Joined: 14 Dec 2004 Location: Kohlingen, and a Basement in Canada
PnP spells need to be used to scry, buuuut, from the SRD Entry for Mind Blank.
Quote:
The subject is protected from all devices and spells that detect, influence, or read emotions or thoughts. This spell protects against all mind-affecting spells and effects as well as information gathering by divination spells or effects. Mind blank even foils limited wish, miracle, and wish spells when they are used in such a way as to affect the subject’s mind or to gain information about it. In the case of scrying that scans an area the creature is in, such as arcane eye, the spell works but the creature simply isn’t detected. Scrying attempts that are targeted specifically at the subject do not work at all.
Technically, even in PnP, mind blank works. There's no real reason it shouldn't work here, too, but it's going to be hard to keep it up constantly and without interruption and that's ultimately going to be determined by a DM. Most of the time people seem to rely on other unsupported PnP spells, like private sanctum.
To detect scrying or any other spell, you need a spell that can detect magic. You cant use spellcraft to detect scrying spells or mundane sight. 1) You do not see the mage scrying casting the scrying spell. 2) Scrying spells do not create visible effects around the target, because such would defeat the purpose of scrying spell.
Detect scrying spell is used for the purpose of detecting such. But if you use detect magic, you get a general sense what kind of magic is at work around you. There are other spells of higher circles that provide more specific information, but detect scrying spell is the lowest spell that informs you instantly if there are scrying used around you. However, none of the detection spells lets you know who is scrying you.
Actually..! This is what the SRD says on the sensor scrying creates.
A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you, but not spells or effects that emanate from you. However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.
Lead sheeting or magical protection blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.
There are also other spells that can block it, or outright detect it. Mindblank is the most common one (and easily available) though.
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Yes, but it does not create visible magical effect, like an aura or something. Instead, as mentioned: "Invisible magical sensor", therefore I assume see invisibility or true seeing is needed to be able to detect it. Just eyes or ears are not enough, you need a way to detect the sensor behind the veil of invisibility.
Could you give the link to your source please? Trying to locate it at the moment myself.
EDIT: Found it. Nevermind.
And this is what SRD says on Invisibility:
Quote:
Invisible Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.)
Editing further:
Therefore, to detect scrying spell. You need at least int 12 and see invisibility spell. OR a spell that is designed to sensor scrying spells, such as detect scrying. There are number of ways to be shielded from scrying as well, as mentioned above and some that are not mentioned here.
THIRD EDIT:
I found out something interesting in SRD:
Epic Spellcraft:
Quote:
Spellcraft The character can identify properties of a magic item.
DC Task 50 + caster level Identify basic property of magic item 70 + caster level Identify all properties of magic item 50 Quick identification of alchemical substances and potions Identify Basic Property of Magic Item This use of the skill requires one round of inspection, and functions exactly as if the character had cast an identify spell on the item. A character can’t attempt this on the same item more than once.
Identify All Properties of Magic Item This requires one minute of inspection, and reveals all properties of a single magic item (including command words and charges remaining). A character can’t attempt this on the same item more than once. If an item has different caster levels for different properties, use the highest caster level.
Quick Identification A character can identify a substance or potion in the field as a full-round action, without an alchemical lab or any cost. The character can’t retry this check (or take 20); if he or she fails, the character must identify the substance in an alchemical lab, as normal.
What is DM take on this, is this something that can be done IG? And really am asking due to heavy investment of my character on the said skill.
Joined: 14 Dec 2009 Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
I can't see how See Invisibility or True Seeing would work to detect Scrying. There is nothing there to see, much like for example, Cat's Grace which is an 'invisible' spell. Scry creates an invisible sensor, but can you see sonar? No, only if the sonar pulse bounces off something, is the representation detected on the screen, which could be similar to Scry. Scry could be perceived as similar to sonar, radio waves, microwaves, etc., things we cannot see, but can be detected. In our case, we would need the appropriate spells to detect this magical sensor. The two first mentioned spells detect things that are actually physically there, but hidden by magical means.
See Invis and True Seeing do not detect Scrying >_> That's just ... silly.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
If you notice. It states it creates magical sensor in spell description. It states that it is invisible for naked eye. And if we go by what SRD stated about spotting it... Then with see invisibility or true seeing, you should be able to pierce the invisibility and if you roll high enough int, you can spot the sensor.
Personally, I've always considered scrying spells don't create anything to detect, by naked eye or see invisibility/true seeing, but SRD states it creates magical sensor that is considered invisible, which I assume is same as it would be when casting invisibility spell, that can be detect by high enough int check. Personally, I don't see why it is so.. But.. rules are rules?
Players Handbook 3.5, p. 274-275:
Quote:
Scrying Divination (Scrying) Level: Brd 3, Clr 5, Drd 4, Sor/Wiz 4 Components: V, S, M/DF, F Casting Time: 1 hour Range: See text Effect: Magical sensor Duration: 1 min./level Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes
You can see and hear some creature, which may be at any distance. If the subject succeeds on a Will save, the scrying attempt simply fails. The difficulty of the save depends on how well you know the subject and what sort of physical connection (if any) you have to that creature. Furthermore, if the subject is on another plane, it gets a +5 bonus on its Will save.
Knowledge Will Save Modifier None +10 Secondhand (you have heard +5 of the subject) Firsthand (you have met the subject) +0 Familiar (you know the subject well) –5 1 You must have some sort of connection to a creature you have no knowledge of.
Connection Will Save Modifier Likeness or picture –2 Possession or garment –4 Body part, lock of hair, bit of nail, etc. –10 If the save fails, you can see and hear the subject and the subject’s immediate surroundings (approximately 10 feet in all directions of the subject). If the subject moves, the sensor follows at a speed of up to 150 feet.
As with all divination (scrying) spells, the sensor has your full visual acuity, including any magical effects. In addition, the following spells have a 5% chance per caster level of operating through the sensor: detect chaos, detect evil, detect good, detect law, detect magic, and message. If the save succeeds, you can’t attempt to scry on that subject again for at least 24 hours.
Arcane Material Component: The eye of a hawk, an eagle, or a roc, plus nitric acid, copper, and zinc.
Wizard, Sorcerer, or Bard Focus: A mirror of finely wrought and highly polished silver costing not less than 1,000 gp. The mirror must be at least 2 feet by 4 feet.
Cleric Focus: A holy water font costing not less than 100 gp.
Druid Focus: A natural pool of water.
Players Handbook, p. 173
Quote:
Divination
Divination spells enable you to learn secrets long forgotten, to predict the future, to find hidden things, and to foil deceptive spells. Representative spells include identify, detect thoughts, clairaudience/clairvoyance, and true seeing.
Many divination spells have cone-shaped areas (see page 175). These move with you and extend in the direction you look. The cone defines the area that you can sweep each round. If you study the same area for multiple rounds, you can often gain additional information, as noted in the descriptive text for the spell. Scrying: A scrying spell creates an invisible magical sensor that sends you information. Unless noted otherwise, the sensor has the same powers of sensory acuity that you possess. This level of acuity includes any spells or effects that target you (such as darkvision or see invisibility), but not spells or effects that emanate from you (such as detect evil). However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours, and thus it functions normally even if you have been blinded, deafened, or otherwise suffered sensory impairment.
Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.
Lead sheeting or magical protection (such as antimagic field, mind blank, or nondetection) blocks a scrying spell, and you sense that the spell is so blocked.
Quote:
Player's Handbook p. 153 Invisibility
Although invisibility provides total concealment, sighted opponents may still make Spot checks to notice the location of an invisible character. An invisible character gains a +20 bonus on Hide checks if moving, or a +40 bonus on Hide checks when not moving (even though opponents can’t see you, they might be able to figure out where you are from other visual clues).
Players Handbook p. 152 Total Concealment: Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight (for instance, if he is in total darkness or invisible, or if you’re blinded), he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment). You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
Quote:
Dungeon Master Quide p. 302 Invisible: Visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents’ Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). (See Invisibility, under Special Abilities, earlier in this chapter.)
Joined: 14 Dec 2009 Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
Yes, that means if your Scrying character has Darkvision or See Invisibility on, they can use those spells in the Scry attempt, to see the target, not see the sensor. A dolphin has a sonar sensor, much like "However, the sensor is treated as a separate, independent sensory organ of yours,..." that.
Any creature with an Intelligence score of 12 or higher can notice the sensor by making a DC 20 Intelligence check. The sensor can be dispelled as if it were an active spell.
As I understand Kudark, the spell creates an invisible magical sensor at the location of the target scried. As it is considered invisible sensor, see invisibility or true seeing is needed to see the sensor itself at the location. And even with see invisibility or true seeing, you would need int 12 to notice the sensor, with high enough roll.
Strictly speaking, even if we were to interpret scrying as like sonar, the description still states there is a sensor - ie, sonar emitter/relay, which is an object (or "organ"). It holds a position, and is even stated to have the capacity to move to follow the target, with its own move speed. The SRD even hyperlinks "invisible" as the condition in the description, which effectively states that all rules concerning invisibility apply. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview ... tm#scrying This is pretty much black and white rules as written.
There is of course, a difference between invisible and not visible in the context of the game rules, since See Invis only works on objects (including beings), and not all things that are not visible are objects.
That said, further Rules Lawyering would suggest that even with a DC 30+ spot roll (which would foil invisibility) or spells to see invisibility, you won't automatically detect a scrying sensor because of the requirement of an Intelligence roll, which is quite difficult to make (unless you're a level 30 wizard, in which case why is your will save so low and Mind Blank not on in the first place?). You could interpret that as "not knowing what to look for" unless you have the intelligence to detect subtle magical signs (presumably why it's not Wisdom even though it's almost always wisdom for "noticing"). The rules here are pretty weird, and theoretically lead to odd situations where you can't see your own scrying sensor despite knowing exactly where it is and having See Invis up.
So I was wondering on lvl adjustments. So trying to figure build for a character and didnt know how these worked, would a build like 9fighter/20CoT be possible?
Unfortunately, I don't believe it would. No. The ECL adjustments only really take away from your maximum possible level, as well as contribute to the ECL restrictions of parties. They don't really have any effect other than that, I'm fairly sure.
You need at least 10 something classed to have 20 something else. As maxium lvl of some PrC's is 10 before epic lvls. Which means:
If you start with rogue 5 and take 10 Assassin the next step is:
A) Take more Rogue's till your LVL 20 (10 Rogs + 10 Assassin) B) Take something else for at least 5 lvls till your LVL 20.
ECL +1 means you can reach lvl 29. It does not change the fact you need to be lvl 21 to get epic lvl of Assassin (11 Assassin lvls.) So highest PrC you can get with ECL +1 is 19. Therefore you can build 10 Fighter / 19 CoT.
ECL means that if you have lvl 3 Rogue, you are considered to be lvl 4 if you have ECL +1. For drow lvl 3 rogue is considered to be ECL 5 as the race is ECL +2.
Just wanted to explain it throughout, just in case it was needed.
Attacker has 50 AB Defender has 60 AC, and 65 Discipline
Attacker attempts KD on Defender: 46 AB now... Let's say they roll a 15, beating the AC of the defender.
At this point... The DEFENDER rolls their discipline check (D20 + discipline skill or 66-85 in this case).
My question is this: Does the ATTACKER use their initial attack roll? In this instance the 15? Or, is there another roll for them as well? I ask because the combat log does not show the Discipline roll or this other second attacker KD roll.
Reason for asking: If indeed the attacker rolls a second time, that makes sense and makes lower discipline still useful, since even in this scenario if the defender's discipline skill was only 41, they still have a chance, albeit a small one, to resist the KD attempt (41+20=61, matching the 46 AB attacker +15 D20 roll). However, if the Attacker uses their initial attack roll, then the defender needs to have discipline at least as high if not higher than their AC since.... let's say the attacker needs a 20 to hit the defender at all, now, that same 20 gets used toward the KD attempt. Nothing less than a 20 would even get to this point, so... naturally, discipline would need to be high enough to resist it. In this case, they'd need that 65 Discipline to be able to resist it every time.
I know I babbled a bit, but, the gist is... does the attacker make a second roll for KD or is it their initial attack roll still versus the discipline check?
Joined: 24 May 2009 Location: South of Grumdek Murr
That Guy wrote:
I know I babbled a bit, but, the gist is... does the attacker make a second roll for KD or is it their initial attack roll still versus the discipline check?
A character with this feat can attempt to knock his melee opponents to the ground. The character makes an attack roll at -4, and if successful the defender makes an opposed discipline check against the character's attack roll. If the character wins, the defender is knocked to a prone position.
One Roll to rule them all.
and don't forget the size modifiers, especially if the attacker has the IKD feat and/or the target is of different size than the attacker. and... some modifiers apply to the attack but not the discipline roll (target is flatfooted, or already prone, etc)
_________________ Nana Anvilmar - Slower Talking, Faster Running Lester, Jester, Chandler, Alchemister ! Pauris Sennemen de Laelith - Merchant (currently in Suzail, Cormyr) Metzlitemoctzin - Payit slave, now freed from Silent's sadostyle of plotting !
Thanks, but... actually, even with IKD, you still have a -4 to your KD attempt against same size critters. I tested this using the combat log. IKD lets you KD creatures 2 sizes above yourself, that's all, it's doesn't remove the penalty. I've seen this argued ad nauseum, but... the log doesn't lie. Not sure if that's what you were saying, but, yeah, the modifiers apply to the attack but not necessarily the KD... gets so confusing!
But yeah, I was thinking it was the one roll for the attacker, so... that helps!
Out of curiosity if someone wanted to simulate woodworking skills (ie wood carving figures and such) with a Job System job, what would be a good choice? I was considering Carpenter but maybe Sawyer would be better? Then again, Carpenter seems like it's just beeter for more refined wood working skill, yeah?
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
That's what I was thinking, just needed some support cause it's still 'early' *cough*10:30am*cough* and my brain is all fucky.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Druid Elemental Shapeshifting: Elder Shapes Im unsure if these are actually issues, so i'm posting it here instead of bugs section.I was not buffed. I want to know if these are correct or not.
Fire Elemental 1.) DC 32 Con Drain appears to be working, but doesn't appear to roll on every hit. Is it one of those per flurry things? 2) AC that is being reporting on the character sheet is terribly wrong. I was hit with a roll of 25, while showing 38 AC in the elder form. I have more than that in the character non-shifted form. 3) Combust DC is 20 4) Fireball DC is 21
Water Elemental 1) Acid Fog can damage you and your summons 2) The in-game description of Drown says that it can kill opponents if they fail their save, the spreadsheet says takes 25% damage max (to cap of 150) 3) Fort Save is 30 for Acid Fog
Earth Elemental 1) Stonehold DC is 20 2) Grease DC is 25 3) On hit stun is 32
Air Elemental 1) Call Lightning DC is 18 2) Whirlwind is 33
Quesitons: Do the DCs increase as you level up? Do they increase based on wisdom? Is the 'creature' weapon fists, so taking a monk level would give them uBAB, or certain monk items make them get better punchy fists. Why do the pre-elder appearances all use the old version (except water which uses new version) and then elder elementals use the new appearances (except water). The old elementals are pretty much ugly as hell.
_________________
The Peacock wrote:
[GreatPigeon] is better than me.
Uncle-Opustus wrote:
Just before I fall asleep, I like to pretend it's just a public feat so Pigeon can succeed in politics and save the world from poverty... with his unicorn and shining armour and Excalibur.
With the whole temporal clean-up that happened, is this still true?
_________________ Aernoud Van Brabant: Heir of the House. Proprietor of the Beer Wagon. "Go to the Mayfields, have a pint, and wait for this to blow over." Aurelius: Sunmaster of Amaunator. Contemplative. Aspirant to Transcendance. "Sol Invictus"
Soooo... I'm currently herp derping, I know it. AC calculation:
I was just on a character that was getting 19 AC wearing a normal tunic and no AC boosting items. He has 12 DEX. No buffs present.
10 base + 1 DEX = 11 AC ... where is the extra 8 AC coming from? Relogged and same thing. Same on both servers. What am I missing?
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Ah. I actually thought that Tumble didn't display on the sheet (cause the sheets loooooooooooooooove to lie haha). I forgot AS, but it was the Tumble mostly. Then again, had I remembered the AS ... >_> *cough*
Nothing to see here, just having a bad day.
_________________ Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play: Salema Nefahri::A penny for your thots Zrae'a'stra'fryn::That which nightmares are made of Khasir::From the East a storm is coming
Is Divine Champion class (CoT) able to take Fighter Feat's Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization at Epic Levels?
_________________ E'Lyn†riss Emberrose-High Merchan† of the Emerald Rose Company-Retired E'Van†le Emberrose- Cleric of Helm High Watchman of the Emberwa†ch Knights
Every new noble PC requires a new request. This includes marrying a noble or making a new chara for an already existing noble house, aswell as playing the child of a noble couple.
Even if that noble happens to be the child of a PC I'm already playing? Of course, a certain matriarch would get bumped off or retire indefinitely, but still.
_________________ Aoth Nathandem - Wizard of house Tholaunt and chosen of Ma'at.
Quick build type question (is there a general/short questions thread in the build subforum? should there be?).
I don't have much experience at higher level pvp/end game content. Is discipline worth taking if you have to cross class it/max at 16? That -17 difference (to the warrior type max) seems fairly daunting, being almost a whole d20 under.
Further, but separate, what about for a shifter that has to cross class discipline? Does not even being able to supplement it with gear mean its absolutely necessary, or worthless to bother with?
and no, having 16 discipline won't do anything for you. For you to resist KD and such with discipline, it should be close to or preferably higher than your AC, so that knockdowns that you don't actually dodge with your AC still have to try to beat your Discipline roll with that AB roll. Otherwise it isn't particularly useful.
Joined: 24 Feb 2014 Location: The Land of Lucozade and Pringles
I have some Dragon Disciple related questions. Probably basic stuff, but I'm a mite scared to go ahead at the moment.
Okay so, even though I've been dipping in and out of Amia for years I have never actually taken a restricted class before so I'm kinda nervous and paranoid about rules and stuff. I mean, this could just be all a lot simpler than I think it is, but I want to make sure.
I would assume I have to contact a DM in-game to ask permission and clarify what bloodline my character has. But would I need to contact a DM for every level I took? Do I need other people to witness the whole ritual deal and stuff? Speaking of which, is the only actual requirement for the ritual to perform (a) deed(s) that would be IC for a dragon of the relevant type whilst the character is aware of having the bloodline of that type and fully intends to persue it?
Also, I'm a little embarressed to ask this, but how do I contact a DM in-game anyway? As far as I'm aware, the only time you can see their names is when they use the shout channel.
_________________ Mercy Adelonda - Monk of Hoar Klaetan - A shapeshifting Kobold. Octavia Di'Toria - Eldritch Knight.
The Dragon Disciple rituals have no official lore, so it's basically up to you how you want to undertake them. They are magical in nature, so you should keep that in mind, but other than that you've kinda got free reign to come up with your own neat ritual ideas you could undergo. You don't need anyone overseeing you, nor do you need to keep a record of your rituals unless you would like to.
You don't specifically have to contact a DM in-game to get permission to play an RDD. We set your dragon type for you, so you just ask us to, for example, set you to Bronze and we'd hit you with a widget that will give you the appropriate bonuses when you level up. (Do this at level 1 preferably, though its fine to do it later. You only need to do this once). The only restriction is that your alignment should be within one step of your Dragon bloodline. So a Gold Dragon should be within one step of Lawful Good, for example. If you have loads of DD levels (usually 10+) we may start wanting you to shift to the actual alignment of your dragon bloodline, but that's a case-by-case thing.
So the process will likely be this; You take a RDD level. You contact a DM to ask for your bloodline to be set. We look at your alignment. If it's an appropriate alignment, we set your bloodline as requested. You continue on happily as a joyous dragon-blooded thing. To contact a DM in-game, you can either wait till you see one send up a Shout online and then send them a Tell, or you can just post a message into the DM chat channel, which is just /dm when in-game. The sidebar on the forums shows you when a DM is online.
It needs updated, but a lot of it is still right. What/Who exactly are you looking for?
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