That is a good point to make, though perhaps in a more constructive way. This is a role playing server, not everyone wants to play the epic adventurer who goes out and commits genocide as a means to pass the time or for profit. We should be catering to nearly all forms of RP, making alternatives to endless slaughtering worthwhile, not pointless.
After seeing this thread explode, I opted to make a character that would do just that. Flower hasn't killed, hasn't had a summon kill, and hasn't had her familiar kill anything since the orc cave at like level 4 ish. She turns invisible, groups with people she meets, RP's and eats the DC's for XP (I average about 1 a day despite not being in any factions), and basically just wander around while chatting people up about anything in particular. Since I never cast anything offensive (after I cast it once or twice to see what it looks like anyway) people actually send me tells asking if I'm a multiboxed buffbot or if my 'plan' for the character is to just be a level 30 wizard buffbot, because I don't summon, nuke, or do anything becides cast buffs, pull out my chair, and watch the 'men' fight.
I'm ECL 17 now, this is with the XP penalty for the favored class thing so any grouping I do is substantially less efficient than normal. The character was made on the 26th of January but didn't see much play until my request went in.
So what's the truth? You can level just fine without being an "epic adventurer who goes out and commits genocide as a means to pass the time or for profit" or using the job system. It's just a little slower then making some razor optimized grinding machine, but by no means is it difficult or boring.
i mean, you think grouping with others and/or rp is boring?
what are you doing then?
Larsaan wrote:
That's still hunting for xp, though, it's just not you dealing the killing blows. That is literally how a lot of mages level, minus the non-summoning.
And if you really get a dream coin every day you don't know how insanely lucky (or favored) you are.
check the DM board check the PC notice board. follow goings on and be there when stuff goes down. attend advertised parties. attend lectures. attend sermons. go do stuff in game besides standing at a juice press.
i have one character in a faction and have exactly one DC for RPing with that faction. everything else is from other DM's and the vast majority of that is for conversations with people in game and in character. most of them unrelated to actual events. I mean, i got a DC for threatening to run a kobold in the bendir dale election just so more halflings would take the thing seriously and almost all of that was on the forums.
just go DO things and you get DC's. shits easy and fun. i'd likely be able to level 1-30 through just DC's in a few months if I actually gave enough of a shit to do it.
Joined: 23 Sep 2012 Location: Western Australia (+8 GMT)
My point was for people who wanted to level using the job system. As in, no adventure at all, not even going out to hunt goblins for a few scraps of gold, but just working to master a trade.
_________________ Elwyn Sabel - Laura Jarshall - Mordoc Ebonhand
check the DM board check the PC notice board. follow goings on and be there when stuff goes down. attend advertised parties. attend lectures. attend sermons. go do stuff in game besides standing at a juice press.
i have one character in a faction and have exactly one DC for RPing with that faction. everything else is from other DM's and the vast majority of that is for conversations with people in game and in character. most of them unrelated to actual events. I mean, i got a DC for threatening to run a kobold in the bendir dale election just so more halflings would take the thing seriously and almost all of that was on the forums.
just go DO things and you get DC's. shits easy and fun. i'd likely be able to level 1-30 through just DC's in a few months if I actually gave enough of a shit to do it.
My point is that you're lucky to both play in a time slot with a lot of DMs and other players online, and consistently be noticed by DMs. The only way I can play at those hours is to stay up until the break of dawn (which I sometimes do, but I've never pretended to have healthy sleeping habits). If I were to log on during what is regular daytime for me, there'd be half a handful of other people online, nevermind a DM.
And my point about hiding while in a party being hunting xp stands. In fact, I'd say that's far more of an exploit than using jobs to level. At least with jobs your character is actually doing something.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
Really though, people will find the easiest route no matter the situation. Especially something as tedious as "grinding". I think the person that said "Go out, do stuff, get DC's, talk to people, and have fun while leveling" was on the right track.
Really though, people will find the easiest route no matter the situation. Especially something as tedious as "grinding". I think the person that said "Go out, do stuff, get DC's, talk to people, and have fun while leveling" was on the right track.
Pre-cap RP stuff is really fun. You really do get some of the best random RP when you just walk into people you might never encounter otherwise. There are a lot of places on this server that are pretty isolationist, so when you make a new character and get to meet these people, and then get brought into those new locations and get to meet those groups, well, you might not have gotten the chance to do that in the old system because some people just hung around orchards and juice presses and could essentially hit the level cap without ever leaving their 'faction' hub.
Not to mention the good times had by all when you and random level 13 paladin/fighter/dwarven-defender trainwreck-of-a-build that you just met stumble into three necromancers with spooky skeletons.
Or you meet 20 odd people getting on the desert bus and hey you got some RP to do.
Because none of that happens when you're sitting in an orchard jucing.
Yes, juicing apples is literally the only thing anyone could do with the job system, ever.
Yes, some people did boring powergrinds to 30 without ever interacting with anyone. It's the same thing with hunting, some people just grind on autopilot without any interesting RP whatsoever, sometimes even completely ignoring other people who show up. Is that any better? Some people actually roleplayed their jobs and got something out of that, and before you say "well you can still do that", you could also still go do all the stuff you mentioned if hunting xp got removed.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
I think the fundamental reason this update fucks over the job system is that we're playing a video game.
And now we have an entire crafting system that is worthless because it creates almost 0 objects that are actually useful, and it can't be used for any decent experience.
I don't play on Amia just to write stories and role play - there are other places for that. I play for the combination of the role play and for the fact that I get to play a fun videogame at the same time.
Using this job system currently is just a waste of my time as a player.
I for one have only just now come to understand what exploit was being spoken of - and I've never done it, myself, because I didn't know it existed. But I agree that there was apparently an exploit with the job system. But the way I, and some others (I don't know how many) used it, was we'd just harvest or craft our stuff, or mine or whatever we're doing, wait for the cooldown, talk to people, and take a long time to get exp. Without the exploit the exp gain was actually quite modest, at least for orcharding. It took me maaaaannnnny hours to reach level 10ish on Berlin, my formerly pacifist wizard, even longer than it took my cleric Osiris to reach his current level of 18.
Now the job system does even less for characters whose stories are based around NOT being violent.
Lastly, the job system in the past, was said to not be touched because it was a huge overhaul and the entire thing was complicated and the only way they'd adjust it was if they overhauled it all because it's so complex and needs to be redone.
Obviously it's not that complex after all.
Therefore I would suggest simply overhauling the job system.
Like, now.
It's long overdue and you've clearly shown a willingness and interest in the betterment of the job system, Faith. Give us a job system that doesn't suck, please. That is actually one of the few things I think Arelith does better than Amia - their crafting system has HUGE utility and is a primary driving force of their economy and character development. They even have spell materials that require certain crafting skills to create, and thus you are dependent on the crafting system to cast level 6+ spells of any class.
I'm not suggesting we copy Arelith's system, but we should start taking suggestions on how the job system and/or a new crafting system should work, and begin developing it. We even stopped with the custom requests supposedly because there's sooo much stuff that needs to be done on the server. Well, this has been on the agenda for years. It should be close to the top of the pile of "things to do" as far as content goes.
My two cents on what we should do with the job system as a general policy. Don't go backwards, but please take us forwards from here. Don't leave us in limbo with an exp-less and mechanically worthless crafting system.
And now we have an entire crafting system that is worthless because it creates almost 0 objects that are actually useful
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What can you expect of this system?
These jobs are meant to flesh out a character, not to give you much of an advantage in playing the game. You will not get super weapons, great spells, decent protective auras, for instance. You will (probably) gain gold and xp and some simple items. A few jobs give ability boosts, but those are not spectacular (the jobs are, of course, the buffs are not). You should take a job because you think it fits your character, and perform the tasks because you feel that gives your character a place in Amia. You should not take a job if you are looking for an edge in combat, it will not give you any.
Edit:
PS: changing a few variables is not an overhaul.
_________________ Davion Telemos - Monk of the Four Winds Korthan Isharnos - Dragon Shaman of Thunder Spirit Zamasham
Yes, juicing apples is literally the only thing anyone could do with the job system, ever.
Yes, some people did boring powergrinds to 30 without ever interacting with anyone. It's the same thing with hunting, some people just grind on autopilot without any interesting RP whatsoever, sometimes even completely ignoring other people who show up. Is that any better? Some people actually roleplayed their jobs and got something out of that, and before you say "well you can still do that", you could also still go do all the stuff you mentioned if hunting xp got removed.
If you are saying grinding is boring because some people 'powergrind to 30 without ever interacting with anyone' that's on them. They are the ones that made 'the grind' boring. If you are saying some people go hunting and ignore people that show up and have no interesting RP, that's on them. Are you one of these people? Is that why you find grinding boring? Do people really just deliberately ignore human interaction and then whine about how grinding is boring?
I only dislike grinding at the end, and luckily you can skip that too because this server lets you level and get money via roleplay, so there isn't a problem.
TormakSaber wrote:
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And now we have an entire crafting system that is worthless because it creates almost 0 objects that are actually useful
Quote:
What can you expect of this system?
These jobs are meant to flesh out a character, not to give you much of an advantage in playing the game. You will not get super weapons, great spells, decent protective auras, for instance. You will (probably) gain gold and xp and some simple items. A few jobs give ability boosts, but those are not spectacular (the jobs are, of course, the buffs are not). You should take a job because you think it fits your character, and perform the tasks because you feel that gives your character a place in Amia. You should not take a job if you are looking for an edge in combat, it will not give you any.
Edit:
PS: changing a few variables is not an overhaul.
Yup. Changing XP so what was always meant to be a side-activity stays that, a side activity. Everything still works too, there's no need of an overhaul.
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And now we have an entire crafting system that is worthless because it creates almost 0 objects that are actually useful
Also that comment is bullshit. You can make all kinds of fun stuff with the crafting jobs. You need some crafting professions to get shit done in the game (wanna build a wall? better find a carpenter. Wanna do some experiments? Find an inventor). And some jobs actually make good consumables (heal potions). And make other cool shit like first aid bags, mythal tubes, scroll/wand holders, all kinds of shit. It's great RP potential and DM's look at what you're doing with your jobs when you want to do an event or change the world in some way.
The fact it gives XP at all was just an incentive to nudge people into the direction of actually using it, and there are a ton of jobs (seriously, look at all the jobs http://www.amiaworld.net/about/ds_j_jobs.php ) to add flavor to your character.
And it's great for that.
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Now the job system does even less for characters whose stories are based around NOT being violent.
I still managed to do it. Went from Bendir Dale orcs to like ECL 19 without killing anything. Hit 30 and I've still hardly killed a thing. Which is actually really intimidating for me because now I have a 30 and no real idea how the abilities work because I pretty much only sat around and watched people do stuff to level.
Either way, you don't need to juice to level, and this fixation on needing to juice to be a non-violent character, or that you have to be level 30 when you only want to have a character so you can RP with it, continues to be absurd.
Also I'm legitimately curious, those that think the job system is bad or ruined now, what exactly do you want?
Do you think it's acceptable or fine for a dwarf character to be created, take up the brewing profession, and walk out of runedar a week later a fighter/dd/1rogue with 30 something DR? Or a druid walk into the grove and walk out two weeks later with dragon shape or something? Or a wizard walk to x location and walk out knowing hellball because they did some mundane task that is in no way stressful, insightful, or mentally taxing because it's literally a day-job over a two week period?
"I used to make tables, but now I'm an epic barbarian."
Is that actually how you want this game to be played? I want to know. What do you actually think the purpose of the job system should be? Because clearly a fun side activity that sometimes makes neat items and helps better define your character beyond class/race isn't cutting it for you. So what do you want?
I know that, for some reason, some people want an NPC that just sits in the travel agency and instantly levels you to 30 and gives you a set of +4 gear. I think that argument is utterly absurd considering how quick leveling up actually is and how easy it is to gear out pretty much any character given how much 'old money' is just sitting around in most faction vaults.
I mean, it's like 3 weeks tops to hit the cap, because that's how long it took my non-combat character who did it grossly inefficiently and had an XP penalty after like level 3.
Plus, unlike some games, the pre-epic stuff helps you shape your character. Denying that to a character just means there are going to be throwaway 30's with no investment at all because they just wanted to make a 30 to do some pvp, then got bored and decided to do some exit-scam by hellballing whatever and who cares I can just make a new 30 tomorrow im bored ill make a dex wm next I heard that was good lets make that real quick and then go to the gate and demand to fight X. So then you get a bunch of paragraph-backstory epic whatevers rolling around because why the fuck would I bother 'grinding' when I can just push a button and have everything I want with no 'gameplay' consequence? There are plenty of servers and other games like that already.
Except there is a severe consequence for that sort of thing, and it's a huge one on an 'RP' server. Suddenly you have to invent an 'epic' character with events and experiences that you made up all on your own, none of which actually happened because you just pushed a button and got everything you waned, fuck it.
I put plenty of work into my character before I ever put them in game. That may not be the standard of the server but it doesn't mean you have to shape it based on the average. As I see it, making and getting rid of characters is fine. If you have the ability to make many, you get the opportunity to find what you like to play. What is the most enjoyable for yourself, which is the sort of character you continue to play and grow. On Amia, you get a bunch of characters who have been around far longer than they ought to be simply because of the fact that the players do not want to put forth the time or effort to making something new. You are forced to put forth at least thirty to forty hours into leveling to thirty, then you have to grind up epic items or you are simply at a major disadvantage on most characters. I don't understand the idea that there is legitimacy in leveling in game and dying multiple times while killing thousands of creatures to reach your max potential, rather then creating a backstory. It's a ridiculous concept. It isn't a roleplay mechanic either, it is purely intended to be a grind. Disco even set up a script to give bosses a Diablo-esque naming scheme. We aren't on a hardcore server and we aren't on a ooc restricted server. That's as far as I'm going to go before I start attacking Amian culture.
I put plenty of work into my character before I ever put them in game. That may not be the standard of the server but it doesn't mean you have to shape it based on the average. As I see it, making and getting rid of characters is fine. If you have the ability to make many, you get the opportunity to find what you like to play. What is the most enjoyable for yourself, which is the sort of character you continue to play and grow.
On Amia, you get a bunch of characters who have been around far longer than they ought to be simply because of the fact that the players do not want to put forth the time or effort to making something new. You are forced to put forth at least thirty to forty hours into leveling to thirty, then you have to grind up epic items or you are simply at a major disadvantage on most characters.
I don't understand the idea that there is legitimacy in leveling in game and dying multiple times while killing thousands of creatures to reach your max potential, rather then creating a backstory. It's a ridiculous concept. It isn't a roleplay mechanic either, it is purely intended to be a grind. Disco even set up a script to give bosses a Diablo-esque naming scheme. We aren't on a hardcore server and we aren't on a ooc restricted server. That's as far as I'm going to go before I start attacking Amian culture.
I added some line breaks to make your post easier to read.
I will say that a character who has a story shaped by on-server events, which happened as a result of them actually playing the game, adds a ton of value because it builds relationships and in-game narrative between characters and players. Compared to a random level 30 that just popped out of an NPC (or job system) that makes characters level 30, whose player just wrote some crap on their own without interacting with a single other player on the server or just sitting around an orchard, and then either kept it a total secret or pops on a soapbox now and again to talk about the stuff they wrote in ms word or whatever alongside all the other PC's that did the same, that nobody pays attention to because why pay attention to a pc that just appeared and insta-hit-30, that sort of thing adds little value, and is why I hated the juicers.
I actually don't have any idea what it is you're trying to say with the rest of your post, or how it relates to the job system. Considering you seem to be discussing perma-death, how hard you work on backstories, and 'disco naming,' I'm not going to comment on any of the rest of it.
If you want you can answer my question from a few posts back.
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Also I'm legitimately curious, those that think the job system is bad or ruined now, what exactly do you want?
Do you think it's acceptable or fine for a dwarf character to be created, take up the brewing profession, and walk out of runedar a week later a fighter/dd/1rogue with 30 something DR? Or a druid walk into the grove and walk out two weeks later with dragon shape or something? Or a wizard walk to x location and walk out knowing hellball because they did some mundane task that is in no way stressful, insightful, or mentally taxing because it's literally a day-job over a two week period?
"I used to make tables, but now I'm an epic barbarian."
Is that actually how you want this game to be played? I want to know. What do you actually think the purpose of the job system should be? Because clearly a fun side activity that sometimes makes neat items and helps better define your character beyond class/race isn't cutting it for you. So what do you want?
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
AirPhforce wrote:
Akhlys wrote:
Is that an argument or just a meme?
An argument, don't be shitty.
I know that, for some reason, some people want an NPC that just sits in the travel agency and instantly levels you to 30 and gives you a set of +4 gear. I think that argument is utterly absurd considering how quick leveling up actually is and how easy it is to gear out pretty much any character given how much 'old money' is just sitting around in most faction vaults.
I mean, it's like 3 weeks tops to hit the cap, because that's how long it took my non-combat character who did it grossly inefficiently and had an XP penalty after like level 3.
Plus, unlike some games, the pre-epic stuff helps you shape your character. Denying that to a character just means there are going to be throwaway 30's with no investment at all because they just wanted to make a 30 to do some pvp, then got bored and decided to do some exit-scam by hellballing whatever and who cares I can just make a new 30 tomorrow im bored ill make a dex wm next I heard that was good lets make that real quick and then go to the gate and demand to fight X. So then you get a bunch of paragraph-backstory epic whatevers rolling around because why the fuck would I bother 'grinding' when I can just push a button and have everything I want with no 'gameplay' consequence? There are plenty of servers and other games like that already.
Except there is a severe consequence for that sort of thing, and it's a huge one on an 'RP' server. Suddenly you have to invent an 'epic' character with events and experiences that you made up all on your own, none of which actually happened because you just pushed a button and got everything you waned, fuck it.
Seriously man, some of your post seem aggressive. Tone it down a bit. Its a game.
I'm not interested in your questions - I've said what I had to say. But:
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"don't be shitty"
Saying someone else is being shitty when they question your one-sentence snarky reply...
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"Also that comment is bullshit"
Really?
Quote:
Either way, you don't need to juice to level, and this fixation on needing to juice to be a non-violent character, or that you have to be level 30 when you only want to have a character so you can RP with it, continues to be absurd.
A hostile straw man argument, at best. I never stated I wanted to be level 30 after an hour of jobbing, or really any of the things you say I'm saying. I stated I wanted the job system to be somehow useful to the video game, not a waste of my time. I role play without it just fine. It's not a built-in "rp enhancer".
EDIT: Well please learn from this experience, then.
I'm not interested in your questions - I've said what I had to say. But:
Quote:
"don't be shitty"
Saying someone else is being shitty when they question your one-sentence snarky reply...
Quote:
"Also that comment is bullshit"
Really?
Quote:
Either way, you don't need to juice to level, and this fixation on needing to juice to be a non-violent character, or that you have to be level 30 when you only want to have a character so you can RP with it, continues to be absurd.
A hostile straw man argument, at best. I never stated I wanted to be level 30 after an hour of jobbing, or really any of the things you say I'm saying. I stated I wanted the job system to be somehow useful to the video game, not a waste of my time. I role play without it just fine. It's not a built-in "rp enhancer".
EDIT: Well please learn from this experience, then.
I'm learning there's a fundamental understanding we're just not going to have. I don't think it's OK to have a path to easy leveling, like the one the old juice system had. I also think the job system, in its current form, is useful, lets you make fun toys, and adds dimension to your character beyond race and class but has a gameplay component.
"Don't be shitty" means don't respond to an argument with "Is that an argument or just a meme?" I said "That comment is bullshit" because the comment in question, which was "now we have an entire crafting system that is worthless because it creates almost 0 objects that are actually useful," is actually bullshit. Crafting jobs make a ton of useful stuff.
Also, it's not a straw-man when that's what people are actually saying; Richard_Edmund said back on page 3, "That is a good point to make, though perhaps in a more constructive way. This is a role playing server, not everyone wants to play the epic adventurer who goes out and commits genocide as a means to pass the time or for profit. We should be catering to nearly all forms of RP, making alternatives to endless slaughtering worthwhile, not pointless." That point still stands because it's the core issue here; should you need to go hunting and kill things to get stronger abilities? I say, to some degree, you do, for reasons I've stated in this thread (mostly on this page). There is a disagreement.
There are about 5 people in this thread, and some people won't actually say what they want besides vague complaining or saying some game system needs an overhaul. Ok, so what do you want the job system to be? I'd still like to know.
Lets bullet point what we, as players, want out of it. This is what I think it needs, though I think in its current state it's fine, compared to other systems on the server that are in far dire-er need of attention given the current limited staff.
1. Useful items that can be used in gameplay. 2. More XP then current, though on a timer, so it's 'worth doing.' Such as a per-reset craft XP, worth about half as much as a quest, or an amount that's based on your level. Combine with 1 and you got people trying to buy the cool shit you make. 3. Consolidation of gimmick/silly jobs. There should just be one animal spawning job. Why is 'underdark cook' different then regular cook? Merge that shit. 4. Just let jobs create a fuck-ton of placeables so people don't have to DC them, just find an inventor if they want a science tube.
1. Useful items that can be used in gameplay. 2. More XP then current, though on a timer, so it's 'worth doing.' Such as a per-reset craft XP, worth about half as much as a quest, or an amount that's based on your level. Combine with 1 and you got people trying to buy the cool shit you make. 3. Consolidation of gimmick/silly jobs. There should just be one animal spawning job. Why is 'underdark cook' different then regular cook? Merge that shit. 4. Just let jobs create a fuck-ton of placeables so people don't have to DC them, just find an inventor if they want a science tube.
Nice, I mostly agree.
1 and 4: Not everything needs to have a mechanical use, though, as you point out. Some people crave good looks or a nice toy. Crafting of jobbed items could include the otherwise forbidden armor crafting options, for example.
2: I'd take XP out of the equation. Well, it's what started this thread, but alternative ways to level could be a completely different thread. Ah heck, we probably have like a ton of those already ... maybe I can dig one up.
3: Hmm, never thought about it, but I guess it doesn't make sense to only raise cows or pigs or chicken. Certainly not for medieval farmers. So maybe a push to consolidate jobs in general would be nice.
1. Useful items that can be used in gameplay. 2. More XP then current, though on a timer, so it's 'worth doing.' Such as a per-reset craft XP, worth about half as much as a quest, or an amount that's based on your level. Combine with 1 and you got people trying to buy the cool shit you make. 3. Consolidation of gimmick/silly jobs. There should just be one animal spawning job. Why is 'underdark cook' different then regular cook? Merge that shit. 4. Just let jobs create a fuck-ton of placeables so people don't have to DC them, just find an inventor if they want a science tube.
Nice, I mostly agree.
1 and 4: Not everything needs to have a mechanical use, though, as you point out. Some people crave good looks or a nice toy. Crafting of jobbed items could include the otherwise forbidden armor crafting options, for example.
2: I'd take XP out of the equation. Well, it's what started this thread, but alternative ways to level could be a completely different thread. Ah heck, we probably have like a ton of those already ... maybe I can dig one up.
3: Hmm, never thought about it, but I guess it doesn't make sense to only raise cows or pigs or chicken. Certainly not for medieval farmers. So maybe a push to consolidate jobs in general would be nice.
Regards Ts
I'd say one xp bump per reset to encourage people to pop on once and a while and do their job stuff. Make the bonus substantial enough to want to have at least one job and do it before or after hunting, but not nearly enough to where your job is all you do. It should be "oh im about to level, I can go bang out a mirror, get that level, and then go to cordor and see if I can sell it for 10k."
Also I 100% agree with you on not every job needing a mechanical benefit, and I hope I didn't imply that they all should. I'd just like to see more jobs able to make some stuff that actually has a mechanical benefit, and more placeables so the DC PLC request system thing can be done 'in game.' There are a lot of 'niche' or super commonly used items, potions, wands, placeables, effects, etc that could be 'emulated' or outright made through the job-system.
For example, some people like to plop down signs and make them all shiny or whatever. Why not just let the arcanist or whatever click a sign or job-system-placeable and pick what visual effect to add to it? Would be nice.
AirPhforce, all the things you suggested sound like neat ways to make the job system worthwhile.
I was never one of the people (at least, to my knowledge?) that wanted the old exploit back.
I never even knew of the exploit, personally, until this change and this thread happened. But because I now understand it, I have said I DON'T want it to go back to the way it was.
I said we should have suggestions from the community written and compiled, and then we could vote on some of them, to decide what we should have the new job system become, since we need to make a new job/crafting system.
And you just did that
You never really separated what I said, from what you thought others said or read them saying. I don't want the old job system. I literally said I just wanted it to be mechanically useful in some way, just like Suhjet.
So keep it up with the suggestions and good ideas.
That's what I said I wanted in the first place, so we can decide what we want and work with the devs.
Yeah dude, this is just how I talk. There's one big thing I believe in, and that's don't complain about something if you don't have a workable solution. Obviously this can be ignored if the problem is like mega-huge, but for the most part, I'm just trying to find out what exactly it is the people that loathe the job exploit fix want. Earlier on they said the job system was used to filling 'gaps' in the XP system, but simply wouldn't tell me what levels actually had gaps (and I had just leveled my first 30 at the time and didn't find any 'gaps'). After that it was people just saying things that wern't true at all ("The job system was EXPLICITLY meant to replace hunting in the XP system!"). People started saying they wanted to hit 30 without grinding because standing around a juice press "generated a thousand times more RP than running in circles rolling attack dice."
Now it's to the point where I'm just giving up trying to figure out whats wanted on my own and am specifically asking for it. While it's clear that there is a population on this server that wants a super easy and fast way to hit 30 that doesn't involve combat (or 'genocide' as another poster put it) it's not going to happen.
So barring that, because for many reasons it's not going to happen, what do people want out of the job system?
I was going to go through and respond to all the posts abobe, but by this point there's so much and so many layers that I don't even know where to start, so I'll just try to make a list of my points instead.
-Job experience might as well not exist now. The current rate would require you to spend at least 220 hours of constant work without a single break to get to 30, this is not reasonable amount of time no matter how worthess you think apple-picking is. - Dream coins are not a valid way of leveling. Their distribution is highly dependent on luck, time zones and favoritism, and a lot of people barely ever get any, regardless of their RP. It is not a fair system. - This leaves us with only one single way of leveling, hunting, or "the grind" if you will. This is a problem because even if there weren't as many issues with the grind as there are, having no variety is still a bad thing for the server. - The grind, as it is right now, is not immersive. The scale of it requires repeating content over and over in away that makes no sense from an in-character perspective, in part because it makes no sense that they would keep going for that long, but also because we surely should have driven every monster extinct by now. No character here actually claims to have killed as many giants and demons as they have mechanically. - At higher levels this problem increases exponentially, as you spend your time repeating the same three or four areas for ten levels straight. The xp requirements become higher and higher, but the grind doesn't keep up. It's tedious. I actually do enjoy some PvE combat, but not to this ridiculous extent. - The server is very solo-unfriendly (especially for DEX-based characters), which is a problem for people in low-population time zones, characters who have a hard time finding a party (like if you're playing a palemaster and the only people around are druids or paladins), or people who just prefer a solo playstyle when hunting. This only exacerbates the problems mentioned above. - There is no way for pacifistic or otherwise non-combat characters to advance their skills. Sorry Airphforce, mooching off other people's kills doesn't count. - Yes, becoming an epic mage by picking apples is silly, but so is becoming an epic mage by watching other people punch goblins (so is becoming an epic mage by attending tea parties in Bendir Dale, for that matter). There are extreme examples of all forms of leveling, singling out the job system here seems completely arbitrary. I'd mention some examples of "good" job leveling here, but several have been mentioned earlier in the thread and it didn't stop anyone from sticking to the juicer caricature, so eh. - I disagree with those who interpret the job page text to mean that the job system shouldn't have any mechanical use whatsoever (Amia is very much balanced around being level 30, and at that point xp is not "an edge in combat"), but assuming they are right... so what? It was written years ago, the server and its culture has changed drastically since then, and that line of thinking might have been wrong in the first place. Changes should be made based on what makes the server a better place, not by consulting the sacred scrolls of old. It's dogma, not game design.
There are other issues, but I'll stick to the stuff that relates to leveling for now.
------------------------------ AND THEN I GOT NINJA'D ------------------------------
AirPhforce wrote:
Yeah dude, this is just how I talk. There's one big thing I believe in, and that's don't complain about something if you don't have a workable solution. Obviously this can be ignored if the problem is like mega-huge, but for the most part, I'm just trying to find out what exactly it is the people that loathe the rework want. Earlier on they said the job system was used to filling 'gaps' in the XP system, but simply wouldn't tell me what levels actually had gaps (and I had just leveled my first 30 at the time and didn't find any 'gaps'). After that it was people just saying things that wern't true at all ("The job system was EXPLICITLY meant to replace hunting in the XP system!"). People started saying they wanted to hit 30 without grinding because standing around a juice press "generated a thousand times more RP than running in circles rolling attack dice."
Now it's to the point where I'm just giving up trying to figure out whats wanted on my own and am specifically asking for it. While it's clear that there is a population on this server that wants a super easy and fast way to hit 30 that doesn't involve combat (or 'genocide' as another poster put it) it's not going to happen.
So barring that, because for many reasons it's not going to happen, what do people want out of the job system?
Adding a quick response to this... Personally, I wouldn't mind just going back to the old system, at least to begin with, because I honestly don't care if a few people level more quickly than me (they always do anyway), and the reasoning behind the change was shaky in any case. I wouldn't use the superpowercheese methods that handful of people are using, I'd just stick to the modest bit of extra xp that I used to supplement hunting xp. What qualifies as a "gap" varies from person to person, because people get bored by different things. For me it's everything past level 19, which is why I only have one level 30 character after 7 years of playing here. I don't necessarily want leveling to be "super easy", but I do want it to be less tedious, and bigger numbers would help that. You might think that's the same thing, but there is a reason why most games with an xp system do extensive testing to determine what is a satisfying effort-to-reward ratio. You might enjoy eating one hamburger, but you wouldn't eat fifty of them.
Later on I'd like to see a more "proper" revamp of the job system, seeing some jobs merged, others reworked, but that's been a pipe dream for years now.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
I personally don't like the idea of leveling via the job system. There is a huge difference between our adventurers, pacifists, and peasants.
If you are playing a pacifist, you can pretty easily avoid fights altogether via the cart system. I'm not sure what a non combatant needs levels for. "I want to be able to explore!" So.. your pacifist wants to put themselves into a situation that causes conflict? Just stand in Cordor, or Dale, or whatever. You don't NEED to level, and you don't NEED to go off on the next big adventure because as a pacifist, i'd not think putting yourself into a situation that forces conflict is being true to yourself.
Peasants are all lvl 1, give or take. Peasants all have jobs they have to do.. even the beggar. So.. are you suggesting that Beggar that i stole a coin from 8 years ago is actually a lvl 30 badass? I'm thinking not. But maybe?
I want the reward for the job system to be that our characters invest themselves into said job and can use the skills simulated there in later RP. The prospector can look at the side of a mountain, note the red colorations and suggest there is Iron there, and where Iron is found, so to may Gold be found. When you get lost in the High Forest because the Mage teleported off target and nobody knows which way is which? The Explorer has a good sense of direction, and is not likely to end up leading people in circles.
Now, i do understand what people are asking for. They want a means to level, without having to go murder things, or suck down DCs. I do not feel that the Job system covers this, but a different system altogether, or more simply, a style of events. Most Mages for example, don't learn by going out and fighting Balors and Dragons. They study, they study their whole lives, they attend gatherings where they can learn from more experienced mages, they practice in safe locations. In theory, casting a spell (Of highest level available) could well reward XP. A fighter can learn a great deal from a master, before s/he ever needs to put these skills to the test against a beastly foe.
So why not set up these events? Mysterians for example could start holding classes again, classes where mages actually earn XP. Magical rituals can be cast under guidance of a master. Detailed lessons in how to draw a Magic Circle of Protection and secure it. Warrior types can host training as well, where either tactics, formations, or even just sparing takes place to teach and learn new tricks, or to hone one's skills and speed. In this way our Mages, Warriors and Rogues can train in their respective skills, and learn, instead of painting their way to mastery of tome, sword or knife.
The DMs might be inclined to just reward a DC for this, and that would be great, but id encourage them to give XP as well, perhaps based on something.. maybe the level of the teacher compared to the students? Maybe the job system can even tie into this, where as someone that is actually a teacher (I think that is a job) can better explain the process to students, then just the Master. A Preacher could hold speakings where they teach people about their god, furthering said god's influence.. though i'm not sure that would really give a great deal of XP to none divine types.
Pipe dream maybe, but i think it's what people want.
Edit: All the Hunter Jobs should give a fair sum of XP too, though i cant say i know what they currently reward. These being an exception to the comments above.
Going to chime in and say that I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with Xenos and pretty much disagree with everything Larson said, particularly the part about reverting the system so people can juice again something something Airphforce what you did didn't count dex is good dream coins aren't.
Also, if you have been here seven years and only have one 30 arnt you the proof that you can have fun without leveling at all?
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
AirPhforce wrote:
Going to chime in and say that I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with Xenos and pretty much disagree with everything Larson said, particularly the part about reverting the system so people can juice again something something Airphforce what you did didn't count dex is good dream coins aren't.
Also, if you have been here seven years and only have one 30 arnt you the proof that you can have fun without leveling at all?
Roleplay at a low level is fun, yes! I enjoyed every minute of it. Took me 4 months to hit 30 on my Palemaster. But you're completely limited to some roleplay if you're level 4 with a bunch of 30s. I hate to say it. There can be 4 nights in a row of Undead attacking in Ruathym and you stand 0 chance at level 4 with them. So either you can go and get the chance of getting killed 100 times or you can roleplay the begging of it before the departure and end. Not everyone enjoys hanging out at level 4 while everyone else gets to go do some super fun stuff. People also don't have a good enough system to take 4 level 15s to hunt with you. I know for hell I don't.
The many, many reasons why even non-combat characters would want to be high level has been mentioned already. As for your suggestion for an alternative, it has the same problem as Dream Coins in that they're entirely dependent on luck, favoritism and time zones.
AirPhforce wrote:
Going to chime in and say that I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with Xenos and pretty much disagree with everything Larson said, particularly the part about reverting the system so people can juice again something something Airphforce what you did didn't count dex is good dream coins aren't.
Yes, well, on the flipside I disagree with everything you said something something I am mentally incapable of comprehending other jobs than orcharding something something my playstyle is the only valid one something something anyone who disagrees with me is a whiner something something I speak only in strawmen.
AirPhforce wrote:
Also, if you have been here seven years and only have one 30 arnt you the proof that you can have fun without leveling at all?
No, it's proof that leveling here is so terrible that I inevitably end up abandoning characters once they hit a certain point.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
People started saying they wanted to hit 30 without grinding because standing around a juice press "generated a thousand times more RP than running in circles rolling attack dice."
The part between quotation marks is mine. I'd like to see where in my post I said "stand around a juice press" tho. I was speaking about my own experience with the job system, in that specific case, Market Gardener + Brewer. The character stayed in a popular location with his garden and a camp, and had many daily interactions with a number of PCs that frequented the place. After brewing, the PC would go to at least 3 other popular "hubs" to market the drinks. All in all, I got more RP opportunities from it than from any other "patrol/hunt" my PC's were in.
This can still be done with the Job System, it was only worthwhile XP-wise, albeit slow. The RP is still there, only the ingame reward is minimal. More useful Job System items would help that a lot.
_________________ I play: Frums Deedone, the Green Child Balrig Sootkiln, Blood and Vellum
Going to chime in and say that I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with Xenos and pretty much disagree with everything Larson said, particularly the part about reverting the system so people can juice again something something Airphforce what you did didn't count dex is good dream coins aren't.
Yes, well, on the flipside I disagree with everything you said something something I am mentally incapable of comprehending other jobs than orcharding something something my playstyle is the only valid one something something anyone who disagrees with me is a whiner something something I speak only in strawmen.
AirPhforce wrote:
Also, if you have been here seven years and only have one 30 arnt you the proof that you can have fun without leveling at all?
No, it's proof that leveling here is so terrible that I inevitably end up abandoning characters once they hit a certain point.
I didnt say anything like that. You're the one that says dex is bad when leveling which doesn't seem true as my dexer has like 40ish ac at level 17 and can solo everything in his range, so I mean you're wrong there unless you didn't build correctly or don't use consumables. You also said you wanted the job system to go back to the old way and that dc's were a bad system, so it's not a strawman because you actually said those things in your last post.
Also when you do DM events even if you die a shitload because you're like level 14 and everyone else is 30 you get free level ups and dream coins for it, so while you end up taking five or six dirt naps it's still worth it and fun, ask Dunbak.
And if you have been here seven years despite not leaving or leveling the server has do be doing something right on the non combat front. You're proof of it.
People started saying they wanted to hit 30 without grinding because standing around a juice press "generated a thousand times more RP than running in circles rolling attack dice."
The part between quotation marks is mine. I'd like to see where in my post I said "stand around a juice press" tho. I was speaking about my own experience with the job system, in that specific case, Market Gardener + Brewer. The character stayed in a popular location with his garden and a camp, and had many daily interactions with a number of PCs that frequented the place. After brewing, the PC would go to at least 3 other popular "hubs" to market the drinks. All in all, I got more RP opportunities from it than from any other "patrol/hunt" my PC's were in.
This can still be done with the Job System, it was only worthwhile XP-wise, albeit slow. The RP is still there, only the ingame reward is minimal. More useful Job System items would help that a lot.
My bad. I didnt mean to imply you were juicing by quoting you like that.
I didnt say anything like that. You're the one that says dex is bad when leveling which doesn't seem true as my dexer has like 40ish ac at level 17 and can solo everything in his range, so I mean you're wrong there unless you didn't build correctly or don't use consumables. You also said you wanted the job system to go back to the old way and that dc's were a bad system, so it's not a strawman because you actually said those things in your last post.
No, you misrepresented almost everything. Let us count the ways...
AirPhforce wrote:
reverting the system so people can juice again
I don't want to revert the change "so people can juice again", I just don't care if they do. Personally I'd just use it to supplement hunting (using neither orcharding or herbalism, thank you very much), which at the current rate isn't in any way viable. Someone has yet to explain to me why it's a bad thing if some people are leveling quickly, though. No one is forcing you to do the same.
AirPhforce wrote:
Airphforce what you did didn't count
Not a misrepresentation of what I said, I'll grant you. Still, how you consider mooching off other people's xp to not be effectively the same as just hunting yourself, I don't know. It's the same process.
AirPhforce wrote:
dex is good
I really don't know what you mean here. I don't really play DEXers myself, though, I just threw that in because it's something that always gets brought up whenever there's a discussion on soloing here, especially low-level soloing.
AirPhforce wrote:
dream coins aren't.
Specifically, dream coins are unfair, which is why they're not viable as a method of leveling.
You also ignored like five other points.
AirPhforce wrote:
Also when you do DM events even if you die a shitload because you're like level 14 and everyone else is 30 you get free level ups and dream coins for it, so while you end up taking five or six dirt naps it's still worth it and fun, ask Dunbak.
Okay, several things here: 1) I have been turned away from events for not being "strong enough" (IE too low level) 2) I barely ever see open events running anymore. This is also entirely dependent on being in a convenient time zone and being part of the in-group. 3) Just because you think something is fun doesn't mean everyone else agrees. You seem to be having a lot of trouble wrapping your head around this concept.
AirPhforce wrote:
And if you have been here seven years despite not leaving or leveling the server has do be doing something right on the non combat front. You're proof of it.
Not that much, to be honest. I've left the server frequently in the past, not in a dramatic "my time here is OVER!"-way, I just grew bored and stopped playing. What kept Aven going long enough to hit 30 is mainly the Arcanum War, as well as certain acquaintances. That kind of large-scale plot doesn't really exist anymore, though, and most of the characters are gone too.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
I don't want to revert the change "so people can juice again", I just don't care if they do. Personally I'd just use it to supplement hunting (using neither orcharding or herbalism, thank you very much), which at the current rate isn't in any way viable. Someone has yet to explain to me why it's a bad thing if some people are leveling quickly, though. No one is forcing you to do the same.
Other people do because the system was ripe for abuse and being abused.
I also explained why 'fast xp' is bad.
Quote:
I will say that a character who has a story shaped by on-server events, which happened as a result of them actually playing the game, adds a ton of value because it builds relationships and in-game narrative between characters and players. Compared to a random level 30 that just popped out of an NPC (or job system) that makes characters level 30, whose player just wrote some crap on their own without interacting with a single other player on the server or just sitting around an orchard, and then either kept it a total secret or pops on a soapbox now and again to talk about the stuff they wrote in ms word or whatever alongside all the other PC's that did the same, that nobody pays attention to because why pay attention to a pc that just appeared and insta-hit-30, that sort of thing adds little value, and is why I hated the juicers.
So there you go. It's actually really simple why super fast leveling is bad.
Larsaan wrote:
I really don't know what you mean here. I don't really play DEXers myself, though, I just threw that in because it's something that always gets brought up whenever there's a discussion on soloing here, especially low-level soloing.
Dex is top tier. Generally being able to combine defense (ac) and offense (attack bonus) into a singular stat yields fantastic results regardless of the system. The people that are upset are upset because the AI seems to auto-aggro anyone who sneak-attacks them as part of some bizzare AI metagaming routine and sneaks like to dual wield for sneak-attacks so they can't face tank stuff. So that's pretty much the jist of it.
Larsaan wrote:
Okay, several things here: 1) I have been turned away from events for not being "strong enough" (IE too low level) 2) I barely ever see open events running anymore. This is also entirely dependent on being in a convenient time zone and being part of the in-group. 3) Just because you think something is fun doesn't mean everyone else agrees. You seem to be having a lot of trouble wrapping your head around this concept.
1. Never seen that happen. Tell other DM's when it does as that sounds like balogna. 2. I see events all the time. You can just strong-arm your way into them. While this might mean you have a line of evil monks and blackguards keeping you apart from the NPC's they are trying to protect (from you and the three others who weren't 'invited' apparently) it does not stop you from participating. Look for DM shouts and check the boards, events happen all the time. 3. I mean, you don't level, talk about how slow it takes to level, and are still here seven years later. Clearly you're having some fun.
Larsaan wrote:
Not that much, to be honest. I've left the server frequently in the past, not in a dramatic "my time here is OVER!"-way, I just grew bored and stopped playing. What kept Aven going long enough to hit 30 is mainly the Arcanum War, as well as certain acquaintances. That kind of large-scale plot doesn't really exist anymore, though, and most of the characters are gone too.
Well, start a new plot. I see you on quite a bit. If you want to get something going hit me up or hit up a DM. I'm down for doing stuff. A DM started a 'dragon plot' but I need more bodies to make it a thing. Hit me up in game if you want to get in on it, I could use more interested PC's.
Other people do because the system was ripe for abuse and being abused.
And as I've repeatedly, endlessly responded, the same kind of "abuse" happens with regular leveling as well.
AirPhforce wrote:
I also explained why 'fast xp' is bad.
Quote:
I will say that a character who has a story shaped by on-server events, which happened as a result of them actually playing the game, adds a ton of value because it builds relationships and in-game narrative between characters and players. Compared to a random level 30 that just popped out of an NPC (or job system) that makes characters level 30, whose player just wrote some crap on their own without interacting with a single other player on the server or just sitting around an orchard, and then either kept it a total secret or pops on a soapbox now and again to talk about the stuff they wrote in ms word or whatever alongside all the other PC's that did the same, that nobody pays attention to because why pay attention to a pc that just appeared and insta-hit-30, that sort of thing adds little value, and is why I hated the juicers.
So there you go. It's actually really simple why super fast leveling is bad.
Except that quote doesn't contain a single actual argument against leveling fast, it's just a pile of negative traits that you for some reason associate with people who do it. You might as well have said they're smelly doo-doo-heads for all the sense it made. The only thing you have convinced me of here is that you hate people who don't play the way you want them to.
I mean, obviously fresh characters are going have less impact than characters with a history, but that's not tied to level. Some of the best characters I've ever interacted with were powerleveled to 30.
AirPhforce wrote:
Dex is top tier. Generally being able to combine defense (ac) and offense (attack bonus) into a singular stat yields fantastic results regardless of the system. The people that are upset are upset because the AI seems to auto-aggro anyone who sneak-attacks them as part of some bizzare AI metagaming routine and sneaks like to dual wield for sneak-attacks so they can't face tank stuff. So that's pretty much the jist of it.
Honestly, the balancing minutia around DEX-characters isn't something I actually care much about. Certain builds are obviously very powerful in the late-game. What I've heard people complain about is that at the lowest levels they have a hard time because they don't have the damage output or health pool of a martial character, or the defensive options or summons of a caster, but again, not that important to this discussion.
AirPhforce wrote:
2. I see events all the time. You can just strong-arm your way into them. While this might mean you have a line of evil monks and blackguards keeping you apart from the NPC's they are trying to protect (from you and the three others who weren't 'invited' apparently) it does not stop you from participating. Look for DM shouts and check the boards, events happen all the time.
You see events all the time because you're on at the right times and hang with the right people in the right places. Not everyone is so lucky.
AirPhforce wrote:
3. I mean, you don't level, talk about how slow it takes to level, and are still here seven years later. Clearly you're having some fun.
I did level, before the job change. On and off, in bursts mixed with some job activities, but I still did it. I actually enjoy making alts, it's what I spent most of my time on. Not since the change, though, because with zero variety the "boring line" is pretty much right after character creation. At this point the only reason I log in is to talk to other players, and to once in a blue moon attend a plot Aven is involved in. The game itself isn't very fun to me anymore.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
And as I've repeatedly, endlessly responded, the same kind of "abuse" happens with regular leveling as well.
No, hitting 30 in a reset and a half isn't happening when you do 'regular leveling.' It was happening with the job system, hence the change.
Larsaan wrote:
Except that quote doesn't contain a single actual argument against leveling fast, it's just a pile of negative traits that you for some reason associate with people who do it.
It is an argument against leveling fast, because it's saying that characters that just hit 30 super quickly have substantially less identity then those who ground out the hours leveling up, not to mention the utter lack of character interactions when some new high-druid or 'archmage' or legendary barbarian just stumbles into cordor and knows literally nothing ic. That's the issue with ultra-fast leveling and that was the issue with the old job system.
Larsaan wrote:
Honestly, the balancing minutia around DEX-characters isn't something I actually care much about. Certain builds are obviously very powerful in the late-game. What I've heard people complain about is that at the lowest levels they have a hard time because they don't have the damage output or health pool of a martial character, or the defensive options or summons of a caster, but again, not that important to this discussion.
Lots of classes have issues at lower level. The thing people complain about is 'sneaks' being disproportionately hard to level (not DEX users, as you said) due to how the AI works and needing to fight packs all the time. It's a separate issue. DEX is super easy to level actually.
Larsaan wrote:
You see events all the time because you're on at the right times and hang with the right people in the right places. Not everyone is so lucky.
I see Aven on alot, actually, when im heading to an event or just getting finished with one. Usually in the travel agency or sitting around in Cordor.
Read the forums, talk to players, look for DM shouts, crash parties, get in events.
Larsaan wrote:
I did level, before the job change. On and off, in bursts mixed with some job activities, but I still did it. I actually enjoy making alts, it's what I spent most of my time on. Not since the change, though, because with zero variety the "boring line" is pretty much right after character creation. At this point the only reason I log in is to talk to other players, and to once in a blue moon attend a plot Aven is involved in. The game itself isn't very fun to me anymore.
I don't know what to tell you. I just started and am having a blast. If you're in a rut, take a break. Or go start some plots.
It is an argument against leveling fast, because it's saying that characters that just hit 30 super quickly have substantially less identity then those who ground out the hours leveling up, not to mention the utter lack of character interactions when some new high-druid or 'archmage' or legendary barbarian just stumbles into cordor and knows literally nothing ic. That's the issue with ultra-fast leveling and that was the issue with the old job system.
No, that's the "issue" with people powergrinding with the old job system, not all instances of people using it to get xp. And besides, even if a three day old level 30 character doesn't necessarily have more identity than a three day old level 5 character, they have the exact same potential for development, and no one tries to claim those sort of titles without being part of a faction anyway.
Again, some of the best characters I've ever interacted with were powerleveled. Your assertions are completely unfounded.
AirPhforce wrote:
If you're in a rut, take a break.
The little bit of variety that kept me interested in this game got axed, and when I and others tried to argue against it we get dismissed as whiners, powergamers, abusers and inferior roleplayers. No shit I'm in a rut.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
It is an argument against leveling fast, because it's saying that characters that just hit 30 super quickly have substantially less identity then those who ground out the hours leveling up, not to mention the utter lack of character interactions when some new high-druid or 'archmage' or legendary barbarian just stumbles into cordor and knows literally nothing ic. That's the issue with ultra-fast leveling and that was the issue with the old job system.
No, that's the "issue" with people powergrinding with the old job system, not all instances of people using it to get xp. And besides, even if a three day old level 30 character doesn't necessarily have more identity than a three day old level 5 character, they have the exact same potential for development, and no one tries to claim those sort of titles without being part of a faction anyway.
Again, some of the best characters I've ever interacted with were powerleveled. Your assertions are completely unfounded.
I mean, go be mad at the people that were using an exploit (read; not powerleveling) because they are the ones that were just cranking out level 30's in one reset and ruined this for you.
That argument might have held more weight if your definition of exploiting didn't boil down to "playing the game in a way you personally don't like". If this was about exploiters the people in question would have been banned and the system itself left alone.
_________________ Currently playing: Aven Brinyflask Safaya Dalai Riyit Chsera Hile
How long do they want people to spend leveling, and what difference does it make?
Leveling a sneak is fine-with a group. And I've been discouraged from playing after sitting for a few hours on the party advertiser, with neither PM's nor anyone else with a similar ECL on the advertiser . Soloing a sneak is hell. Honestly, these unnecessary changes should be revoked. Why make it harder for people who don't have a group of friends to group with them at all times?
That argument might have held more weight if your definition of exploiting didn't boil down to "playing the game in a way you personally don't like". If this was about exploiters the people in question would have been banned and the system itself left alone.
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