AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - The Official Teach a Man to Fish topic (Build topic):

I once saw a Garagosian on Arelith, who was a cleric/WM/Divine Champion, wielding a scythe.

It was pretty righteous, but there are a few issues with that build on Amia...

1. There are loads of people with high AC and AB, such that they would hit a scythe-wielding WM without much problem, but the WM might have a little trouble hitting them unless it had time to heavily buff. It's the same problem Frugdar has. Massive damage output, but he just can't tango with people like Dirk or Soilbrood (who's immune to crits, thus making a Scythe build even worse.)

2. As previously stated, most Cleric buffs can be found on items, in party members other than yourself, or in other builds without Cleric. War Cry? There's an item for that. Prayer? Bless? Aid? Divine Favor? Battletide? All of those are attainable on items/potions. You can even self-buff Flame Weapon in several different ways without having caster levels.

3. Because of the way gear and mythals work on Amia, you don't need to have a base 30 Fortitude save. You can have a base 20 Fort and just stick +18 fort on your gear set, and be fine. You don't need to build for massive saves with the kind of gear and magic we have here.

4. It's feat starved, so due to the fact you might fight crit-immune enemies, or enemies that can dodge your hits, or enemies that do lots of damage to your fragile low-AC build, your versatility is zero. You don't have IKD. You don't have Improved Disarm, or Improved Expertise (why you'd use that with a two handed weapon anyway is beyond me, but hey, who cares). You don't get Dev Crit or Overwhelming Crit, or (Epic) Weapon Specialization to add that sweet +6 damage (or +30 on a scythe WM crit) onto your damage... You're just a bland, point an' click build. No fun.

In Arelith that build works way better, because the game is much, much lower magic in terms of gear. You can't get +3 stat enhancements on gear, or higher, on Arelith; and +2 stat gear is rare too. You can't get +5 uni save gear. You can't get +5 AC boots. There aren't items with War Cry or Battletide on them, in Arelith. However, on a medium magic server like Amia, where powerbuilding is also an art form with some, you won't be anything special. You'll be a gimped Fighter/WM/rogue, if anything, because you have no Weapon Spec, and no Tumble/UMD or any really useful combat feats.

If you wanted to go Cleric/Rogue/WM, that's a bit better, because now you have Tumble/UMD, but again, why bother with Cleric at this point? Just go Fighter, and use shittons of scrolls, wands, and potions, honestly. If you're gonna be an effective warrior, you're not going to be an effective caster. You can't get Dev Crit, WM pre-req feats, epic spell penetration, and also get a 40 DC on implosion. It's not gonna happen. I'd go, if anything, 11 Cleric, 2 Rogue, and 17 Weapon Master, so you can cast Harm, Heal, have some bonus epic feats, and a massive AB, with tumble/UMD. Casting Harm on an uppity palemaster, who's immune to your crits and has high AC (but low touch AC), would be pretty hilarious.

Monk 25 Fighter 5, does it sound viable? I made it wis based (22) with 18 dex, I was thinking of making it dex focused instead, but I think wisdom may be preferred if I enjoy the character and want to make requests and for rp and such. (I could easily end up with 45 ab dex based though, but the stun DC and abilities will be weaker)

Shadowfiend wrote:

Monk 25 Fighter 5, does it sound viable? I made it wis based (22) with 18 dex, I was thinking of making it dex focused instead, but I think wisdom may be preferred if I enjoy the character and want to make requests and for rp and such. (I could easily end up with 45 ab dex based though, but the stun DC and abilities will be weaker)

Your choice on the Dex/Wis, but I would choose Dex. I would go Monk 25, Fighter 4, and Wizard/Rogue 1 (depending on what you want to do with skill points and using magic stuff). Just Armor Skin and the rest Improved Spell Resistance feats in epic levels, and spells will do nothing to the monk most of the time. The SR would actually be higher than what a pure monk could get I believe, and there is the use of magic items also that pure monks don't get.

Murex wrote:

Shadowfiend wrote:

Monk 25 Fighter 5, does it sound viable? I made it wis based (22) with 18 dex, I was thinking of making it dex focused instead, but I think wisdom may be preferred if I enjoy the character and want to make requests and for rp and such. (I could easily end up with 45 ab dex based though, but the stun DC and abilities will be weaker)

Your choice on the Dex/Wis, but I would choose Dex. I would go Monk 25, Fighter 4, and Wizard/Rogue 1 (depending on what you want to do with skill points and using magic stuff). Just Armor Skin and the rest Improved Spell Resistance feats in epic levels, and spells will do nothing to the monk most of the time. The SR would actually be higher than what a pure monk could get I believe, and there is the use of magic items also that pure monks don't get.

If I drop a fighter lvl I can't get epic weapon specialization. My goal isn't to make an anti-mage though, more hoping for a PvE monk, for which the sr should be high enough. I am not sure, but I think my test build got 1 improved SR too

I would examine the notion of there being any meaningful difference in the RP of a WIS22 Monk and a WIS14 Monk.

The list of things where a focussed Stunning Fist DC is workable is:

1) The pre-epic mobs you beat up for easy gold or Intermediate Mythal. These handily have what epics call very low AC, so your AB problem isn't a factor.

b) Twohanderers, hitpoint casters, damage reductors and other builds that don't primarily rely on AC, but have failed to use the resulting gearset freedom and/or class'n'stat mix to have all the Fort in the world. This is a PvP fail so hard that they'll probably use tactics like 'going AFK' during any rough stuff with you, so I shouldn't worry about them.

Third) People who normally have skyhigh AC but are flatfooted or KD'd. This is a valid niche, since most AC monkeys are DEX-based and vulnerable to Balagarn's Iron Horn items, and a reasonable percentage assume their huge AC makes them unDevCrittable and skimp on Fort. This is perhaps why Arcane Defiance Cloth is one of the top tier uberloots.

For everything else, DEX-based is better, but be kind to yourself and throw in enough SD to reach Epic Dodge. Monk20/Ftr5/SD5 does it, and keeps your Epic WS and full attack progression.

Quote:

I would examine the notion of there being any meaningful difference in the RP of a WIS22 Monk and a WIS14 Monk.

Well, maybe for custom abilities.

Quote:

For everything else, DEX-based is better, but be kind to yourself and throw in enough SD to reach Epic Dodge. Monk20/Ftr5/SD5 does it, and keeps your Epic WS and full attack progression.

The fewer monk lvls the lower DC though, the build I had in mind may end up with a DC of 37, and that could prolly be pulled up a bit

Kenneth wrote:

Shadowfiend wrote:

Hello, wondering if there's some way to make a viable build that is primarily a melee class (Ranger, fighter, barbarian, won't be LG so no paladin), but with some cleric lvls

Sure. Totally viable. Depends on how many cleric levels you want, really. Too few, and it's really going to be a waste. I'd take just enough warrior levels pre-epic to get your 4 attacks, and then go cleric for the rest. You probably want at least 17 cleric, to get the 9th level spells, but I'd really just go ahead and get 20. You can make a powerful 20 Cleric, 9 fighter (or barb), 1 Rogue. I'd probably go with trickery/something, but it's really not critical. Take the rest of your warrior in epic, and get your good epic feats. You'll be able to solo everything.

A bit out of the blue maybe, but is a similar build, if not similarly strong but still viable with druid lvls instead of cleric lvls?

I can't really speak to druids at all, having never played one in NWN. Fighter/Druids in non-NWN D&D have always worked really well for me, though. Most of them here, however, seem to focus primarily on the shape-shifting aspect and seem to be multi-classed with shifter. They get a lot of cool higher level spells, so I'd think you'd want to go fairly high in the class to get access to them. Adding fighter to anything in NWN tends only to strengthen the other classes, so I imagine it would be fine. Given the fact your animal companion scales in kind of a ridiculous way, once you buff it you've got a terrifying meat-shield.

I personally think a fighter/druid/whatever would be a lot more entertaining than cleric.

Kenneth wrote:

I can't really speak to druids at all, having never played one in NWN. Fighter/Druids in non-NWN D&D have always worked really well for me, though. Most of them here, however, seem to focus primarily on the shape-shifting aspect and seem to be multi-classed with shifter. They get a lot of cool higher level spells, so I'd think you'd want to go fairly high in the class to get access to them. Adding fighter to anything in NWN tends only to strengthen the other classes, so I imagine it would be fine. Given the fact your animal companion scales in kind of a ridiculous way, once you buff it you've got a terrifying meat-shield.

I personally think a fighter/druid/whatever would be a lot more entertaining than cleric.

I don't think they have the same kind of self buffs, but on the other hand they don't need both cha and wis

Well, yeah, they don't get certain things like vestment. But, that's not a huge deal. They've got Greater Stoneskin, Premonition, Freedom, Spell Resistance, both Regenerations. Here, they also get GMW and all the animal buffs. That's all pretty good buff-wise, though it's mostly defense. Priests do get a lot more AB buffers.

They also get a variety of really neat spells that clerics don't, like creeping doom.

The pet scaling means you want as much Druid as you possibly can, but really the biggest spoiler for making a straight melee Druid/Ftr is that caster Druid which, at level 29 or 30, becomes a Dragonshaper Druid is so much better.

There's one discussed a few ages back, if you want to use the search function at the bottom left, which looks within this thread alone.

I disagree with Kenneth about the importance of AB buffing; Clerics get all +20 whereas Druids only get +11 at most. Melee characters without good AB need something to compensate, and while Druids get it(strong summons/Animal Empathies/companions) it's not going to be that different to a non-melee Druid, because you'll both be flailing around while your pets eat everything, it's just that the meleer will be slightly better at it.

Is there a generally rule of thumb for how much UMD ranks it takes to use say, a flame weapon scroll?

10 (or 15?) is enough to use any scroll I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

I don't know the exact number for UMD to use flame weapon scrolls, but I know it's far less than 10.

Polris wrote:

10 (or 15?) is enough to use any scroll I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Wrong or right, it doesn't answer the question.

My bad. UMD is useful in increments of 5 so I thought that if I say that 10 is good for everything then it would be obvious that 5 is enough for Flame Weapon since it's a low level spell. I should've been more precise. Sorry!

To make up for it I went and checked and it turns out 5 is enough for Flame weapon and 10 is enough for 9th level spells.

Thank you very much for your answers, that helps a lot.

Is the Cleric Death Domain summon in epic levels good enough that I don't need to take the Epic Mummy Dust?

It's really not. Unless you only hunt in a group, even then it's only half-decent. Undead Scythe WM with only 2 attacks.

I used not to want to touch Shifter, but then I took an arrow in the knee. The spread I'm thinking of is Druid5/BG8/Shifter17.

1) Does Dark Blessing work while shifted?

2) Can you use Divine Might and Shield while shifted?

3) Is it even possible to reach a feasible CHA via gearing with that setup, or is it utter arse; I thought the cloak slot would be nicely vacant for the CHA +5, or am I missing something?

4) Which feats have you experienced most useful on a Shifter; any must-haves?

5) Do the skills from the shapes, as listed in the Shifter Excel sheet, add to the base value (i.e. ranks) or do they only apply if the base value is lower than that in the shifted form? E.g. my Discipline rank is 25 and I shift into an Iron Golem. Does it stay at 25 or add up to 45?

6) Which shapes have you found the most entertaining?

BONUS: What the bleep does this mean?

In Wikipedian hieroglyphs they wrote:

Shifting will retain each of a character's racial bonuses/penalties to ability scores (e.g. elven +2 Dex, -2Cons) for all its applications from saving throws to DC determination (with the exception of a few that directly get the ability score instead of the modifier, e.g. shifted half-orcs do not apply their racial bonus to strength against balagarn's iron horn) unless the ability corresponding to that particular bonus/penalty is changed either as a result of the shift (including item merge and stat overriding) or following the shift. Some hardcoded aspects where this does not apply include the weight associated without being encumbered (e.g. a shifted half-orc in kobold form has a reduced ability to carry items) and in skill points on level up (e.g. a shifted half-orc gets an additional skill point causing the build to no longer be legal).

Tested the questions 1 and 2 with positive results. They do work.

As for gearing though, does offhand grant you stackable properties nowadays as well? At least it's mentioned in the Modifications that "All shapes now merge every equipment slot[...]",from which I can only assume that offhand is included in "every equipment slot". If so, do the offhand bonuses also stack with the rest of the ability modifiers, like it does for the mainhand bonuses?

Almost all of the melee shapes get KD from the shifting, so I was wondering if it's really worth it to go IKD instead of relying on the regular KD from the shapes and opting for Metamagic, Empower and Maximize, instead? Or do you actually even need both? For some reason I'm under the impression that Empower and Maximize work with different spells, through only the gods know why!

Metamagic doesnt work with shifter spells. They're wasted feats on a shifter.

Improved knock down is great (and i have it on my shifter) because most of your shifts are going to be larger size categories.

For gearing remember that for stats, the largest bonus applies. It does not stack. Example: You have a nymph cloak +6 and +3 charisma boots. When you shift you only get 6 charisma, not 9. Regeneration does stack so have as much as your gear will allow since you cant use heal kits or items that arent potions in shifted forms. The offhand is included when you shift. However, if you have a weapon in the offhand I dont think you will get the properties. Shields work fine. I believe the line about every slot merging is because without the modifications here, certain shapes only merge certain spots and gloves never would merge.

The bonuses from mainhand items stack with the largest bonus from other gear. E.g. a +2 CHA sword and Nymph +6 would amount to 8. However, since the offhand merging is an Amian delight, I don't know if that functions similarly. If having another +2 CHA sword in offhand would amount to 10. Or shield, for that matter, apparently. And I thought I remembered Uce spamming Empowered spells on his Shifter, but must've been me dreaming of him again.

EDIT wrote:

The spells burning hands, ice storm, Mestil's acid breath, and dispel magic are the same spells that can be found in a spellbook. Thus quickslots for these spells can be used to cast the (unlimited) shifted abilities, and can be used to apply metamagic. See shifted ability for details.

So I guess it works after all, or have you in fact tested this ingame? I'd appreciate it a great deal if someone with access to the Amian Test Module could test it out!

"Note that metamagic feats do not work on Shifter spells, and Expertise/Improved Expertise cannot be used on Shifter abilities nor spells." ~ that's from the shifter changes. I have tested it in game. Druid forms CAN used metamagic'd spells. However it's on the greater elemental forms that shifters dont have access too.

We used to be able to metamagic shifter spells. Unlimited empowered firestorms were a thing with the epic lizardfolk. Might be why he doesnt have firestorm anymore. It was a few months after tormak left if i remember correctly. I just cant find the announcement for it.

I'll have to find an offhand to test the merging. If it works that would make gearing sooooo much easier.

Okay. Thanks a lot! So my feat arsenal looks like: PA, Cleave, Alertness, KD, IKD, Divine shield, Divine might, Blindfight. I suppose the other feats available wouldn't serve any greater purpose anyway. Also, Solvaras, can you answer this?

Quote:

E.g. my Discipline rank is 25 and I shift into an Iron Golem. Does it stay at 25 or add up to 45?

Without any strength buffs it would be 55 due to the golem's form getting 30 strength. I dont believe multiple skill bonuses merge, but even so if you use the discipline gloves you'd be sitting at 85 discipline.

I'm thinking of making a planar turning cleric build using an aasimar cleric, any ideas?

I'm all for people doing crazy fun shit, but... http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Planar_turning
It is so entirely ability intensive that all your epic feats and then some are taken up with them. What you gain is not worth what you lose by proxy. But if you really want to do it, I'd recommend some Divine Champion to boost your wisdom some.

What other pointers were you looking for?

So... I'm thinking of making a Gold Dragon Disciple spellsword build; he'd be a Knight of the Mystic Flame (paladins dedicated to Mystra), and this feels like it should be such an easy build to make... But the problem isn't so much making the build as finding a way for it to be viable at lower levels. I definitely want a full 10 levels in Dragon Disciple, and I'm thinking probably 14-17 levels in Sorceror and then 3-5 in Paladin, depending on ECL. Casting would be primarily for buffing, seeing as they obviously wouldn't even be getting Level IX spells (and possibly not even VIII for that matter), and I probably wouldn't get any spell focuses, though I'd definitely pick up Extend Spell.

I'm also not sure which race to go with... I'm torn between a standard human and an aasimar. I'm playing with the idea of him being an aasimar that would trace his lineage on both sides, his father having gold dragon blood, and his mother being traceable back to Bahamut (after a dozen or so generations, of course), deepening his reason for devoting to his draconic lineage.

TLDR: I'm aiming for is a spellsword Sorceror with a bare minimum of 3 levels in Paladin, and a full 10 in Dragon Disciple. Advice?

Don't try to toss too much onto one character. The odds of something having both dragon and aasimar heritage or so infinite that its almost a joke and I'd think you should pick one and focus on it to be more rewarding.

To go with the dragon kin build, until you get much higher levels Paladin ceases being amazeballs at level 2, except for the saves boost. But each 1 level of paladin would be 1 level of uni saves (high charisma and the pally cap our server has) is not worth the trade of extra sorceror spells.

18 Sorceror (level 9 spells), 2 paladin, 10 DD

Granted I still think its terrifically weak, but that's my love for the whole higher levels of a spell caster class thing.

GreatPigeon wrote:

To go with the dragon kin build, until you get much higher levels Paladin ceases being amazeballs at level 2, except for the saves boost.

The saves were actually the main reason I wanted the extra paladin levels, and since this will mostly be a sword build instead of a spellcaster build, I don't see the extra spells being a huge boon- certainly not a bad thing, granted, but very little if any of his spells will be direct damage spells... Maybe fireball. Why fireball? Because it's fireball.

Then again, if I DO get 9th level spells, I could conceivably take Auto-Still Spell... It takes up three feats, but it'd allow me to be a fully armored spellcaster...

Level 9 spells > a few saves.

I need some Monk help: What's the cookie cutter 30 Monk unarmed build?

Dex or strength?

I'll say strength

I am thinking a cleric with dex instead of str, but aside from that it will be pretty common as I've planned it..Then again I don't know what is common, pointers please? Thinking more of a melee cleric rather than a caster.

Strength Monk:
Plain Ol' Human

Strength: 18 -> +7 level up +1 great strength = 26
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 10
Wisdom: 14
Intelligence: 10
Charisma 8

Thats if you want max ab/damage/ and are going for dev crit.

If not adjust accordingly. Strength unarmed monks have so many free feats I'd like to see what you put together first. Just make sure you get weapon focus, blind fight, improved critical, NO CIRCLE KICK.. and the rest is flavor baby.

@ Dex Melee Caster

There's not quite the same synergy because of Clerics being able to use shields and armor without penalty, but you need to give us a bit more. Do you want to use divine might and divine shield, will you be aiming for higher cleric levels, do you want epic spells, race, etc.

Is it considered meta gaming to buff up as a sorceror then switch out to plate armor and a tower shield once the buffs are all in effect?

Anyways, trying for that Paladin 2/Sorceror 18/Dragon Disciple 10 build, this is what I have so far:

Human

Str: 14
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 16

L01: Paladin 1 - Weapon Focus (Longsword), Luck of Heroes
L02: Sorcerer 1
L03: Sorcerer 2 - Blind Fight
L04: Sorcerer 3
L05: Sorcerer 4 - Cha +1
L06: Sorcerer 5 - Extend Spell
L07: Sorcerer 6
L08: Dragon Disciple 1 - Cha +1
L09: Dragon Disciple 2 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
L10: Dragon Disciple 3
L11: Dragon Disciple 4
L12: Dragon Disciple 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha +1
L13: Dragon Disciple 6
L14: Dragon Disciple 7
L15: Dragon Disciple 8 - Empower Spell
L16: Dragon Disciple 9 - Cha +1
L17: Dragon Disciple 10
L18: Paladin 2 - Improved Criticals (Longsword)
L19: Sorcerer 7
L20: Sorcerer 8 - Str +1
L21: Sorcerer 9 - Great Str I
L22: Sorcerer 10
L23: Sorcerer 11
L24: Sorcerer 12 - Great Str II, Str +1
L25: Sorcerer 13
L26: Sorcerer 14
L27: Sorcerer 15 - Great Str III
L28: Sorcerer 16 - Str +1
L29: Sorcerer 17
L30: Sorcerer 18 - Epic Spell Focus (Abjuration)

The lack of tumble and abysmal Dex score would mean pretty horrible AC, but between Haste and DR spells, I think I can negate that... I don't know, what do you guys think?

No, but you are expected to RP it, naturally.

GreatPigeon wrote:

@ Dex Melee Caster

There's not quite the same synergy because of Clerics being able to use shields and armor without penalty, but you need to give us a bit more. Do you want to use divine might and divine shield, will you be aiming for higher cleric levels, do you want epic spells, race, etc.

I was aiming for divine might and divine shield, and atleast 17 cleric lvls

GreatPigeon wrote:

Strength Monk:
Plain Ol' Human

Strength: 18 -> +7 level up +1 great strength = 26
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 10
Wisdom: 14
Intelligence: 10
Charisma 8

Thats if you want max ab/damage/ and are going for dev crit.

If not adjust accordingly. Strength unarmed monks have so many free feats I'd like to see what you put together first. Just make sure you get weapon focus, blind fight, improved critical, NO CIRCLE KICK.. and the rest is flavor baby.

Sounds good, I'll put together a build when I'm next on client.

So I'm wanting to give a warrior a try. I have two ideas - 25 bard/5 KC (between 6 ac song and KC that is a lot of ab/ac and discipline manipulation right?) and the other is Bard 2/RDD 10/Barbarian 18. I do love barbarians and rdd so that would be preferable, if viable. I am not familiar with all the item buffs and such available on Amia though and am unsure what sort of UMD to take. Preferably I would like to use a two handed weapon, better yet still if it comes with improved disarm.

Could anyone kindly lend a hand in getting this off the ground? I'm not sure if two handed is really viable at all in the first place with how high magic the setting is.

Pick one.

I'll drum up mahirs build or you can do a forum search for the bard 25 kc 5 that is a party love machine.

Oh, if there is already a bard/kc build out there I'll just search that on my own, so the barbarian/dragon disciple

Preferably with no stats at 8, though 8 wisdom can actually be acceptable and a positive force to character personality. In fact, yes, 8 wisdom would be fun to rp, and rdd gets a charisma bonus too. It would be either a red or a white dragon disciple with a suitably irritable and violent disposition very quick to give in to force in lieu of diplomacy or socialization to fix any problems or perceived annoyances.

Do you need a high cha for a decent pve combat cleric, or can you do good without it?

@Shadowfiend
Absolutely, try putting one together either way so you can see the pros and cons and make your comparison to yourself.

@Magma Kitten
Do not forget extend spell, maximize spell, or lasting [w]inspiration... Other than that 25/5 means your damage is less than the usual 25 bard 4 fighter 1 rogue, but you boost your party that much more. Your role is less of a front liner at that point and middle support melee. This is not because your AC sucks, this is because you want to stay in the middle cluster of your guys and drop your kc aura bard song on top of the bad guys.

If you need combat advise on how to manipulate a bard I'm sure Ruce, Yoss, myself, Bobo, or any of the others will be happy to help. Ruce just wrote a nice level 30 bard in the fishing lessons which also tells you some hints how to play one. 30 bard is very similar to 25 KC, except for a few feats you exchange.

16 charisma is all you need. I went with 18 on my Bard/ KC because I wanted an even 30 after buffs, and because 1 extra mass haste is 2.5 minutes of sheer fucking bliss, I never have ran out in a party with that amount and I like to go fast. I don't usually leave home without haste.

For the RDD, I'm not a really skilled RDD person since I've never played one. I personally don't know the lore well enough to feel confident with one. I'd assume strength based and RDD gets a total bonus of +4. I'd recommend starting with 17 strength, filling out the rest of your stats as you like and then get con. Get at least 16. Put all your points into strength leveling up. You start with an odd number so you don't have to use an epic feat on greater strength. With no epic character class, you'll only get 4 epic feats. Strength this way still gives you 28.

17 starting str and 16 ending con, got it! Easily done. What sort of umd should it be looking at from bard though? I really don't know what kind of items are out there and what is a useful value range.

Shadowfiend wrote:

Do you need a high cha for a decent pve combat cleric, or can you do good without it?

I don't see any mechanical advantage to having high charisma on a cleric.

Uhh......unless I'm missing something.

That would be Divine Shield/Might.

Don't know the answer though, but I imagine a decent CHA would be nice for tanking bosses and such.

A caster cleric does fine in PvE I found.

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