AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

Yes, Master Scout is worth it. Or, 'can' be worth it, depending on how you use it.

Some quick examples:

19 Rogue/6 Fighter/5 Master Scout
10 Rogue/10 Ranger or Fighter/10 Shadowdancer (the PGy version is 16 Rogue/8 Fighter/6 SD)
21 Ranger/4 Fighter/5 Master Scout

Don't bother mixing Master Scout and SD together, it's not worth it.

So... one of those 10/10/10 has Epic Dodge too.... or am I wrong?

What is PGy?

The rogue version of 10/10/10 gets epic dodge, as does the cheesey 16/8/6. 19r/6f/5MS also gets it I think. PGy is powergamey/cheesy.

I think they key is to take MS in epic, because they give you bonus Great Dex feats. Which is pretty neat. 40 dex buffed is sexy.

The only one there without Epic Dodge is the 21 Ranger build. It's better as a STR build anyway, though it's decent enough as DEX too.

Why is 16/8/6 Powergamey or cheesy? Just curious. Is it because of stopping at HiPS? 6 Levels is still an investnment. Way better than the 1 it is in BIO form.

I like the build personally, but 6 SD for the HiPS and putting the rest into more offensively capable is a bit cheesey and won't help you win friends at the SD academy. Not that they'll hate you for it... Probably?

They're both good builds, but I wouldn't bother going SD10 unless you're hoping to request special powers once the scripting block lifts (if that ever happens) or just want to hang with the academy kids. 16/8/6 is a lot more punchy.

DerkDerkistan wrote:

lilmarcat wrote:

Spellcraft is +1 saves vs spells every 5 spellcraft, including feats and items. The cap may be at +20 (100 spellcraft), or it may be uncapped, I cant remember.

The cap is +20 and is overridden by an saves on gear. For instance, if you have 100 Spellcraft for the +20 bonus and have a +4 fort cloak, you're only benefiting +16 from Spellcraft.

So....any Universal Save becomes a negative? Wat? I' really want to understand how Spellcraft works in relation to Saves and the +20 cap. Someone help meeee!

No, it just doesn't go past the +20 cap is all. Both saves and spellcraft add to that +20 cap, so extra spellcraft (after +20 saves) doesn't provide anything aside identifying spells.

Rigela wrote:

No, it just doesn't go past the +20 cap is all. Both saves and spellcraft add to that +20 cap, so extra spellcraft (after +20 saves) doesn't provide anything aside identifying spells.

Okay, that's what I thought. I was just frightened that Universal Saves on gear would somehow nullify the saves from spellcraft.

Serbiris wrote:

Quote:

The rogue version of 10/10/10 gets epic dodge, as does the cheesey 16/8/6. 19r/6f/5MS also gets it I think. PGy is powergamey/cheesy.

I think they key is to take MS in epic, because they give you bonus Great Dex feats. Which is pretty neat. 40 dex buffed is sexy.

Ok... assuming 40 dex maxed out and +4 weapons.... what kind of AB should I expect from 19r/6f/5MS? I get 44 with one handed weapon. Did I do something wrong?

Also... I know this is a -very- ambiguous question, but.... what is the range considered "good" for attack bonus? I've heard 44 is the absolute lowest that is useful, but.... in practical usage, I've seen lower work also.

Thanks for your input.

44 is fine. 21 (BAB) + 15 (Mod) + 4 (Focuses + Prowess) + 4 (Enhancement). It'd be 46 in a nature area.

You can get away with much less than that in PvM anyway.

I was thinking of making some sort of support character that'll be a Salandran cleric. It took me some time to figure this out, I just hope I didn't make any mistakes as I had to calculate everything with help of examples and the wiki / information in the sidebar. Is this at all viable or at least something that is helpful to anyone in my party and myself?

23 Cleric / 5 Knight Commander / 2 Bard
Deity: Salandra
Alignment: Neutral Good
Domains:

-Protection
Concealment, 20% + cleric levels (43% at build end)
Special Ability: Divine protection - The cleric is able to cast an improved form of sanctuary

Spells: 1 - Shield, 4 - Minor Globe of Invulnerability, 5 - Energy Buffer, 7 - Protection from Spells

-Renewal (I might rethink this one at least)
Resist all Elemental Damage, 2% + 1% for every 5 cleric levels, capped at 10% (6% at build end)
Special Ability: Rapid Regrowth - The cleric gains a bonus to regeneration equal to 2 + 1 per 5 cleric levels. The effect lasts for 5 rounds + the cleric's charisma modifier.

Spells: 1 - Lesser Restoration, 3 - Restoration, 6 - Greater Restoration

Stats:
Str - 14
Dex - 10
Con - 12
Wis - 16 (20)
Int - 10
Cha - 14 (18)

Level-(Class)-Feats-[Skills]-(Stats)
----------------------------------------
01:Cleric(01):Toughness, Skill Focus: Discipline [Persuade 4]
02:Cleric(02):[Lore 4]
03:Cleric(03):Weapon Focus: Morningstar
04:Cleric(04):(+1 WIS)
05:Cleric(05):
06:Cleric(06):Combat Casting
07:Cleric(07):
08:Bard (01):[Taunt 4, Discipline 8](+1 WIS)
09:Knight(01):Extend Spell
10:Knight(02):
11:Knight(03):
12:Knight(04):(+1 WIS)
13:Knight(05):Maximize Spell
14:Cleric(08):
15:Cleric(09):[Spellcraft 15]
16:Cleric(10):Improved Combat Casting(+1 WIS)
17:Cleric(11):
18:Cleric(12):
19:Cleric(13):Improved Critical: Morningstar
20:Cleric(14):(+1 CHA)
21:Cleric(15):
22:Cleric(16):(+1 CHA) Great Charisma
23:Cleric(17):
24:Cleric(18):(+1 CHA)
25:Cleric(19):Epic weapon Focus: Morningstar
26:Cleric(20):
27:Cleric(21):
28:Cleric(22):Epic Spell: Mummy Dust [Tumble 30] (+1 CHA)
29:Cleric(23):
30: Bard(02):Armor Skin [Heal 3]

Final Skills:
---------------
Spellcraft 15
Lore 4
Discipline 8
Taunt 4
Persuade 4
Heal 3
Tumble 30

EDIT: I probably can't get Max and Extend Spell at Knight Commander levels. To be honest, I have no idea what this build absolutely needs in terms of feats.

You have your feats at some wrong levels there... you gain a feat every three levels, so it's 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18.

No, you can't take Maximise Spell/Extend Spell in your Knight Commander levels.

You have 18 Charisma, so you should take Divine Shield. Also, Combat Casting isn't really good, and Improved Combat Casting is an epic feat.

I'd recommend you drop 2 points in CON and put them into INT instead. I'd also drop 2 points in DEX and put them into INT as well, but that's your call. Don't take your Bard until epic as it'll ruin your BAB and you won't get four attacks per round.

Pre-epic, go 16 Cleric/4 Knight Commander. You'll have to cross-class Taunt and Discipline, but it's worth it. Also, you may as well go 24 Cleric/5 Knight Commander/1 Bard. 2 Bard doesn't give anything here.

My suggestion pre-epic feats (in no particular order): Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Toughness, Skill Focus: Discipline, Power Attack, Divine Shield, Extend Spell, Maximise Spell. No Blind-Fight, but that's manageable on a cleric since they can cast Invisibility Purge.

You gain a bonus epic feat at level 23 cleric, so shift Bard to level 29 and Cleric to level 30, and take both Armor Skin and Epic Spell Focus: Greater Ruin there.

He should take blind-fight on an epic feat then.

It's one of those "Must have" feats.

Its status as a 'Must-have' on a Cleric is debatable, though that's the only exception I'd make. I'd rather leave it to personal preference.

Depends on if it's a melee cleric or not, really. But if you plan to fight, it's pretty useful.

Last edited by rolt0 on Sun, Jun 15 2014, 1:43 AM, edited 6 times in total.

PaladinOfSune wrote:

You have your feats at some wrong levels there... you gain a feat every three levels, so it's 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18.

No, you can't take Maximise Spell/Extend Spell in your Knight Commander levels.

You have 18 Charisma, so you should take Divine Shield. Also, Combat Casting isn't really good, and Improved Combat Casting is an epic feat.

I'd recommend you drop 2 points in CON and put them into INT instead. I'd also drop 2 points in DEX and put them into INT as well, but that's your call. Don't take your Bard until epic as it'll ruin your BAB and you won't get four attacks per round.

Pre-epic, go 16 Cleric/4 Knight Commander. You'll have to cross-class Taunt and Discipline, but it's worth it. Also, you may as well go 24 Cleric/5 Knight Commander/1 Bard. 2 Bard doesn't give anything here.

My suggestion pre-epic feats (in no particular order): Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Toughness, Skill Focus: Discipline, Power Attack, Divine Shield, Extend Spell, Maximise Spell. No Blind-Fight, but that's manageable on a cleric since they can cast Invisibility Purge.

You gain a bonus epic feat at level 23 cleric, so shift Bard to level 29 and Cleric to level 30, and take both Armor Skin and Epic Spell Focus: Greater Ruin there.

I took your advice and applied it accordingly. Thanks to Uberuce I edited most of it.
I just need to figure out where and when to use skill points for the cross-class skill dump.
But I'll figure that out during leveling.

S 14
D 8
C 10
W 16 (24)
I 14
C 14

----------------------------------------
01:Cleric(01):Toughness, Skill Focus: Discipline
02:Cleric(02):
03:Cleric(03):Power Attack
04:Cleric(04):(+1 WIS)
05:Cleric(05):
06:Cleric(06):Divine Shield
07:Cleric(07):
08:Cleric(08):(+1 WIS)
09:Cleric(09):Extend Spell
10:Cleric(10):
11:Cleric(11):
12:Cleric(12):(+1 WIS) Divine Might
13:Cleric(13):
14:Cleric(14):
15:Cleric(15):Maximize Spell
16:Cleric(16):(+1 WIS)
17:Knight(01):
18:Knight(02):Skill focus:Heal
19:Knight(03):
20:Knight(04):(+1 WIS)
21:Knight(05):(+1 WIS) Great Wisdom
22:Cleric(17):
23:Cleric(18):
24:Cleric(19):(+1 WIS) Armorskin
25:Cleric(20):
26:Cleric(21):
27:Cleric(22):Epic Skill focus:Heal
28:Cleric(23):(+1 WIS) Epic spell: mummy dust
29:Bard (01):
30:Cleric(24):Epic spell: greater ruin

Skill Points:

Pre-20
Cleric 16x2=32 IntMod 16x2= 32
Knight 4 x2= 8 Intmod 4x2= 8

Total:80

Epic
Knight 1 x2= 2 Intmod 1 x2= 2
Cleric 8 x2= 16 Intmod 8 x2= 16
Bard 1 x4= 4 Intmod 4 x2= 8

Total:44

Divine Might will do much more damage than Improved Criticals on any weapon, but especially on a morningstar.

Can't take the EMD until you've got 21 Cleric levels, if the wikia is correct. Armourskin can usefully go at 24, and I'd delay Greater Ruin till 30 so I at least get two levels with the EMD.

Uberuce wrote:

Divine Might will do much more damage than Improved Criticals on any weapon, but especially on a morningstar.

Can't take the EMD until you've got 21 Cleric levels, if the wikia is correct. Armourskin can usefully go at 24, and I'd delay Greater Ruin till 30 so I at least get two levels with the EMD.

I edited it. How about that?

Just noticed on NWNwiki that Divine Might needs Power Attack.. It's hard to squeeze that in there. Might need to sacrifice Max. Spell or Extend Spell.

rolt0 wrote:

Just noticed on NWNwiki that Divine Might needs Power Attack.. It's hard to squeeze that in there. Might need to sacrifice Max. Spell or Extend Spell.

Don't you have it already, at level 18?

I think the build looks alright, though I'm not sure I get the "Salandran support" vibe that you were going for. A Templar is not necessarily a healer (or much of a support), though, so that would work just fine. They're the muscle whom the Battle Surgeons support.

IronAngel wrote:

rolt0 wrote:

Just noticed on NWNwiki that Divine Might needs Power Attack.. It's hard to squeeze that in there. Might need to sacrifice Max. Spell or Extend Spell.

Don't you have it already, at level 18?

I think the build looks alright, though I'm not sure I get the "Salandran support" vibe that you were going for. A Templar is not necessarily a healer (or much of a support), though, so that would work just fine. They're the muscle whom the Battle Surgeons support.

I completely overlooked that I had Power Attack in there. However, I would still need Power Attack before I get Divine Might. With Knight Commander I can't get Max. or Extend Spell feats when I shift them around accordingly. That will mean that the 21 skill will become another unknown for me to fill and that I loose either Max or Extend.

I hope you see what I'm seeing.

I'm fine with him/her being a Templar of sorts. The ability to heal and such will all be there.

There's no need for you to rush that Weapon Focus though, is there? Grab Power Attack at 3 and Weapon Focus at 18.

I had a very similar build in mind for a character, Rolto, however instead of Divine Might, Power Attack and EWF and instead go with Spell Foci, Greater spell Foci and Epic Spell Foci in the summon you want to use. I found that playing a support role it's hard to juggle all of the roles you seem to be including in that build. You want good AB hence the EWF, you want an EMD and GR to deal damage, but EMD without epic spell foci will mean you'll need to rest more often, you want tanky feats as well and not to mention KC had demanding pre-reqs (coming from a person who fell in love with the PrC).

Before changing your build further, maybe assess what role you want your Salandran to be. Salandra has a varied few domains that I can see filling a spellsword, tank or support role so I'd pick one of those and try not to go OTT with trying to pick more than one. 24 Cleric is just an awkward build to use.

I've never had problems with Cleric 24, to be honest. You will be a buffer and a versatile DPS/tank/summoner with heals. Your offensive casting sucks because of low Wisdom, though. But yeah, I agree that specializing in something is more optimal.

Still, I would not worry about the epic spell focus to extend EMD. It's still 24 turns (minutes), and that's exactly as long as many of your buffs for it will last, too. So even if you double the duration into hours, it's going to run unbuffed that extra time. In a party, you're going to need to renew your buddies' buffs even if the summon would survive, anyway.

It might be nitpicking, but I'm still trying to grasp a healer type with only 3 skill points in heal... but 30 in tumble.

Well, he never said it would be a "healer." Though Salandra is the patron of natural medicine first and foremost, discouraging healing magic if there is a natural solution, so it does seem a worthwhile investment if you can fit it in. In my experience, if you try to optimize your build at the expense of some fitting RP skill or feat, you usually regret it later when the grind is over. But whatever floats your boat.

You could just drop the combat stuff, go for a beefy defensive battle surgeon and focus on healing. The level split could be the same, but you'd drop the Charisma and melee feats, pick up Epic Skill Focus in Heal and the Healing domain. It really depends on what you want to do in a party.

@Iron: I understand what you mean. I just didn't want to be completely mediocre when it came to offensive (melee) capabilities. So I might rethink some of the feats for the sake of RP. I got something 'stable' together thanks to all you lovely folk, so mix-matching will be easier.

@Casvenx: I'm unsure how much skill points I'll have over to put in heal. That calculation was before I put more in INT, so perhaps I'll have more left over to put in.

@Kamina: If I take the advice from all of you in terms of RP, I think I should focus more on the Heal skill rather than extend the time of the summon. Resting once in a while isn't a hindrance to me really.

I could go for the Healing domain, so my heals will become empowered. Maybe WF and/or EWF could be replaced with some skill focuses in heal for RP purposes, should I ever need to roll a die in healing. What feat would boost GR by the way, should I decide to boost the damage of it - I can't find a specific 'school' it's supposed to fall under.

*Edited the build above: I focused more on Wis and took more skill focus in Heal too. I'm going for the Healing and Balance domain. I'm sure this is more beefy spell-wise.

My Dex-build fighter is currently at level 25, and I'm trying to choose her last two epic feats. She's Fighter 16/Rogue 2/Weapon Master 7 at the moment.

Currently, her epic levels were like this:

21 (Fighter 12) - Great Dexterity I/Epic Weapon Focus (Rapier)
22 (Fighter 13)
23 (Fighter 14) - Epic Weapon Specialization (Rapier)
24 (Fighter 15) - Great Dexterity II
25 (Fighter 16) - Armor Skin

Then for the next few levels, this is what I have planned:

26 (Fighter 17)
27 (Fighter 18) - Great Dexterity III/Epic Prowess
28 (Fighter 19)
29 (Fighter 20) -
30 (Rogue 3) -

Her stats are as follows:

Air Genasi

Str 12
Dex 26 (28 when maxed)
Con 12
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 8

What epic feats would be best for levels 29 and 30? I'm thinking maybe Epic Will and Epic Fortitude, or maybe Epic Will and Epic Skill Focus (Discipline). Or I could go the RP route and just get Skill Focus and Epic Skill Focus in Craft Weapon.

No rush though, she's pretty much just RPing and grinding gnolls for gold at the moment, so it's not like I'm going to hit 29 anytime soon.

--- --- --- --- ---

I'm also curious as to how viable a Fighter/Cleric(/possible third class?) would be to imitate the Favored Soul class; or Monk/Fighter/Cleric for deities with unarmed as their favored weapon.

Your feat at level 29, being a fighter bonus, will be limited to the following: armor skin, devastating critical, epic damage reduction, epic prowess, epic toughness, epic weapon focus, epic weapon specialization, improved stunning fist, improved whirlwind attack, overwhelming critical, superior initiative.

Regarding the other feats you mentioned, I would personally go with Epic Fortitude or Discipline, leaning toward Fortitude. Epic Will is largely useless.

For some reason at Cleric level 23 in my build and can't choose Mummy Dust, my only choice seemed to be Great Wisdom II. I did have the required spellcraft. Actually, the build seems pretty neat.

Is there a problem or is it changed on Amia how you progress in epic levels?

You also need 20 or higher in your primary casting stat (20 WIS for cleric/durid, 20 INT for wiz, 20 CHA for bard/sorcerer).

Mummy Dust isn't an epic cleric bonus feat.

EDIT: Scrap this! Svensk was a doll and helped me on Skype.

Is this totally nuts to try?

24 cleric
5 Master Scout
1 Monk

Stats:
STR 15 (3+4 epics)=22
DEX 12
CON 10
INT 12
WIS 14 (+4, yes, only lvl 8 spells)
CHA 14

Feats:

Martial
Extend Spell
Weap Focus
Improv Crit
Power Attack
Divine Might
Divine Shield
Toughness

Epic Feats:
4 Great Strengths
Armor Skin
Epic Prowess
Epic Weapon Focus

AB would be 44 (46 outside) +Divine Favor, Divine Power=53(55)
AC would be about 53-55 + haste

Probably Mielikki with Plant and Travel domains.

I'm thinking scimitar for the weapon.

Any thoughts?

Don't do it.

Lol.... any idea why?

Permafreedom(the hs premier feat) is a cleric spell
You are lacking maximize spell.
You do not have blind fight.
You do not have skill focus:spot (required for hs)
You do not have skill focus:discipline (required for hs)
You do not have 20 wisdom = you do not have epic spells.
You do not have level 9 spells.
You have marital weapon proficiency on an already feat-starved build

You need to maximize CHA, STR , and WIS(doable, but hard) plus CON and get high saves. Even for a cleric it's to much.

And for a cleric, that AB is ... Meh..

Ok.. forgot the MS feats....

Epic spells, I knew that.... wasn't really too concerned honestly.

AB... what kind of AB should a cleric get?

55+ battletide and prayer=58 on that build.... I would think that's pretty good?

I should have elaborated: The AB is 'Meh' because it's simply to much. It's over the top

You do not need so much

Now that's not something I'd heard before.... What AB would you suggest is the "zone" to be in?

I have no idea what Svensk is going on about.

Either way, what exactly are you seeking to do with the build? Cleric/Master Scout doesn't honestly have much synergy together. What's the concept?

At this point.... nothing. I spoke with Uberuce and he told me a few things that made me rethink it. Shelved.

Was just curious what Svensk was saying.

There's an edge to how much Ab you actually need. The server is designed to scale around 45AB; 50 when battling bosses. And whilst really high AB is pretty much the Win of the game, getting -To much- is just detrimental to the cause, as in damaging your character.
58+d20= 58 - 78 AB. Nothing sans a Palemaster could dodge your attacks.

Im saying it's overkill.

I am wondering if there is a decent melee/ranger build out there? I don't expect to defeat fighters in melee nor do I expect do defeat an arcane archer in ranged but to be useful in both positions essentially. The build I've tried out so far is a ranger25/fighter4/rogue 1 with greatsword/longbow. The build was strength based but with 16 dex as well. the ab with the greatsword was 47 (49 with bane of enemies) and with the bow it was 42 (44 with banes of enemies). I am wondering if the ab is alright? and just as importantly if the damage is alright which should be 1d8 from the weapon, +2d6 from the arrows I know I can get, +7 with mighty and specialization and +2d6 when bane of enemies counts.

EDIT: I think I would rather have a melee character that can kill things at range than a ranged character that can kill things in melee, therefore the character is strength based

I have heard a lot of good from the dex version of 25/4/1 ranger, fighter, rogue. The 25ranger/5 master scout sounds fun, too

I'm thinking of a strength based Dwarven weapon master with crippling strike, dual-wielding handaxes. AC will suck but it sounds fun. How does this look?

13 Fighter / 7 WM / 10 Rogue

Pre-epic: Weapon Focus: Handaxe, Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Weapon Specialization, Ambidexterity, TWF, ITWF, Blindfight, Knockdown
Epic: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Crippling Strike, Epic Prowess, Great Strength I-III

My problem is there's no Improved knockdown, which could be fixed by going Human for the extra feat, but I'd much rather roleplay a Dwarf. Also no Armour Skin but the AC is gonna be terrible anyway. If I can max strength and get +4 weapons it would be 45AB when dual wielding. I'm not even sure if that's enough AB. Any advice?

I'm thinking of making a new character to play and level with in the quieter GMT times and was wondering how viable making a straight Sorcerer 20/ RDD 10 is?

I've played Bard/RDD before, and I do love it, but playing as a bard again (while great) is a tad repetitive. So is Sorc 20/ RDD 10 any good? Even with tensers and all that to go a bit melee at times? Or is it just hopeless at both melee and casting, with no epic spells?

Lionsbridge wrote:

I'm thinking of a strength based Dwarven weapon master with crippling strike, dual-wielding handaxes. AC will suck but it sounds fun. How does this look?

13 Fighter / 7 WM / 10 Rogue

Pre-epic: Weapon Focus: Handaxe, Dodge, Mobility, Expertise, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Weapon Specialization, Ambidexterity, TWF, ITWF, Blindfight, Knockdown
Epic: Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Crippling Strike, Epic Prowess, Great Strength I-III

My problem is there's no Improved knockdown, which could be fixed by going Human for the extra feat, but I'd much rather roleplay a Dwarf. Also no Armour Skin but the AC is gonna be terrible anyway. If I can max strength and get +4 weapons it would be 45AB when dual wielding. I'm not even sure if that's enough AB. Any advice?

You could drop a couple of levels from Rogue and add to fighter. you wont be featstarved.

W1shM4k3r wrote:

Lionsbridge wrote:

I'm thinking of a strength based Dwarven weapon master with crippling strike, dual-wielding handaxes. AC will suck but it sounds fun. How does this look?

13 Fighter / 7 WM / 10 Rogue

. . .

You could drop a couple of levels from Rogue and add to fighter. you wont be featstarved.

But crippling strike is 60% of the fun!

The_Blue_Wizard17 wrote:

I'm thinking of making a new character to play and level with in the quieter GMT times and was wondering how viable making a straight Sorcerer 20/ RDD 10 is?

I've played Bard/RDD before, and I do love it, but playing as a bard again (while great) is a tad repetitive. So is Sorc 20/ RDD 10 any good? Even with tensers and all that to go a bit melee at times? Or is it just hopeless at both melee and casting, with no epic spells?

Maybe consider a tumbledrop class in there somewhere? Also I don't have much experience with either of the classes but I got a feeling you would do better with more rdd classes since after a certain level there isn't so many spells that are useful for spellsword like builds, and there shouldn't be much point in the offensive spells since you aren't focusing on them. But then again I don't know much about tensers, but unless you can get 45-ish ab you may not be of much use. I also figured the build won't be exceptional at neither fighting nor spellcasting so it would be more or less a rp build? so as long as you do decent as a melee character in PvE then more rdd classes may also be cooler.

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