I'm not sure if this fits within the ongoing thread and I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the Improving Amia forum. But here goes.

I think it would be a good idea to have an open, constructive discussion about the identity of the server (this has been discussed before) and moreso about the role of players, DM's and dev's (collectively) within that identity. Let's keep things constructive, please. If you have a view on things, do make a suggestion of how this could be reached in practice.

The Server
I think the server has gone trough quite a transition, for better or for worse. When I arrived, it was a server packed with all sorts of exotic concepts, and inter-faction and inter-personal conflict was energetic and widespread. Having previously played on a very conservative server, it was quite an eye-opener for me. And I think this was also the strength of Amia as compared to servers such as Arelith. However, it also lead to a lot of silliness and nonsense. I honestly do understand the current move towards a more regulated environment as a measure of quality control.

What I did find both interesting and frustrating (and I still do) is that the server lacks a defined concept and theme. Especially for a non-canon island, it's a rather bland and standard d&d setting. Why not a desert setting? A jungle setting? Or an archipelago of tiny islands fought over by two or three major settlements - in other words an island hopping conflict? Why not a stronger emphasis on the naval aspect? Instead we're left with a wide variety of different environments, most of which without any geographical, conceptual or thematic connection.

However, I do see how it came to be this way. Amia was a almost-everything-goes server. This is changing in concept, but the server environment isn't changing with it. I would recommend some critical reflection on what the core theme or atmosphere of the setting is supposed to be, and to alter the IG environment accordingly.

The DM's
I have an ambiguous view on the DM team as a whole - and also as individuals. On one hand they wield the power to move things. On the other hand, they wield the power to move things. As it's currently set up, everything has to go via the DM team. And the DM team has its hands full. And when they do have time, they prefer to focus on their own plots. Which leaves it hard for player-lead initiatives to be realized.

I think the best case of DMing I've seen on the server (though I wasn't even involved in it) was the Careigh/Orcus plot. Though the Orcus cult offered a measure of context, it was all about the dynamic conflict between the cultists and the "allies". My character went nowhere near it, but people were talking about the epic battles, the feints, the politics, the betrayals, the camaraderie, the victories an defeats. These stories were written by characters and players, not by a DM. And this is how it should be.

The following is going to sting, but I feel it has to be said:

No NPC or plot you create will ever approach the dynamics and level of depth and quality that PC interaction yields. These are all characters with different personalities, motivations and agendas behind them, and many of them months if not years of carefully cultivated relationships (positive and negative) behind them. What kind of creature could you possible create that can match that?

So here's my suggestion to DM's. Do not be Fungineers. It's an arrogant and misplaced concept and title that strongly implies you solely carry the means and responsibility to create fun. Let go of the idea of applying tabletop storytelling to a persistent online environment. You will either end up creating a railroad plot in order to maintain oversight and quality, or let go and watch things spiral down the drain (*cough* Arcanum * cough*). Don't get me wrong, having a metaplot is a great idea. Advancing it little by little, while always reacting to PC actions, is challenging but keeps the story going. And there's nothing wrong with a bit of a dungeon romp now and then.

But don't be Fungineers. Be Facilitators. You are here to Facilitate player initiative. You are here to Facilitate (and encourage) PC conflict and evolution. Is a PC trying to start up a new faction? Throw your weight behind them. Especially if the faction could fill an interesting niche. Especially if it can challenge the status quo of existing factions. Does a PC have elements in their history that a story can be built on? Do it. Does a character want to make a high-risk high-reward venture? Get in on it. Create plots and events that pit characters against characters, not characters against "red-glowy-things".

Do this, and I promise you'll get far more satisfaction from your efforts than you would from just stringing players along with your plot. You'll watch your support and actions ripple out from individual PC's to other PC's to other PC's and affect the server for years to come, in ways no time-travelling mage or demonic invasion ever can or will.

Players
The opposite side of the coin above is for players. Don't stand around waiting for things to happen. We're all guilty of this, and I'm no different. It's a waste of your time. Get away from the crossroads. Create stories of your own. Take initiatives. Go on crazy adventures. Engage in PvP. Kidnap paladins. Tickle pale masters. Bomb Tarkuul. Egg the Justicar. Press buttons. Flail randomly. See what happens.

Your character is as interesting and valuable as he is interesting and valuable to other players. Nobody's the protagonist. Long-standing players, mentor new characters and set up tasks (and conflicts). New characters/players, challenge the old guard. Stagnation is the death of anything, and in the system I propose players are responsible for creating the fun. Players are responsible for creating the plots.

Devs
Let it go.
I know you put in a hundred hours in properly getting those placeables set up in that little corner of the server.
And it took another hundred hours getting it IG.
Don't feel bad when someone randomly blows it up 5 minutes into the game.

You're not here to craft the perfect world. You're here to emulate a changing world. Nothing that is IG should be sacrosanct and immune to change. There should never, ever, ever be the idea amongst players, DM's or Dev's that a certain area cannot and will not be changed - for example Cordor, held up as the "server hub" or "starting area". It suspends disbelief, and it creates a static environment. And things stagnate, no matter how many new coats of paint they get. If I wanted to have no affect on the game world, I'd go play Skyrim.

So that's it. I hope I wasn't too crass, but constructive.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

I almost find it hard to believe, but I am in perfectly accordance with everything that has been said from DMs and below. Exponentially.


I feel the server is trying to be something that is not, trying to take on elements that compose the MMO games. The mentality behind them and how they should be played, while virtual RPing is a completely different category of its own that just happens to sometimes involve a large number of players.
This is something that can be seen in the new growing mentality of culling and cutting parts of the server to stop the spread - as if the spread was some sort of anathema of evil that is ought to be exterminated. The character spread is not wrong. Focusing efforts in cities - the ideas of the hubs? That is what I regard as wrong, and that is what makes me feel like the server is following a set path and we players are simply disregarded, in a game where change should be entirely dictated by the players. it's a reactive world, and we are playing this here and now because when we push a block it moves back - when you press a button it clicks. When you punch a guy it punches back - this simple philosophy, this reaction is what defines the difference between a MMO and a Role Playing game. We play entirely for the reaction, and when the reaction is disregarded, when we realize that we are following a script for things that are going to happen one way or another... is when you aren't playing a role game anymore.

You are playing just another soulless massive multiplayer online game.

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Womans in your town

Two things I learnt in Manufacturing.

Always ask 'Why?'

Never trust anyone to do something for you if you can possibly help it. They will inevitably do it wrong, or not how you expected them to.

To paraphrase Gandhi, be the roleplayer you wish to see (no matter who you are).

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Jys'zyne Do'larn

Man, this account is over 10 years old. Where do I get my old man beard?

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

Just comment since Caraigh vs Orcus cult was brought up.

I enjoyed it a huge amount, it was one of my favorite things and I regret that I had a real life to leave to. The method I used on that place was letting everyone make the story for me. I'd introduce something new and everyone, right or wrong made their ideas. One side would be right the other wrong. Bad guys would sometimes make the curse weaker while good guys made it worse, all because of player interpretation and acting on it.

I enjoyed as people struggled to make sense of the NPCs, who was good who was evil. In a place where the good NPC guys did stuff that made the good PCs squeamish to the point they were ready to fight them. It was a culture that people slowly figured out as being different than the high magic Island of Amia.

I'm thankful other DMs were able to keep the place alive. I do still regret that I never was able to return or make another plot like that due to my lack of game time. One day I hope to find more time to make something similar.

I also know some hated it, as I could not destroy hunting areas and make the place entirely pure. The theme and Island just is not like that. The PC efforts certainly improved it vastly, but a threat always lingers. I know some people despised that.

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OMG THIS! Yes a thousand times! Thank you Elorathall.

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Iim'mur'ss - Grandmaster Shadowdancer / Aaralyn - Diplomat / Oleander - Toxic Desert Flower

Oi! I mean amen Elorthall!

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Nothin matters berk. Don't you see? Even so a poor sod shoudn't go hungry

Yes, see what happens. . . When I read that, I hear it in my head in the context of someone threatening you. "Talk about my mom again, see what happens"

It makes me sad to say, but I wouldn't advise this to any players. We tried to cause some trouble a while back, stir things up without DM involvement. Really cause some interesting conflict for the server. It pissed -everyone- off OOCly, because when it came time to pvp, we won, knowing that if we lost to a horde of good aligned characters, we might very well be faced with perma death. Of course many didn't like how we went about things, however, nobody (and I mean zero people really) gave us a chance to grow. And yes, we had awesome plans. Additionally, anything involving cities (and bombing them) has to include a DM presence, with a high chance of perma death. So, careful.

Advice for DM team: Don't permanently ban players for accidentally using exploits. In fact, try to move away from perma bans altogether, if it's not really warranted (and many times it's not in my humble opinion). Try to put personal feelings aside and think about the good of the server. A lot of good people have been banned for minor offenses.

Advice for players: Be open to conflict, all aspects of it. Consider you might lose and suffer consequences. That's not to say all players are guilty of this. Just a lot.

Consider it only my personal constructive critic:

There are far better ways to stir up the conflict without even getting close to the PvP.
If the latter pisses a lot of people off - perhaps it should be better to OOCly ask if this is the way they want to do things to begin with. Communication always skips a lot of unnecessary problems between players.
But it's not my intent to devolve this topic into Let'um PvP - everything about the topic that should be said has been said.

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Womans in your town

Unless I miss my guess , Permanent bans barring very severe offenses do not occur for a first time offense. I support them wholehartedly for cases of repeated offenses of the server's rules or otherwise more serious breaches, much as I do not like having to go that far.

Like all things in life, a balance is necessary. The vast majority of the focus should be on facilitating, as Elor put it, and simply being ready, in the client, to field any RP that happens. The secondary purpose falls to the city leaders. The NPC leadership in a settlement need to be played as though they were the DM's own PCs. They need to have ambitions, personalities, and flaws. They need to be constantly advancing their agenda each and every day.

Justicar Cystana should be constantly holding court, pushing recruitment, devising plans and goals, and -advancing- them. The same with Archmage Mherun. Every night, performing experiments, advancing the agenda. The high clergy of the major Amian faiths need to hold congregations and sermons, and push tasks and agendas on the faithful that attend. The Shadowborne family should be seeking out business opportunities, not waiting for PCs to come to them. When was the last time a PC got a letter from an NPC out of the blue, rather than having to prompt it? The personalities of the island feel very robotic, responding to input without any spark of motivation of their own. I realize that this takes a massive time commitment. Kobra did this -very- well with Cordor during the war. The Cordor NPCs were more accessible than the PCs that were supposed to be running the place! It needs to be like that with every settlement, largest to smallest, all the time. Have meetings between the DM's handful of NPCs, and have them be spontaneous. Don't predetermine how the negotiations go behind the scenes. Play them like you would a very influential PC. Some of my favorite moments as a spy or assassin would be catching two NPCs in a private dialogue in an office, that was never announced as an event, or sparked by player input. It was just organic roleplay.

Yes, it is a huge time commitment, but that's how PW DMing is done right. Some of us still remember the "golden age" of Neverwinter where citystate factions on the large PWs could reach 20+ people, with 4-5 DMs on at a time facilitating the conflict and intrigue between them. 20 vs. 20 PvP battles over a chunk of territory or resource were a sight to see. We probably will never be able to muster that kind of raw manpower on Amia, but the principles remain the same. Provide compelling (or awful!) personalities the PCs can bounce off of and interact with, and don't mind investing in, knowing the DM isn't just going to randomly stop being available for a month. DMs should be held to a very high standard of activity, positive impact, and general player satisfaction if they wish to retain their input in server direction.

In the end, it's really not hard to keep that kind of activity up, because it's -fun- and rewarding. You'll get the occasional DM that is over-attached to their NPC, but is worth the trade when it's done consistently.

Here are my thoughts:

As a DM: 'Fungineering' is what we do, and that includes facilitating. They are not mutually exclusive. We do generally agree though, the name is a bit... Disney? I think it may just change soon. Back to the point though, Every single one of us has a PM box. Please, for the love of whatever you hold dearest, use them to help us help you and your initiatives. We have some protocols on faction stuff, and I know Letum has an amazing initiative going to help us better track and cater to more personal-style plots.

As it was brought up, we're also part rules enforcement. Until we have a player base that can be trusted with policing itself, that is unfortunately part of our job. That sometimes means coming down hard on those that break the rules. We won't be pulling bans any time soon, or ceasing our activities as a whole. It is your choice to stay or leave in the manner that you wish. If you'd like to see us make good on changes we've told you are coming, and in a timely manner, a breather from things would be welcome so that we can better focus on them. That may be bit much to ask, but, maybe for a Valentine's Day gift? I am not at all joking.

As a Dev: I don't think non-devs understand the long hours that go into area creation and just how many tasks there are to do. Judging by the player counts on both servers though, it certainly is appreciated! Amia does an amazing job of keeping areas fluid. You blow something up? Awesome. We'll try real hard to accommodate it in the next update, and heck, you may even get a DC out of it from the DM overseeing it! We celebrate player initiatives -almost- as much as the DMs do and are happy to help! That's partly why we are experimenting with an amazing dynamic update system!

However, if it is just a spur of the moment thing, oh please. You want -us- to put our projects that benefit the -server- as a whole on hold, in order to cater to your selfish desire to leave a smoldering crater in X location because "I'm a level 30 badass PWN@GE! Lulz. FEAR ME, NPCs of X" ...? No. Not going to put my stuff on hold because your toon wants to reenact Slayers. 'Dragon Slave! teehee!'

We're not here to create a perfect world, nor do we claim to be, as that isn't fun to the majority of folks. We're here to keep things dynamic, and we do better than most other servers that are still around and kicking. I mean, you're still here, aren't you? If what we're doing isn't up to your personal standards, it remains your choice to stay or leave in the manner that you wish.

*Important post note: Use of the word 'You' is not specific to any individual(s) in particular.*

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Ninja, couldn't have asked for a better post tbh. The NPCs on amia are sorely plastic.

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bad man

Dusty, with all the due respect and reverence for the team that I ever had, this expression right here is the ultimate reason I find it harder and harder to come back. When faced with what seems to be an increasing number of dissenting players, your(and often the Team's) response has been to literally tell them to get with your opinion or get gone. That is just... all kinds of the wrong thing to say right now with our playerbase bleeding out as it is. There is no offer of hope in saying "PM us, we'll listen" when in the same breath you say "we're not going to change anything we ourselves don't want to."

If it is still in majority opinion that it's "your server to sail, sink or swim," well, please don't be surprised when you're the only ones left aboard. A great deal of what you guys do and have done is great and to be praised, but it's...it's things like this that really make me feel like the server I basically grew up on is being manhandled into something else.

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I have to agree. It seems like DMs have been popping in to defend or speak about very small parts of this bigger issue we're all raising, while ignoring the main points being brought up. It's frustrating and demoralizing to see posts like Dusty's, frankly. -No one- is standing here saying the DMs should go away, or stop doing their jobs. What almost everyone in this thread is begging for is for them to be around -more often.- But this is what got a response? Meh.

Below are my own thoughts on things. Sorry for the long post. I hope that some of the team can come in and touch on the larger issues around server culture, the lack of time DMs are spending in the client, and proposed solutions. As it's been said countless times: I'm not here to shit on you guys or the jobs you're doing. You're great, you're what makes this game appealing versus the run of the mill MMO.

Server Spread

The “Newbie” Argument

The server spread has been on everyone’s minds for awhile. While I understand the challenges it can cause, I think the issue has been widely overblown and has a much more simple solution than the ones currently proposed. This is an old-ass game. The simple fact is, we aren’t going to get a whole lot of new players no matter what sort of changes we make to the server unless we do -dedicated- advertising and promotion of some sort. Thus, the emphasis put on new players in a lot of designing solutions and discussion among the staff/playerbase becomes a straw man argument - new players are a huge minority. I believe we should be focusing on making our existing community as vibrant and happy as possible, and THAT is what is going to get us new players. People don’t just stumble on to NWN anymore, really - they can’t with Gamespy down. Amia gets around through word of mouth. Folks pull in their RP friends from different games and in life. I would say from my own experiences with different groups on the server is that most people find RP using OOC means- Skype, gmail, whatever. If they’re not doing that, then they just go to the places they know people hang out, and usually they’ll find somebody.

Area Culling

Now, places being empty does happen. If I haven’t already made a date with someone or the “usual” places are empty, I’m at a complete loss of what to do. There’s no one to interact with and no real way to find them. Cutting down on server spread ISN’T going to help this problem, and here’s why: One day I logged on because a whole lot of Cordor folks were around, and I needed to talk to a few PCs. I wandered to every single district of Cordor, checked the Market hall, Nomad’s, everything. Found nobody, and there were 15+ PCs on that I knew had a very high chance of being in the city. Even if we took away everything but Kohl, Tark, and Cordor, there are still a huge amount of indoor areas that are basically isolated from each other. You could never find those 15+ Cordor PCs because they all upped and went to get noodles at Okappa’s, and why would you think to go there? Hardly anyone does. Or they all went to the Rusty Hoe. Or there’s a fashion crisis and everyone ran to Arwen’s.

A lot of what makes Amia great is its variety. The areas are beautifully designed. Folks want to take advantage of that. I think that’s a good thing (within reason, of course.) I know it’s already been proposed and mostly accepted, but the idea of introducing an “RP Advertiser” wand could go a long way to fixing these problems. Sure, it’s OOC, but sometimes that stuff has to be sacrificed for convenience, and in this age we want to focus on convenience. Having an option to advertise your PC’s current location would foster RP much more easily than forcibly cutting out areas that still see activity (which, while it hasn’t been done yet, kinda seems like where things are going.)

DM Attention

DM attention will naturally draw player activity. However, DMs actually need to run plots that are accessible revolving around the primary hubs to have a reason for people to go there. Right now, none of the cities have running plots or very much DM attention at all. A lot of that is because, it seems, a large portion (8 out of 16 by my count) of our DMs do not run plots or use the DM client at all. That’s half the team that isn’t assigned to any areas (or are and simply do not show up), while active DMs are spread thin over several areas. This increases burnout, player frustration, etc. Inactive team members are not being culled, and new blood is not being added. That’s caused, from a player’s perspective, a serious stall IG. No DMs, no plots, no conflict, less engaging, meaningful RP. To fix this, we either have to A) get more DMs or B) empower players to be more independent. The suggestion I have is fairly radical and balances the two, but hear me out.

“Storyteller DMs”

These could be players with generally good conduct (no severe rule infractions) who have a great mind for story. They will not have all of the same powers as a DM, such as approving/denying requests or setting server tone. All of their events will have to be cleared with the “General” DMs before quest start. This will allow the team to promote people who have great storytelling skills, but aren’t necessarily fit for the full DM title and the authority that comes with it. It could also be a rotating system with a limited number of spots, which can be applied for by the general public with a very detailed event proposal. If the proposal is good and they’re not a complete dick, let them DM it. Then give the next person a shot. I understand it is a risk, but no risk no reward. It will help to ease the tension between DMs and players by blurring that line a little and giving players more of a DM perspective, if only for a short time. It could also lead to surprise discoveries that certain people make amazing DMs, but were not noticed by the team for whatever reason. There’s also the idea of enthusiasm - people will apply who have the time to commit and the drive to do it.

As it is, the server culture is stagnating badly. The problem I’ve been having lately is this: there are few DM events, thus few things to talk about/act on IC. Without DMs, players can’t make their own story because they literally can’t make any impact on the world without DM facilitation. The only thing that we really can do on our own is social RP, and while that’s entertaining, external conflict is what drives all good stories, and these “Storyteller” DMs could make the server feel truly alive again.

NPCs and Players

There has been a recent trend towards this that I think should be expanded upon, as NinjaClarinet suggested. NPCs like Kobra’s Lawson and Nihilus’ Amon were hugely successful and popular because they are NPCs with power to shape server story that actually built relationships with PCs. This can really help to facilitate player understanding of a settlement’s culture; for example, if one of Cys’tana’s close advisors came out often to talk with PCs, it could allow them to: build relationships and influence; speak directly and organically to an NPC rather than relying so heavily on forum posts, PMs, or token appearances; and disrupt the notion that NPCs are simply DM tools occasionally toted out to enforce the will of the team over the efforts of PCs. The reason people play these games is because our environment is supposed to be ALIVE, which is not something that has been applied to modern games. It’s one of our very few draws. Capitalize on it.

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Actually, that is exactly my point, Dark. For some reason, at some point in time, folks started to enjoy believing this is somehow a Democracy. It isn't.

Maybe it is because we ask for opinions, have polls, or bother to care at all to even ask, unlike other servers. In return, we receive all forms of advice, criticism, snide player chats, you name it. We take the good and the bad -constantly-. What is seen as constructive is taken to heart and acted upon, what isn't, isn't.

I will not sugar coat this. No one here is keeping you here if the team is as horrible as is suggested. No one here is barring your return or your stay. If you stay, play by our rather fair rules. That's all we ask. If not, we're sorry we weren't what you were looking for.

Edit:
You are telling us to "change or else!" Frankly, I call the bluff. If it were intended to be constructive, it wouldn't be phrased as an ultimatum and I am sorry if that opinion disappoints you.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

The problem with that sentiment Dusty is that we have a lot invested here and there's more to the server than just the DMs, and frankly we have been relegated to primarily playing among ourselves for the better part of forever. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, but then clamps are coming down on the avenue we've been forced down and we voice our discontent, and instead of sitting down to recognize our cries for a better tomorrow we're shot down with a "don't like it leave" response. Well damn man, we love Amia and that's why we're fighting for it. Just because you are DMs doesn't mean you love it more, just means you have more innate power and responsibility to it.


We've come up with quite literally countless feasible suggestions to help invigorate the server and inject more life into the stale air our lungs are screaming of. Please, we don't want to fight, we just want you to look things over, sit down and think critically over it. Take a moment to consider the careful tightrope we're on right now, the player base has voiced quite loudly with many respectable and well established players that something is wrong and that the current steps aren't fixing the issue.

Instead of defensively fending off what may be perceived as jabs (some to a lesser degree may be jabs) give it some thought. Why are we so passionately, sometimes to the point of vitriol demanding change. Why if this isn't a real issue hasn't it gone away?

Please don't show us the door so coldly, it's tactless when we're just as much the lifeblood and devotees of the server as you are.

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bad man

If your response to criticism and suggestions for improvement is to huddle in your sandbox and yell "This is not a democracy!" then you have lost the spirit of pen and paper and DMing.

That... is not at all what was meant by my post. In no way did I phrase anything I said as an ultimatum, there was no inherent threat. People are being pretty damn reasonable in this thread, including myself. We have been asking for clarification and dialogue on several key points that are being consistently overlooked or responded to with, in your case, extreme defensiveness.

I am not an argumentative player. I'm not an asshole. I've been around here for ten years, been on the DM team myself. I don't hate you guys, or think you're shit at your jobs. My post was extremely constructive, and the fact that it was met with that response... surprises me. Us vs them mentality goes both ways.

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...

You know what? I had a post written up about how this emphasizes what I said about BoB's posts and attitude, and about how I'm growing concerned/angry/disgusted with how things are being handled. But, again, I feel as if it's not going to matter. As if the voices of dissent are going unheard regardless of what is said to us, the players.

The other thread may not have been so bad had the PR been better. Alarm was answered with a laissez-faire attitude. That's not how you run things. I suggest reading what OpenTheRift and Alanna said. It's spot on. People have been complaining (rightfully so) for months now. Months. Why does it seem like it gets nowhere?

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

It never hurts to let loose the reins gradually and see what happens. We should all be willing to admit we are cooperative storytellers and enjoyers of the craft, player and DM alike.

As a Dev now I just say we do things to try to make the "static elements of your world as dynamic as we can without being DMs."

I figure that, since Alanna put that post up here, I'll bring out the post I had in response to it from where I had it originally. As a forewarning, this is in no way meant as hostile or demanding as some things appear to be getting construed to be.

Figured I'd go ahead and post my opinions and the like on each of these points, actually. At least on some of it.



A rather large thing I've noticed, myself, when it comes to DM attention is an overabundance of mega-scale events. This isn't meant as an attack, by far, mind you. But almost every bit of event related attention I've come to see on the server has been on mega-scale events that (mostly) appear to revolve around a "Creature of the Week" sort of deal. The one experience I actually had with one of these events left me without any real attention to what I was RPing, as it was so chaotic and overpowered by the insane number of level 30s involved. Eventually, I was kinda removed from the event (along with a number of others) due to the IC officials taking over or something along those lines. I'm unsure about others, but I also didn't even get anything out of it. Now, I know that's pretty bad to say, as I shouldn't expect stuff aside from the RP and development. But as a whole, there wasn't even much of that, at all. No real RP, no development, etc. As a first big event, it has also rather shaken my trust in the large scale events that follow. I will admit I try to avoid them due to that experience.

Overall, yeah. The big focus of events and DM attention on the server appears to be very focused on that of epic levels (mostly the level 30s) and just large events that drag in anyone and everyone it can. I do understand the want to include folks, but there is definitely a point when events just get far too chaotic with the number of people involved. So, on that note, I feel that there should really be a much larger focus on smaller scale events that also cater to low levels, and even new players especially. Or even players that just get little to no attention. It doesn't really hurt to place caps on the level and number of players that should be involved in any given event. There will always be players that end up feeling that they are being slighted for whatever reason for a lack of involvement in such events, so it's just better to do it and give more love to the little guys. With that very same thing in mind, it also comes down to DC distribution for various in-game occurances. Some players seem to have a nearly infinite amount (not really) of DCs due to the amount of attention they've recieved. Then there are those who play for months or years and are barely managing to get any. This seems to come from the issue of the spread, focus, and even activity of DMs as a whole.



Honestly, I see this sort of thing as a great solution for everything mentioned above. I've seen it done on other servers (Apprentice DMs) and it's worked out rather great. Of course, it's not to say that every good RPer capable of storytelling should be brought on as such, but it can go a long way. Of course, there should also be restrictions as Alanna mentioned. The way that I've seen it work in the past has been primarily due to placing DM event requests to be done. Just a brief overview (or in depth if someone wants) of the sort of event/plot they wish to run. Explain a general idea of the level range and party size, similar to the recommended party size and level explained on D&D modules. Then, even after everything is done, they place reports with the event they ran and major stuff that occurred within the event. It keeps a general level of freedom with the storytelling, while still keeping them on a leash that can slowly be loosened, and even removed eventually as they show what they can do.

Additionally, on the idea of how D&D modules are, DMs as a whole could do another thing I've seen done a number of times. Scheduling full on modules that exist within the game world. Multi-sessioned modules that could even spark new characters. DMs would put up said ideas and people would make posts that they are interested. There would be slots to keep it from getting too full and the DM would fill those slots as players post their interest. I feel this could easily spawn a great deal of RP and senarios to the server. Especially for anyone seeking to make new characters, or even new players, as they would get involved in such a plot with a brand new character, exclusively, and then be able to enter the full Amia game world once the module is completed. Through such, they'd carry their own backstory, plus the experiences from such modules. This would be great for DMs as well, as they'd be able to tell stories that they may have that otherwise wouldn't work for higher levels.


While there were other points made here, I feel that I put my opinions on the things that felt more pressing, to me. If I sounded at all hostile or similar, I deeply apologize. That's not the intent, at all, of these points. More just a bundle of constructive criticism from what I've experience both here and on other servers.

Thanks for reading this long post, however.

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This isn't a fight, OTR. This is clearly a communication issue:

This 'issue' pops up all the time, from before I was DMing, until now. Slowly and surely we keep changing. Change takes time, and the changes are (more often than not) for the better. Like all of you, we on the Team like playing too. Don't forget that. We're also well aware that we are in a better position to do something about things when they go awry, (and they have before and will again) and not one of us forgets that. We listen to you all. Every party chat when we're top side, every PM you send, every forum post you make... Everything.

One thing that I notice, from the top down perspective is that the much less vocal majority seems to be willing to wait and see where the changes already in progress, lead to, before they will make a strong fuss over it one way or another. A very vocal Minority, would rather not and jumps on anything constantly any time they see a chance to somehow 'win' an argument on the internet.

I truly don't hold it against anyone to be vocal. I used to be when I used to be an 'Angry Hin Player.' Good stuff can come out of that, such as we can clear up communication issues and adjust things that are causing problems. Heck, sometimes you'll help us catch things we missed or things that are starting to fall through the cracks, so by no means stop!

However, the reason I, and many other DMs, are willing to highlight the door is that we are every bit as invested as you are. Not more, not less, but equal. Every time you use the argument that we should "do this or else we'll leave," I will call that bluff every time. It is the single most arrogant argument any member of the community can make. It means that you weren't as well invested as you had thought and we as a Team had hoped.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

Edit: nevermind. Not worth it.

This really escalated quickly. While I originally had no intention to post in this topic, one way or another, I feel it should be locked for a few hours to give folks (players, DMs and Devs alike) a chance to calm down, think things over then continue the discussion.

Alright. I'm going to open this back up again. I just advise that if you do feel getting worked up (any one posting, player or member of the team) to simply hit back and step away for a bit. I'll try to get on to an answer to players concerns/questions though but if there are any that don't want to voice their issues publicly then you can PM one of us (I at least, am happy to receive em)

That said, commence posting!

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Signature by Maryn! <3 I am also seen as DM Snuffles.

I think some good points have been brought up. I especially liked Ninja's post about the need for NPC's to be dynamic and proactive, and Alanna's suggestion of having 'guest' storyteller DM's is an excellent one worth giving a shot - provided it is properly defined what they can and can't do.

Again, let's try and keep things constructive here. Letting things get sidetracked into debate about one particular thing isn't going to get us anything. This isn't about what may or may not be wrong, this is about solutions.

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Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon.
"Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over."
Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance.
"Sol Invictus"

I haven't followed the threadnaught that the other thread has become. May or may not try to catch up on it as time allows. However Nihilus' intention in locking this thread to let people cool a bit was a good one, and now that some time has passed, and I've read through the posts above, I'd like to make a post of my own for all parties (players, DMs, devs, lurkers, everyone) to digest, before I unlock the thread in the morning when I wake up. If the others don't get to it before I do.

Speaking as a player, as a DM and as a Dev, I agree with about 90-95% of everything Elorathall, NinjaClarinet and AlannaMolov said. While (as most of you know) NinjaClarinet and I are good friends even outside of Amia, and AlannaMolov is of course a member of the Dev team, therefore it may not seem a shocker that I agree with them (mostly)... I can't really think of any time off hand where I've ever agreed with Elorathall on anything before (sorry man... but hey, we agree on something now! ) I also agree with the manner in which they brought forth these points (by and large). I think it shows the concern they have for the server; concern that we all share whether or not we share their perspectives on matters. I do think that tensions are high, as Nihilus pointed out.

To expand on a few specific points:

I do disagree with this (shocker, I'm sure!) however my disagreement is based purely on timing. I whole heartedly agree with you that our goal should be to provide as dynamic and changing of a world as possible. 100%. Where my disagreement comes in is, as I mentioned, that now is not the correct time to make that move.

NWN is old. Much of Amia is old. Both have held up remarkably well, all things considered and for those of us who grew up with Baldur's Gate, Fallout, Planescape, Shadowrun or even earlier titles, NWN is still shiny in comparison, and so is Amia. Especially with the visual upgrades thanks to hak content and mechanical upgrades thanks to scripting/database/NWNX witchcraft. And I'm not tooting my own horn here; I've done next to nothing with haks, databse or NWNX, and still haven't done as much scripting as those who came before me, to lay the groundwork of the server we have today.

And that last point is why I disagree that the time for a fully fluid world is "now". Most of the groundwork we have today was laid by Disco (mad respect) probably somewhere around the 2007 date range. That's coming up on 10 years old soon. And while he worked wonders with scripting and database work, he didn't have the tools with NWNX that we enjoy now. Ten years later, we have a mass of unused or slightly-broken scripting, AI that's (lets face it) a little clunky, server instability issues, a smaller (I wouldn't say dwindling, but smaller than 10 years ago sure) playerbase spread across two servers, etc.

I definitely agree that what has been suggested by Elorathall in regards to development focus should be our goal BUT, I think it is equally as important that we re-establish firm footing, tack on that safety line, before we start shifting the mountain while we're climbing it.


Having just brought in two more RL friends to the Amian fold just a few short weeks ago, I absolutely agree that this is how we're getting new players, currently, not through random people showing up to give Amia a try on their own accord. My friends didn't even know NWN existed, much less our specific server.

One of the duties that I intended/intend for the Dev team (I -think- I posted it in the "announcement" post of what the team would be) is definitely to start some advertisement. Hey Alanna... look who just volunteered! But in all seriousness that is definitely the way to go, and something I would like the Dev team to start working on; get some graphics done up, some "promotional videos" with IG footage (yes I'm going to shamelessly flaunt the Boneyard spawn-sequence), maybe some of those "here's all the different armor appearances you can equip your character with, as shown in 60 seconds" videos, all sorts of stuff is possible.


Perhaps there's a misconception behind the theory behind the so called "area culling" and if that's the case (especially if that's the case among my own Dev team) then that's totally my fault and I do apologize.

Unless we "culled" 3/4 of the server, get rid of rental housing, faction bases and most of the interior areas... there will always be places to "hide" and/or always times where you can't find anyone. And culling that much would not be fun for anyone. It'd be stupid, and that's why the theory behind area culling is not to make people bump into each other more. No, the theory behind removing some of the "less attended" areas isn't because players rarely frequent them, it's because players rarely invest in them. *holds up hands* Before you break out the arguments that yes, you and your characters did, hear me out.

Many of you might not know that I was nearly turned down from the DM team when my name was originally brought up as a possible DM, due to being rather vocal when I first started playing on Amia. Vocal about how the DM team never gave me the time of day, or the few times that they did they never took into account the work my character and his burgeoning faction had been putting into Guldorand when they weren't looking. I was fed up with my RP going stagnant, the things I wanted my character to progress with being cockblocked, and I wasn't shy about saying that I felt the DM team needed to take their heads out of their asses. Sound familiar to anyone?

Now obviously I did get onto the DM team, because I actually basically shelved that character, giving up on ever attaining his goals in little ol' Guldorand, and made a new character where I knew there to be an abundance of activity and DM attention already. Lo and behold, I started having fun. I got in on the fringe of some events (was still too low level at the time to really get into the meat and potatoes, which is another topic), saw that the DMs maybe weren't as bad as I thought, and did some soul-searching and reflection. Thankfully it was after this period of reflection, when I did calm my tits and start to figure things out a bit, that my name was tendered for the DM team. There was still some opposition from those who were worried that I still felt as I did when I first started playing and felt that I held a grudge against the team (despite my reassurances to the contrary). But the ultimately gave me a chance and I am where I am today.

Why seemingly tangent into this story? Culling areas isn't about funneling players, it's about funneling DMs! Lets say I'd chosen to stat my time on Amia focusing on Khem (the most obvious example of culling atm) instead of Guldorand, both places with little to no DM attention these days, well I'd be in the very same place that I was with Guldorand; feeling stagnant, ignored, unvalued and generally displeased with Amia, because there isn't enough DM attention to go around, to make that area the living, breathing place that it deserves to be (as NinjaClarinet's post talked about). If we kept every settlement and region in place that is in the module today, we would need 3/4 of our playerbase to suddenly start DMing, in order to make every location, every setting, truly alive.

So I guess in a round-about way it is about funneling players, but not for the purpose of making them bump into each other. It's about spreading already limited DM time and attention between less locations, to improve the quality of setting of the locations that the greater majority of players and DMs alike, have a vested interest in. And no it's not meant to solve all our problems in and of itself, it's one cog in the machine.



This is getting to be something of a long post, I hope you'll bear with me and continue reading. As an "intermission", allow me to change the pace slightly.

Did you know that in the last month alone...

• We've had two (2) instances of people blowing up OOCly IG to the point where players have requested the DMs step in.
• Two (2) instances of confirmed ban dodging (for repeat and serious offenses).
• Six (6) PvP incidents that have been brought to the attention of the DM team (and no, those aren't only the infamous shifter group).
• In the 2014 year there were approximately 2000 posts in the section of the DM forums for such incidents.

This isn't trivia to espouse a stance of "woe is us, the poor DM team". My point here is actually this: think of all that time spent on those 2000 forum posts, spent talking to several varying sides of a single incident, spent trying to find a "favorable" resolution (if it even exists). Put DM burnout aside, put frustrations aside... that's a shitload of time that we are willing to invest in Amia, but aren't able to devote to you IG, because we've been asked to mediate or otherwise get involved.

So my point here is, if you want to see more DM time spent IG bringing the world to life? Don't lean on the team as much, try to resolve some problems yourself (as some of you already do) in an equitable and adult fashion. Only turn to us to mediate when no other resolution presents itself, rather than as the first reaction. You'll thank us for being around more, we'll thank you for letting us get back to the DMing we love, and the server will be a more vibrant place for both our increased enjoyment.



"And now back to your regularly scheduled programming."

I also wanted to highlight something that Terallis touched on, not so much at any specific point (hence no quote) but rather the "underlying theme" of a good chunk of his post, I think. Everyone wants their character to be special (myself included) and have the limelight, be the hero, save the day (why not?). Now right now, that's pretty tough with such a downswing in DM activity actually IG. I get that. When attention comes a bit more sporadically, everyone wants to latch on to what they can. I really do get that.

Once things pick back up though, once we're able to breath some life back into those ol' sticks of NPCs, I think it's really important to remember that there is (or will be) enough attention to go around. Even if you the player has a good idea about something, but your character just finished figuring out the last puzzle, or sluthing out the last mystery, or coming up with the last brilliant defensive tactic... why not let someone else take the reigns, let them see it through to the end.

Now I recognize this often isn't practical with the larger events and plots, ones that involve whole cities and the like. Ya, things are naturally going to filter upwards to the ones making the decisions in whatever location it is, the movers'n'shakers, in such events. That's IC and well, that's what makes sense. But when we start seeing smaller scale events, for smaller numbers of people, spread the wealth a bit. If you starred in saving the merchant's daughter from the orcs that attacked the lone caravan last night, let someone else (or even refer someone else even if they aren't right there right that minute) get the spotlight. Tonight it's searching the haunted crypt for the great-great-grandmother's diamond necklace for the nobel-daughter's upcoming wedding? Well... I was actually already asked to (make something up that keeps your PC true to his character but gives you an out even!), but I hear that my buddy over there might be free to help you.

It's the little things. But like I say, we need to get those smaller events going more frequently first (and generated from our existing NPCs to flesh them out as much as possible, more often than not, as suggested above!)


This is... one of the things I agree with that 90% on. If DMing were hopping into the client, presenting a story, reacting to character actions, and hopping off the client then I would be all over this, absolutely. But it's not. You hop into the client and there's just... everything. Anyone who's fiddled with the client in base NWN knows there's a learning curve (not an insurmountable one), and anyone who's DMed on Amia knows that learning curve skyrockets with all the extra bells and whistles that are available to our DMs thanks to the work of Disco and others. Training time, if you will.

I really like this idea in spirit, but it's something that I'd have to give more than one night's thought on personally in order to be able to consider just how such a thing could work. I would want it to work. Just not sure how. So I guess I'm must saying that I really love the idea, but it's maybe not as simple as it sounds at first blush. There are obstacles - not insurmountable ones necessarily - but obstacles.


I'm pulling out all the stops tonight apparently... I'm even agreeing with Dark Immolation to some extent! Wonders never cease! (no disrespect intended, just trying to make light ) But, I think this is more a matter of clarification, at least for me anyway. Because I also agree with Dusty on the matter to an extent as well. Not necessarily with how he said it, but with the intent behind what he said.

I am of a mind that it goes something like this:

• If you don't like how something is done, you can leave. Or, you can speak up (constructively) to try to change it.
• If you speak up constructively to change it, you will be heard. The sheer volume of time that the DM team spends reading through everything on the forums, speaks to this. (I would also note that this is a double edged sword in some respect, but I'll expand on that below)
• If you are in the minority in your opinion as presented, or if you speak up in a fashion other than constructive, you will still be heard, but you may well not sway the matter in the direction you favor.
• If you have failed to sway the matter in the direction you favor, whether by speaking up in a fashion other than constructive, or by finding yourself in the minority opinion on a matter, we return to the first bullet point.

I don't think anyone's telling anyone to leave. What we are doing (or what I do at the very least) is consider the opinions that are voiced (constructively), which includes our own of course (no one's entirely without bias), and make a decision from there. It may not be the decision you favor. It may not even be the true majority desire if the actual majority hasn't spoken up. And once in a blue moon it may not even be what the majority voiced desire is if not all the facts are available to the majority. It may or may not be the "right" decision. But it is a decision made not out of malice, or spite, or anything negative in mind when we have taken into account the constructive opinions of everyone who has a stake in Amia (including ourselves) who has voiced their opinion on something, but rather in the hope of something better, whether it turns out to be or not. And old decisions are revisited if a decision made proves untenable or undesired after the fact. You try something, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it doesn't work for specific people but does for others.

When WoW went to easier raiding in Cataclysm and Pandaria, I totally lost interest in it; raiding was the main drive for me to play that game, because I enjoyed the tactical challenge and coordination of raid leading. If I'd told Blizzard that if they didn't change that back, I'd leave... if I even got a response at all I'd be lucky, and if I did it'd probably be "okay" veiled in "oh, we're sorry to hear that". Obviously a multi-million (billion?) dollar corporation is a bit different, but I think you get the idea.

Everyone here volunteers their time, players, DMs, Devs, everyone, to making the server a better place. But the cold hard fact is that nothing is for everyone, and there's something out there for everyone. So at the end of the day if Amia just isn't for you, and you just aren't having fun, you should either attempt to change things, or if that doesn't appeal to you / you don't find success in changing things, then yes you should go find something else that is fun for you. None of us want to lose players, we want to gain players. But if you're just not having any fun, there gets to be a point where you start doing more harm than good, even if the best of intentions exists. And I think that's what Dusty (he can correct me if I'm wrong about any of this) was getting at, in a nutshell.

And this ties in to the double-edged sword that I said I'd "expand on below". It's frustrating as a DM (and I find as a player as well) to see topics explode into a threadnaught with many players that have been "lurking" in the background suddenly coming out of the woodwork to lend a voice to a discussion. *holds up hands for a moment* The continued interest is good, to a point. Concern for the state of the server is good, as is wanting to see it change, but it voiced incorrectly it can actually cause more issues. That three page threadnaught that (I think) is still going? Think of how much DM time has been spent reading through all those posts, replying here and there. Think of all the big threads like that there have been recently, or in the past year, similar to my "did you know that" intermission above. Think how many events and NPC interactions could have taken place in that same amount of time.

But again we want to hear you voice your constructive opinions, tender your ideas for positive change, and so we read all these threads, posts, PM messages, Skype conversations, and what-have-you even though it takes away from our IG time (which is what we enjoy as much as you do), because we do care. If we didn't, we wouldn't. Airing old grievances, rabble-rousing, hopping up on a soapbox (yes... I know that's what I've done here, but it's constructive-oriented!), jumping to conclusions, posting based off of the rumor mill, arguing instead of debating, making reflexive and emotional posts... these things just take away time that could be spent (by each of us, DMs and players and Devs alike) better and more enjoyably IG, instead of on the forums. RPing our characters (PC or NPC) instead of debating until we've forgotten why we're debating other than for the sake of debating on the internet.


...I'm really really starting to ramble a bit now, but I've said most of what I wanted to say and if you've stuck through it, I really appreciate that you took the time to read. I would appreciate it infinitely more if you take the time to consider, to mull over, and to digest before replying (even once this topic is opened again). But I do sincerely hope you reply.




Did you know that... it took me nearly four hours to read all the posts in this thread, digest their contents, make notes on how I wanted to reply and what points I wanted to highlight, write my reply, and check it over before actually posting it? Damn I wish I'd been scripting instead...




*edit* DAMMIT RIGS! ... for Ninja'ing me, you get this again, now for the whole server to watch!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGNIXBd-kgU

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

Fo sho. But clarity is provided, for what its worth. And now sleep beckons in the hopes of migraine removal.

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

Here I just want to say:

1. Ninja, you stole my heart with your post. (My over dramatic way of saying well done, man.)

2. Alanna, you already had my heart, and my only concern with your storyteller idea is the opposite of Glim's concern. Those particular DMs would need to submit a request for them? It would seem, to me, that it may create yet another divide and opportunity for feelings to be hurt when one was possibly denied for whatever reason. If there is already fear and bad feelings around requests, this seems as if it could create even more around that negativity. Perhaps a way to keep it in spirit would be for the Team to recruit certain storytellers as DMs and give them the green light to ignore drama while on the client or some way to log into the client invisibly! (Then they could be visible if they're prepared for being so or invisible if they're not!)

3. Glim, your post was awesome, too. I enjoyed your fun facts moments, you raised a lot of good points and you seem to have a different perspective than other DMs (which I'm not sure if you technically count as one or not anymore) and that seems curious to me. You and Burning have done a great job in your time commitment to responding!

I would murder people for the chance to be just a storyteller without having to put up with the bullshit of the DM job that I don't like. It's what I always wanted when I was one. But the same probably goes for a lot of people, really, and there are just some tasks that the team shouldn't ignore.

In regards to server concept:

My personal opinion is that the gameplay mechanics were far more interesting and fun back when everything was "overpowered." then what's resulted: Which is just chain nerfs which normalize everything towards one build.

Yes, I mean dev crit, hips, etc, etc all that work you guys did basically sapped all enjoyment I had out of the combat system, even if it was done for balance. In the end, I feel it maybe slightly more balanced, but fun is really non-existant for me compared to how it was was before. If it was me getting tired of NWN in general, I wouldn't still enjoy combat systems like on Ravenloft, which I do, so obviously Amia changed, not me.

To me, Amia had the most fun mechanics out of the available servers and now.. no offense, I think it has one of the worst. I used to log on to level, to build, to play, theorycraft, etc but now I just log on to roleplay since the mechanics changed. And once I get tired of the roleplay I can do before I need a DM to continue, I log off. Make the game fun to play again, and maybe people will find incentives to do other things than inn-RP.

Oh, and I bet arrows still stack to 99.

Just food for thought.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

Murder people?! Really, Yoss...

Don't worry, Estara. I would murder them in a constructive and helpful way.

Mimiron, would having more combat opportunities be more interesting for you, or would it just further serve to remind you that the balanced system is no fun? What would make the balanced combat system more fun for you, save, uh, unbalancing it?

I stand by what I said for myself with pointing out the clearly marked exit, and Glim is partly correct in his explanation of my other intents with it.

As for my "snark," Vital, that was a trait I earned through being one of the two primary Player Mediators for a year and reading every -single- piece of vitriol that came our way and then attempting to mediate for it. Achievement Unlocked. Dealing with all of it can change you. Shouldering it all will burn you out. I took almost a whole year to recover from just how utterly awful you guys can be to both each other and to us because it started to make me feel physically ill just reading it all. I didn't run out of stories to tell or fun RP to watch, I ran out of patience for arrogance and petty things when I spot them. I have a large tollerance for this sort of thing and the sheer volume of it pushed me right up to my limit.


With 365 days in a year, that averages at just over 5 a day, and that 2000 figure excludes the numerous incidents we've simply handled in our DM Skype chat as we didn't think some incidents truly warranted full blown tracking as people simply bumped heads. All of that, and 2014 was a 'good' year.

My posts here have been a long time coming. This is the sum of my experience after 3 years as a player, and now the past 4 as a part of the Team. As Glim and I have both said, if you want less of it and more of our time spent doing what we all enjoy? Handle your shit in ways that don't bog the Devs and DMs down. I agree with him 100%. Heck, half of the issues stated within this thread and the other may solve themselves if you did. In the words of Bill and Ted: Be Excellent to each other. *Queue guitar riff*
That is the single largest critique I have of the player base. Lucky you, we're here to help when/if you fail, but we want you to succeed. We do everything we can to make that happen, but we can't do it all for you, no matter how much we wish we could.

Our roles here are to have fun. Our duties as DMs and Devs is to help keep things fun. Your duty as players is to have fun and avoid making this a Job for the rest of us. Plus, ***Amia Bonus!!!*** we actually turn to to you to help us not run things into the ground in our attempts to please as many folks as we can. Everyone can be respectful in that regard.

Edit: I agree Yoss.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

I don't know. I just don't find it fun now.

Timestop and Bigby's Forceful Hand, and the Divine Blessing (AC+Saves) are just about the only balance changes I'd vote to stay.

- +5 Magic Resist makes you mostly immune to IGMS, which is one of the only reliable sources of damage for a mage, who now can't CC as easily.
- Dev Crit was never broken. Get Fort save/AC and it's fine. Now it's just bad unless you're a 2 hand build since it doesn't even stack due to the bug, and KC... ugh
- HiPS. Get spot/listen or TS. Yes, HiPS spam could be frustrating. But with proper tactics, HiPS could be countered several ways and suddenly it's not as frustrating. Now, someone couldn't pay me to make a SD.
- Clerics?... Please don't get me started on how crappy clerics are now. The only reason I play a cleric is for RP.
- GS shouldnt have been nerfed. Not sure why it was. The better solution would've been to make reality potions a vendorable cheap item with a much larger radius.
- When the hell were paladins ever going to get nerfed?

... the list more or less goes on, but lets be realistic. I doubt many people will agree with me. Sure, it was hectic with all these abilities, but damn, it was fun.

Yeah, yeah, Amia is a RP server, this and that. But sorry, it doesn't hold my interest the same way without a fun combat system. Don't know what else to tell you. I'm not alone in this thinking either.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

(nvm, I'll post something meaninfull later, I skimmed through the start, posted, then continued reading. Alot was said after what I read, so I'll read through everything before saying something)

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

What you are suggesting, Shadowfiend, dovetails nicely with the growing preference for DMs as facilitators, taking our stories and our ideas and making them come alive, which serve like mini-plots in a way. And can involve factional support, too.

I think this is more or less the team's intent, but it is a paradigm shift from the past and requires a certain mode of thought that might not be natural to all DMs.

I agree with you completely. As well reading through these posts, agree with a lot of what's been said, primarily open the rift and ninja. However I speak selfishly in this topic since it happened to me. I won't go into details ( but if you want them feel free to PM me!), but I was given no warning before the ban. Oh, wait... I was given a warning which was later revoked in favor of a permanent ban.

I guess my point here is, there's been A LOT of people driven away by this "benevolent dictatorship", by force or just couldn't take it anymore. Of course nobody is here to speak for them, since I'm the only idiot who insists on sticking around after a ban (might expire in a year ). So here I am saying show a little more mercy, DM team. Few of us (that I know of) had malicious intent. That's just my advice.

You'd be surprised, Mimiron. I actually agree on a fair few of the points you've made.

That said, Glim's post sums up my own thoughts on this matter so no point in reiterating.

Again I mention the aforementioned storytelling DMs, it may come naturally to some of them

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

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Abernathy Hearthart, Salandran Healer (similar to my avatar picture of the lovely Jordan Madley )
Azorgl da Mercenary, Cigar toting Ogre...hero?

As someone that's felt harassed by certain dms that no longer dm in the past I feel like things have changed for the better recently. I used to get accused no matter what I posted of having ulterior motives. Weather it was a request, a things to improve, general discussion, whatever. And now I don't. It's definitely not perfect now, but it's been on the right path.

I need to mull on this.

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Womans in your town

I'm around for a long time now and never EVER had any trouble with any Dm and i personally think the Dm's we have here are great.
But then again i don't request allot of thing, nor do i have any special snowflakes.

What we have here is unique and its bothe the players and the Dm's that made it great!!
I hope we can solve the problems we have now as we always did in the past!

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Account name's: Holydeath The Five Corners
Active characters: Alandril Trueborn Blake Rift

So maybe not storytelling DMs aren't possible, the dm team could still utilize the playerbase a bit more. For instance it has been said that when requests are made you wait for a specific DM to respond, there are players that can contribute like that too. Also not every dm has to look at every request (I got no clue if that is actually the case). A handful of players could also help as diplomats rather than having DMs handle every case. I feel the playerbase cherish Amia, and that many are willing to contribute any way they can

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I am not weird, I am limited edition

Fair play, good dude! Glad we've come to an understanding. More seriously, that has crossed my mind before, and likely will again, but I consistently pass that test of my own conviction.


I don't know how things are where you come from. By where I live, our movie theaters are required to air a brief snippet showing the exits before the film. If you want to leave, if we are really -that- bad, you can go. We hope you stay for the film, but, we can't forcibly keep you in the theater. Same thing goes for our community, and we're a lot more interactive than a movie.

It isn't intended as some inflammatory write off, it is a simple statement of fact. Those that truly want to go, and that comment is the tipping point? Is that the kind of investment anyone really wants from a member of the community? Not a question anyone can answer lightly, but I know I've made my choice in that.


We have numerous posts on how to get involved. I have even done it in this thread while airing my own grievances/looking to not have history repeat itself.

Look at your clock. We have the same number of hours in a day as you do. We all have similar RL issues of needing to work, take care of kids, etc. We can't make our days any more open to cater to you. What we need you to do is make less of the other work we have to do. In turn that makes it go faster and as a result we can be in game and doing the very cool things you want of us. We want that too! We want to run small plots. We want to run a big plot every now or then, but otherwise help you focus on character development and growth.

We play and DM. This is important for you all to remember. We play because we still crave/want to experience that side of the Player-DM connection. (The closest exception to this had been Yoss, whom even played a few times if he feared he was out of touch.)

A rift is there, yes. I don't know how it started, but for at least 7 years (as long as I have been on Amia) it has been the DM's fault. For my first 3, I saw it and experienced it as a player: "Period. Always. For anything and everything. What jerks. They should change because they just don't get it. They don't get us! It's us against them, why aren't they listening when we're obviously the voice of reason in this?"

4 years ago I was given a chance to see that from the other side and see just how much the Team does to change things as fast as we can to keep folks happy. I saw all this and still the there was the constant drone from the players insist that the problem is the DMs. Well, they've changed. We've changed. A lot. A whole hell of a lot, and for the better. We're hanging out over the ledge and reaching for yours. You know what hasn't changed?

The Players. That single complaint that we are both the cause and only salvation they've got to their woes. Well, start working with us more and start mediating yourselves better. Give us a hand. Do that, and we DMs will have more time to then help do what all of us crave to do: Perpetuate Fun on Amia.


I fundamentally disagree for the reasons stated above. If that is all it takes to quiet someone, then they really don't care about fixing the 'issue.' Stick with it and don't make the points that cause us to call the bluff. That is how that phrase will disappear.


Yes!!! A million times yes!!! (To an extent). The team by and large agrees with that too. You should see the tizzy Letum is leading us in behind the scenes. Seriously, if the proverbial curtain were real, you'd think Taz was back here doing that whirlwind thing. With enough less time spent not doing other things we need to do, we could have revisions we are working on out in likely under a month. However, that kind of deadline remains out of our power to achieve because we have to shoulder more pressing, immediate tasks. If things continue as they are, the revisions we have in the making may not even be released until the next time everything is our fault.


Sorry to hear about that last part. Let us know if it happens again. When PvP happens, it needs to remain IC.

Unfortunately party chat is where a lot of folks attempt to solve their party grievances first/give hints that there may be trouble brewing that we need to go oversee, otherwise I'd be right there with you in wanting to turn it off at all times. I only tend to do so when it gets distracting for me as a player, or I simply banish it to my Combat Log.

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Eli Hodgewall <{/,~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~X
Sven <=={o===========>
Qeelak \ | / ,

The simple truth of it is players get "burnt out" with DMs just as much as DMs get "burnt out" with players and it really helps no one to hold it over another parties head as justification for anything. When either party can't come to the table with clean slate and *Peewee's playhouse word-of-the-day again* good faith that the other party is mutable to reason, then it all breaks down. Hell, I'm here and you know very well how blue in the face and utterly frustrated I've been at times with the administration. Yet, like Jubal Early, "Here I am."

Regarding the Storyteller DM thing, I really think that has legs. Simply because it is at first daunting shouldn't be at all a reason not to pursue it--it may just be our saving grace in the end. My thoughts, sometime around the time of my break, were quite along the lines of splitting the job of DMing into two other jobs, Game Master and Dungeon Master. This is what I came up with:

Dungeon Masters would function mainly as story tellers. Ideally once trained, they would serve in kind of shifts(a few weeks, a few months). The idea being, they are there just long enough to complete their plots. They would be able to choose how long their serve at the beginning of their shift and during that shift would not play their own PCs. Instead, that time would be focused on being available for PCs, advancing their own plot, and when that plot was not going on, randomly being around for possess NPCs and organically lend themselves to the stories they see PCs creating. After this shift was up, they would be free until whenever they chose to pick up the mantle again, though I would suggest the break be at least as long as the time volunteered as DM.

Game Masters would function as the administrators for policies, mechanics, and requests. They would serve as DMs normally do, which is I guess until they decide to leave or it becomes apparent, via feedback, that they might need to bow out for a while. They would patrol the forums, handle player disputes that escalated beyond what could be handled in-game, and basically all of the current "DM work" that has less to do with the actual act of running a PnP DM's campaign. There would be no restriction on them being allowed to play their character; in fact it might actually be encouraged that they continue to. As they will handle the mechanical and module changes, I think it would be important for them to have an ear to the ground, so to speak. While it wouldn't be required, it certainly would be appreciated that the people tasked with shaping the game still actually played the game.


This would solve a number of our issues, both for players and DMs. DMing is currently, and unfortunately I'd say, a very clandestine position on the server. People can, have, and do serve for years and years. That's good in the sense that we have people who are presumably more experienced with the setting and game. But we have also seen how it can, unfortunately still, cause our stewards to fall out of touch with the current pulse of the server and the vein that led to it. It cannot be helped but feel there is this sort of impenetrable barrier where players are asked to stay on one side and have literally no power than what is graciously allowed them, when such "allowances" were understood as givens in our halcyon days.

Would the team like us to have more sympathy to the plight and load we put on them? Cool, open it up. I mean really, open it up. Let more people hop behind the foldable screen. Untangle the fun, storytelling part of the job from the more rigorous, energy-intensive part of it. Back when I played PnP, round-robin DMing was still a thing and it kept us from tiring of each other in one particular role.

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