^

I've lost most of the PvP I have been in, and the only times I've been pissed is when the other party has played dirty. My first instance was where my original main was with a pair of pally friends in the forest. They had a spat with a couple never-do-wells who ended up jumping them with Tyrus standing there, who of course helped his friends. Died spectacularly (sub-15 vs epics is splendid!) Another was a conflict my party was walking away from and we got jumped from behind. Died horribly again. Can't recall the others but there were two maybe three more. And that's since I joined in 2010. I avoid PvP at nearly any cost, because I just like PvE far much more, but when it happens just pick yourself up and deal with it.

Unless there were actual rule violations (and not 'boohoo I lost, I'm gonna complain!!!!!'). Then tell the DMs But it still happened, it's still RP, so just:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

Please do not infer a culture cannot change or adapt. Try, and get others to try with you. There is support for it.

Just snipping this because I feel like this is the basic stance of many players here. They are scarred by previous griefers, and unwilling to try again. It's a very frustrating opinion to encounter. It's nice to see a couple people profess to a more open mindset, but I haven't seen that to be the majority.



For clarity, how does a 'relatively small' number of players constitute rampant anything? How do the rather low numbers of PvP encounters, posted above, support your opinion there?

Also, as you do seem of the opinion that epic dodge is overpowered or automatically powerbuilt, my dex based epic dodger weaponmaster would get trounced by more than half the server. Certainly ever caster, most by half her level. That's why she doesn't get in stand up fights. And also why munchkin powerbuilds ARE subjective.

I'm going to side with NinjaClarinet in that building /well/ does not necessarily mean powerbuilding. Munchkins come in all flavors, but my general definition, and one I think you and most others would agree with, is taking abilities for the mechanics and ignoring the RP (ignored low abilities, ranger 1 in epic, a dearth of social skills, most builds involving monk [with a side note double munchkinism of ignoring alignment]). Some of which is even explicitly supported and expected by the server standards (late build tumble dumps with stored skill points). But not taking level 5 (or 9, etc) in a 3/4 AB class pre-epic is simply building well. Making a build guide, to make sure you can achieve certain things, is not powerbuilding. Ignoring the mechanics doesn't make one a better roleplayer, just the opposite in fact.

To not be entirely negative though:

I fully agree with this, and will add that it is also supposed to be fun for everyone involved. People abusing another's fun and involvement are /griefers/ and should be handled as such. If people are breaking the established rules with no consequence, I really have no idea what to say.



I wonder, if there were a way to remove the possibility of PvP abuse if more people might be willing to consider character consequences more seriously. I don't know is this is possible within NWN, but how about this:

Turn PvP off on the entire server, so that the setting doesn't allow PCs to hurt each other.
Devise a widget that circumvents that setting, but only with people that have also activated the widget. Both players must throw down the glove, so to speak.
-- This way no one can ever say PvP rules were not adhered to, as both sides have to hostile before it can even happen.
-- People that are 'always willing and open' to PvP can simply leave their setting on. The game will act like they are hostile to each other, and the player should keep that in mind and take precautions (like not running past each other, causing AoO's).

That doesn't touch the 'meaningful death' topic at all, and isn't intended to. It's just a suggestion for a better way to handle the PvP rules, which might possibly lead to changes in how death could be handled later. But is it possible?

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As has been stated the only value in pvp is that which the participants allow. Which historically, and systematically on Amia for an overwhelming majority equates to nothing, or an annoyance. It can be different overnight without any rule change, instead culture attitude adjustment. 10 year old attachments and communal aversion will not allow a sweeping change. Rather we are left to mediate amongst ourselves the value of any pvp. This makes sense, but if people want to decide on higher levels of gravity in their interactions ooc collaboration would be needed.

For instance joe and ashley meet in the forest, things are getting tense
Mortal kombat is imminent player x messages player y asking if they would like to make a neat story of their spontaneous interaction, and they both agree that sounds swell. So, as a part pf this story the weight of pain is determined oocly to best fit their story. Perhaps its a narrow escape, perhaps someone loses a hand

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bad man

Truth!

I don't think we need to disable PvP or any of that jazz. Maybe if people took losing less personally, and concentrated less about winning and focusing more on following the rules and creating a story from it it might have more of a lasting impact no matter the result! To be fair, though, the rules could use quite a bit of changing.

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a.k.a. Audrey Zinata

This seems like a terrible idea to me. The server pvp rules got changed originally because of how much people abused a system similar to this. Back in the day you had to have "Consent" or no PvP whatsoever. You can bet that it was abused all the time to get out of an IC consequence for being an ass/etc. Heck, I am ashamed to admit this but in my youth I even abused the "consent" only rules to basically OOCly get out of an IC consequence.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

Agreed, also why are people so afraid of losing when as far as I know the death penalty isn't that high to begin with. Not even sure if looting is possible either, so you are still cushioned a lot even if you do get PvPed

Looting is not possible (gear or gold), and PvP death currently costs you no xp at all. The issue isn't that it costs anything, but that one side or the other takes advantage and it isn't made fun. The current PvP rule is that both parties have to agree to the PvP, most be hostile, and you must give clear indication of intent to attack. How is a system that requires that a 'terrible idea'? This would literally be no different then the current rules, besides being enforced mechanically. Note the clause that IC consequence cannot be ignored, even if a player opts out of the actual PvP. This would simply require both parties to click a button before damage can be dealt. But it would create a clearly visible system by which people can opt to cut short the process, being that if you have both already clicked the button, PvP damage could happen even by accident. It really would just get rid of the ability to damage non-hostile PCs.

I am for consequence, and for player conflict and using the mechanics of the game we are playing to sometimes resolve it. What I am not for, and don't has any place here, is taking advantage of situations or abusing mechanics. This is supposed to be fun for everyone, and that definitely is not. I don't have access to DM records or anything, but by far the most common negative responses to PvP stuff I've seen are things along the lines of 'I wasn't ready', 'I was still typing', or 'I wasn't even hostiled first'. Jumping the gun or taking advantage of IRL distraction or slow typing is clearly not the way to go about it.

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The current PvP mechanics are not set up that way. Both parties do not need to give their agreement to the PvP. There needs to be an IC reason for the PvP, hostile needs to be set, your intentions need to be stated, and you must offer a chance for the other party to back down.

The old system was that OOC consent was required. So in other words I could sit there IC and call you all sorts of names, refuse to stop harassing you, and could even spit on you if I wanted to and just say "No" when asked through tells if I was ok with PvP. Or a popular one back in the day... say "No" in tells, run off get full buffs and send a tell back that you agree after all and wtfpwn them with full buffs.

While the systems are close they aren't the same, and removing the ability for the other party to turn pvp on and attack without absolute OOC permission from the other players (Through a widget or otherwise) would just cause a repeat of old rules and old mistakes.

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Active
Levexal
Techsmith Tokas Tokersun - http://amiaworld.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=88661

I think gold looting from corpses would go over well, so long as it is an option like in the Dire system I presented. What most people don't want is for customized or DC items to get looted from their corpse. I don't think that means we're any less "hardcore." It means that we realize the complications that come with that sort of thing and would rather not deal with them. Someone steals your PC's family heirloom and then you never see them again because they either never log on or never play that PC again. The person looted from is out something they worked for with no chance of that loss being rectified or even adding onto their story. It's just gone. Sort of like expecting someone to stay dead indefinitely over a very brief, non-RP building confrontation. You give a lot and don't get a lot in return, in enjoyment or story. It doesn't mean you're somehow less dedicated to RP, it means you have a somewhat realistic expectation that the game is here for your enjoyment as much as anyone else's. You're not obligated to be anyone's Oberyn Martell any more than they're obligated to be your Krillin.

To get back to the PvP part, you can always OoCly agree to have an item taken from your body. I think that works fine enough for now, as long as everyone is a good sport about it. The defeated player doesn't have to give up anything they would feel kills the enjoyment of playing the PC and the victor gets the enjoyment of gaining tangible goods from another one through illicit means. I hope I'm not alone in this, but I wouldn't want to completely ruin someone else's fun, no matter how cool or "realistic" it makes my story look. I still feel bad enough sometimes for doing things that led to other people choosing to perma their characters, even though that is completely their prerogative. In PvP and everything really, we have to come together and realize that everyone is trying to have a good story. While we have every right to value our own stories highly, it doesn't mean we can up and ignore everyone else's at their expense. There's got to be a meeting point between people crying "The North Remembers!" and those who treat anything but the final, story-ending death as being KO-d. I think we're closer to that point than ever before because there's less people stating their way is best and more people trying to figure out how to make it work for everyone.

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Taking gold and or items from players is expressly prohibited by the pvp rules, and has been over the years debated to death alongside the pick pocket skill, any rewarding of PvP with material gains stolen from players will only encourage so called "munchkin" pvpers.

The biggest problem in Amia is that death is essentially meaningless, allowing griefers to steal gold and items from players who are staying true to what a Role play server should be is ludicrous and hope that wiser minds prevail in the DM team than to ever consider such obvious pvp flame bait.

PvP is going to be unbalanced because the entire history and rules sets of D&D is based on the concept of a party of player characters taking on the environment of non-player characters. Classes have been designed and created to fit in with and add to the lore of the realms not to be balanced in direct conflict with each other.

This has led to the regrettable fact that 3.0 is massively open to abuse (for want of a better term) by those who seek mechanical advantage, and why many servers of both NWN1 and NWN2 have included as part of their rules various forms of controls, checks and balances and restrictions on who can build what to one degree or another.

However specific server rules aside you will still see where it is possible to build them the same sorts of pvp based mechanically powerful builds across the two games and across all styles of server, so clearly the ingenuity of players seeking those advantages will leak out through every measure to contain them.

I agree with some here that the culture of Amia has changed a great deal (and obviously will continue to change as all things do) and things that were once taboo are now common, things that were once common are perhaps taboo.

But surely regardless of general points of view we can all agree that as role players we should frown on "roll playing" in general principle and acknowledge that there will always be an element of players who are more interested in screwing other players, rather than characters screwing other characters.
And that concerns of other players about this are legitimate and rational, one need only stand idle at Bendir on a busy night to see the plethora of shifters and palemasters (but not limited to shifters and palemasters) itching to unleash their pvp power and frankly the quality of the rp is to my mind lacking when its obvious they are just trying to start a fight for the sake of a fight.

Who is Amia cantering to anyway? Characters who in the course of their lives may have cause to fight, or players who just want to pvp for its own sake?

Personally I feel any character based on a build rather than "in game" experience and activities is counter to the general premise of a role play server even though it might satisfy a atavistic desire to appear liberal and free thinking and of creative integrity.

I would argue that role play integrity is more important to a role play server, than the "entitlement" of a pvper to build a pvp character, slap a bit of rp veneer on it and hack and slash through the player base.
(was interesting recently to be observing the Dale on a stealthy character to see the same player name pop up there on several characters that could be deemed "pvp powerbuilds" in a short space of time, each time to pick a fight for no apparent reason that "me evil" or "me chaotic", I mentally shrugged as those the player was interacting with whilst clearly oocly annoyed, to their credit went with it ICly)

How does my monologue relate to the OP? Simply this, in the short time I have been back I have been subject to and witnessed many weak attempts to initiate pvp by some players I suspect to be motivated by the need to pvp than any legitimate IC reason for confrontation.
This is directly contrary to my previous experience of Amia culture over the past 6-7 years, this could be completely coincidental or it could be a stark indication that the server culture has had a relatively (to my experience) significant shift towards pvp away from rp. And the understandable disenfranchisement or feelings of disenfranchisement apparent in some other players

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

Intuition tells me it has less to do with a need for the player to PvP anything in sight and more to do with the constant parroted message about "not enough conflict" in Amia. So, naturally, in order to be helpful or try to contribute, people take this into their own hands by trying to initiate conflict in the form of PvP.

With varying degrees of competence.

Um, that's not what the rules say at all. You even quote it right there. It says if robbed you are not required to give things up. The victor cannot force you give up items, but as the robbed individual you can choose to give stuff up. Selecting the Dire option would be consent to/choosing to give up a bit of your gold upon death in addition to the longer death time. No one would be forcing a PC to select the mode, so no one would be forcing people to give up gold who didn't already choose to have that happen.

Even if a "munckin" PvPer or whatever wanted to run around and try to get rich like that, there's no guarantee that anyone they face is going to be Dire, thus no gold. And if they die, they're out of commission for 4-12 hours. It's not the sort of thing that would attract gold-digging munchkins because the risk would outweigh the reward.

Edit: Ah, I think there may have been some confusion. When I said looting would be okay as an option, I meant that you can optionally choose it for yourself. As in you, the defeated, could choose to be lootable to people who kill you. The victor wouldn't get to choose for you or force anyone to give up loot.

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The things we relinquish in fear of "griefing". When was the last time any of you was legitimately griefed? And I don't mean to sound crude but slighted pride and things turning out contrary to your design doesn't constitute griefing. In all my time on amia I have been griefed twice, and neither was even worth mentioning to the staff as they were remarkably inconsequential. And the last event as over 2-3 years ago. These ghosts you fear are just that, ghosts.

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bad man

I wouldnt disregard it, evil detecting dog. It happens more than anyone would like. I have personally never been griefed through PVP but there are legitimate reports and it is never a good time. I believe our current setup and rules work fairly well when people are in a mutual state of keeping it all in good fun... namely IC, with OOC considerations realizing were all here to roleplay and play a game.

Which is exactly what rule 15 relates to so not sure where you get the idea it doesn't say that and so when I quoted it, it says what I was saying it said which is exactly counter to being looted after pvp which is what you said you wanted.

Whether it be a voluntary option or imposed on everyone on a ROLE PLAY server it can only contribute to pvpers and token rp, rather than to rpers having rp relevant conflict where the rp ~is~ the reward.

The OP asks is PvP a dying art, I suggest its not an art at all but merely a low priority tool in a RP context given its manifest abusability.

In regards to griefing, I have been griefed plenty of times on this server. I have made my reports to the DMs over the years for what good it has done I have no idea but "griefing" is subjective I suppose.

I consider some players with their rp veneered pvp maximised builds with no IC legitimacy to "the build" to be "griefing" and feel that sort of player should not be tolerated however its my current view that its exactly these kinds of players and mindsets (and those who may not be one but certainly support their "right" to hack and slash on the player base for various reasons) that are currently very loud and proud. Even if they are small in number to the overall population.

I would suggest that a player running through their characters in order to continue pvp after each one has a turn is guilty of "I'll get my main" griefing which I'm sure is against the rules, but the relevant point to the OP is that its a sign of the swing in culture of the server from a time where such things would have been rightly reviled to the current position of people having signatures boasting of their Amia award even as they flout the pvp rules.

No doubt others disagree, but the OP question was "PvP a dying art" and they have my answer in my replies here.



I believe what the player was suggesting is that a few people can be incredibly disruptive if the majority are behaving themselves, for example in a library of students studying for exams it only take a handful shouting and screaming to completely break the atmosphere and cause massive disruption to those quietly reading.

And so in Amia with pvpers its entirely possible that the vast majority of the players are ambling about hunting, rping and what have you and the whole lot upset by a handful of pvpers with their RP irrelevant pvp maximised builds starting fights all over the place simply for their own sake but by using a sliver of token rp to stay "legal". As opposed to rpers having entirely legitimate rp confrontations where the outcome is in doubt as none of the combatants are maximised for pvp and thus are not "uber"

The original poster is of course free to correct me but I believe that was what they were trying to say.

I got it *nodnod*

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

It seems that for all your interest in maintaining the integrity of IC you are spending a lot of time sweating the "OOC" elements of optimal building. People don't power build maliciously, for the most part. Instead they powerbuild as a product of desire for their time and effort to be maximally effective. It is absolutely silly to expect someone to spend 150hrs grinding quite possibly one of the most bland combat systems ever, to have a piece of garbage. As an RP community you have to accept that you are going to share this environment, if the culture is optimal building (and it is, even if people build poorly you are hard pressed to find an str without dev crit, and a dex without epicdoge) then you are left with the dilemma: is it worth trying to change? Is it really that detracting from the overall experience? Can you blane builders for wanting their invaluably limited time to leave them woefully regretful of the end product?

The stigma that all building is designed to oppress and stiffle opposition is a terrible color to paint it. I mean seriously look at the most active topic of all time on this forums. Yep, you got it, thr build thread. Are all those posters deplorable power builders with ill intent?

As for griefing you are right, it is subjective, and too many people cry rivers over scraped knees rather than being adults and solving the source of the problem. It is that age old problem where we live the blame culture, and never find the root. As for char swap pvp refer to well founded rules: dont relate your characters and all effect requires reasonable cause

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bad man

Erm first they are not mutually exclusive and clearly one is related to the other, secondly I am not "sweating" sweating implies excessive effort, trust me its the easiest thing in the world doing what I am doing, pointing out the glaringly obvious



It is exactly this mindset that I feel is symptomatic of the problem, the expectation that X effort "grinding" entitles someone to some sort of reward over and above material gains from all that hunting, and presumable the true reward on an RP server and that is the wealth of RP interaction along the way which in fact now I'm saying it is clearly missing from someone "grinding".
Or that a negative effect stems from a negative intent, what is it they say "the road to hell is paved with good intentions but made smoother with thought for others"

Or in other words someone can quite innocently be powerbuilding simply to see if a certain build can be dragon punching omg op, and during the course of normal play end up innocently fighting someone who has built around their characters role play including feats and skills that relate to non-combative abilities relevant to the character.
The powerbuilder keen to test the builds god mode does a bit of token rp to make the flashy red legal and at this point isn't thinking about cooperative rp experience because they are so focused on the build test and winning the pvp they are not sparing a thought for others either good or bad.
They absolutely destroy the rp character with an ooc combination of classes, feats and skills that no actual living being in the setting should have if they are not a god, and the annihilated player character is suddenly rendered pointless to play because if every outcome is going to be pvp (because the rules allow it) and if the outcome is always going to be the same in pvp. Then where is the scope for change and interesting rp?

Something doesn't have to be maliciously intended for the outcome to be very bad for others.

Furthermore the assumption that a character built through RP imperatives rather than ooc considerations about pvp is "garbage" is highly suspect and needs to be reconsidered in my opinion.

Amia is supposed to be a role play server and imo builds should go hand in glove with the rp, rp isn't some second hand low priority consideration to be tacked on after simply for legality sake.
Sadly that horse has long bolted and we are now stuck with a great many mindsets where what they want by way of ooc considerations of build is more important to them and must therefore be more important to everyone else especially when coupled with all the grind they had to do.

I suggest that the error here is the assumption that ooc should matter more than rp, and that "grind" is inevitable and not in fact a by product of an entirely wrong approach to life on a role play server.



Same applies to those whose ooc consideration for powerbuilds in relation to role players on a role play server ? Possibly with a bias to the role player given that that is the actual point of the server.



When did I ever say "all" building, and that build thread is not solely about powerbuilding for pvp, is it.



I believe that is what some people, myself included are trying to highlight, and that is the role that powerbuilding for pvp is part of the problem, it's not the entire problem but it is definitely part of the problem. I remember once that there was a hue and cry about paladins and the powerbuilding being done there, they were nerfed, then there was hue and cry about devcrit and that was nerfed (incidentally making str based weapon masters obsolete overnight pretty much)

So the concept that certain builds are detrimental to the server is well established.

Personally I feel that if Amia either by rule or (preferably) by culture moved to a more rp build mentality that the amount of pvp would increase because the uncertainty of outcomes would be there. Right now I pretty much avoid pvp in most situations because shifter X will be unkillable, epicdodger X will be unkillable, caster X will destroy me instantly, etc etc etc.
Sure it wouldn't be perfect but I believe it could have been so much better surely all of those powerbuilders, *ahem* optimised role players would have prefered so much extra conflict if they really were rpers rather than lost pvpers.

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

You're looking in the wrong direction. If what you want in this microcosm is meaningful PvP builds don't need to be taken into consideration (other than overt balancing issues). The culture shift doesn't need to enforce one build style over another. I alternatively propose that you look towards the collaboration and communication between players to guide the IC framework. I know it sounds a bit silly, but a good story (not withholding the random spontaneous nature of RP) requires some tweaking and tuning along the way. This is best achieved by working as OOC architects to guide the flow of IC interaction.

Think of it as being our own DMs.

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bad man

So, I just looked at the 'New? Start here!' link to the side. The very first thing it says is how to get the proper hak packs and such. But directly after that it starts going into build advice and suggestions. Basics, but there it is.

Once upon a time, long before I ever came by here, the old server split, forming Amia. I wasn't there, but it has been my impression that one of the split issues was the ability to freely build the character one wanted. I feel that casual attitude is one reason Amia is still around with an active playerbase too. A lot of the hardcore servers had population issues even at their prime, and are currently barely limping along if they exist at all.

The horse didn't bolt long ago, as you have it; It never existed. Building characters to operate well has always been an interest to this community, it's not something new. It's also not something that can be gotten rid of... There will always be someone, for one reason or another, that has a more optimized build than another, regardless of the amount of controls put on that.

The real goal should be that people are telling a story together, and all having fun. It really doesn't matter who has the better build, or even who 'wins' a PvP encounter, if everyone had fun and walks away satisfied. You, and others, are obviously saying that hasn't happened, but I don't think it's one players build vs another in this particular case. Some things have been nerfed, but mostly the mechanics that made them overly powerful (like monk AC or paladin saves in excess of level) rather then the builds themselves. Poor sportmanship, on either side, should be frowned on much more then the fact someone took a PRC or feat's pre-reqs without express IC experience leading to it. That's a level of hardcore it seems was decided long ago wasn't right for this environment or community.

Amia is a roleplay server, yes, but it's also a /game/. It should be fun. Spending a bunch of time building a character that isn't fun to play isn't, well... fun. People build well, or learn to, for this reason. You, as well, are expressing not enjoying playing a character that can't keep up as it were. You're just looking at other people putting together characters that operate the mechanics of the game and all it's limitations better as the problem. I find that a bit suspect too.

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Semantics.



Quite agree

My problem is the mindset of powerbuilding for pvp is that often goes hand in hand with power or god mode rp, seen it myself in Amia a lot over the years, god mode rp isn't about "togetherness" its about memememememustwininternets. Amia provides a media for these kinds of players who are blatantly more interested in hacking and slashing players for the sake of hacking and slashing that for any legitimate rp.

Of course there are degrees above and below this mindset, but they are still there.



Nice on paper but in game its more like powerbuilder meets rper, powerbuilder trumps rper after required token rp, rper not having fun looking at respawn window, powerbuilder doesn't notice or care as they are busy emoting cutting up the body, mutilating the body, burning the body or some other god mode bull, which sometimes is relevant to rp and quite often isn't.



Again, nice on paper but pretty far from reality in game in my experience.



Well this thread is about how pvp is a dying art as the op put it, several players including myself are explaining how what you are saying is often manifestly not the case contributing to what the op was asking.



It's amazing to me that we have entire threads about builds (not all powerbuilds though) and a board dedicated to powerbuilds, but powerbuilding for pvp is constantly being denied by some.

It's a fact, classes have been nerfed because of the fact of it, many here have posted rational opinions and statements based on fact of direct personal experience and whilst others have had said they have been fortunate to not have had a single negative pvp experience those that have are not going away, so deny all you want but ignore the legitimate rational concerns of other players and see how that benefits server!



It's my opinion that powerbuilding for pvp then provoking as much senseless, rp context absent pvp is poor sportsmanship as you put it.
And it seems to me that once someone has sat down with their excel document to oocly build their death machine that they will want to use it, if not why make it.



And? Games have rules, when those rules start being abused, ignored, circumvented in spirit if not in letter, then the rules and the game need to take a hard look at it, or ignore it and bury the head.



For all not just powerbuilding pvpers.



Not exactly, I was pointing out that powerbuilding exists and has resulted in nerfs which at times have been stupid and in the wrong place in my opinion (like devcrit) I still play the character, his rp hasn't changed and the build was created long after the character concept was and after several levels in game to allow a little organic growth of the character to inform certain directions in build.

The difference now is that the character has zero pvp footprint and as his rp is bodyguard based he is pretty much relegated to pve...



You find it suspect that I have an issue, on a role player server with people building soley for pvp using every ooc trick and build combination without reference to the character's role play. Which they then use by basically ignoring the rp pvp rules to god mode about purely to provoke pvp they know they can win (because they obviously are not going to counter pick themselves if they can help it) and thus enforce rp on actual rpers that the rules now require they acknowledge.

Interesting but hardly surprising given the number of pvpers apparently lost in Amia on their way to the pvp servers.

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

This thread makes me want to PVP.

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Melsa

There are horrors beyond life's edge that we do not suspect,
and once in a while, man's evil prying calls them just within our range.

Where, exactly, is this at? The closest thing I found was a suggestion on a few stats and a couple classes to make playing NWN for the first time easier. Literally:


That's not talking about build advice at all. That's giving a friendly suggestion for complete newbs. Nothing else in that post talks about how to build your character.

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Whomst've'll'd'mn't I play:
Salema Nefahri :: A penny for your thots
Zrae'a'stra'fryn :: That which nightmares are made of
Khasir :: From the East a storm is coming

A suggestion of stats, with reference of what PRC to take is build advice. It's not in depth, but it is. And it is the first thing mentioned, followed be a note about names and roleplaying. I'm not positing that that makes this a server that rotates around making cool builds, but that making effective ones, from creation, is intentional. Perhaps that is an incorrect implication to take away from the little bits here and there I've seen about the original split, and official statements.

I am rather bothered when people pull apart sentences to reply to things out of context, so I to keep things from spiraling further won't even get into most that. Just this:



No, what I said was that I find it suspect (as a reference to your own wording above) that you pin your issues on other people. I don't think your stated stance, that builds are actually a form of griefing, is shared. And you make a lot of assumptions.

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I'm locking this to give some people time to chill.

Please, don't make snappy, aggressive, or rude remarks against your fellow players and posters.

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I play:

Okay, unlocking this after it's had a chill pill. Please keep this civil.

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I play:

This has also gotten a bit off-topic. The OP wanted to know why PvP has declined on Amia, and how it could possibly be re-energized in a constructive manner. He's one of those that enjoys PvP and its relation to rp plots.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying PvP. I enjoy the hell out of some PvP. What this conversation has gone down to is the base argument that PvP shouldn't be shoved down people's throats, why that happens, and how it can be avoided.

Well, here's the gist. There is a reason there are so many areas on Amia where PvP is banned. The places where it isn't are generally wilder places or smaller populations, where you would naturally be quite a bit less safe. If someone runs around acing people left and right because they have some sort of romance with their build, you should use that. Instead of getting angry OOCly, make it an rp aspect of your character.

"What's that, you want me to walk to Bendir Dale from Cordor? No thanks. There's a crazy guy out there, and I just don't think that road's safe enough."

I'm absolutely not saying that the PvP rules should be abused or broken. What I am saying is that PvP is a natural part of Amia, and rp in general. If you don't like it, then that can also be a part of your rp, and there are rules that allow you to avoid it.

So, whether someone has a "powerbuild" or not, the OP's point should really be addressed in this thread. How does one responsibly add more PvP to a server where it has arguably slowed down? There's nothing wrong with that concept, provided its done responsibly. I've already given my two cents on that particular subject earlier in the topic, so I won't repeat it. But do stay on point, and don't get so bent out of shape at each other that the OP's point is lost.

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First I am not "pinning" anything on people I am making observations based on direct personal experience.

Second by your own words what you are now doing is making assumptions about my "assumptions"



I am rather bothered when people hear only what they want to hear, in regards to someone responding exactly to a given context but with a rational point of view based on fact of experience, that the offended person does not understand or agree with.

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

Plenty in this thread is on topic as well.

The pvp rules are broken or ignored all the time, not really anything to be done about it as its a pvpers "right" to impose the forgone conclusion of their pvp powerbuilds as long as do a little banal token rp first. I do not see the pvpers attitude changing to one of role play first and mechanical pvp only when suitable for a role play server.

The issue of pvp powerbuilding is completely relevant and on topic to the OP, as has been clearly explained by a number of people myself included.

We have forum moderators now if you are really concerned with offtopic posts, report them to the moderators, rather than using "off topic" as a sly way of bashing someone's point of view.

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

To play devil's advocate for the "PVP in of itself can be good for RP" side of the argument for a moment since PVP, especially if there isn't some grand "point" to it often gets a really negative image (In the case of legitimately griefing individuals and the like fairly so) however the counter points FOR it should be made.

As I see it there are a few point for the benefits of even -more- casual use of PVP.

Firstly is that it is almost certainly the easiest way to create IC animosity, which in some cases IS the goal RP wise of the characters behind attacks. And it is not like violence of that degree or nature is really our of place with the nature of the setting or server. As the many daily "hunting" trips that occur can attest to.

Secondly is that as much as there are peaceful characters that would if given the chance do no harm there are characters that see little value in life and would have no issue killing over a pair of boots or an insult. However it is often the case that these more aggressive characters (and often then their players) get cast in a negative shadow as many fail to differentiate between true griefing and simple RP involving PVP that flow counter to peaceful RP. And that just harms everyone involved as it strains OOC relations as well.

Third is less of a point an more an opinion but still I feel it should be voiced. A lot of people dislike PVP because they so rarely are involved in PVP, and to be fair it is often some of the more "tense" types of interactions but by pushing down PVP to more obscurity you can just exacerbate the issue, as when people do get involved in it in some form often times many people involved don't know how the rules all work, someone gets twitchy, jumps the gun and everything goes to hell and PVP just gets a worse name. Ideally in PVP you should reach an OOC understanding once RP has reached a certain point and all parties should be well aware and hostilities set well in advance of the actual PVP itself, that way when/if it does occur it is all by the rules and no one is slighted by mechanics and so hopefully leaves the encounter feeling at least ok about things OOC.


PVP can be fun and I don't believe it is something to be discouraged or shunned, simply it needs to be handled clearly and responsibly so that it creates value IC and OOC.



Edit: As for the topic of Powerbuilds and PVP since it was brought up by the looks of it, personally while I have issues with powerbuilding with no reguard to RP I would be a hypocrite if I didn't admit that I myself Combat optimize most of my characters within the respective confines of what I want them to be RP wise (the exception being in the case of characters created without intent to care about combat at all really which is less common).

However it is also that case that some characters have valid IC reasons to be powerbuilds to some degree while others have less, so long as they are doing it as part of their RP and it breaks no rules then that is their choice to make, your character might not always be the best PVP combatant, but that it why you can then respond to that character's advantages in PVP with advantages your character possess out of PVP that they lack.

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Melsa

There are horrors beyond life's edge that we do not suspect,
and once in a while, man's evil prying calls them just within our range.

Demonising people who build for maximum efficency isn't going to help any cause.

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Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand

Discord: Bhaalorian#5715

Suhjet, I don't want to see any more posts that are wholly inflammatory and/or have nothing to add to the discussion. That's the second time you've posted nothing productive (and arguably just meant to bait) in this thread. Don't let it become a habit.

And I've already said it once, but let's not get too comfortable in our agitation about this topic. Cool it with the bashing on people who enjoy building powerful characters. Having a strong build and enjoying PvP does not automatically mean that you are not on the right server. Everyone has different styles that they enjoy. It is not all right to bash those who have different tastes than you do. Strikeclone, that goes for you, too. You keep telling people not to assume and not to bash others' points of view. PvP is a style of gameplay inherent in any server and if someone wants to build their character to maximize their efficiency for whatever reason, they have every right to do so. People who grief and people who PvP for the sake of PvP just to piss people off will (and do) get slapped by the Team, yes, when they are caught or properly reported.

I personally don't think that problem PvP'ers who cause headaches for people is the reason there's any decline in PvP. I think it's attributed to the influx of new players and a hint of unfamiliarity with the way the game works. The server story is in a bit of a lull at the moment, from what I've seen. So maybe it'll just take some time for more unfamiliar people to get into the swing of player-driven conflict - which is absolutely healthy for the server. I enjoy seeing it.

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Jes, I am not trying to bash anyone.

I am merely offering my opinions based on my direct personal experience in regards to the OP's question about "pvp a dying art", and where my initial insight isn't understood or is misrepresented I sought only to elucidate the point. Others are free to feel differently or to not agree at all, of course.

But I slowly, dimly begin to understand that topics like these are flame bait to some players and so will bow out of this topic with what grace is left to me by those sort.

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Æ special character = ALT+0198

Party chat filtered, RP or it didn’t happen

See, that's the thing, I don't bash people's point of view. I think the talk of powerbuilding is a relevant discussion to have. Just not to this point. But I suppose I could explain myself in a better way. I really and truly believe that your build has absolutely nothing to do with the manner in which PvP can be used for rp purposes. Whether you win or lose is irrelevant; it's what you do with the outcome that matters.

A powerbuilt character isn't inherently out to break the rules of PvP. Their build has nothing to do with their ability to rp on the server. I'm more in agreement with Jes, in that some newer players probably just don't have a firm grasp on the server's PvP rules.

This doesn't have to be an unpleasant conversation, or any kind of "flamebait." I only think that the OP wanted a constructive manner of increasing PvP. (And feel free to correct me on that, OP.) Speaking to the reasons why PvP has declined is particularly relevant, but I disagree with builds being a good reason for this decline.

However, if it merits discussion, then let's get our discussion on. It's been proposed that PvP has declined on Amia because people believe how certain characters are built makes them unbeatable in conflict, and thus simply avoid that conflict at all costs. Not only that, but some of these characters go out of their way to initiate PvP without any real reason for it, thus further tarnishing the image of what PvP could be.

If that's the case, what would be steps that could be taken to help that situation? The rules we have in place are fairly solid, imo. Should we take further steps to educate the playerbase? Maybe put new players through a PvP bootcamp upon entering the game, as a way of instructing them on the rules of the server? That could be an interesting way to get new players introduced to the server overall, too. But, that's fairly effort intensive. Thoughts?

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There's no need to bow out. This topic does seem to ruffle some feathers, but we can still discuss these things with each other without falling into hysterics and fire-tossing.

I encourage you to continue the discourse in a productive way. Let's work out if there's a problem that needs fixing - and how we as players can help fix it together.

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