

The greatest heroes have to plumb through the darkest times imaginable before coming out at the other side with even a sliver of hope for the future.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Leathan's not asking for handholding or for the dark times to go away. He's asking for at least occasional good news. Given how the good guys are doing right now, that's not such a terrible request. Most baddies probably don't realize how it feels to play the good guys right now - and it's not a recent thing. It's been this way for a long time.

And Hudson, it is good that Kohlingen doesn't have a sphere and is making headway against their plague, but you say that like they don't care about the other places who do have a giant sphere - and there's nothing they can do about it because yet again it's some uber powerful evil that can't be stopped. Kohlingen players probably feel like they're stuck at a standstill, helpless to do anything. In fact, it's taken almost absolute stagnation to keep that plague under control. The players can't do -anything- else. You should know what that's like better than most. That isn't a good thing. It's detrimental.

Just to give it some perspective!

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When I'm player-side with Ulrik, I will admit I feel the same way right now. And I agree it is hurting certain factions. The number of massive plots and Realm-ending evils is higher than it should be, and this has a disparate effect on a certain stripe of the player-base. Typically the good-aligned are forced to act, whereas the more morally gray characters can pick and choose how and where they get involved. This is well and good. Until you have multiple realm ending threats in the same place and at the same time. And while its fine to occasionally make characters pick and choose where to devote their resources, when things go on for years (as some plots have), it results in natural burn-out.

Though this is a matter the DM-team is aware of. It is something we are actively trying to deal with. Please bear in mind that we can't, for the sake of the various stories, just hand-wave things away. But it is something the team is mindful about.

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Playing:
Marcus Valis

Jes -

I believe this really isn't a good/evil issue. I think this is more a serverwide thing, imo, because for example, I can't remember the last bit of good news I got from drow. For my character, the more she unravels in any plot, the worse it seems to get.

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Let me throw some dangerous bit of two cents: We live in a world that is run purely by deities and we have this strange catch 22 that we can't have too much deity interaction, which contrasts so severely from canon lore (at least, proportionally) so where people would see power, strength, or hope, or whatever their deity provides them, they are instead given silence because people seem to complain about favoritism, or something similar. So that leaves us getting stuff (and don't take this the wrong way) like far realms beings basically flooring our characters, leaving them wondering.. "God we are so helpless against these godlike creatures."

If you look at how societies handle huge events and perils, the individual religious groups will usually turn even more religious. Lloth will send avatars to remind me people not to betray her, and force them by fear to do what she wants. Even she (which I feel is the most evil deity) is willing to communicate with her priestesses often, through even commune. What she commands might not be the right thing for the drow as sometimes it's mass sacrifice and depletes a lot of your population, to someone like me, it still adds more authenticity, and it is certainly a concrete reminder of why your character might worship Lloth. That is just one example.

What I'm getting at is that every character needs deities to come back to life when they die. In the stories it doesn't always have to stop at that. A lot of characters, divine casters especially thrive off the example they perceive their god to set / and or desire.

I think the overall good news/bad news thing is true to some extent, and I think it ties into this thought I have almost directly. Personally, my PC has found herself now fearing potentially 4 aboleths, illithid ships, a rogue illithid lich that seems immortal, skum invasion, water elementals cutting off the only fresh water supply, stalagmite crumbling, demon invasion, surfacer invasion, etc, the list goes basically goes on and then after a while I remember that I have it all backwards, and my PC should be fearing Lloth more than anything.

I can think of interactions from deities that have given people hope in strange ways, even though I realize after being told about certain events, where players just group up and get mad at the "divine signs" they're given for whatever reason, even from their own god. There are always going to be people who others feel represent their deities poorly, but we cannot let this spoil it for everyone else.

When the Banite temple in Skull Crags fell, after what literally tore hearts/desire out the way it happened, Bane himself shot a giant green rayed fist in the air, almost promising retribution and hatred. As a follower, my character looked on in wonder and suddenly the loss didn't feel as significant, even though we'd just lost the best thing we had. Another quick example, is when we were conducting a mass in the church, the room went dark, and the orbs glowed and we all certainly felt Bane's presence. It was -awesome-. Was Bane telling us we were doing the right thing? No. But it definitely motivated my character in so many ways to just keep achieving. Sometimes even the most little of things....

A lot of people are going to completely disagree, and I realize also that nobody wants to be told what to do. But my mind has been polluted by reading so many amazing canon stories, it just leaves me curious to see if we can't be a bit more inspired by these, while also not encouraging people to get upset over "favoritism" or if their personal OOC ideals differ from what the DM might infer from a divine sign. I don't think people should be so quick to conclude that there's only one way to do something. I think divine signs should leave any devout follower in wonder and awe, but maybe that's just me. And I play pure evil so I can't imagine it's too different for good players either..

PS. I'm not asking gods to solve their followers problems. I'm just saying, maybe they shouldn't always be so complacent. For better or for worse. They feel dead to me, most of the time. To me, that's almost certainly why I feel like my character is perpetually drowning.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

I'm not entirely sure I understand this thread. Are players unhappy with events they involve themselves in? Or too many events?

If so! I know a lot of people who would be glad to have an abundance of these problems!

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MuseReader: Aiseth Nosdivan- Master Enchantress

Sometimes the players cannot choose the events they have to get involved in. It's forced on them, and sometimes the weight is rather overbearing, and there is no end of the tunnel.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

"All tunnels lead somewhere."
~Drow Saying

Drow good things:
•Nec'perya~Blank Slate
•Bad Ass Boat

UD Good Things:
•L'Obsul is wide open for any UD racial groups to come on in and mix things up!

Drow/Whole of UD bad things:
•Aboleth lurking somewhere out there.
•Navigation issues (which are being worked on and aren't so much an IC thing as an OOC user friendly pain in the butt).

@ Gods: As a DM, I have done my utmost to shift things from gods roaming the streets saying how things are/should be to something that actually requires a bit more faith/interpretation. One of my favorite devices to use are hallucinations due to spider venom. The intended result is a player analyzing what their character saw and having them answer how their character interprets it, keeping what is seen thematically direct, but specifically vague. I know it isn't directly in keeping with Lolth just dropping in for Tea, turning half the population into Driders for the LOL(th) factor, and telling it how it is and dictating how things should be, but it so far seems like the best option available for keeping players in the spotlight (where I feel they rightly belong).

To give you an idea of my decision making process on direct signs, here is some insight to my approach on the matter: Say you guys get a Draegloth (in canon one of the best 'blessings' of 'validity in the eyes of Lolth' a settlement can receive), what would happen then? If a PC births it, cries of favoritism will undoubtably creep up. If an NPC births it, the wrong impression is sent and what should be (in my opinion) player freedoms to guide themselves toward glory or ruin start being handed over to NPCs. From there on out it would inevitably mean that all good and bad things will get attributed either directly or indirectly to my own actions as a DM, hence robbing you guys of the sense of accomplishment that comes with earned, player-driven rewards.

I am not omnipotent though, nor am I beyond critique, so if you can offer some insight on the matter from the player perspective or have any thoughts on work arounds, I am all ears!
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Kohl folks, as a precursor to the following, I in no way am attempting to downplay your concerns at all. I believe them to be justified in a sense.

However, as friendly advice, it is extremely hard to hear good news and celebrate things when cooped up in the inner Keep. Usually when people come to the keep it isn't with glad tidings, but rather it has to do with serious business. If you are always in there focussed ICly on the bad stuff going on, your characters are only then ICly depriving themselves of what else is out there.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I didn't mean to suggest bad guys are getting a bunch of good news or something! I did say "probably" because some baddie players were telling the good guys to suck it up in their own glorious way.

I agree that it's a server-wide problem. But if it's a known one that's being managed gradually, then good!

And Dusty, I'm not sure that's entirely fair to the Kohl folks. If they log in, spend a little time around the Keep and then log off, that probably means they're not feeling any incentive to linger. Instead of telling them to "go outside" maybe they should be given the opportunity to feel like logging in doesn't mean they have to resign themselves to being utterly crushed under the weight of their responsibility as good PCs/paladins/etc.


Edit: I will note, however, that the timing of this thread is slightly off. As Hudson said, there is some light in regard to the silver plague. But keep in mind that it's just been building up for so long and Leathan's post echoes thoughts that have been around much longer than the silver plague!

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Thanks for that. Frankly, I'm actually offended by this. The 'absolutely nothing they can do about it' you're talking about? That's what stamped out the plague in Kohlingen. This 'uber powerful evil' that can't be stopped has been stopped, repeatedly, by player actions. You aren't aware of how because you weren't involved. Almost every PC involved in curing the plague has had clear influence in improving the situation, and those doing research have seen clear results to their benefit. So unless people are telling you things which they should be telling me, like that they feel helpless in my plot and want some guidance, then you don't have the full picture here.

I didn't mean to offend you, Mana. I'll have a better response when I'm not rushing at work. :/

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If we as DMs provide the catalyst, the next time bad things happen to the region or Kohlingen, the reaction will again be to turtle up. We can't be the ones to force you out or give reason to leave the keep. Players need to find that for themselves. If not, then you all will follow this argument around to the other extreme. It can't be on the DM team to supply your individual player happiness, nor the source of all mirth for your characters. We can certainly help with the IC stuff, but OOC is on you. That is something you guys have to find for yourselves and we can only support you in that endeavor through open dialogue.

What we can do for you all IC is limit the number of world ending threats (which is the plan after these present major plots wrap up) and stress the victories the settlement/faction has been achieving. The rest is up to you guys.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

The lesson in this is a simple one. There is an aspect to DMing that is smoke and mirrors, and there are ways to give PCs and their players a motivation, some solid ground, a sense of progress, and sometimes even a huge neon HINT about where to focus their energies for success.

The other side of the lesson is that players do need to communicate this to the DMs regularly, and with respect. I am very grateful to the players who did the same for me when I was DMing and let me know what seemed to be missing in their experience. I only wish I had not been such a proud loner at the time and could have relied upon my fellow DMs to help, much in the way the current team does now.

I will say that Kohlingen peeps seem to have a tendency to wall themselves up and thus not get their hands dirty, but to apply this across the board is unfair because a lot of you do invest good time in the server both inside the walls and outside, contributing in the ways you can. Spineshatter for instance (though ironically I, a non-Kohlinger, introduced that before leaving it to the real military commanders). My own PC harps a lot on what he sees as an IC trend towards insularity, which really seems to him born out of fear more than anything, and you know what they say about people who make decisions based on fear...

...but I am drifting there towards themes best addressed IC rather than OOC.

Well, someone had a trip to the Spine planned a good year before Yossarin began suggesting it. It was delayed by the end of the world

As for the matter-at-hand, I'm going to suggest we come at this from a point of mutual understanding. We DMs want our plots to be enjoyed by our players. They aren't meant to be a catalyst for any negative OOC attitudes. As Dusty mentioned, we are working to conclude the current and lingering plots. And I believe the team, as a whole, should be involved in coordinating and planning events than span the spectrum: the occasional elder evil is necessary. But plots that are scaled back a notch, more local events where decisions and consequences can truly shine, are also important and should be our bread-and-butter. At least, that is my own opinion.

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Playing:
Marcus Valis

I also just want to quickly point something out. In regards to gods not being active, divine assistance not happening and a lack of NPC helpers, within the last week, two of the most powerful celestials came down from the heavens literally just to deal with a problem, and then left. Just throwing that out there.

The Elves of Winya Ravana have been about dealing with Amon / Quintessence / Fiends / Etc that all seem to be happening at the same time-- and it does feel like there's so much that it is difficult to deal with. That does not, however, stop us from trying to deal with them, taking action, doing research, or finding what good there is left and celebrating it. Amidst all the terror and elder evil plots, we've still held camps and told stories, protected our borders together, planted new foodstuffs, discussed internal and external politics, held a wedding, mourned the passing of friends, elected councilmen, observed Elven holidays, and the list goes on.

We're not the largest settlement on Amia, player and NPC wise, by far; we're also currently lacking an active and focused DM ... but maybe it's because we're elves that we can come together, work on what needs working, bicker amongst ourselves, and still sit down for some much needed revelry and mischief at the end of the day.

That said, with all of the bad stuff that keeps piling up, I can't remember a time when we've met in blatant failure that didn't open doors to something else. We're all digging deeper holes, but we're becoming stronger because of it.



Yes, Winya is currently wishing it had less divine attention right now.

I didn't mean to sound critical or even unappreciative. I enjoy almost each and every encounter.

I personally like the plots I listed to a varying degree, especially the aboleth one. Admittedly, at times, I feel a bit frustrated at other plots, but I try not to focus on the negatives anymore. I enjoyed the spider-bearer boat rides. There's so much to the story that we can talk for hours just theorizing things as simple as the history of the city we live in. I think it has a rich and fulfilling back story that has done everything we wanted and perhaps more. I really enjoy every interaction we have, even if maybe as players we're not smart enough to move the plot at a high speed.

But, admittedly, some plots that I'm forced to get involved in, I really cannot appreciate them as much, because I see them as surface plots. I don't see why my character, who's true to the drow, would research or care about a surface plot, but since she actually has gotten stuck in the middle of a few of them with me having no way to avoid it, all my RP has literally sometimes been completely changed to try and cope with this. Even after paragraphs, and days and more stories, and enough pages to write books, I sometimes feel like I'm still stuck in that plot. Other people just stopped posting, because they got tired of it. But if I feel like it's preventing other RP, how can I simply ignore it? I'm willing to more than bet that even people who play on the surface have run into this as well.

I have determination and I think a blank slate is nice. But I'd venture to say that the majority of the players don't want to always play on a blank slate forever. Some of us have actually been through several major destructions and have lost everything and not had any control over it. Are we better off now than before? I think so, but I can't really convince anyone who stopped playing that it's any better. Why? Because there's not really as much allure to starting over, to people who feel like it's just going to get blown up and their efforts wiped clean just like they were before. Every time a drow city falls, essentially, that's a server wipe to us. I'm 8 months into my return, and I've really had my character give every last effort into improving the city, and it's happening, but maybe not at a pace that encourages people to play. I still won't give up, because I play for the long game I guess, and I see things differently, but not everyone wants to RP in a city that I'll just say is very underwhelming to someone who isn't aware of all its intricacies. I'd almost say it's incompatible with drow roleplay right now, because any meaning of the vanity simply cannot be found, and even my PC has been trying dearly and desperately to fix that.

There are dialogues without DM's that can be filled entirely with information being shared, and RP towards or against a plot and how it effects one's character development. This is great. I enjoy it. But sometimes if a plot requires a solution before advancement can happen, and there are no developments in a reasonable time frame, or even any RP given to those who pour their soul into making something out of nothing..it can tire players out.

Just like you don't want to take the wheel and have Lloth turn half of Nec'perya into driders, so too do many players not want to have godlike creatures take the wheel and steer their RP into infinity. As I said though, the aboleth to me, is a good plot, with lots of intrigue. Sometimes it has frustrated me, but over time, I've learned to be appreciative of the story telling, because it's very well done, and props to Dusty and everyone else involved in it. But just because I enjoy the plot doesn't mean that it's good news.

I realize that a lot of the burden is on me as a player, and a faction leader, to keep things interesting for other players. I feel like we have amazing potential and an amazing DM, as I said. But I think there's several things that keep people from logging on. As you said, the leveling system in the UD (which btw, you're awesome for looking at), the lack of any kind of impressive infrastructure in Nec'perya. Note: This is important, because people who played drow remembered Edonil suffered from the exact same problem. And I don't think it's remotely fair to say that the playerbase hasn't been busting their asses for longer than I've been around to make the city at least shine a little bit.

In your example, birthing a draegloth admittedly that is something that my character has very seriously considered trying to do, because of my original stated problem. Maybe people would be upset. Who knows. But the reason for her wanting to do this isn't really for power, because at this point, can anyone really contest the fact that my character already doesn't have that power? It's because she feels that Lloth has all but forsaken Nec'perya, and really doesn't have any real proof to think otherwise. She just wants the city to be alive. And as a player, so do I.

Woah, that was long winded. Sorry guys, I love you all.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Oh, yeah, you're right.

Mercedes,
Shout out to Winya! Show me your inner Drow!

More seriously though, as you touched on settlements without necessarily active DMs, we are actually working on shifting out of the settlement DM system.

For the past few months, we have been laying the ground work for present and future DMs to be in constant contact with each other and have fully up to date records on every settlement. The end goal is that anyone on the team will be able to run anything they like, wherever they want, to cater to as many PCs as possible as well as have the ability to maintain solid server-wide continuity. That way, even if a DM steps down for whatever reason, any over arching plots would continue and the settlement won't skip a beat ICly as they are covered by anyone/everyone on the Team! Not sure when it will be fully ready to be actively implemented, but it is in the works!

((Credit to Glim for having the foresight on this.))
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Mim, and all my UD Drow Players,

I am aware that you guys like me, and I apologize for my own failings to you all in that my play time is so restricted. Also, I can't speak to the locations which fell before my time as a DM, but I will say Edonil's fall was completely player driven. It did not have to fall, but it did, and when it did you weren't left stranded as it opened a golden opportunity of a door to something that could prove to be so much greater (and undoubtably will under you guys' PC's control!). I realize it is discouraging to lose something, and that 'blank slate' can be thought of as both a blessing and a curse. Believe me when I say you guys should see this one as a blessing!

There is something amazing coming your way. There are 2 things I have been both working on and doing in the past 2 weeks which will bring a fun new change to Nec'perya and allow it (and a certain somewhere else) to grow in a pretty cool fashion!

Without spoilers, all I can say is -Soon-.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I tingle with excitement .

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

To clarify and amend what I said earlier, I will say that I think it's awesome that the great amount of effort put in by the Kohlingen players was able to abolish the plague from the city. That's a huge win, given what happened to the other settlements. My earlier criticism was regarding the end-of-the-world aspect that runs into the other settlements. Taking into account the role Kohlingen characters tend to take in such affairs, this is still a huge plot and problem for them. But I should have been more mindful of the way I expressed that!

But a win is a win and I agree that it can be easy to overlook one when still surrounded by so much bad. We all need to work on that, I think. We're getting burnt out and edgy, trying to find the fun again. It'll be a joined effort between players and DMs, finding that sweet spot again. I certainly won't claim to be perfect in this regard. My wording in the post above that ruffled Mana's feathers was not gentle, despite that I didn't mean to come off so bitter and jaded.

So again, Mana, sorry about that!

Everyone else, let's keep these wheels rolling and look forward to what's in store. I think the current DM team acknowledges the frustration many of us feel and I've noticed a lot of changes that I think leads us in the right direction.

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I'd like to talk with ya briefly in Private next we can , Manarethan.

This thread kind of reminds me of that Kohlingen one about the knights losing relevance. In that thread many stated that it was caused ICly, and that it shouldn't be dealt with OOCly. Some of whom are remarking on this thread about the prevalence of world-ending threats. I don't know if people are just asking for the same amount of bad news, + more good news to keep spirits up, or that the bad news should be wrapped up more easily. I don't really like this idea. It cheapens the victory if, in response to this thread, we start clearing uber-threats like last week's garbage. In fact, I sincerely hope the DMs can assure me that the next uber-threat we beat with anything less than the blood, sweat and tears of a thousand grown men, wasn't just handed to us to appease other players.
Although if it's just about giving a better sense of progress and what to do next, I'm cool with it. The number of threats doesn't change, nor the difficulty, but we have more direction. I have no disagreements with anyone suggesting thus. But maybe I'm missing something, is there even really that many major threats? Am I actually missing something, or maybe you're counting two threats where I consider it to be one? Maybe I'm just jaded? If I am missing something, maybe that's the problem - certain threats are only known by a few, who would rather deal with it themselves than spread it around...

Mimiron mentions the drow having to deal with surfacer problems, but from what I know, no DM really decided to bring Nec'perya into them. One or a few drow PCs got involved, and then it ended up spreading to the settlement. I don't think it's possible to isolate the problem unless you want special exceptions written into a plot structure to exclude Nec'perya. Which sounds like a lot of work and may actually be less compelling for some drow players who actually happen to like getting involved in that stuff (really, I for one love the feeling when a threat my PC has been watching on rears its ugly head among my usual PC group. "Aha! I know how to deal with this!" it's a very special moment). Don't get me wrong, I understand the distaste, but I think the DM hands are tied.

But that's not really what I wanted to talk about. Yoss mentioned it, but I think there's more to it than the simple fact that good PCs are compelled to get involved. I told Silky this once before, "If the factions and cities could get their shit together, we'd be doing a lot better against the major threats right now" but the fact is, they aren't. And that's fine and dandy, it's perfectly IC for Kohlingen to be insular and wary of dealing with anyone whom they consider shady, for so-and-so to be exactly as shady and ruthless and unlovable (also ugly and smelly in Avadon's case) as Kohl says, for Cordor politics to be a mess, and for Winya to have a better working relationship with drow than angels. Things have developed naturally that way. But you kinda have to deal with those IC outcomes. No one's making you play characters who enter situations in which they can't cooperate with others working to the same goal. I mean, many PCs could probably find it in their hearts to be a little more willing to compromise and cooperate.

But just looking at the Quintessence plot - the amount of different factions involved for the same reasons but who are handling it independently, is staggeringly hilarious. There are maybe a handful of runners trying to link them up, and most of them seem not to get along with each other. Really, if everyone put on their big boy pants we would probably have solved it already! But even from my character's perspective I can see just how much all the sides are hamstringing each other through failure to communicate. Although the part where the rings were divided between Factions worked nicely. I mean, I thought it looked kinda epic... a little bit... Anyway. It's being worked on ICly. We'll see how that goes.

Edit: I forgot to mention something. It's around the first paragraph now.

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@Thanatopsis#6293

I love the events, just wished my free time coincided with the time things typically happen. Such is life.

To be honest and in response to the OP, I'd say the way Amia is makes sense to me. Amia is a teeny, tiny speck of insignificant dirt in a big, vast world that doesn't matter a while lot in the grand scheme of things. The gods are going to have their attentions focused on things far more pertinent and important than their interests than at best, a very little portion of their followers on some castaway island almost no one had heard of. That said it makes Amia a very good choice for those seeking to take advantage of that fact when picking out a place to enable their dark plots. Are you a dark netherworld cabal seeking to turn innocents into gibbering mouthers and the countryside into chaos soup? Best off trying to gain your foothold in Podunk unnoticed instead of on Waterdeep's lawn.

So it makes a lot of sense Amia's mortals have to deal with these things themselves. However, if one really wants divine attention and aid, it makes a lot more sense to patron local, "homegrown" deities like Salandra than big boys like Torm, since their interests and base are keenly directed with the island.

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

As someone who's pretty much lost relevance to the main plot and would really like some bad news to deal with? I'd like to personally invite you to play in Tarkuul, where I'm bored out of my mind because we let our leads slip because of inactivity. Handle these problems in game instead of asking for an OOC resolution. It cheapens the plot if you complain about the plot until the DM caves.

There. I said it in plain terms.

And that's not to say that I need a bone, I'll figure my own way back into the swing of things since I'm getting active again. But it just irks me when people do this. The Dale did it too, and now the plague has been questionably cured over there.

I'm not going to say that it was "just cured because some of the player base wouldn't stop pissing and moaning about it" but it's starting to look like that from what I've seen in game and heard from both players and characters.

The Bendir Dale example may be in poor taste, so reprimand me if you will, but it's not fair that a part of the setting gets to be active and a major contributor to the setting without actually having to reconcile with the problems the setting is facing. The Dale isn't on another continent. And I will make the allowance for this, and admit that I could be wrong. If I am, that's awesome. I would really like to be wrong about this, really desperately like to be. And if I'm wrong don't spoil it. But I would very much like to know that it isn't "dues ex complainia" at work here.

Again I apologize if it's in poor taste, but someone has to be blunt about this half of the sentiment here.

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Well till my Deity status request gets the thumbs up you have to just settle for skeletors 'assistance' in time it will be upgraded to divine assistance.

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================-<Cory ShadowFlame>-================
Risenlord-Shifter(OMG a Non-Dragon Shifter that can hold his own in PvE)

Actually, MightNMagic, there's a very tangible IC reason why Amia sees all the oddities it does. There's a reason this tiny island was the battlefield of the Celestia, and a reason why darker powers are grasping at it.

I won't give any specific spoilers, but there is an item in game that literally explains the existence of conflict on Amia over the course of its life-- and why it is growing in conflict now.

So while I love your rationale, because its the viewpoint of an optimistic player, and what I think/hope to be the viewpoint of most people on Amia trying to rationalize ICly why there's so much chaos and strife, its not objectively correct.

~~~~

That being said, this entire subject is something that players have been bringing up in the past two months or so. At least, enough to warrant some serious DM decision making. And that's what we have been doing. We heard your cries when you first started making them, but for the exact concerns Serbiris and Bob were getting at, we haven't been willing to wash away the plots with a weak amount of closure.

I'll emphasize something that was mentioned before in these same kinds of threads: The plotstuff and the climaxes that you guys are flustered with, because so much is happening all at one point, is the direct result of roughly 5-8 years of plotwork finally concluding. The years of careful intelligence gathering, small, seemingly unrelated mysteries, and back-alley fighting have concluded (At least, for this plot). There was a time in this plot when it was far less conflictual, and when people could look the other direction because they could either choose to disbelieve it as a true threat, or didn't want to needlessly scare people. But through years of dedicated IC effort, by both player and DM, you're now seeing a climax.

We've heard your complaints, and we're actively preparing to scale down affairs. But we ask your patience while we're wrapping up these big plots that deserve better than a wave of a hand simply to appease a flustered section (I couldn't say whether its a majority or minority, or even how/if to weigh opinions) of the playerbase.

That had NOTHING to do with any ooc player sentiment and was a direct result of certain actions taken.
If you don't know of it that does not mean it didn't happen. Some things are done out of the spotlight and if you want to know how it happened I warmly invite you, and everyone, to try and find it out ingame.

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Characters played:

Harold Kendry (Illusionist) -> see avatar
Elloanore (Travelling bard)

Bendir Dale's complaints were never that the Blood Curse was thrust upon us, it was that it was thrust upon us with no DM aid for us to roleplay and continue to search avenues for it. What this did was get DMs involved so we could forward the plot to reach the ultimatum we're at now. If you take one quick look at the Bendir Dale forums, you can see that the settlement's players have been VERY proactive in the past month.

I won't have you belittle what has been great, tough and long RP as "it magically disappeared".

I won't derail this further, but I will add for Kohlingen that you do have DM aid. If you want to push through the bad stuff you need to roll up your sleeves and do so (not that I'm saying you are or aren't right now). You have some amazing active DMs for both the plots you're undergoing and your settlement's DM (though DustSpray mentioned settlement DMs are a thing being shifted out of), maybe take a leaf out of Bendir Dale's book and reformat and think about it from both an IC and OOC perspective.

I know you guys are amazing RPers, and to quote someone on my overall view:



If you're not telling the DMs running the plot what efforts you're trying to do while they're busy not being omnipresent, you can't expect them to forward your RP. With all my gripes on how I felt the Blood Curse was dealt with on Bendir Dale, I give major props to Nihi for being a DM where if we sent "I tried X with Y, what happened?" you'd get a reply. I bet pretty much all the DMs with the "doom and gloom" plots are going to do the same.

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In all honesty. I kind of left Winya for OOC reasons, and partly due to IC reasons.

My OOC reasons simply were the fact that I've tried multiple times to gather players, get the plots moving, get the changes made done. And it simply came such a burden for me. It is not easy to try to deal with all these matters at once, DM's plots that simply lead nowhere and your left with IC consequences to deal with. Plus the fact that even if I try to get DM's involved, it is very hard to get anyone to touch Winya Ravana, because of being elfs. Sometimes mere observation over a magical ritual is enough, not requiring to know elf-lore. (Thanks Nihilius for that time.)

Someone stated it should not be taken OOC:ly, however, when the OOC is what leads to the problem in IC. It is extremely hard to look at it the other way around. I know I've stated this before, for example the Winya Mage Tower. The whole renovations of Winya Ravana at beginning was basically a competition between three Noble Houses, to see who can get what done, to get members of their House to positions of responsibility and authority in Winya Ravana. Durothils had the Temple mostly made in 4 months or so, Amarillis the same.. But House Le'Quella, took 2 years to complete one Mage Tower. During the whole time a good number of characters were asking of it and all I could say "It is under work.." "There has been some difficulties." It costed my character a good amount of respect and insults IC:ly, the fact that the designer vanished OOC:ly. Now, please understand.. I am not blaming Mahtan for this, not at all, I discussed with him a lot and understand his real life situations simply didn't allow him to take on the work sooner, plus it was not his fault either the original designer left. And the only reason I bring this up is the fact that this OOC change, influenced my IC experience heavily.

I admit, I am a player who enjoys achieving matters, or failing to achieve matters as long as it gives a conclusion on the matter.

In Winya Ravana, I cant achieve anything with my character. Perhaps it is partly to IC reasons, but OOC:ly the difficulty of getting a DM supervision is extreme! What comes to solving matters, the constant RP:ing alone and taking screenies is very much starting to taste like... well bad. I've contacted DM's to try to ask when is their playing times so I could try to maybe stay up so late to do the things IC with supervision, but all I get is "Yeah, you can do it." And my questions are left unanswered and I go to some silent corner IG and start RP:ing casting divination's or doing research where others really are not that needed. And due to numerous IC reasons, my character is not left with many options than to do them herself, so that is why I don't get friends along. Plus usually, watching a mage PC do divination casting, can be quite boring.. Once RP.ied 2 weeks for casting Legend Lore.. So, don't want to force other player to get stuck in that.

During the past two years, Winya DM events have been more or less in this line: 'Living Silver assault', Magical plaque, Nothing.. Nothing.. Nothing, Amon, Quintessence, Fiends suddenly.. Nothing there is positive, the things we have had positive is usually player initiated, but it would be nice to see DM initiated good things happening and not everyone simply dying around you all the time. To actually see Winya grow or develop and not constantly having their population dying or the city not developing regardless of the initiatives the PC's take. What comes to the divine attention suddenly, well I've spoken with Rigela about it already, thanks for your attention. One great person she is.




This. It is very much the same case in Winya. Every time I try to catch a DM related to any of the plots, they usually are busy already. Could as well go boss hunting to spent my time.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

I understand some of your frustration, though likely not as well as you're trying to get it across-- I simply haven't made the strides you have only to have them fall flat. I'm an onlooker, here. I however think it is important to note that part of being in a city, or a faction, or a group should not be entirely focused on DM plots and threats to livelihood. We can't ignore these things, of course, because they are there and present and should be affecting everyone's (PC and NPC) lives. Like I stated above, though, Winya has been doing a lot that isn't necessarily related to that while other matters are pending. Not all characters are going to be interested in meeting with their kin, roleplaying out small things and participating in revelry, but many of us are not content to see this as the end of the world just yet.

Elves are supposed to live long and thus think for the long-term for the most part. I think trying to keep morale up by not giving up our lives in the face of evil and turmoil is a fantastic way to handle a city in the midst of confusing, often "silent" plots that we are forcibly involved in such as with Quintessence, the Celestials, and Amon. Many who are left in Winya have not stopped trying to progress outside of the plots, and others (shout-out to Mith) have actively stated IC their resolve to not only survive, but to live.

I suppose what I am trying to say is ... we can make good news, and while the DMs should be active and responsive regarding the plots they are handling, they should not be expected to hand the good news to us. The level of control the PCs have outside of these plots barring unforeseen circumstances (ie the Mage Tower) is great. If your characters begin to feel the stresses IC, that could be good roleplay and lead to interesting things-- if we're feeling the stress of it OOC, I think it is well to step back and look at it objectively. These plots are supposed to be engaging, but they're also designed for entertainment. We're all here to have fun, and I don't think I've ever had any more fun here than being a mundane elf who is powerless in the face of elder evils, and must cooperate with her kin to wring any good out of the city she's settled down in.

I'll bring up another personal experience because the DM is now gone and I know he doesn't care at all.

There was one time that my character was inflicted with a disease literally out of nowhere. It was no large scheme, no big deal plot, just a woman getting Bitten by a random wererat and turned into a veritable monster. Samantha was left with lycanthropy for almost a full OOC year despite a million attempts at a cure. She couldn't use any paladin abilities and she constantly lost control of herself because she sucks at rolling saves. The build I spent time on, the RP I developed with her between Cordor and Kohlingen, my plans for her history RP to appear.. All the plans got fucked. Players stopped wanting to RP with Sam (and therefore me!) because she became highly volatile, moody and entirely mentally unstable. Cordor officials avoided her and banned her from a city. Sam quit a holy order of knights because she was so ashamed of herself and felt evil. (She was evil.) She went to Tarkuul and even they didn't want her crazy! THAT is really getting fucked over. My whole character path was shifted without my prior consent and I lost soooooooooo many IC opportunities because a DM made an OOC choice to give my character a random encounter.

I went through so many of the thoughts in this thread at that period of my time here, but moreso because I was constantly shut out of RP rather than feeling overwhelmed by it. Frustration at stagnancy and overwhelmingly bad circumstances. But then I was speaking with said DM about what happened and why he thought infecting my treasured Sammypants was a good idea. He took a few moments and asked me, "Why do you like playing on Amia?" I was caught off guard because noone had ever asked. I thought of so many answers: To win! To waste time! To chat! To have a creative outlet! To tell a story! To explore myself through characterization! On and on I went. He laughed and asked if I could choose one reason, what would it be? It took me a long time to answer you, Roberto, but I finally can phrase it well!

I RP on Amia to experience a magical version of life.

Once I realized this, everything in the game became more fun. Life isn't always pretty. You don't always get what you want or planned and honestly... Those are some of the best things you'll ever have a chance to have. Just like my boyfriend sitting down across from me at a lunch table when all I really wanted was to be alone, giving Samantha lycanthropy was the ability to deal with real life issues in each moment WITH my character, not FOR her.

I'm still super grateful to that DM for the experience, the growth and especially his questions. He asked them because I'm sure he wanted to make sure he helped me get something out of the trauma as a player as well. And he did. The whole year of destructive RP and failure made the eventual success of the cure so fulfilling and epic and super involved. I remember Darby, Nevaeh and Alanna chasing Samantha through the under tunnels of Cordor and Nev super-punching her into the wall. It got so good...

Anyways, I guess my point is that sometimes it can be the most freeing and fantastic experience to have a character go in directions SO opposite of your expectations. Control of a character and success can be rewarding, but I promise it's better when it feels the way you're describing it. I cannot imagine a Samantha without the oppression of the Arcanum. Just focus on communication with said DM you feel stagnated by and express yourself. They may not always be able to work with you exactly how you expected (Leathan and Grymia) or on your timeline (Magiros) but perhaps if you explore why this game is fun for you, you will figure out ways of finding that yourself regardless and the rest will fall into place.

Then again, maybe I'm just too glass half-full and others play this game for a far more specific reason. I know that you're really into research RP, Grymia, and that you enjoy playing bright and varied characters, Leathan. But it may be you two could find new kinds of fun like me if you went along with different things for a bit. I dunno! If it doesn't work out that way, your first loves of research and such will always be there to welcome you back. RP choices aren't spurned lovers.

If it was truly a random encounter, than that is absolutely one hundred ten percent not fair. (However, if it was a random encounter's CONSEQUENCE that's seperate and I'll distinguish)

Random Encounter's Consequence:

Peasant runs up asking for help dealing with inhumanly large rats on his farm. PCs go and help. They turn out to be were rats and in the process, one of them gets bitten and fails their initial lycanthropy save. Congratulations, you're a Lycanthrope.

Random Encounter:

A rat comes out of the blue and bites you while standing around somewhere nonhostile, Boom. Lycanthropy.

---

Sufficient to say I have my own perspective involved in that. If the DM thought for fun and giggles, it'd be awesome to give you Lycanthropy just because, then I personally do not see that as fair.

If the DM thought that it'd be fun to plug you into a situation involving wererats or what have you that COULD have gotten lycanthropy and it happened, that's the nature of the situation you were faced. I'll toss an example from the same DM and his colleague at the time.

---

Vaelmith had recieved a gift from someone after standing up to a baddy *Both giftgiver and baddie were PCs*.

That gift had an OOC note on it explaining that it could make the owner susceptible to a specific individual's mind control. Later on, during an incident the person who had control used it to make Vael do something utterly reprehensible and he could never fully forgive himself for.

Though it was a subtle and very well played manouver on the part of the foes responsible, it didn't feel like it was random and there was absolutely nothing that could be done about it (Yes, there was no Saving through which does make me mildly twitchy but the logic behind the 'Why' made sense).

Hm. You may be getting lost in parts of each situation that I don't find important. Determining "fair" and "unfair" circumstances is up to each of us, ultimately. I was able to find power and excitement in a circumstances that could look from the outside to be overwhelmingly "bad" because I took a moment of self reflection and communicated my inner dialogue. My point has nothing to do with laying blame, Grymia, or even worrying about it at all. The point was to explore the reasons you play the game deep down and where you may grow into having even more fun with something unexpected and perhaps "unfair."

For example:

Do you play Amia to engage exclusively in research RP and have your character become increasingly specialized in one new area?

Or.

Do you play Amia to engage with other players in an informative experience that truly reveals the depth of thought and intrigue in a certain plot, aspect of Faerun and/or another PC?

Edit: Also, unsure why this topic is in the IA forums.

Well, I can't claim knowledge of everything going on, but my points still make sense to me. There will always be an earth shard, a magic obelisk, the prison of the Elder Evil to be cracked open, the Infinity Gauntlet, or whatever MacGuffin the DM shoehorns in to fight over. Inevitably someone will get it or it'll be destroyed and in time pass out of relevance as they always do til the next MacGuffin is heard about. Amia will still be there the day after tomorrow and still be an island of a handful of folks solving their own problems.

If something is truly, truly world-shatteringly important to the big boys, then I'd be expecting to see the big boys wandering about - Elminster, influxes of religious armies, proxies themselves. Otherwise it just doesn't feel setting proper imo. If I were playing a Greyhawk campaign and get blind-sided by an incursion of Elder Evil spawn of Tharizdun, my first response is going to be "what the heck is Mordenkainen and his circle doing?"

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Rashad the Azure, Zakharan Merchant-lord Most Fair and Master of the Desert Wind
Loremaster Tukson Devers, Oghmanyte Wrestler of Knowledge and Child of the Passive Voice

(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)

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Gerald Edmund
Discord: Metal Viking Guy #5433

DC taxation is theft!

Just to clarify Estara. There was not any specific outcome I was expecting. However, when your left inside four walls to rp for 4 months because IC:ly your character is fucked up and simply can't move and the only one who can provide you answers/solution/conclusion leaves (Dm). Then there is nothing enjoyable at it. The only reaaon I finally got cured was that I Oocly decided if I need to suffer this shit theough, at least I could do it outside closer to possible rp, hence, ignoring one of the things hindering my toon so she could go out there.

The fact is, there is nothing wrong with having bad things coming my way, but when there is nothing to get out of the experience or the Dm simply leaves leaving me at my own devices when their plot have caused such damage to my character that most simply dont want to interact with her to find solution and I cant find it on my own because the Dm is not there... Then I see problems in this. No exit of the situation, no roleplaying with others, even permadeath would be a way out of it if someone granted it.

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http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm

And a drunk halfling told them to behave themselves. That was fun.

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In-Game: guano

So they'll come for an Archduke and Terzaroch, but they wouldn't come for Caraigh, they wouldn't come for Howness, they didn't intervene with The Rider and they haven't picked up on the Far Planes and worst of all is that they haven't picked up from their followers that there might be something going that threatens time & reality itself?

Celestia is like that friend who laughs at you, even as you're having every bone in your body broken.

Caraigh is a small island, not a point of interest for Celestia. Nor is Howness of interest to them. The Rider was a usurper that rose faster than their attention caught and is holed up in the Hells, they're actually better off with him in charge than Beezlebub because consolidating power takes time. The Far Realms is a special case and they do nothing for entirely IC reasons. The same is true with Reyes, IC reasons.

I mean, come on. Surely you don't want Celestials to solve all the problems that crop up? They came and dealt with two enormous threats. Isn't that good?

Ayup. There is always the concern of escalation to take into account. The more openly Outsiders get involved in the affairs of mortals, the more it draws the attention of other outsiders who draw the attention of others more. There are reasons why most Celestials who meddle in the material world do so covertly and by aiding, advising and inspiring mortal heroes rather than doing the task themselves.

Abeil-Toril would not be the first or the last material world to be ravaged by the Blood War or turned into a soldier farm for one of the factions on the planes.

EDIT: Also *cough* There may already be a certain celestial aiding, advising and inspiring the mortals who are dealing with the Caraigh problem.

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Gagis Silvarna, the Robocop with wings who shoots lasers from his fingertips
Lily Havthorn, the Waukeenar
Silwe, the elf

THIS THIS THIS THIS AND THIS AGAIN! I cannot stress this to much - The more we involve outsiders the more outsiders we will involve which snowballs into something SERIOUSLY DEADLY!

And I dread / anxiously wait for the results

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NWN Damage Calculator: http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/dnd/
NWN Build Calculator: http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn2/other/tool/characterbuildcalculator-nwn2-cbc2

Amia has enough (native) outsiders as it is!

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@Thanatopsis#6293