AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Active good guy-factions?

For the most part I agree with Tom. After playing a paladin for a long time now and one who progressed far in both political standing and what is considered the paragon good it has been rough. I try not to complain about it and though I have taken breaks I still always go back to Izariel. His story is unique and though his path is pretty narrow in the eyes of good he has never once swayed from it.

But from experience in always playing good. It is a lot harder then people give credit to. Role playing with evil has always been interesting to me as a good character because you are limited in your choices. Do you act humble? Try to redeem a person who is blatantly evil or do you fight for what is right? This is where it becomes difficult. Without extremes one way there can't be extremes the other as no conflict that is healthy arises. A paladin cannot shine when everyone looks at them like a power hungry political force. Much like a dark evil cannot dominate if everyone is already ready and willing.

But the hardest thing of all is seeing the good people working so closely with evil that cannot be helped. This to me is new on the server and in a way it has made my desire to continue to play the extreme good fade out. To sum it up it is boring and repetitive with little to no reward. Which I am sure the last remounts of good and evil are feeling much the same. The only way to adapt to this is by scrounging around for little threads and in doing so you end up excluded from a lot and trying to force your way into scenarios.

To me that is the hardest part because for better words you feel like an ass about it. My own character was build on the premiss of a fatal flaw and a greatest strength. His greatest strength is his ability to lead. His greatest flaw is in doing so he is young and has made terrible mistakes in which he has ignored key factors such as politics to do what is right. This has caused considerable pain to the character and has taken more time to fix in game and out then one would believe.

Though it is possible to still play extremes but it is hard. Very hard. You will run into resistance, you will run into problems. In my honest opinion from trial and error there is little place currently on this server for either. To play either you will need to keep a focus and be prepared to face extreme challenges with little reward or gain. That is my best advice in this. Sorry if it isn't the greatest but it is all I have.

Re, Redemption; I remember talking to Serb about this a tear or so ago about if his character Velden, who I considered one of those premier bad guys, would ever be redeemable out of curiosity--I'd always played a goodie, and over sevreal years of her working in Cordor and elsewhere, she had several people ask to be redeemed but 95%+ of them were just playing her and had ulterior motives. In 5 years of playing her through maybe 60 cries out for redemption, she got played maybe 58 times of those 60, and that's when she worked in Cordor as a server hub faction leader. The work made her jaded to the concept and that was entirely from PCs--not NPCs or DMs. Players made it their own server culture to have irrevocably evil characters who cannot be redeemed, and the jading and skepticism that comes after is a realistic response. Is it fair for ones who actually want to be redeemed? No, but it's IC and just means they have to soul search and find out if they want to humble themselves to groveling, potentially, to prove their intentions. If your PC won't, it's another IC thing.

We also have run many successful redemption quests as DMs (were running at least one right now) and it's not easy, but I think it should run considerably resistance -- you want to have your character redeemed, but will your character relapse? Does he really want that for himself when something shiny dangles in reach?

Just my two cents from my side of the pond.

I'll start this by saying that I haven't read a good deal of the posts in this thread. In regards to Kohlingen specifically, the city/faction has suffered from a loss of many 'primary mover' characters. Those in leadership roles, officially or unofficially, that stirred things up - have hung up their hats and moved on/retired/died. The reasons for this vary, but BoB's early assessment is one I agree with.

In regards to Kohlingen, the city/faction was hijacked by yours truly (with very crucial help from a several others). This was started way back when, when the Arcanum were a truly insidious threat that was ingrained in Cordor, shielded by her government and hidden behind her innocent populace. With the very real possibility that military conflict was imminent, from several differing meddlers and power-kegs waiting to blow up. Surgical attempts to remove the Arcanum were insufficient, and the game changed as was necessary. Ulrik purposefully took Kohlingen, and turned it into a weapon (a shield, more exactly) that would be used against the Arcanum. At the exclusion of many other 'lesser' evils, to the chagrin of many crusading paladins. His motivations were and remain his own, but plenty of other powerful PCs were on board, and Kohlingen was risen from a fortress city of knights to a true city-state that rivaled and exceeded Cordor. All so it could counter Cordor, and the Arcanum threat that lingered in the shadows and threatened to bring war and death and all that horrible stuff to Amia.

Then that horrible stuff did happen, and the good guys won.

Leaders in Kohlingen stepped down, fulfilling their oaths and goals, and entrusted the city to a new generation.

The lack of activity in Kohl is an opportunity. Unhappy with paladin RP being constrained by politics? The paradigm has changed, and it only needs some activity to push it in a different direction. There's a void that needs to be filled, as evidenced by this thread. So, go for it, if you want. :wink:

The way I see it, the good guys won in the grand scheme of things. And "good" in terms of really... Most of the things holy crusaders do, the smiting of evil, the cleansing of unhallowed places? Good is reactionary. They're done in response to something larger. Are there many active good guy factions? Not right now, because there's not as much to react against anymore.

The main big bad guys in the plot? They're pretty much gone except from a few places, and those places are pretty much considered to be the territory of one or two factions who keep everyone else out. I think Wiltun is getting a big surge of activity because their seriously screwed up island is now the biggest bad there is to contend with. And Wiltun works pretty hard to keep everyone else out of their territory as far as I can see.

The main big bad guys in the player base? We have now adapted to the point where we know to just not interact with the 'good guys' unless there is something that threatens everyone. Why would we want to deal with people who would do nothing but tear us down when we can just become increasingly more powerful under our own steam without you getting under foot? We know well enough to just not give the good guys anything to really react to.

This is just the natural cycle of good and evil, imo. They feed off each other. You can't have one without the other. For the moment, there are no horrifying evils out there. At least, none that are publicly rearing their heads. Which leads good factions to drop off, as there is no threat to fight. Good can't exist without evil, and evil can't exist without good.

Not to say there isn't good and evil on the server. They're just not as outspoken, and probably building their own plots without the world knowing. Inevitably, that will come to a head at some point, and conflict will resume.

I think there's a lot of good posts here.

Regarding redemption: I think depending on what exactly your character is renown for doing, it may not actually be possible to be redeemed, ever. Speaking from personal experience, here, as Audrey spent roughly two years attempting something which led nowhere. Yes, the scale of time moves 1:1 now, but try to keep in mind, that most people don't even play their character for one year. So expecting someone to be grovelling for the rest of their natural lives for a chance at redemption isn't really realistic.

However, for people who aren't as messed up as Audrey is, perhaps their story is more believable and it's certainly possible and worth embarking on that journey. All in all, like BoB was saying, 95% of the people were disingenuous, and with that mentality, there's simply no reason to ever give someone a chance. This is not to say Audrey was not part of the 95% or the 5%. Infact, the server probably had it right. But redemption as a whole, for people who've done things to make them notorious is simply a waste of time, and effort, in my experience, if you have the end-goal of actually having it work. Maybe it should be that way-- but in any case, I learned my lesson.

Regarding the good vs evil.. I think both sides need to be more content playing chess and moving one square at a time. Too often, do I see plot openings, and people get all fired up OOC and call in a million firefighters. If you guys wanna make the most of the situation, take it easy and write a story of it. You don't have to win right away, whether you're evil or good. Not every evil event on Amia requires a worldwide reaction from Toril.

To go back to the OP, here is a list of currently active factions. I'd encourage faction leaders to try to put up a little more OOC information to facilitate new players finding you, such as logins and character names of the current roster or leadership (if you want that out there), usual playtimes, areas the faction frequents, etc.

I really hate to post anything to such threads, but feel free to PM regarding questions on Kohl. If I can't do much, I can collect things until Rigela's return.

Last edited by Mr. Hackums on Wed, May 27 2015, 3:12 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I'm in the process of creating a good-guy faction, myself. I just need more time to ensure that I'm sticking around, and a little more time to make it naturally work. But feel free to hit me up if you're curious.

And this:

Quote:

Regarding the good vs evil.. I think both sides need to be more content playing chess and moving one square at a time. Too often, do I see plot openings, and people get all fired up OOC and call in a million firefighters. If you guys wanna make the most of the situation, take it easy and write a story of it. You don't have to win right away, whether you're evil or good. Not every evil event on Amia requires a worldwide reaction from Toril.

Is exactly why I'm doing this in the first place! To try to continue and provide compelling conflict from the other side of the fence.

I approve of this message. (Both Hackums possible return, and the icy character he has in mind!)

Also, I can only speak for myself, but all those neutral people that have been brought up here? They are all just as worthy of redemption as the evil types. It shouldn't even be as hard, with them not being EVIL and all (admittedly though, maybe it's not quite as exciting to save people that aren't sworn to the powers of darkness). Occasionally I'll make a character with a specifically very neutral mindset, but most times when I make a neutral they could be swayed one way or the other. I've got one going now that I could see going good (though not LG), just as a kneejerk reaction to all the evil gits running around. Maybe this is the Planescape kid in me, but it's always seemed like convincing the neutral types one way or the other was sorta the point of being at one of the extremes. The forces of neutrality generally don't do a whole lot on their own.

I don't think it's fair to say neutrality doesn't do a lot on their own. While about half of neutrals more or less are content to cruise through life until something forces them to act, there are just as many who are active in counteracting extremes. Entire product lines and campaigns are devoted to this theme (Greyhawk's Circle of Eight and the rilmani spring to mind).

Most of my neuts take the view that extremes are bad, all of them.

Murkoph wrote:

I think Wiltun is getting a big surge of activity because their seriously screwed up island is now the biggest bad there is to contend with. And Wiltun works pretty hard to keep everyone else out of their territory as far as I can see.

We're actually one of the more inclusive groups on the server and I think that's why we have so much activity. We're not your typical good guys and we don't want to be. Ruathym is a harsh and sometimes unyielding environment and our PCs battle against cultural norms on the daily. - The faction itself was updated over time to be a viable option for different types of alignments and we love getting PC help with our projects, even when they're not directly tied to our faction or members of it.

The problem is, our players aren't going to ignore certain setting realities. Caraigh is an island in need of heroes, but your pc's actions could create unintended dangers for the denizens you're trying to protect. Going through the Wardens is -the- best way to get all of the information you need to ensure you aren't endangering the populace or making them hate you. It's just a fact that it is a survival setting, and we don't like pc's that try to skirt those harsh realities for their own gain.

You're not there to help in the right way? You're a danger to our holdings and people the Wardens are sworn to protect and, as a result, you'll be treated with extreme prejudice.

Gorgometh has the right of it. One of the problems I often hear is that Amia island doesn't have a culture to respond to, so I made sure Ruathym region does. It's difficult transitioning from high magic Amia to low magic Ruathym but it should be and being excluded once doesn't mean you always will be--you just need to respond correctly to the region and work with others who have seniority in the region.

Yes... I've spoken with so many who don't understand the Ruathym culture. And then there are those that go to Caraigh and have no clue what is going on. I've been playing there for a few months now and I learn something new all the time. We love having people come to help, but... most think what they do is helping, when it's really not.

PSA Commercial: Find your local Jarl Warden before you get too crazy in Caraigh.

Good guys? Isn't that all perspective? The Wardens save lives every day. Is that good enough?

Kohlingen = Superman
Wiltun = Batman

diffrent teaching styles, and why everyone likes batman more.

To anyone reading the thread, I suggest taking this information with a grain of salt. Yes, that includes this particular post, as well.

I'll admit I'm still confused on the message you all are sending- and maybe others are as well. To make it clear OOCly- someone has to work with Wiltun/seniority to get involved there?

Also, Wiltun as Batman is great.

It actually couldn't be clearer. If you don't want to be seen as a potential threat or liability, work with the region's pc's.

Nothing says the character has to. But if your character doesn't, you can't expect for them to be treated well.

Yeah it raised some concern for me too. But I think that BoB meant that the "troublemakers" can get the equal opportunities to get involved in their own ways, but they will be treated as troublemakers

What I'm seeing is that Rauthym has an expressly xenophobic culture. Magic users are bad and should feel bad because they're the biggest threat to the world (as shown in the megaplot) and really shouldn't be going around making trouble in Rauthym if they don't want to be swarmed by the Iron Guard. This isn't a culture of exclusion, it just means you have to do things a certain way, and there is already a group of people who do things that certain way and know the region and/or trusted in it. So working with them is a leg up from being perceived some magic using harper-lesbian-noble-vampire-pyromanic-cancermage (as Hurst would put it).

A little reminder:

Burningoutbright wrote:

What would really help me, personally? Let me know what exact goal you have, make it your priority to know (even if you have to cut out going to meddle in other regions and plots as much, which, I know, kind of sucks), and then involve as many other PC's and players as you can, so if you're not there, there is another delegated PC who may be, who I can feed information to and include on your behalf. That is what makes the Caraigh crew successful, and the Wiltun crew successful, and the EO successful (even though they have just barely entered the region), along with commitment to the region. I can identify who they are associated with, and rely on them to contribute to the information network for when I'm not around.

I have had a few players tug on my sleeve for attention, but they don't meet any of those critera: they don't have goals, they don't want it to be a priority, they aren't working with anyone, they're [probably] not going to stick around in the region and contribute to the information network. When I see that they want to just know what is going on, I direct them to the exact players and PC's to talk to and work with the get involved and meet my criteria, and I usually get met with something like "Fine, nevermind."

In a region that is really obscured in myth, stories, superstition, oral tradition and misinformation, it is really aggravating for me to have a player tell me "No, I don't want to talk to other PCs with my PC. I want direct DM attention and DM-given information" when I have no idea what your goal is, or what you exactly want, or what you exactly want to do with it, or if that information is going to be a dead-stop with you (which it will likely be if you don't want to RP with the others to learn it in the first place.)

So, to reiterate:
- Be committed to the region and contribute to the information network.
- Have goals you can tell me about, which are clear, or are self-evident (like the EO)
- Involve others! Have a group of folks aligned with clear goals and purpose, so I always have someone to reach out to.
- You must RP with others in the region. Not all information will be DM-given just for you, though I will make exceptions for groups of aligned purpose with clear goals (see above).

But I am not entirely unsympathetic to the casual observer, and I am working on a general catch-all basic information topic for the region for IC and OoC information, just in case.

Also, PMs are an absolutely awful way to reach me unless I specifically tell you to send me a PM. I check them and then I almost immediately forget and go back to what I was thinking about before.

Quote:

What I'm seeing is that Rauthym has an expressly xenophobic culture. Magic users are bad and should feel bad because they're the biggest threat to the world (as shown in the megaplot) and really shouldn't be going around making trouble in Rauthym if they don't want to be swarmed by the Iron Guard. This isn't a culture of exclusion, it just means you have to do things a certain way, and there is already a group of people who do things that certain way and know the region and/or trusted in it. So working with them is a leg up from being perceived some magic using harper-lesbian-noble-vampire-pyromanic-cancermage (as Hurst would put it).

This.

gorgometh wrote:

It actually couldn't be clearer. If you don't want to be seen as a potential threat or liability, work with the region's pc's.

Nothing says the character has to. But if your character doesn't, you can't expect for them to be treated well.

It actually could be clearer, and is now! I suppose some of us are just much less intelligent than you, gorgometh, and require some clarifications that you don't think are necessary. Still, in my opinion, it never hurts to ask!

Estara wrote:

It actually could be clearer, and is now! I suppose some of us are just much less intelligent than you, gorgometh, and require some clarifications that you don't think are necessary. Still, in my opinion, it never hurts to ask!

It's not that at all and you know it. - You play a PC that has more or less experienced what we're describing. So, it wasn't meant as a jab, just an assumption that you knew from said experience.

What I like about Wiltun in the time I've been there is that there always has been a good mix of alignments - we had a paladin for a long while, and likely still would if the real life monster didn't eat her. But there are good guys who want to do good, evil guys with the good interests at heart, evil guys who want to use the environment to cover their ambitions, evil guys who just want some direction and stuff to do, good guys wanting to keep the bad guys in line and neutrals running the gamut in-between. Plenty of room for meaningful conflict and PC growth, and a leadership that knows how to handle it without letting the faction go to pieces. With BoB around the cultural facelift has made playing a character tied to the setting a dream. But there are costs, as have been detailed above, and not everyone is willing to buy into it. But that's cool, to each their own.

bobofwestoregonusa wrote:

...perceived some magic using harper-lesbian-noble-vampire-pyromanic-cancermage (as Hurst would put it).

Hey! Don't tell everyone what Las is!

Kidding aside, I never have had hard time understanding the concept in which Wiltun operates in, or Ruathym. My mage toon who at times is heavily carrying magical enchantments rarely has any on in Ruathym areas where there are people. Or at least ones that are visible to the naked eyes. If she was constantly flamboyantly displaying her magic there, she would most likely been banned already. Unlike in Amia where she can just keep going with her circle ritual castings in middle of a crowd.

I like the fact that Wiltun is so inclusive and does not have that black-white standing in regards of alignment. Gives far more room for interaction and character development.

Not to sidetrack this even more, but how are clerics generally regarded in Wiltun/Careigh?

Judging from Roland of Valkur being a relatively prominent NPC, who stands outside the Keep itself, their view on priests is generally 'ok'. Unless you're some kind of slutty, filthy Velsharran priest. Then they're more likely to burn you on a stake.

Basically yeah. At least, they like clerics when they need a healer. But when they have shiny buffs blaring they tend to be a bit on the leery side. Caraigh is a bit worse about, particularly due to past events.

What is said about the Wiltun crew is accurate based upon my brief experience when someone asked me to get involved in Caraigh roleplay. I kept getting pushed in their direction by PCs and NPCs alike, and then was told by them to stop meddling and it all ended there. Not fun for me, but it is fitting and IC.

Yeah, it was that message that deterred me the most in the end, too. Takes away a good part of the fun for me, especially so when it seems to be OOC pushing as much as it is IC, which is why I asked for the OOC clarifications and am glad I got them. Helps me know where and what to prioritize for myself. To each their own indeed! Come hang out with me Yossarin! We can create an awesome good guy faction.

I would like to point out the reason for that is because Caraigh is hard-core mode, and the rest of amia is kind of soft-core hello kitty island adventure.

NPC guards died in a undead attack perma killed, PC adventures ran into buildings in the mill to power nap to regain spells undead followed them in and perma killed somemore NPC town folk, town folk wander outside the walls at night and get ripped apart by undead....perma dead.

Everywhere else that's not the case when a NPC dies you drop a raise scroll on it then have a BBQ picnic and share a beer laughing about how he totally just got shanked, on Caraigh we collect the dead and burn them and toss the ashes over the cliff into the sea so they don't reanimate and kill everyone.
We understand its why our actions seem like such a shock but its because PCs are not used to how different Caraigh is compared to everything else its why we took the stance of if your not working with us, your working against us as we cant have you dicking around and causing lasting harm and getting our people killed.

corypx wrote:

Everywhere else that's not the case when a NPC dies you drop a raise scroll on it...

That is not accurate. I have seen (and heard of in other cases) NPCs not being able to be raised in other areas, even in the 'softcore kitty hugger' island of Amia.

Naivatkal wrote:

corypx wrote:

Everywhere else that's not the case when a NPC dies you drop a raise scroll on it...

That is not accurate. I have seen (and heard of in other cases) NPCs not being able to be raised in other areas, even in the 'softcore kitty hugger' island of Amia.

To my recollection from the time that I have been on Caraigh no NPCs have successful be raised from the dead. So its kind of like a 100% failure rate and we like people to know that is the type of setting they are wishing to get involved in so if they make a massive mistake that causes people to die they will be held accountable IC for it.

Elorathall wrote:

Not to sidetrack this even more, but how are clerics generally regarded in Wiltun/Careigh?

My cleric (part of a good-guy faction) made sure he understood the rules first thing. He's been accepted into the community because of knowing the rules and working within those very strict confines. He's a physician so he's more skilled in the mundane arts but clerics aren't all about heal spells imho. Course it would depend on the deity too. See Richard_Edmund's post, lol.

@ redemption, Drusus would say that everyone deserves that chance. Even if they aren't genuine about it, there is the chance they would /become/ genuine.

But, it's not easy since no matter how hard your currently evil character tries to redeem themselves the good guys make it difficult, sometimes impossible. That's right. The good guys. Surprised the hell out of me.

In which case, a good-guy faction shouldn't be all about getting rid of the evil types. Something that I think the Doomguides are doing really well (thank you LastDragonRider!). The faction needs something to drive them besides 'Down with Evil!' Something interesting for the times the entire island isn't under attack from whatever crazy-creepy thing the DM's come up with.

Elorathall wrote:

Not to sidetrack this even more, but how are clerics generally regarded in Wiltun/Careigh?

I'll be writing a thing about this when I get back.

You're supposed to be outside. Go outside. Bad BoB.

At Coryx reply on softcore / hardcore. In my opinion, Caraigh is not that much different than most other serious mode plots. There are consequences involved even in "soft-core hello kitty island" of Amia. And in Caraigh, you do have the benefit of being able to be exclusive if need be. It is hard to get into an island which has all the routes to it through Wiltun and are guarded by Wiltun guards.

Let's try not to quibble too much over Corypx's choice of epithet for describing non-Caraigh stuff. Let me lay it out for you this way: if an NPC dies, not only do they stay dead, but our PCs have to clean up the mess. We take the flak, we get another setback against progressivism, we have that much more trouble getting the next lot involved. You guys are free to come and go but our guys kinda have to live there, y'know? It's a responsibility. Now we try very hard to be inclusive because yeah it's roleplay, we like having people around for that. But our characters have to take their jobs very seriously or else consequences and that means anyone who steps out of line or just has a bad run of luck and we can't keep things chill, gets the banhammer (well the outcast hammer). It's nothing personal but that's what the setting demands of us in exchange for the richness of setting we reap. I'm sorry. If someone has a better idea of how to handle it then by all means.

I reject the assertion that I was told to mind my own business because I could not handle the OOC repercussions. I took it as nothing more than mistrust of a "modern mystic" (arcanist gives my PC way too much credit) asking questions about the area.

... What assertion?

Yossarin wrote:

What is said about the Wiltun crew is accurate based upon my brief experience when someone asked me to get involved in Caraigh roleplay. I kept getting pushed in their direction by PCs and NPCs alike, and then was told by them to stop meddling and it all ended there. Not fun for me, but it is fitting and IC.

corypx wrote:

I would like to point out the reason for that is because Caraigh is hard-core mode, and the rest of amia is kind of soft-core hello kitty island.

My point is that I do not think that is the reason. Wishful thinking, but I like to imagine the reason was purely IC with no OOC motivation!

Haha, a somewhat humorous observation-- you're talking about hardcore mode to the guy who invented Amia's hardcore mode!

Wiltun, in my opinion, is a very successful area currently because there is an active, cohesive faction who also constantly recruits-- and because BoB has worked hard to make the environment alive. She met concerns about "lore emptiness" in other server areas with huge efforts to create a dynamic culture on Caraigh and Wiltun.

She's also very active, very responsive to player initiatives, and finds ways to be inclusive for players in the larger plot movements-- even if they're not Jarl Wardens.

The culture and its people can be grating at times, but it's a diverse atmosphere with lots of options for both good and evil. And so far it's the most reliable place where I can search for and find Rp. So that helps a lot!

That's pretty accurate in my cursory examination. Wiltun has really felt like the best area for a while now. It has all the things that other zones are criticised for lackof.

Mr. Hackums wrote:

She's also very active, very responsive to player initiatives, and finds ways to be inclusive for players in the larger plot movements-- even if they're not Jarl Wardens.

Yeah she is. There are opportunities for non-Wiltun characters to get involved with Caraigh, but they need to be damn careful. Resident Evil has absolutely nothing on BoB when she gets serious.

This is how I play good:

What I'm gathering from this is that a guide on magic users and divine classes and how to play them in the setting would be useful. I'll write one next and put it in the lore forum.

That could be really cool.

Active good guy-factions?

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