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I have been toying with the idea of making a divine caster that steals their ability to cast divine spells, rather than being granted the ability by a deity, demon, or celestial. There's an old prestige class called "Ur Priest" that does that, and I've been thinking of creating an Amian translation of it.

... But first...

If I make a cleric character, and claim to have stolen the ability to cast divine spells rather than being granted the ability, will my character eventually be fallen, or is that legit? Or is this a special request character? HALP!

You will have to make a request to play such a character.

wowzers, fast reply. thanks!

Oh my god, yes please. I love Ur Priests. IF YOU WANT HELP WITH YOUR REQUEST LET ME KNOW.

Heh, can't help but hope you understand to keep this secretive. If it ever got out, pretty much every religious soul in the world would treat you as a man might a leech he found suckling his leg in a swamp.

Don't think it'd even be "murder" if a paladin outright killed you, as you're literally wasting the godstuff of his patron, which is literally the souls of believers who've merged with the god itself.

lol, well, that's certainly a funny perspective, since other deities besides those that have paladins, like Lolth, Orcus, Gruumsh, Grazzt, Ghanadaur, Bahgtru, Beshaba, Cyric, Kiaransalee, Malar, Queen of Air and Darkness, Selvetarm, Talona, Talos, Umberlee, Urdlen, and Vhaeraun, will have followers that see my character in a negative light as well.... and see murder in a positive light simultaneously. I sincerely doubt paladins are going to be my Ur Priest's main enemy. They have other things to worry about....

But there are plenty of people that play characters that cast magic in an offensive manner that don't keep any secrets, so I don't see any reason to hope my character keeps his magical origins a secret or not.

An interesting clue of how I will role-play an Ur Priest, should I actually role-play one, is that a high bluff skill is a pre-requisite for the prestige class.

MightNMagic wrote:

If it ever got out, pretty much every religious soul in the world would treat you as a man might a leech he found suckling his leg in a swamp.

Not really.

Dead wrote:

MightNMagic wrote:

If it ever got out, pretty much every religious soul in the world would treat you as a man might a leech he found suckling his leg in a swamp.

Not really.

He wrote "man" not "thing" :p
I know nothing of Ur Priests but will read up on it in case they need to be ushered towards the end

good luck with the request!

joe15552 wrote:

lol, well, that's certainly a funny perspective, since other deities besides those that have paladins, like Lolth, Orcus, Gruumsh, Grazzt, Ghanadaur, Bahgtru, Beshaba, Cyric, Kiaransalee, Malar, Queen of Air and Darkness, Selvetarm, Talona, Talos, Umberlee, Urdlen, and Vhaeraun, will have followers that see my character in a negative light as well.... and see murder in a positive light simultaneously. I sincerely doubt paladins are going to be my Ur Priest's main enemy. They have other things to worry about....

But there are plenty of people that play characters that cast magic in an offensive manner that don't keep any secrets, so I don't see any reason to hope my character keeps his magical origins a secret or not.

An interesting clue of how I will role-play an Ur Priest, should I actually role-play one, is that a high bluff skill is a pre-requisite for the prestige class.

As I sit here reading the write-up of Ur Priest, it literally says they steal their spells from deities. A deity is a being that is literally made up of the souls of believers that have merged to form it (a very lengthy and extremely taxing process). A spell bestowed by a god is literally a portion of that. Some believer willingly allows themself to possibly be expended for the god's agenda and glory.

A Ur Priest literally /steals/ that and is wasting a lot of work and sacrifice some believer gave all for. No god of any ethos would stand for that. A Ur Priest literally commits an act /worse/ than murdering their faithful with each theft of divine stuff.

A known Ur Priest would be a pariah, especially in the Realms. Short of an anti-deity culture, they'd find no protection by any law. Indeed, most governing bodies are largely influenced, if not run by religion and would gladly allow witchhunters and clergy to string a Ur Priest up with much aplomb and pomp.

There's good reason why the words "cunning, ""stealthy," and "loners" are used in the write-up. A Ur Priest who isn't these things is a marked man and foolish idiot soon to need a headstone.

The champion of a foe to the paladin's god merely kills a true believer the god wants to protect, but ultimately will claim in death. A Ur Priest selfishly wastes something never reclaimable and diminishes the god directly.

MightNMagic wrote:

souls/stealing

I don't know where you get the idea that deities are made up of souls, they are outsiders. Frequently at one time mortals. They get their power from active worship, not souls. Souls go the deity's plane upon death and are used in whatever way the plane dictates.

They are stealing pennies. Greater gods have millions of worshipers, intermediate hundreds of thousands, lesser and demi hundreds to thousands, they aren't going to notice 10 to 30 spells that go missing once a day. If that ur priest for whatever reason is stealing from a single source, that is. Otherwise it is one or two spells a day.

MightNMagic wrote:

other stuff

Doesn't really matter. Evil is a requirement of the class. They would be treated according to that more than anything else as the only indication another PC would have of them being an ur priest would be their lack of domain and spontaneous cure/inflict spells.

joe15552 wrote:

An interesting clue of how I will role-play an Ur Priest, should I actually role-play one, is that a high bluff skill is a pre-requisite for the prestige class.

Don't bother with high bluff, it is a pc to npc skill and doesn't do anything on the module. Lying goes in tandem with evil and there is little reason to tell anyone about how you get your spells unless you feel like jerking your ego off.

Quote:

I don't know where you get the idea that deities are made up of souls

Asmodeus wields his power entirely from the magic of souls. He harvests divine energy from the souls of the damned through torture and suffering, and then uses it to empower, equip, build, and expand his Hell. It's part of the Pact Primeval, when he tricked the Gods into allowing him purview over all the damned souls, and the ability to harvest energy from them to "continue his work in a self-sufficient, independent manner" (So the Gods wouldn't have to be reviled at his presence, of course!). Little did they know that Asmodeus also intended on -drawing- people to hell specifically so that he could harvest this power.

"You're supposed to be watching over the damned, not encouraged the innocent to sin!"
"Read the fine print."

Also, humorously enough, on.. hrm.. I can't remember the layer of Hell, but all aspiring LE deities house themselves on what is appropriately known "God Street" inside Asmodeus' hell. (Nor is it the first god that has its domain inside the Hells. Kurtulmak and Tiamat both house themselves on Avernus, the first layer!)

Souls are intimately tied to a deity's power. Not just in the hells, either. My understanding of it wasn't -solely- that they received power from living worshipers, but that they also received power from the deceased souls that found refuge in their realm. It's how the LE deities on God Street grow their domains, and from their grown domains, this is how they wield more power. It's something akin to a cycle.

In Faerun, there is significant power tied to the soul. Devils use it, Demons steal it, living practioners of the Art conduct Incarnum Magic, and deities use the energies of their worshiper's souls to empower their own magic (Which in turn is then provided back to the living worshipers to convince more worshipers that the deity is in fact real)

Talking about generic dnd lore (which Book of Vile Darkness, and Fiendish Codex 2 are) when Amia is a Forgotten Realms server doesn't really prove anything. Souls don't matter, the number and power of the worshipers do. That's how it has always been. Fiends use souls to make things and fuel their powers, yes, because they do not have divine ranks. Gods, however, do not need souls and do not expend the souls of their worshipers in granting spells.

The deities of Toril take an active interest in their world, channeling power through their clerics, druids, rangers, paladins, and other worshipers and sometimes intervening directly in the affairs of mortals. At the same time, they plot, war, intrigue, and ally among themselves, between themselves and powerful mortals, and with extraplanar beings such as elemental rulers and demons. In this they resemble their mortal worshipers, for to an extend deities are defined and shaped by their worshipers, their areas of interest, and their nature– for many deities are actually mortals who have gained the divine spark. Because they lose strength if their worship dwindles away and is forgotten, deities task their clerics and others to whom they grant divine spells with spreading their praise and doctrine, recruiting new worshipers, and keeping the faith alive. In exchange for this work and to facilitate it, deities grant divine spells.
–Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, p. 232

[Paraphrased]
Rank 0: Children of gods
Rank 1-5 (demi): 100-1000 worshipers.
Rank 6-10 (lesser): 1000-99,999 worshipers.
Rank 11-15 (intermediate): 100,000-999,999 worshipers.
Rank 16-20 (greater): 1,000,000+ worshipers.
Rank 21+: Ao, no worshipers needed.
–Faiths and Pantheons, p. 6

The powers of the Forgotten Realms setting are divided into different categories: greater, lesser, intermediate, and demipower. The ranking (and relative power) of a deity in the Realms is determined by the number and devotion of a power's followers. Without worship, powers wither, declining in deific rank and ability, and can even perish.
Exactly how much worship and how many followers it takes for powers to rise (or sink) within the ranks is unknown. It is evident that some sort of divine formula for the rating of deific ability has been enact by Ao, but he has never revealed it even to the powers themselves. The divine mechanisms for powers to rise and fall in rank operates smoothly and without anyone to control it. It accounts for the worship of followers devoted to only one deity and the more casual worship of the average inhabitant of the Realms of several or many powers.
–Faiths & Avatars (2nd Edition), p. 3

It can readily be seen that, down through the ages, the relative power of deities has always depended on the numbers and influence of their mortal worshipers in Faerun and that this is an ever-changing, not a static, thing.
–Powers and Pantheons (2nd Edition), p. 3

The "gods" of the Realms, also called Powers, are important beings; they grant magical spells to their worshipers, involve themselves in earthly dealings, and grow or diminish in personal power in relation to the number of mortal worshippers they possess. Clerics in the service of a god will advance only if they please the god, by remaining faithful to the god's rules and aims, and acting as the god wishes.
–Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (1st Edition), p. 10

Ziiiinngg!

Admittedly, I've done far more research into the fiendish and mortal side of soul magic than its relationship to deities (Because Asmodeus rules! :twisted:

) But I'm not the one to look in the face of citations and belabor a beaten point. I welcome corrections from people who are more interested in certain aspects of lore, and who have done the research.

Cerpin's right, but there's more to a god's power and interests than their divine rank/number of followers. These things are (supposed to be) somewhat obscure, but I find it implausible that past worshipers, now souls in the deity's realm, would be inconsequential. Even if they don't directly fuel divine points anymore, they can probably do stuff in the planes. Act as an army, build skyscrapers, empty the god's chamberpot, whatever.

But that's all beside the point, because even if souls were very important, there's still no lore saying divine spells somehow expend souls or soul-energy. In fact, I don't think there's any explicit lore on divine spells expending any sort of energy from the deity. So some people might consider an Ur-priest a nasty dude (while others would welcome him as a liberator from deific tyranny), but I'm aware of no FR lore which implies that he'd be doing any real damage.

An interesting take an an Ur-priest would be one that recreated the rituals of the faiths he stole from, temporarily taking on a new ritualistic personality. If you wanted to cast Sunburst, you'd act out the part of a cleric of Lathander, repeating the typical gestures and words, and in this sacred, ceremonial state manage to fool even the god. Not because you cheat so well, necessarily, but because you can step out of yourself and adopt the metaphysical model. The idea of just "siphoning energy" in a trance is kind of flavorless and does not explain much, IMO.

Frankly I'd considered pushing Gerald in the direction of an Ur Priest myself before his role play developed in a wizardly direction. i'd love to see a character who develops in that fashion.

MightNMagic wrote:

There's good reason why the words "cunning, ""stealthy," and "loners" are used in the write-up. A Ur Priest who isn't these things is a marked man and foolish idiot soon to need a headstone.

So, this has gone from advice to OOC manipulation of IC role-play pretty fast. Do it to me, and I just point a finger at you. Do it to a new player, and.... I get other people to point fingers at you.... mkay?

Well I can't vouch for his intentions or his tone but he's not wrong about one thing - a non-secretive Ur Priest is probably an idiot. People have in this thread made arguments Ur-Priests technically aren't stealing however I would contend that if not thievery it is at least cheating - clerics have to work, study and pray hard to gain their spells and keep their deity happy (or at least avoid making them unhappy, resulting in a Fall). A divine channeler to whom this rule doesn't apply is going to make members of a very powerful class very unhappy. And they may well accuse the PC of stealing souls/the god's depletable source of power (likely not knowing what is presented in this thread), and they would probably believe it themselves - no one but maybe the Ur-priests (who are described as often being godhaters anyway) could refute them. I doubt anyone would believe them. In any case Amians are notoriously trigger-happy when it comes to smiting deviants, especially with regards to divine matters.

Chances are the Ur-priest would have been warned by a friend early on to keep such powers secret, for their own good. Maybe they don't listen, kind of like those people who ride bicycles without helmets. But it really comes down to the individual, maybe they're some sort of antitheistic martyr or something, or Servant of the Fallen (I would like to see an Ur-priest of Leira).

IronAngel wrote:

In fact, I don't think there's any explicit lore on divine spells expending any sort of energy from the deity. ... but I'm aware of no FR lore which implies that he'd be doing any real damage.

The Complete Divine 3.5 description of Ur-priest (p70) seems to imply that they have to be careful, avoiding congregation or "stealing too much from one deity". It's not exactly FR lore but AFAIK it's the only place you'll find Ur-priests anyway (maybe there's an obscure older edition working of it, but I haven't found it).

As an aside, I find the "pact primeval" story annoying. The book is a little unclear but seems to imply that it's just a story that devils tell, so at least I don't have to take the damn thing as canon.

Well yeah, I don't doubt deities and their followers would get upset. I just wanted to point out the arguments MightNMagic based his view on weren't sound. The lack of proper deference is blasphemy enough, whether or not there's something to steal.

@ Hackums

"A notable feature of Dis is God Street, a place filled with buildings that are actually the godly realms of various lawful evil deities that have not earned enough worshippers to earn a realm on another layer of Baator or another plane entirely."

So it is on the second layer of Baator.

Ah yes, thank you Pony-man.

serbiris wrote:

The Complete Divine 3.5 description of Ur-priest (p70) seems to imply that they have to be careful, avoiding congregation or "stealing too much from one deity". It's not exactly FR lore but AFAIK it's the only place you'll find Ur-priests anyway (maybe there's an obscure older edition working of it, but I haven't found it).

I agree that an Ur-priest must be careful, and secretive and all that good stuff. Making a blanket statement that Ur-priests that go public are idiots is crossing the line for me into the sad realm of non-creativity. I can come up with plenty of reasons why an Ur-priest would go public.... of course, one would have to BECOME an Ur Priest first, in order to become a public Ur Priest. The path to becoming an Ur-priest is a secret path, and is largely "unknown," so it would make sense to not be running around the streets asking, "Hey guys, anyone know how to become an Ur Priest?"

I do not appreciate comments that imply if I role-play a certain way I am an idiot or a fool or anything like that. If my Ur Priest goes public, then I've probably come up with a good reason for him to do so. Can we just go ahead and operate under the assumption that I'm not an idiot?

I DO appreciate the discussion in this thread about the technical aspects of souls and divine power and such. Those are things that are helpful to me when trying to nail down the exact way my ur priest will tap-in to divine power. I love to be detailed in the ways my characters operate, and I like to have things follow a logical path with no "gaps", and defining the exact source of divine power in general is a great way to fill some possible gaps that I may find when trying to create the path to being an Ur Priest.

There's quite a difference between calling someone an idiot and saying someone's PC is an idiot, though. It's a valid position, although yeah one could argue that one could design an intelligent, open Ur-priest. But with Amia the way it is you're in for an uphill battle. In my opinion, it can work, but it's difficult, and difficulty can really mount up against one's will to maintain a character. Especially when it's so easy to alt off. But ideally you'd hash all of it out in the request, to ensure that the effort isn't wasted in building a well-rounded character.

I can say this, even a remote hint at stealing from gods will invite a smacking from all my devout chars thats for sure, I am not saying this the reaction of all peoples chars.

And while I like the idea of a Ur-priest, I will smite/shoot/hammer your butt if I find out icly

the devout nature of faerun, where gods are at the center of everyones life and ur-priest would probably be the least likely to be welcomed and accepted, or allowed to continue the stealing from gods, atleast that is my understanding of faerun.

You should also be aware that alot of the cities are heavily devouted to gods, winya (if it returns) kohlingen whafttown howness and barak runedar will likely ban you as soon as they find out (again this is my assumption) and while bendir cordor and such have traditionally been very openminded, I doubt you would find much friendlyness there even if you are accepted.. faith is HUGE in faerun, people know they will get stuck in a wall of torture if they dont follow a god, as such hostile to those that steal from thier gods... well it invites a smacking, even from followers of good gods.

you will likely find yourself alone in many aspects, but then again, i might be utterly wrong.

and again, that being said, I love the idea

Kraniumbrud wrote:

You should also be aware that alot of the cities are heavily devouted to gods, winya (if it returns) kohlingen whafttown howness and barak runedar will likely ban you as soon as they find out (again this is my assumption) and while bendir cordor and such have traditionally been very openminded, I doubt you would find much friendlyness there even if you are accepted.. faith is HUGE in faerun, people know they will get stuck in a wall of torture if they dont follow a god, as such hostile to those that steal from thier gods... well it invites a smacking, even from followers of good gods.

you will likely find yourself alone in many aspects, but then again, i might be utterly wrong.

and again, that being said, I love the idea

yeah, I'm aware of all those things, and I'm also aware of the fact that there are groups that would readily ACCEPT a known Ur Priest. it's really no different from playing any other character that choses an extreme alignment or path, like paladin, monk, druid, assassins... except that your character has to figure out where he belongs, and Ur Priests have a different place than all of those.

In a world where gods have monopolized divine magic, granting it only to obedient castrates on a leash, I can see many people and groups welcoming a liberator like that. Imagine the implications of offering divine magic to anyone with the personal ability to grasp it, without the need to subject oneself to the whims of church and deity. God is dead, and it is time for man to take his rightful place! Take the Eldreth Veluuthra for example - shunned by the Seldarine, they learned to harness druidic and ranger magic from nature itself with the aid of a lich.

It would be quite a leap of metagaming to go straight from "this unusual person has divine-like powers without apparent allegiance to any deity" to "this guy is stealing power from my god!"; even an educated academic probably would not go straight for that theory just by observing the facts. Given that there is both Realmslore precedent and especially since it's the standard on the planes and in other settings (connected to ours and well-documented in specialized libraries), my scholar would probably assume this person has learned to tap into the magic of faith through conviction and imagination alone, like the druids and clerics of Oerth or Sigil would do. It's not like the word "Ur-priest" is something any of our characters would have heard before.

I mean, which is more likely: this guy steals magic from the gods, something no one knew was possible and which does not have widely-known precedents; or, this guy channels divine powers through faith and devotion, which is generally not possible in our world but which we know, from being avid planewalkers, is almost standard in the multiverse outside our small plane? Your PCs can react however they will, but it's not as if this issue is as much of a no-brainer as you make it out to be.

Quote:

It would be quite a leap of metagaming to go straight from "this unusual person has divine-like powers without apparent allegiance to any deity" to "this guy is stealing power from my god!"; even an educated academic probably would not go straight for that theory just by observing the facts. Given that there is both Realmslore precedent and especially since it's the standard on the planes and in other settings (connected to ours and well-documented in specialized libraries), my scholar would probably assume this person has learned to tap into the magic of faith through conviction and imagination alone, like the druids and clerics of Oerth or Sigil would do. It's not like the word "Ur-priest" is something any of our characters would have heard before.

There may well have been a plot or an ur priest before on Amia and if either happened then yes, characters who were involved before will know about it and might recognize or suspect the character for what he/ she is if he is too public or brazen.

It's metagaming to claim knowledge your character may not have but it's no better to claim another does not have knowledge ic which that character does have.

That may be ; the people involved would know whether their characters have the relevant information or not. If they do, they might or might not connect the dots. My point still stands, though: we should be careful not to jump to conclusions IC before we consider what our characters are actually likely to believe. Even if my character knew about Ur-priests, there are still many viable alternatives to consider. The evidence of a person casting what look like divine spells with no obvious deity affiliation is not a whole lot to go on, and it's nearly impossible to discern for certain how Ur-priest magic works exactly.

Agreed, thats why I said might suspect or recognize. But it is a point for an ur priest who wants to be very public to consider.
It would bring an increased risk of people sooner or later finding out and that would have a tremendous impact on the toon.

IronAngel wrote:

In a world where gods have monopolized divine magic, granting it only to obedient castrates on a leash, I can see many people and groups welcoming a liberator like that. Imagine the implications of offering divine magic to anyone with the personal ability to grasp it, without the need to subject oneself to the whims of church and deity. God is dead, and it is time for man to take his rightful place! Take the Eldreth Veluuthra for example - shunned by the Seldarine, they learned to harness druidic and ranger magic from nature itself with the aid of a lich.

would be quite a leap of metagaming to go straight from "this unusual person has divine-like powers without apparent allegiance to any deity" to "this guy is stealing power from my god!"; even an educated academic probably would not go straight for that theory just by observing the facts. Given that there is both Realmslore precedent and especially since it's the standard on the planes and in other settings (connected to ours and well-documented in specialized libraries), my scholar would probably assume this person has learned to tap into the magic of faith through conviction and imagination alone, like the druids and clerics of Oerth or Sigil would do. It's not like the word "Ur-priest" is something any of our characters would have heard before.

I mean, which is more likely: this guy steals magic from the gods, something no one knew was possible and which does not have widely-known precedents; or, this guy channels divine powers through faith and devotion, which is generally not possible in our world but which we know, from being avid planewalkers, is almost standard in the multiverse outside our small plane? Your PCs can react however they will, but it's not as if this issue is as much of a no-brainer as you make it out to be.

The Eldreth valuuthra is perhaps the most devoted followers of the seldarine and the seldarine way (in thier albiet twisted way), even if they get no blessings at all, if there was even a hint of you stealing from a seldarine god, they would not only torture and kill you, they would kill every single being you ever meet just to make sure noone else had the power to taint thier gods, the sword of the people makes the witch hunters and trials look just and fair.
Aside from some dark god cults, the eldreth valuuthra, would be ones to grip thier arrows and bows first.... Noone messes with elven culture and least of all thier gods..

the only group i can see as accepting ur-priests within the setting of faerun would be the Kir-lalan or however that is spelled as they are devout anti gods, the rest of faerun are all accepting gods as thier protectors or lords in whatever shape that must come in, there is no mention any place in the sourcebooks of people wanting to be "liberated".

Frankly, I dont see any group that is religius as accepting of people stealing power from gods, especially considering the havoc the last time a mage tried to do that.

And I dont see any sane person being willing to risk a trip to the wall of souls for the sake of a guy stealing from the gods, kelemvor is a vindictive bastard when it comes to turning against your god, and aiding a person that goes against this, essentially a enemy of all gods, would indeed, atleast in my oppion, send you strait to the wall. which people of faerun would know, and much more fear from especially the dark gods.

(please note that the mention of the persons sanity comes from an assestment of a pc/npc in the faerun universe, not the players/dm's of them)

Perhaps some gods would be forgiving, but I really really really doubt it (again my oppion)

as for ur-priest not being known, i see mages mention the most secret thing in existance, the shadow weave, i would be very very suprised if clerics on this server wouldnt know of people stealing from thier gods, is this right, no I dont think so, but it cant be stopped as most of us have read atleast the campaign setting and know things that are perhaps beyond what our chars should know, but knowing of ur-priests is no greater leap than knowing of the shadow weave, or knowing the mages of luskan are really a evil cult with a dracolich in thier mist.

If ur-priests are accepted as part of this server, then we have to assume that people know of them, and especially since faith is such a huge and venerated thing of faerun, any scholars of the nature of devinity itself, could very possibly know of this.

But as I said, this was only if the cities/people found out.

joe15552 wrote:

Kraniumbrud wrote:

You should also be aware that alot of the cities are heavily devouted to gods, winya (if it returns) kohlingen whafttown howness and barak runedar will likely ban you as soon as they find out (again this is my assumption) and while bendir cordor and such have traditionally been very openminded, I doubt you would find much friendlyness there even if you are accepted.. faith is HUGE in faerun, people know they will get stuck in a wall of torture if they dont follow a god, as such hostile to those that steal from thier gods... well it invites a smacking, even from followers of good gods.

you will likely find yourself alone in many aspects, but then again, i might be utterly wrong.

and again, that being said, I love the idea

yeah, I'm aware of all those things, and I'm also aware of the fact that there are groups that would readily ACCEPT a known Ur Priest. it's really no different from playing any other character that choses an extreme alignment or path, like paladin, monk, druid, assassins... except that your character has to figure out where he belongs, and Ur Priests have a different place than all of those.

The only group I can see as accepting a challenger to the gods (and other devine giving entities) is the kir-lalan (sp?) as they are faithless and hates gods.

That is kinda the problem for the char, most faiths dont accept any challenges to thier devinity and almost all people in faerun are followers of some god, you fall outside what is normal even amongst the most darkest and twisted people of faerun, you fall outside the vast majority of all spectums of faerun life good, evil, neutral extreme or not, you are a challenge to a base idea of what faerun is all about, the power struggle of the devinities.

I like the idea I really do, but I think you will have a hard time that is all, if you spill the beans, which I suggest you never ever ever do

You're making a lot of assumptions to get to the conclusion, though. It is certainly a valid point of view someone with the appropriate information (or rash judgement that just happens to be more or less correct) could maintain, but it requires a lot of pieces to fall into place, and that is hardly a given.

The Eldreth Veluuthra example was twofold: it shows that even in the Realms you do not always require a deity to get divine spells (though it is the general rule), making Ur-priestdom hard to even identify, and it shows that desperate people will take the power offered, even if it is unorthodox. The idea that everyone on Toril is conformist by nature, and does not have the slightest hint of rebelliousness, anti-establishment attitude or intellectual criticism, is not believable. People venerate the gods for a variety of reasons, one being that they grant divine spells. If someone who was rejected by a church or was too non-conformist by nature to accept their authority, was suddenly approached by an Ur-priest preaching a gospel of self-sufficiency and power without servitude to a deity, don't you think he'd take it? How long would it take to realise that it actually involved stealing from the gods - if it can ever be conclusively proven - and at that point would it be such a big deal to him? Are you not, in fact, stealing from the gluttonous and cruel clerical oligarchy who hoard all the divine favor and distributing it back to the people to whom it belongs - the people whose collective imagination has created and maintains the divine reality in the first place?

Is the Ur-priest, after all, not the Robin Hood of Religion? The Martin Luther King of the non-clerical? :wink:

Just to clarify, I am not trying to argue how Ur-priests "should" be best regarded, IC. But I do think it warrants more thought than the obvious first reaction that comes to mind; the Robin Hood picture painted above could be perfectly convincing IC. And furthermore, I am not saying it is illegal for your PC to know stuff, and of course there will be those who know a little too much - whether it's about the Shadow Weave or Ur-priests - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't recommend we play our characters a little dumber than we're "legally" entitled to. If you have not encountered an Ur-priest-related plot in game, why should you assume your PC has an opinion?

IronAngel wrote:

You're making a lot of assumptions to get to the conclusion, though. It is certainly a valid point of view someone with the appropriate information (or rash judgement that just happens to be more or less correct) could maintain, but it requires a lot of pieces to fall into place, and that is hardly a given.

The Eldreth Veluuthra example was twofold: it shows that even in the Realms you do not always require a deity to get divine spells (though it is the general rule), making Ur-priestdom hard to even identify, and it shows that desperate people will take the power offered, even if it is unorthodox. The idea that everyone on Toril is conformist by nature, and does not have the slightest hint of rebelliousness, anti-establishment attitude or intellectual criticism, is not believable. People venerate the gods for a variety of reasons, one of which being that they grant divine spells. If someone who was rejected by a church or was too non-conformist by nature to accept their authority, was suddenly approached by an Ur-priest preaching a gospel of self-sufficiency and power without servitude to a deity, don't you think he'd take it? How long would it take to realise that it actually involved stealing from the gods, and if it could be proven, would it be such a big deal to him at that point? Are you not, in fact, stealing from the gluttonous and cruel clerical oligarchy who hoard all the divine favor and distribute it back to the people to whom it belongs - the people whose collective imagination has created and maintains the divine reality in the first place?

Is the Ur-priest, after all, not the Robin Hood of Religion? The Martin Luther King of the non-clerical? :wink:

Just to clarify, I am not trying to argue how Ur-priests "should" be best regarded, IC. But I do think it warrants more thought than the obvious first reaction that comes to mind; the Robin Hood picture painted above could be perfectly convincing IC. And furthermore, I am not saying it is illegal for your PC to know stuff, and of course there will be those who know a little too much - whether it's about the Shadow Weave or Ur-priests - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't recommend we play our characters a little dumber than we're "legally" entitled to. If you have not encountered an Ur-priest-related plot in game, why should you assume your PC has an opinion?

The eldretch valuuthra is the very last group that would accept a thief of the seldarines power, and they would never knowingly steal from the seldarine, and also it is likely shar that gives them the power (i will find that qoute when i get home tomorrow for you if you want it

People dont challenge the gods in faerun, because the books says that those that do are specifically mentioned and pulled out as exceptions such as karsus, bane myrkul and so forth.. there is no mention of how many atheists there is in waterdeep, because it is assumed from good reason (aka the wall) that noone is stupid enough or have reason to risk eternal damnation.

Im not the one making assumptions iron, you are, as I have some basis for my statements in the books, you just assume that people would fight religion in faerun with no basis in lore.

Tormaksaber made it clear what faithless are regarded ass

TormakSaber wrote:

I am not sure why either side continues this argument. Amia, and standard FR canon both place faithless as an extreme minority and also explains that you would have tohave negative mental modifiers pretty much, to actually believe that the gods do not exist and do not have the powers they are said to have.

Quote:

Also, if you meet an atheist, tell him the story of electricity and he will convert almost instantly. A presentation with light bulbs will guarantee a conversion provided that your atheist is not flawed (read: he must be an idiot)

Yes, and this happens every day in the Realms with Divine Magic.

This is the official statement by the dm team on the npc's regard of the faithless

I would claim that those that challenge that devinity is just as nuts, much more if they claim to be in posssession of the same power as those granted by gods, you simply dont challenge the gods, because to do so is such a huge diversion from the norm that you would be put in the same booth as complete nutters, even more so than the faithless... but now..your a dangerus nutter.

And I state again show me one single example of a widespread opposition to gods in general and teh idea of religion as being some form of ruler, not opposition to one god, thats common, but to all gods... I can find none except a very very tiny minority like the kir-lalann.

Until you give such a qoute, all your speculations are just ideas of yours with no basis in faerun lore. so dont accuse me of making assumptions when your just pulling thoughts out of nowhere and claim for them to have same creedence as things taken from actual lore books.

There is no religius robin hood because robin hood wouldnt be noticed as a savior if he stole for people who didnt want anything from him...that makes him just a thief and a unpopular one aswell, it dosnt paint any clear picture at all, cause it makes no sense at all in a Faerun setting, none what so ever, and until you prove people feel oppressed by religion as a whole, that this is a general movement in faerun, then the facts speaks against you, most people as tormak said it follow gods, and are devout followers.

as for not knowing, the shadow weave is much more secret than anything in existance, I doubt ur-priests can even rate remotely as secret as something protected by the goddess of secrets.

The netherese alone would have discovered this posibility of twisting the devines power and they would have made this known in thier infinite knowledge of everything. this puts it into a reeasonable range of what a high lore char would know.

Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Aug 29 2014, 20:56 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Okay. Our posts speak for themselves, I think. I am not sure how I am to provide a quote for what is reasonable, psychologically plausible and philosophically almost inevitable. If you cannot accept that other people may have different interpretations and that NPCs across the world are a homogenous mass of normativity, there really is no argument to be had. I don't think your view is somehow wrong, I just think you have no basis to assume it is as obvious as you make it out to be. But there is no decisive argument I could make against your thesis, because no evidence save for a novel about an Ur-priest people's hero would suffice.

IronAngel wrote:

Okay. Our posts speak for themselves, I think.

I dissagrea, you claim there is a opposition to religion, you give no proof in the lore.

your posts says nothing but your own oppion, and claim it as reasonable in faerun, despite perfectly clear lore that religion is accepted by all and not opposed in general except by a very very tiny minority

but back to subject, I love the idea just be ready to face consequences from some people on the server

Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Aug 29 2014, 21:19 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Sorry, I edited a little more into it.

I did not claim there was widespread "opposition to religion." You're putting words into my mouth. Nothing about Ur-priests or their followers screams "faithless", in fact. You could very well be a disappointed layman who was not accepted into your church, and so you turn to Ur-priesthood to make your own way. In the name of a god, perhaps, or perhaps just quite independent of gods (and not everything in everyone's life has to do with gods) but not against them. Maybe it really is a crime against gods - that OOC judgement is not entirely certain - but it's perfectly plausible not to interpret it as such IC.

You do not have to oppose the gods to take power that is offered to you. By that logic, a beggar would never take a church's stolen tithes if Robin Hood offered them, either. And, note: there are no Ur-priests in canon Realms, the class is from Complete Divine; we have no canonical lore on how people would react to one, so it really comes down to what's believable and interesting. If the disappointed and dispossessed of Faerûn, living under (perceived) clerical tyranny, like a pauper in Mulhorand, were suddenly told their personal strength of character and faith in everything that is good could tap into the collective pool of divine magic, are you really that sure they'd reject it?

I presented a psychologically believable character portrait. That, to me, is proof enough. We have to assume people in the setting exhibit the same spectrum of personalities and mental faculties as real people do - if they didn't, we could not role-play them. So if we take into account the empirical reality these characters live in, and apply the psychological knowledge and literary archetypes of our civilization within those parameters, whatever comes out must be more or less valid. That's how role-play happens. The fact that a WotC employer (not exactly renowned authors or thinkers) did not happen to think of the same concept and write an NPC profile does not invalidate it.

We're not even talking about NPC reactions; we're talking about our PCs. In that field, whatever can be imagined goes, and the the best, most carefully crafted and imaginative interpretation wins. I'm not arguing a point of lore, I am exhorting you to expand the pallette and step up the game by suggesting alternatives.

I like the kind of hierarchical fear that Iron was touching on in his earlier posts. The Ur-Priest is someone who receives divine powers without servitude to a faith. I don't think it's as simple as a priest being offended because the Ur-Priest is stealing from his deity. I think it's more a fear that if everyone knew that the Ur-Priest's powers were available to any, that it would break the entire system that the priests have so carefully cultivated.

The Ur-Priest is like a card counter in a game of Blackjack. Sure, the casino might be mad because he's cheating, but they're more mad because his knowledge represents a threat to the entire industry of gambling.

Well put! I agree, and that is why I think he might find some support (though by no means do I seriously suggest a mass movement): the clerical establishment is based on exclusion of the majority. There are bound to be those who don't want to be excluded. It is not so much antipathy towards gods but antipathy towards priests that might motivate an Ur-priest and his followers.

The same phenomenon has happened in real life countless times, too; just take the Reformation, for example, or Cromwell's New Model Army (which, at least, was hostile to the high church type of establishment). Anticlericalism does not necessarily go hand in hand with atheism, it can even arise from revolutionary devotion. (Which, in the Ur-priest case, may be misguided, but that's neither here nor there.)

What about bringing an Ur Priest back from the dead? That's gotta be quite a pickle.

He would be a false at best, and faithless at worst. So it is either eternal servitude within the city, or the slow painful deteriation into nothing within the wall.

Last edited by IronAngel on Fri, Aug 29 2014, 21:38 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Canonically, yeah. I am not sure what the official stance is at the moment, but I think it's fair to say we've thrown a lot of the canonical restrictions to the wind to make the game work. We have faithless, false, outsiders, fey and stuff being raised, too. I do not know of any special character requests to have been approved with the caveat that they can't be raised, even when canon lore would have called for it.

EDIT: In theory, I suppose you could be an Ur-priest and a lay servant of, say, Mask, stealing powers from other deities but not him. If you were a good Maskarran (and why wouldn't you be - you steal from the gods themselves!) I am not sure you'd be regarded as False. Of course, this is a highly atypical concept for an Ur-priest since generally they seem to be about making their own way without gods.

Those canonical restrictions have begun to be enforced with special characters, as those are held to higher standards. For example, pure blood devils being destroyed on the material plane now bring with them the lore appropriate penalties. Not sure if that would apply to a Ur Priest, given they are not quite as special as a full blooded devil would be.

Yeah. It's that applied gloss, as Atryin would say. One of the struggles with being a server that values player freedom and character persistence is that sometimes we have to really stretch to come up with reasons why things are as they are, for the sake of OOC ease of play.

This is why I prefer WYSIWYG for magical lore; it's easier to suppose things work consistently as they do in game than to adopt unnecessarily wieldly PnP cosmology and rules and try to apply them in a few arbitrarily selected cases. We cannot, in practice, limit characters' freedom to respawn and be raised (unless we adopt the cool permadeath system I advocate!

) so isn't it best to assume that particular bit of PnP lore doesn't apply? Especially since Respawn should not be available to anyone in the first place, special PC or not. Not a discussion for this topic, granted, we are not bound to do things the hard way unless we want to.

IronAngel wrote:

This is why I prefer WYSIWYG for magical lore; it's easier to suppose things work consistently as they do in game than to adopt unnecessarily wieldly PnP cosmology and rules and try to apply them in a few arbitrarily selected cases. We cannot, in practice, limit characters' freedom to respawn and be raised (unless we adopt the cool permadeath system I advocate!

) so isn't it best to assume that particular bit of PnP lore doesn't apply? Especially since Respawn should not be available to anyone in the first place, special PC or not. Not a discussion for this topic, granted, we are not bound to do things the hard way unless we want to.

Well.... I think the argument that an Ur Priest can't respawn like everyone else is a good argument. Wouldn't it be interesting if someone that was making an Ur Priest (or similar character) took extra precautions that other people didn't have to do in order to preserver their character's soul? I think it would.

Having said that, I'd wouldn't impose those precautions on someone else playing a similar character... but I might suggest it. It's COOL!

I was actually thinking about this a bit-- Wouldn't a Ur-Priest be something of an idol in the company of Maskarran faithful? The dogma preaches rightful ownership being tied to your capability to take what you desire. If the Ur-Priest steals from the Gods, an orthodox Maskarran would have to also appreciate that the man is capable of doing so-- and because he is capable, he is also justified in doing so.

It kind of reminds me of the tale of Andromalius, the Repentant Rogue (Which I believe was fit for the Greyhawk setting, but Vestiges are confusing anyway [See: Pact Magic]). The tale is of a master thief named Andromalius, who had earned the wholehearted favor of the current god of trickery. However, in his final act, he wanted to steal something so great that he would forever-more impress the God: he wanted to steal his own soul. At the eve of his death, he willingly committed every single blasphemous act that he could, condemning his soul outside of the domain of his beloved god. At first, the god was outraged from what he believed to be a betrayal-- but then it dawned on him, and he admired the beauty of Andromalius' heist. However.. if he let the rogue back into his domain, it would foil the entire severity of the heist, so the God could neither reward the rogue as he so wished, but he could not also let the greatest heist he had ever seen go without his blessing. So instead of condemning Andromalius or welcoming him back, the God empowered him and plucked him from the cycle of mortality and time, sentencing him to spend his days as a demipower on the edge of existence (A vestige!).

I have a feeling that Mask would have to admire the Ur-Priest, even if he couldn't make him a standard faithful (Because it would spoil the heist!)

Mr. Hackums wrote:

I have a feeling that Mask would have to admire the Ur-Priest, even if he couldn't make him a standard faithful (Because it would spoil the heist!)

Such a good example...

I'd also like to point out that there are plenty of deities that just plain would not care about Ur Priests. "Oh look, a mortal that doesn't give a damn about me. Guess I won't give a damn about him."

I think it is less the deities, but more the clergy that a Urpriest would need to worry about. As long as he lives, that is. If you for instance read the Cormyr Novels, you get a taste of the politics of large churches in the Forgotten Realms. There it is clearly demonstrated that organizations and churches pursue interrests of establishing dominance, and making sure that is not infringed upon. The possibility of the Church of Chauntea receiving a royal temple in Suzail by the late Crown Princess brought an abundance of problems to the late King. The other churches had strong reservations and wished to prevent it, as well as the War Wizards who did not wish to share their influence as the national spellweaver organization in service of the Crown.

On Amia, that is aspect is generally downplayed to the degree there really are not many problems between churches. With that I mean between churches who ideologically are not polar opposites or have feuding PC characters as their heads of church. Usually because the influence churches have on the population gain very little attention in the dm run storylines and is very static, and outside of the PC population's sight. That in addition of Amia generally having a very high tolerance level. In contrast to what is allowed to run about on Amia, you should be fine. This region simply has a very different culture than most of the mainland, so transfering what would usually happen or who things usually work back east at times really does not work.

IronAngel wrote:

Well put! I agree, and that is why I think he might find some support (though by no means do I seriously suggest a mass movement): the clerical establishment is based on exclusion of the majority. There are bound to be those who don't want to be excluded. It is not so much antipathy towards gods but antipathy towards priests that might motivate an Ur-priest and his followers.

The same phenomenon has happened in real life countless times, too; just take the Reformation, for example, or Cromwell's New Model Army (which, at least, was hostile to the high church type of establishment). Anticlericalism does not necessarily go hand in hand with atheism, it can even arise from revolutionary devotion. (Which, in the Ur-priest case, may be misguided, but that's neither here nor there.)

There is no evidence of exclusion of the general majority by all faiths, nor any basis to say that the faiths in general are based on this, this is not shown in the lore.
There is no evidence either of general apathy towards priests( as a profession) in the lore either.

THe faiths in faerun are -NOT- the catholic church nor can there be drawn comparisons to the catholic church, which leads me to my last point of your comment.
Bane is like the catholic church, but guess what, you can choose another faith of a kind caring faith like lathander, and they will not excluded anyone, diversity destroys any arguement that there should be enmity against the clergy as a institution.
I doubt very much he can gather a handfull amongst all of faeruns civilians who oppose all clerics and the institution of faith.
Especially considering they are under threat of eternity in the wall, which I dont even think would be something civilians feared, as they know that lathander likes good people and so forth.

RL cant be applied at all to this case, as gods actually exists in faerun, Gods walked the world, there is no reason for civilians, nor is there any evidence in the lore that leads me to think that there is any kind of hostility or even misttrust to the clergy of a god you pay homage too (as most do).

A church organisation in which the 0.5% (if that) are clerics or otherwise formally ordained and allowed, not only divine spells, but monopoly on positions of authority, is not exclusive? I am not sure what dictionary you're consulting, but to me that is the very definition of exclusive. (You could check an example ratio by counting all the clergy in Waterdeep, assuming City of Splendors lists them, and comparing it against the population. The churches of Waterdeep are probably better-staffed than the average. I imagine it's one priest, cleric or not, for a few hundred lay followers.)

Most churches are based on hierarchy, obedience and restricted access, and I don't see how you could possibly argue otherwise. Do you suggest any beggar on the street could clasp his hands in prayer and cast Greater Restoration, without years of submission to rigorous study, obedience and review, during which time either your clerical superior or your deity can reject you for not being good enough? Do you suggest nobody in the history of Faerûn has ever flunked cleric school or did not have the money/social status to get admitted in the first place? You're grasping for straws that aren't there. I am not sure what the Catholic church has to do with it, either; it does not take a lot of reading into any culture to realize people do not equate the formal institutions of religion with the object of devotion as a rule. You can very well believe in God and follow biblical example despite criticising the local bishop and the church's recruitment policy; I wager that is the norm these days. Even the archetypically devout Middle Ages produced countless pages of estate satire making fun of lecherous friars and gluttonous priests.

You can, of course, play your characters how you see fit, but I'm personally unconvinced by your generalizations. I'm more interested in new, alternative perspectives to Ur-priests and their reception, though. If you don't find this one example convincing, you don't have to play it. What would you say might motivate an Ur-priest, what kind of a background might he come from, and what could his goals be?

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