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I know, a total copycat of "If I could change Amia I would...", but that thread offered many great ideas, so I'd like to know what others think of the current DC system and the idea of allowing players to share the DCs between themselves. Please keep comments like "Current DC system is unfair" on minimum, they are not constructive and serve little to no purpose.

I have given the idea of sharing DCs between players a long thought and after having a short chat with a few people I have to say I'm on a verge. I was a strict no, but I'd be yes now under these conditions :

- No more weapons / armor and misc. DC items (tents, figurines or placables not included. I am speaking of "above epic tier" custom equipables). That comes from a player who does have a few DC items. Such "powerful" items could be very easily implemented in game via. special occurances, like major plots or special merchants (Amarice's djinn). I don't know which dwarf have the boots from dragon skin (?) which he killed during a large DM event, but I found it a great way how to obtain the item, both on IC and OOC level. I think it'd bring more flavour to DM events and open more possibilities to how to reward players dedicated to certain plots / quests and such.
- DCs fixed to a character that receives them, not to the account. (The most critical condition)
- I'd love to see RP stuff like wings, tails and horns for proper races given away for free (proper races means tails and horns for tieflings, for example). Maybe add the model costumization in the welcome room with portrait / voice / head changer to keep DMs pressure level down.
- I'd love to see RP stuff like special races given away for free in case the person who requests such shows lore and RP abilities. It really pushed my buttons that a person who shown lore and his character was validated by the staff was stuck on a DC shortage for !weeks!. It makes no sense and is very discouraging.
- Limitation of one character / account number of DCs handed to another (1 per week? Month even?)

1) Remove all the OP abilities from both past and current characters; refunds where necessary.
2) Remove all the OP (DC) gear from both past and current characters; refunds where necessary.
3) Allow DC gear, but it would not be any more powerful than epic tier gear; ie no one should be able to pay-to-win.
4) Disallow all Fear immunity on items and remove it for all existing DC gear.
5) Repeat 4 with Freedom (or replace it when we figure out how to make it not so OP).

Those are the biggest things I see. To elaborate on #3, I mean 'pay to win' as in 'pay DCs to get gear others without DCs cannot get'. That's silly. DCs are a reward for RP and they shouldn't be allowed to be used to access tier 5.5 gear (some of the armor and stuff out there is insanely OP) regardless of the cost. You should, however, be able to use RP rewards to get epic gear instead of grinding.

Naivatkal wrote:

You should, however, be able to use RP rewards to get epic gear instead of grinding.

Do you mean having loot bin 5.0 items available for DC? I believe that was proposed in the past with no clear consensus. I think it's a good idea, though.

Quote:

- DCs fixed to a character that receives them, not to the account. (The most critical condition)

Oh, geez, this is... just an awful idea - DCs are given to a player, not a character. Sorry. =/

Yus, Guardian. And you actually can request epic loot with DCs, someone did it with a +5 fort cloak (I'm pretty sure). Makes sense!

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

- DCs fixed to a character that receives them, not to the account. (The most critical condition)

Oh, geez, this is... just an awful idea - DCs are given to a player, not a character. Sorry. =/

I understand how it works, it just makes a little sense to me. I think it should be fixed to a character, because the player earns DCs and rewards through the character. Fresh character means fresh start - shared stuff (or stuff fixed to an account) is a sign of the hated MMORPGs, at least to me.

An OOC reward is clearly meant for the player though, not the character, imo.

rewarding the pc doesn't make sense
i'd let people buy other people dc gear, and also streamline the process to just automated.

Buying other people's DC gear wouldn't be a bad thing if there wasn't such crazy OP stuff. Adding more doesn't make things better, it makes it worse.

General rule of thumb: Would it be OP for everyone to have this item/ability/etc? If yes, no one should have it.

Naivatkal wrote:

1) Remove all the OP abilities from both past and current characters; refunds where necessary.
2) Remove all the OP (DC) gear from both past and current characters; refunds where necessary.
3) Allow DC gear, but it would not be any more powerful than epic tier gear; ie no one should be able to pay-to-win.
4) Disallow all Fear immunity on items and remove it for all existing DC gear.
5) Repeat 4 with Freedom (or replace it when we figure out how to make it not so OP).

Those are the biggest things I see. To elaborate on #3, I mean 'pay to win' as in 'pay DCs to get gear others without DCs cannot get'. That's silly. DCs are a reward for RP and they shouldn't be allowed to be used to access tier 5.5 gear (some of the armor and stuff out there is insanely OP) regardless of the cost. You should, however, be able to use RP rewards to get epic gear instead of grinding.

Given the epic loot table needs a total redo because its out of date with bland items with very limited powers and bloated with trash weapons no one or .1% of chars would use I think its a bad idea unless we can get Yoss,Tormak.....ect all the super lore folks to create a bunch of real items worthy of the title EPIC

How would you work requests for epic loot for DCs, would it just be here take my 15 DCs and spawn me my sword and just claim you found it off a dead monster with a line of RP in a request? because literally how epic loot gained now is "I stabbed this thing to death and I found it on its body"

Also only having tier 5 loot gear being direct buy for DCs would put a price per item and then we might see another massive gold price increase in epic loot because the items would be the same..... mind you then could pay people epic loot for DC funding on requests as the DMs have already assigned everything a value so that's good.

Well we do need a revamp on some things, sure, but a lot fo the epic loot is good so I'm not sure how all of it is bland. I'd like to see DC loot be limited to the same strength as epic loot (so everyone is on the same level of attainability) but DC loot can be customized.

IMO, by making a request for the loot you'd have to go through 'something' to get it. It's a request, so it would need a good reason why and it should be something appealing to do IG.

And I didn't mean only being able to buy it. You could still hunt for epic loot or you could request it with DCs; or request DC loot which is of the same power as epic loot but it's customizable to an extent and costs a little extra.

Naivatkal wrote:

Well we do need a revamp on some things, sure, but a lot fo the epic loot is good so I'm not sure how all of it is bland. I'd like to see DC loot be limited to the same strength as epic loot (so everyone is on the same level of attainability) but DC loot can be customized.

IMO, by making a request for the loot you'd have to go through 'something' to get it. It's a request, so it would need a good reason why and it should be something appealing to do IG.

And I didn't mean only being able to buy it. You could still hunt for epic loot or you could request it with DCs; or request DC loot which is of the same power as epic loot but it's customizable to an extent and costs a little extra.

Its bland in that a true forged is all the same...ect we have no flavor/lore in the loot

I know you could still hunt for it but I thought you meant you could only use DCs to buy items right out of the loot table, because otherwise you just recreated a different tier you wanted to get rid of but instead of calling it 5.5 its now 5.3 if you can still customize it with DCs

I very strongly disagree that DC gear should be capped to the same power level as the regular "epic" gear.

Epic gear is a reward for clicking on various masses of pixels in the right order until they stop moving. DC gear is a reward for awesome RP. This is an RP server, and RP should be deserving of a greater and more impressive reward than bosslooping. If the DC system does not encourage RP, if players can obtain the most valuable stuff on the server without ever engaging in any RP at all, then the DC system is a failure. The server's very best bossloopers do not deserve to be at the same power level as the server's very best RP'ers.

(EDIT to add: This isn't meant to imply that bossloopers cannot also be awesome RP'ers, only that the reward for one should rightly be greater than the reward for the other.)

But as mentioned by some players before, DCs are mostly distributed to people who are in factions and go to specific events (possibly faction only), while players of same level of "RP quality" may not be in factions, which means that they dont get any or as many DCs. I understand that for DMs it is easier to gather around faction rather than watch random players, but on the other hand I know how events in NWN work - usually there are some "stars" that basically lead the event and others are usually just sort of following, not really making that much effort. So in the end the DC system feels sort of unjust, while basically boss hunting is something that is equally accessible to everyone.

I've looked at some of the predefined weapons and they are way stronger than any drops (I take it that there is nothing really better than sureforged and warforged, right?). If we would insist on the "this is RP server" idea, maybe any character could have only one thing like this. That would mean that people can get slighty stronger by being "more RP" while still keeping some sort of balance.

I feel that there is a balance to be had, here. In the pen-and-paper game, some of the best gear isn't found by killing a dragon and stumbling upon the remains of the perfect magic item. You hand a few million gold pieces to a mage you know and they craft exactly what you want. Both the epic loot system and the epic DC system should implement player choice in their rewards.

I'll start with DCs. There's a line here between 'I want that' and 'I built that'. If a player spends months of RP investigating, tinkering, and making a special item, it damn well should go above and beyond random monster treasure, even epic monster treasure. That's a significant investment of time and resources to get what you want, and then spending DCs on top of that. If a player makes that investment, they shouldn't be limited to 'the same epic gear everyone else has, but in a different color'.

However, some people may not be interested in such a thing. Or, even more likely, the character may not have the mindset, knowledge, resources or contacts to reasonably make it happen. In this case, I very much like the idea of a DC shop where you can purchase epic items of your choice wholesale. This is the advantage you accrue for grinding RP instead of grinding GP. Not everyone wants wings - I know several players who have a good many DCs but nothing to spend them on because special character-adjustment requests and custom items don't appeal to them IC or OOC. But if they had the option to turn those DCs into, 'Oooh, there's that cloak I've always wanted but couldn't grind for!', I imagine they'd leap on it in a heartbeat.

And while we're on the subject of epic loot, something has always...made sense, but not in a good way. Imagine you spend a solid week running bosses, trying desperately to get the Random Number God on your side, and finally...FINALLY...those amazing red letters pop up over Snowy's head. "Your defeated foe has dropped loot!" YES! You run up like a kid on Christmas Day, rummage through the corpse of your legendary encounter and find...

A sure strike sickle.

Really?

This holds true for wonderforged and trueforged items, as well. It's bin-padding. Plain and simple. If we removed all such items from the epic loot bins, they would consist of...25 items, I believe? Less, if you factor the idea that several other sets are just reflavored facsimiles, like Arcane Defiance Cloth/Plate, all the elemental immunity rings and so forth.

Epic loot should be useful to just about anyone, and that means as little vendor trash as possible. My suggestion is this: Instead of a specific weapon, you get Trueforged, Wonderforged, etc. fragments that you can then transport to a legendary smith of some sort in the middle of nowhere (a quest all its own), who you then commission to build whatever weapon you damn well please. Realistically, a skilled mage, armorer, or mage/armorer could disassemble one of those weapons and use the parts and enchantments to custom-fit a decent weapon anyway.

DC items are a reward, yes. But so are epic items. That's what makes them epic. Especially for those of us who don't find epic drops often, I believe there should be a lot more 'Yes! Loot!' and a lot less 'Goddamn it, not ANOTHER Trueforged fish'.

On to other things. I do like the idea of free customization features for proper races. They already received a discount, but it seems fitting to allow perhaps one additional feature free of charge. Maybe not necessarily on 'standard' races, but don't you have to pay DCs to get wings, tail, horns, etc. when you request a half-dragon or half-fiend? That seems a little ridiculous.

The mention Guardian makes after that disturbs me, though. You have to pay DCs in order to play a Platinum Coin race, in addition to the special request?

Oh, and while we're on the subject of races, in lieu of abandoning the system for now, I think we should be able to pay DCs to remove an ECL from our characters. Feel free the burn me at the stake for this one, but if we're not getting rid of it, let's lessen the pain.

Nalkanar wrote:

But as mentioned by some players before, DCs are mostly distributed to people who are in factions and go to specific events (possibly faction only), while players of same level of "RP quality" may not be in factions, which means that they dont get any or as many DCs. I understand that for DMs it is easier to gather around faction rather than watch random players, but on the other hand I know how events in NWN work - usually there are some "stars" that basically lead the event and others are usually just sort of following, not really making that much effort. So in the end the DC system feels sort of unjust, while basically boss hunting is something that is equally accessible to everyone.

I completely agree with all of this! But, disempowering the awesomeness of the DC system is addressing the symptom, not the disease. The proper fix is to find a way to make DCs more forthcoming to all awesome RPers regardless of their time zone or their attraction to DM events. A means of sharing DCs among players would go a some way towards addressing this, I think. "If I could change the DC system, I'd..." add a function to the DC wand by which a player could give away one of their own DCs directly.

Overneath <---- What they said.

Liz wrote:

...

I am not sure if sharing DCs is the cure, but I am glad that we mostly agree.

I know I haven't logged on in awhile, due to that I normally only get to play a few months out of the year for a bit, but then it grows dreary, cause it's always the same thing. Everyone wants to play the next epic knight, or the next epic evil guy. What it comes down to, how does changing this affect all players. I myself can say for the on and off I've played on Amia for two yearish? Probably only a total of 9 months in actual constant rp time, I've received a total of 11 dc's. I believe the issue isn't about changing it, but making them more attainable by everyone.

It my sound crazy, but perhaps implement a rewards system for logging in. Terrible example, as I don't like broadcasting other servers, but CD requires rp exp after level 9, for everyone after your 7k grindable exp. In doing such due to not always having DM's paying attention to all players, or only towards select group, they put in a ticking system. It is capped at 300 rp exp a day. Not much, once you get higher on, but in the end it is something.

Or in general, remove it all together. Then you don't have to worry about fixing it.

Liz wrote:

I very strongly disagree that DC gear should be capped to the same power level as the regular "epic" gear.

Epic gear is a reward for clicking on various masses of pixels in the right order until they stop moving. DC gear is a reward for awesome RP. This is an RP server, and RP should be deserving of a greater and more impressive reward than bosslooping. If the DC system does not encourage RP, if players can obtain the most valuable stuff on the server without ever engaging in any RP at all, then the DC system is a failure. The server's very best bossloopers do not deserve to be at the same power level as the server's very best RP'ers.

(EDIT to add: This isn't meant to imply that bossloopers cannot also be awesome RP'ers, only that the reward for one should rightly be greater than the reward for the other.)

liz les be honest here, dcs are a reward steeped in nepotism, if you're in you get dcs, or you scrounge. if you're out you get scraps. at least bosses are open to everyone. you're essentially implying that quality RP is directly correlated to DC count on players, which I'm not sure why, but it triggers me.

Quote:

The mention Guardian makes after that disturbs me, though. You have to pay DCs in order to play a Platinum Coin race, in addition to the special request?

This is absolutely not true - "Platinum Coin" is just an ancient moniker for "a DM approved race."

See: The recently approved Gnoll. His total cost was 10 - the cost of the tail. It cost him 5, because half was paid for by another player.

He did not NEED to ask for a tail - it wasn't a requirement. It was his own request.

... Obviously for things like Avariel, this is a little different.

Liz wrote:

I very strongly disagree that DC gear should be capped to the same power level as the regular "epic" gear.

Epic gear is a reward for clicking on various masses of pixels in the right order until they stop moving. DC gear is a reward for awesome RP. This is an RP server, and RP should be deserving of a greater and more impressive reward than bosslooping. If the DC system does not encourage RP, if players can obtain the most valuable stuff on the server without ever engaging in any RP at all, then the DC system is a failure. The server's very best bossloopers do not deserve to be at the same power level as the server's very best RP'ers.

(EDIT to add: This isn't meant to imply that bossloopers cannot also be awesome RP'ers, only that the reward for one should rightly be greater than the reward for the other.)

I'd love to agree with this, but sadly I can't...

Epic gear is a reward everybody can get, if you are atleast a little bit skilled and have some free time, you can get it sooner or later.
DCs on the other hand you must get from DM. You can play an excellent, amazing, stunning RP (not saying I do ofc

), but when there is no DM to see it, you can only have a... feeling of satisfaction?
I understand that DMs don't have time for every player, but in some cases it leads to favoritism.
I've been playing here for years, got maybe 10 DCs overall? And got every one of those just by standing near famous character. My personal RP with friends was never rewarded in any way, even when we were waving around with DC sticks like ... :oops:

I'm not really sure, but when DM is finished with work (I believe they got plenty of work on the module), they watch RP of some player they know rather than watching/playing with players that have no real name on server.

I'm not hating on dms btw. There is no hidden sarcasm or whining, just telling my point of view.

(Sorry for bad english)

Liz wrote:

I very strongly disagree that DC gear should be capped to the same power level as the regular "epic" gear......

I agree with Liz here. DC requests should be top shelf. Capping power of DC items at epic loot levels is just going to provide the wrong incentives and motivations.

As to the nepotism charge, I'm not convinced it's anything more than fishing where the fish are. In my limited factional experience there's a lot of great roleplay going on out there. Then again, I'm not one of the "in" crowd so maybe I'm being naive.

maglorine wrote:

Liz wrote:

I very strongly disagree that DC gear should be capped to the same power level as the regular "epic" gear......

I agree with Liz here. DC requests should be top shelf. Capping power of DC items at epic loot levels is just going to provide the wrong incentives and motivations.

I dislike DC 'items' for various reasons, but the main reason is :

TormakSaber wrote:

An OOC reward is clearly meant for the player though, not the character, imo.

It's an OOC reward. An OOC currency, if you like, to get fancy stuff like super-shiny wings or badass unique tail. Or a pink tent. It should not serve as a "pay to win" (don't take this literally. But then again, items do play a large role in the end-game).

TormakSaber wrote:

Quote:

- DCs fixed to a character that receives them, not to the account. (The most critical condition)

Oh, geez, this is... just an awful idea - DCs are given to a player, not a character. Sorry. =/

maglorine wrote:

Liz wrote:

I very strongly disagree that DC gear should be capped to the same power level as the regular "epic" gear......

I agree with Liz here. DC requests should be top shelf. Capping power of DC items at epic loot levels is just going to provide the wrong incentives and motivations.

What wrong incentives and motivations are you referring to? I am hard-pressed to see a reason why DC loot should be more powerful than epic loot. DC being equal to epic in power means that no one is getting hurt and everyone has a chance to obtain said power; you can either RP your ass off (which people already do) and get DCs or you can grind for it (which people already do). The issue is when people are using DCs to request astounding gear.

DC loot (and abilities) is how we have gotten into a lot of the messes we have with balancing. 'Everyone' gets fear immunity, freedom, etc. There are armors out there with 7+ powers on them, that's crazy. Curbing this does a lot for helping make balancing and development far easier.

The reason why is as I said above, Naivy: this server, being an RP server, should reward awesome RP more highly than anything else, and bossrunning is not RP.

OpenTheRift, I totally agree with you that the way DCs are distributed is inherently and massively flawed. But the answer is to reform the way they're distributed, not to devalue the system completely.

So being monster slayer is not roleplay? :twisted:

You cant win and make everyone happy it just a fact of life. I think the DC system has its flaws but the current flaws are better then not having it.

Option A. Remove DC's
Outcome 1.Noone gets anything custom ever again so everyone are now clone troopers. (( making the server very plain and giving more reason for players to go else where))
Outcome 2. All things that cost DCs are now free and everyone can request anything and if the DMs can see your thread to approve it before it gets sunk down 2 pages with a large influx of now free requests you can have it.

Option B. Keep dream coins
Outcome 1. keep things the same and they well..... stay the same. ((good/bad, what ever people think))
Outcome 2. Alter DC rules/try and fix viewed flaws such as being able to give them to players, or just remove the limit of how much you can on others requests, put more focus on finding DMs ((should help correct DC dead zone times...ect))

Nalkanar wrote:

So being monster slayer is not roleplay? :twisted:

I didn't repeat myself, but I said above that I believe that awesome bossrunners can also be awesome RPers, sure. I've known lots of hard-core bossrunners whose RP I've respected deeply. But their RP should be valued more highly by an RP server than their skills at bossrunning.

Unfortunately that still contributes to a pay-to-win sort of mentality and atmosphere, the same as it has been. And, again, it makes balance a nightmare.

Last edited by maglorine on Fri, Jan 22 2016, 21:56 PM, edited 1 time in total.

Naivatkal wrote:

What wrong incentives and motivations are you referring to?

Well, what I was thinking of is that some players invest time and effort role playing the forging or acquisition of let's say a unique and wondrous sword that turns into a DC request. If you made Epic Loot the power cap then guess what, the most powerful sword in the land of that type is available for sale in the local market stall with posters everywhere advertising its availability. Repeat that with every item and what does that do to creativity?

Edit: Also what do you do about items that do not have a corresponding Epic Loot drop?

^^^

So very +1, Maglorine.

Naivatkal wrote:

Unfortunately that still contributes to a pay-to-win sort of mentality and atmosphere, the same as it has been. And, again, it makes balance a nightmare.

Naiv, I am not going to say mistakes weren't made, but all in all - I think you should afford a little more good faith to the DM team here. You have a very "sky is falling" attitude about every problem I see you talk about, and rarely do you have good solutions that aren't razing with fire.

maglorine wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

What wrong incentives and motivations are you referring to?

Well, what I was thinking of is that some players invest time and effort role playing the forging or acquisition of let's say a unique and wondrous sword that turns into a DC request. If you made Epic Loot the power cap then guess what, the most powerful sword in the land of that type is available for sale in the local market stall with posters everywhere advertising its availability. Repeat that with every item and what does that do to creativity?

Edit: Also what do you do about items that do not have a corresponding Epic Loot drop?

Epic loot tables have no physical resistance, no basic DR, limited Regeneration, no weapons with different elemental types((al physical if I recall)) no spell slots,.....ect as I said before the epic loot table in bland because they staff focus on making the more neat/custom items in the tables more people have a chance of seeing/using.

Simply put to fix the problem the staff needs to treat this game like I think it was Skyrim /oblivion where a item has a set number of power slots and each effect costs a set amount and just have the requests have to add up.

Chest armor has say 20 power slots, we have chest armor with +5AC,32SR and 5/magic. each point of AC is 2 power, 32SR is 5 and 5/ resistance is 5. totalling your limit of 20 powers, then set up the math for all the other stuff like regen...ect and if someone requests a chest armor with 5/ resistance to fire, cold, acid and electric Sure that's fine its in the 20 power slot limit because its each worth 5.

((((Note that was just random numbers and values and would not be the used ones as I wished to get the point across)))))

TormakSaber wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

Unfortunately that still contributes to a pay-to-win sort of mentality and atmosphere, the same as it has been. And, again, it makes balance a nightmare.

Naiv, I am not going to say mistakes weren't made, but all in all - I think you should afford a little more good faith to the DM team here. You have a very "sky is falling" attitude about every problem I see you talk about, and rarely do you have good solutions that aren't razing with fire.

Whoops that's not what I meant, sorry that it came off that way! I didn't mean to imply a lack of faith, I just used the wrong wording. I should say that when I said 'makes balance a nightmare' I mean that when more and more DC stuff gets added you have to account for it; and in some cases when a 'seal' is broken then you'll see more of that thing which makes it hard to remove (ie like with talks of Freedom).

I don't want to just hack stuff out (as I've said often), I definitely think that things need to be approached correctly and that the issues need to be fixed from one end (like fixing why an item property is seen as being so needed, then addressing the property itself) before tackling what's trying to be rebalanced. I forget sometimes that a good portion of what I talk about also happens in other channels, so it gets lost and I mentally assume it's all been seen and 'everyone knows it' heh (and sometimes I just fail to put my cohesive thoughts down).

Frankly I think DCs are a neat idea but I'd personally do away with them. The people with the most are usually just faction leaders and those near them. While I understand why that is, that leaves out people not actively involving themselves I'm the major cities for an incentive that should probably be aired around further.

maglorine wrote:

Naivatkal wrote:

What wrong incentives and motivations are you referring to?

Well, what I was thinking of is that some players invest time and effort role playing the forging or acquisition of let's say a unique and wondrous sword that turns into a DC request. If you made Epic Loot the power cap then guess what, the most powerful sword in the land of that type is available for sale in the local market stall with posters everywhere advertising its availability. Repeat that with every item and what does that do to creativity?

Edit: Also what do you do about items that do not have a corresponding Epic Loot drop?

Liz wrote:

^^^

So very +1, Maglorine.

Wh-...but I ju-...with my p-...and I s-...the....

*weeps, silent and alone, in the corner*

On a more serious note I may as well start tossing around more ideas in the wind, here. Is there any way we could distinguish between Roleplaying awards and Goal rewards? A discrepancy between roleplaying with others and working toward your own goals?

Here's the thing about Amia. We're becoming a lot more insular with our roleplay and, ironically, that's engendered a lot of amazing roleplay on its own. Look at all the lore, rituals and examples we've created for Pale Masters, Dragon Disciples, Paladins and more. But when you actually go through with those processes, you're rewarded...how? Perhaps a DC if a DM is actually there watching you complete them? Otherwise, you just get the same benefits as someone who took levels in the class and laughed their way to the bank. PC Stories is This Concept: The Forum.

In short, if you're spending time with your factionmates or hanging out in hubs, or even just having a chat with folks on a roadside, have some 'Impersonal DCs' to spend on more minor rewards, possibly cosmetics or even just the XP/GP expenditures we have as a universal function now.

But if you're actively working on expanding your character, and using Amia's lore to do it, you should have something worthy of the time and effort you spent during that process, whether you're custom-building an epic item or carving out a pentagram to earn your wings. Moreover, anyone assisting or instructing you should be rewarded as well, because no one should be able to do things like this as a purely solo effort, even if the cooperative aspect is just asking someone about theory. This would make loremonkey characters a valuable commodity, incidentally.

If I could change DC system I would...

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