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It's likely different depending on the city, the races that inhabit it, and context, but ... What races are generally accepted living in an Underdark city? For example: L'Obsul or Edonil. I know places like Underport likely exist all over, as ports and trading hubs, but they seem a little more inclusive as long as everyone is following laws (though I don't know if even an evil halfling or elf would be accepted long without becoming a slave.)

How do these relations pertain to more odd examples, like.. fey, the UD going shadow elves, Genasi, dragonkin, and tieflings of non-typical UD races?

I don't think it's all that common for those sorts of cities to exist, really. There's Skullport, which is a metropolis dwarfing Underport in scope (at least, that's the impression I always got). But there's actually only one Underdark city I can think of with sizable portions of more than one free race (I'm discounting slaves). I can't remember its name but its setup was much like L'Obsul; a trading outpost manned by operations sent by each of the major races, each having an equal stake. In any case, surfacers are always going to stick out. Deep Imaskari are the only humans really native to the UD and they're an incredibly, unbelievably special case. Tiefer/genasi of any non-Underdark race are going to stick out, no matter how outcast they are above or how nasty they look. When I say stick out, I mean they're going to be noticed like any other adventurer, but it's impossible to really say what any of the established races will do to them (enslavement is a good bet). Usually not good things, because a lone traveller is rarely able to mount the force to give a city pause, and that's what it would take to stop UDers from taking advantage. Why trade with them or tolerate them when there's probably no one to bat an eye when you take everything they have? But mileage varies for Adventurers - powerful folk in the cities often have use for groups like those, and they'll offer protection in exchange for not having to pay hazard rates.

As for UD races: Orogs, Gloamings, Svirfs, Drow, Gobs, Kobs, Duergar... Chitins? Illithids... Hive beholders if they count... I probably missed some. Some are pretty weird. Just about all of them are well-represented down there and a few of them are actually neutralish or even good-aligned or something. Most aren't.

I'm not even sure where to find lore about shadow elves.

I haven't found any good lore on Shadow Elves or any of the other more esoteric subraces Amia has to offer. Thank you for the survey course, though, it was enlightening. If I understand correctly, you're saying that any of the more darker-inclined folk might try their luck in the UD, but only if they've proven themselves useful and crafty enough to avoid being manipulated into their death?

Duergar, kobolds and Svir have home areas off L'Obsul. So they seem to be accepted/tolerated. I've seen some pretty unlikely races in L'Obsul. Get ready though because the UD, even L'Obsul, is not welcoming to races not considered UD. (in some surprising and funny... funny to watch that is... ways)

I think you have the right of it though. If your tiefling has some use that a drow can take advantage of you're golden.... for a little while anyway, lol. And you'll find the drow RP worth the trip to L'Obsul to find out. :twisted:

If I were at home, I'd try to find a reference I read once, in a sourcebook describing the commerce of drow cities. Basically it said that the drow are such desired trading partners and such great merchants, that pretty much any race at all is welcome in the public areas of their cities, so long as they don't screw with Lolth's "peace" or act out of place. The blurb I'm remembering mentioned even humans and surface elves as being tolerated, if not exactly welcome. I wish I remembered off the top of my head what book that came from... Drow of the Underdark, maybe? I'll try to dig it up later when I'm by my books.

Svirfneblin settlements tend to distrust all outsiders, but they're less likely to use you for immediate profit (duergar) or kill you for sport (drow). And sometimes they get invaded by the nastier ones because really they're kind of the Clownfish of the Underdark.

Drow of the Underdark is Greyhawk, and has a lot of weird things that aren't compatible with Forgotten Realms or Amia. The Sourcebook you'll want is "Underdark".

Trade is a different story though, of course - but. You really need the backing of another city, or to be able to fake it. They can always just kill you and take your stuff, but they're less inclined to do that if that will sever the flow of future stuff.

There are 2 'racially neutral' cities on the server:

L'Obsul, which is maintains a semblance of balance as none of the races at play has enough force to push the rest out. Svirfs, Dwarves, Orogs, Kobolds, Duergar, and Drow dwell in the settlement as, more or less, 'equals.' Surfacers are generally untrusted.
Underport, which is under the control of Mindflayers. Peace is kept through fear of ending up a featured specimen at the slave auction if anyone dares to misbehave. Any who have dared to invite trouble within its borders have learned the cost all too well. All are welcome, even surfacers.

Edonil fell, so I assume you mean Nec'perya. Nec'perya is racially diverse, but the diversity found there is in the slaves, not their Drow masters.

I only used Edonil as an example of what I had assumed was a primarily Drow city in contrast to the others. Aside from surfacers, what about Unseelie fey, shadow elves, and "monster races" that are adventurers? Are cities like Nec'perya more or less puritan?

You can find some info on canon drow cities here: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/L ... row_cities
Keep in mind, there's 4e garbage lore mixed in that doesn't jive with Amia's split history.

Nec'perya will allow surfacers of course. We'd also prefer if you bring your own shackles, the rags of clothing are complimentary for the entirety of your stay :mrgreen:

More seriously though, it depends on the city. If it's a trade city like L'Obsul or Underport then surfacers can roam there, though I would assume in L'Obsul there's a bit less of a fuss if some nameless surfacer went 'missing'; Underport seems to have more stability on that given the illithids are in control there. In places like Nec'perya, though, you'd be hard pressed to find non-UD races roaming freely there because we're a bunch of bigoted jerks :>

But yeah with Nec'perya, there's the definite possibility of being a non-drow in the city without being a prisoner or slave; though taking up residence there might be a bit more difficult (I don't think we have any registered citizens there that are not drow) and you 'might' run the risk of being a seconrd (or third!) class citizen if you're non-drow.

I wouldn't say Drow in Nec'perya are bigoted jerks. My character has had conversations with other races, the ones who don't immediately take out their smite hammers get a dose of the reality of Drow society. No threats, no taunts, no PVP.

There are really good reasons for the things Drow do. It's not all about making a character to be able use a whip and act like a jerk. If a surface character expects to be able to go into Nec'perya and ignore the carefully constructed rules of Drow society then there are consequences. Your character is expected to know the rules. Not fair but there you have it. And honestly, who in their right mind would want to live in a Drow city as non-drow?

Nec'perya's ship transport from L'Obsul is Drow only. (A clue.) And as far as my character is concerned anyone acting suspicious in Nec'perya gets a free tour of the 'guest room' (jail cell) until they can be dispositioned by a priestess of Lolth. This includes Drow characters.

That said, thanks in large part to Mimiron/Miz'ri the drow RP is excellent. And you don't have to have a drow character in order to get involved. Trade/ business deals are a great way to get a foot in.

Just because you talk to another race cordially doesn't mean you are not a bigoted jerk ;p After all, the lesser races sometimes have more use than slavery, which is why such silvery-tongued conversation is good. It's perfectly reasonable for a character to not be able to stand the filth of a lesser under their surface but on said surface be calm and courteous (to a point). It's one of the things that makes drow fun, you never really know what they are thinking (always assume the worst).

( And 'bigoted jerks' was a jest, hence the :> )

In any case, Nec'perya is firmly in the hands of the players. Its outlooks are largely set by PCs with minor impacts from the non-'noble' Drow NPC population.

UD relations can often be simply summarized as "I hate you, you hate me, lets get up and kill Barney".

Jokes aside, I've always got the impression from the UD that it really is everyone against everyone, and everyone would kill and enslave everyone else if they get half a chance. The only way that they can maintain any kind of diversity is if the various powers are strong enough to keep each other in check but not strong enough to be overwhelming. Also keep in mind that societies like those of the goblins would have a humongous amount of infighting regardless of racial tension.

Pretty much everything in the UD is ruled through might and fear. Of course, any multiracial societies, being always on a knife's razor edge, are rather unstable, so all it takes is a pang for an imbalance to appear and then they'll gladly tear themselves apart in a humongous fit of infighting.

Now for who'd be welcome? Pretty much anyone who can survive in such a cutthroat, tense environment. Well, not welcome. Survive. A surfacer going down there would likely have no one backing them up, whereas kobolds/duergar would back one another up.

Kobra paints a mighty good picture of it, jokes and teasing aside. Though on this part:

The1Kobra wrote:

A surfacer going down there would likely have no one backing them up, whereas kobolds/duergar would back one another up.

With drow it's likely more of: Drow B is backing up Drow A against enemy Z. However after Z is killed, B kills A because B had an arrangement with Z however B let A kill Z and then in turn B kills A, thereby removing all evidence.

It's hard to put a label on how a race or individual will act in the Underdark: they will do what they need to in order to survive. How they choose to survive though is dependent on the individual, their alignment, their surroundings and their personality.

For example, Drow A will tolerate his peers because their strengths serve a purpose to him. Drow B will instead kill all of his peers because they're in his way. Drow C on the other hand doesn't trust his peers so decides to go lone wolf and Drow D chooses instead to sleep with the priestess and gain her favour, thus not requiring his peers at all.

With such a heavy dependency upon the individual and their actions, the response towards surfacers will vary from individual to individual. But, hostile environments ooze with distrust... and when everyone can't trust anyone, they will always target the weakest links first. As the minority and being heavily disadvantaged by the environment, surfacers will generally be perceived as the weakest link by most underdarkers and that will be taken advantage of.

R. A. Salvatore actually based a great deal of the drow lore on the novel "The Godfather". I think that example helps understand drow society quite well. The Matron Mothers are the mob bosses, while her priestesses act like the "made members" of the family. There are very strict and unforgiving rules that hold everything together, but underneath that is a cut throat world of chaos and intrique. Intrique, and cunning is silently applauded, as long as you do not upset anyone.

There is intrique within the families, between the families, between individuals, between the cities and between the nationalities. If you are drow, you will try to work for the noteworthy drow families to gain a semblance of protection and influence. If you are a polish outsider (like a a shadow elf) you might seek the protection of a drow family (italians) or duergar clan (irish), but you will not be able to rise very high given that is reserved for the drow or duergar respectivly. Still beats not having any protection at all, as then anoying someone for some reason can get very dangerous very quickly.

Buisness deals between the cities and nationalities of course help each party with it's own power, but they are always at competetion with one another. And the national pride will be dominant in almost every conflict. So if one duergar clan attacks a drow family, the other drow and duergar lines will likely bolster eachother respectivly. And open war seldom is beneficial for any party, unless one is certain you will be able to gain victory without much fall out. That also leads to the disciplining of your own, to appease the offended party, and avoid such a war.

Exceptions to the rules and traditions are acceptable, as long as you can get away with them. Powerful families and their influential members can naturally get away with more. But even they need to walk a line, and make certain not to upset the traditions too much. If they do, the weaker families bond together to topple them.

That is why House Baerne of Menzoberrazan, for example, makes sure it has enough power to be the first house, but it keeps a great deal of it's power hidden, as not to appear to be so far out of league of the second and third houses. If those get the impression they will never be able to topple it alone, it becomes a problem. So even house Baerne can not just do everything it pleases, as acting with no regard to the lesser houses, the political fall out of raising the cities other important families against it would be it's downfall.

There is an instict in most underdark races to make sure not to weaken your city or nationality too much. For the drow, for example, the threats of the outside world and often the lothite faith (if it is dominant) keep that type of savagery in check. Open warfare, or worse, civil war is completly unacceptable, as it will weaken the society too the point that it might be toppled from the outside.

And finally, respect is a major point. If you upset a house, it may need to make an example out of you, to not appear weak to the other families. So there is a great willingness for violence if you offend someone, that is only reigned in with your own survival instinct. But to avoid civil war of houses and their allies going against each other, if the offending party is clearly at fault, all will just bond together against it. That way, they can be certain the same protection is awarded their own house.

But this all mainly applies to drow, and those races that are similiar. Duergar are likely most like the drow in this regard, though there are stark differences. Svirfneblin with their more neutral and often good alignment, are quite different in many regards. Ilithids and Beholders are completly different. But what almost all share in common is that the survival ands strength of their own race is paramount, be it based on the survival instinct of the individual or a greater sense of community.

Take this all with a grain of salt, as there are many nuances I did not pay too much attention to. I just got up. :wink:

That was amazing, Pony; very well put despite your resting status!

Off-question: How does Lolthite society treat / handle the dead? They'll dump bodies unceremoniously into pits / the street depending on what went down, but do they respect proper burial or any veneration? Ancestor worship seems odd for a culture that feels all the weak need to be culled from the herd.

There are a lot of Necromancers in Lolthite society, too. If a slave died, would it be strange to turn them into a zombie and keep them going?

When Quenthel Baenre was killed by Drizzle, her body was recovered by the drow of Menzoberrazan and ceremoniously burned, which apparently is a burial custom awarded to high priestesses of the lothite faith in the city. It is likely that influential families and organizations make sure those of their number are buried in such a manner, so that commune to dead and raise dead spells can not be administered. It is too dangerous that important information could be extracted from corpses by those with the resources to do so.

So for priestesses it might be a matter of tradition and faith, so they may serve lolth in the abyss, while for other important figures it is more a matter of precaution.

For non-important members of the lothite societies, it likely depends on the city. It is possible that some are simply dumped in the mushroom groves to decompose next to the rothe dung piles as fertilizer. Others might be shipped off to the academy for anatomy and necromancy studies. There would certainly be some burial tradition / corpse disposal of one form or another, to ensure no plagues spread within the cities.

If a drow necromancer wanted a fresh body for his experiments, using a slave corpse would be completly acceptable. It would also be fully acceptable to buy a slave, and then just slit his throat, to animate him. The same way a affluent drow might just be inclined to pay a fair sum for slaves, to have proper practice targets when training with his crossbow. What is a different issue is just killing a slave not owned by you, as they may have an owner who stands above you in the food chain, and who might seek compensation for your disrespectful slight and destruction of property.

Animating the corpse of a dead influential person (like a priestess) would likely be a big no-no, as in this case it undermines the authority of the church, and hence the authority of the matron mothers and priestesses. Her humiliation could become a problem down the line for them, hence they will likely be careful not to allow such.

And I missed a question. I doubt that specific ancestor honoration is too big a deal. The legacy of significant deceased individuals of lothite society may be studied as a way of furthering your own abilities, but the present and future is what is important. Lothite society also does not care much about the individual. What matters is their contribution to the community. A highly skilled arcanist who holds no position of note, power or influence, because he does not know how to apply his brilliance or climb the ladder, is squandered talent. You are only as important the station, power and influence you wield, as well as what you can contribute to others who hold such stations.

That you were the child of the greatest matron mother who ever lived is only of note as long as she is alive. When she is gone, all that cloud falls away and the scary shadows move in, if they believe they can take you. Yet a house will certainly be proud of having had the last ten matron-mistresses of the arach tinilith be of it's line, as that would suggest great and continued favor from lolth. That is an intimidation factor for other houses, as if one house is favored, it might suggest they will be in future conflicts and plots you may be considering. The specific names of those matron-mistresses would be not too important though.

Debts of favors might also still play a role however, in regard to legacy of the deceased. Such debts are one of the most important pieces of currency in the drow world. If one house did the other a great favor, the debt may still remain. The debt also being subject to circumstance and reputation. If your house has the reputation of never being good on returning the favors you ask for, you will not be awarded favors when you need to ask for them. While those to the individual might end with their death, those between houses and organizations may remain, to a degree.

I've heard and read that drow are more like VIKINGS In that they raid, pillage and capture slaves to keep the party going.
Why produce something yourself when the svirfneblin next door got the jewels you need?

Drow have very fine artisans and skilled merchants. Ched Nassad's and Menzoberrazan's wiki entries (I checked the sources, none are 4th edition) show that the two more classical lothite cities have quite extensive trade. While pillaging and raiding is certainly a part of their culture, I doubt their economy depends on it to such a dominant degree.

Ched Nassad does have a lot of expeditions / raids to uncover lost netherse artifacts in a phaerimm territory, though that strikes me as treasure hunting and not viking like raiding. Maerimydra (another fallen drow city) had trade agreements with the duergar, to buy dwarven slaves from them.

Quote:

Ched Nasad produced a great variety of items. These included body dyes, pottery (from calcified webs), everdark ink (from deep dragon scales), fine armor and weapons, giant solifugids (used as guardians), molds (brown, chromatic, death, deep, gray, russet, sonic, and yellow), poisons, potions, riding lizards, rothe wool, meat, cheese, spells, textiles, and water.

Netherese artifacts made up a significant part of Ched Nasad's fortune. Regular expeditions into the phaerimm lands (known as the Buried Realms) produced valuable treasure, even though more than half of all expedition parties never returned.

Foreign traders in Ched Nasad included duergar, trogs, and kuo-toa. Merchants sold mushrooms, jewelry, potions, chitines, and slugs, among other items Several trading guilds operated in Ched Nasad, including the White Spider Company, Fellowship of the Seventh Scepter, Company of the Flickering Flame, and the Dragon's Hoard (destroyed in 1361 DR). The Council did not allow lesser nobles to invest in a single company, instead pressuring them to invest in multiple companies.

Before its destruction, Ched Nasad provided fully half of Menzoberranzan's goods. Other trading partners included Gracklstugh, Ch'Chitl, and Eryndlyn, Gualidurth, and Underspires.

Quote:

The city exported poisons, mushrooms, riding lizards, spell scrolls, wine, and water (clean water could be hard to come by in the Underdark). Other goods included body dyes, chains, everdark ink from deep dragon scales, giant slugs, herbal medicines, kayaks, musical instruments (flutes, drums), obsidian carvings (often used for sacrifices), perfumes, spells, spiced sausages, stone sculptures, surgical services, textiles, tortoiseshell goods, and ulaver wine.

The city imported produce (surface and Underdark), shellfish, slaves, and textiles. The Bazaar is a permanent market located in Duthcloim. Nearly anything could be bought here, for a price. It was also the location of many unlicensed and illicit activities.

The neighboring drow city of Ched Nasad provided fully half of Menzoberranzan's goods.

Various currencies were accepted in Menzoberranzan. Coins came in many shapes, including round, square, triangular, ring-, and spider-shaped coins. The greatest dozen houses in Menzoberrzan minted the coins. For example, House Baenre minted their own coins with the Baenre emblem, which were accepted throughout the city.

Eh, Viking raids originated as treasure hunts and shifted purpose to homesteading and expansion later in the civilization's evolution.

Every Drow bastion tends to operate differently, but along with every description I have ever read of a Drow-held location, they tend to keep morale high through celebrations, acquisition of 'exotic' surface fruits and meats for feasts, parades involving lavish displays of wealth, and pit combat against 'lesser creatures' to solidify themselves as the 'superior' race. Given the consistency of players' desires to go on raids, and the heavy maritime leaning of Nec'perya, Vikings would be a good way to look at it for the town for the time being.

The post was more focused to reply to the idea that drow-viking pillaging would be the dominant source of income in general for lothite socities, which I do not think is an accurate portrayl. And yeah, morale is usually kept high through a variety of pastimes. Most of them are decadent, cruel or hedonistic. The culture of drow often reminds me of a truly decadent and hedonistic version of Rome.

Drow cities often have theathres in which plays, poetry and music is performed. Manors located on neutral ground (as not to compromise your own house security) are rented by houses to throw wild parties, in which wealth and power are shown off, gossip is spread, plots are formed, wizards perform spells for entertainment, drugs are consumated, and the wild dancing often turns into orgies. There are taverns weapons are not allowed, so the patrons can expect a good brawl, without the danger of the violence escalating too much. Both massage houses where you can relax and hear the latest gossip, and bath houses where you can soak in warm scented oil or water are greatly favored. Gladitorial pits for drow and slaves alike are often right within the big taverns. Art shows by local artists (mostly sculptures, as paintings are not greatly favored) often attract members of the high society.

There are even days in Menzoberrazan during which it is strictly forbidden to act against another house, to allow security to be reduced and wild partying to spread throughout the city. If I recall correctly, that applies to the gradutuation ceremony of the academies. But there are other large festivials, like the one honoring the founding of the city and in honor of great victories.

But you are right, right now it Nec'perya does not have such an established high culture and is very raid and maritime focused.

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