As the title suggests, caster/summoner PM is severely underpowered. Not only do you sacrifice anywhere from 19-20 caster levels for a summon that cannot hit the broad side of a barn, it's also a shitty tank. Any of the EMDs are tankier than this summon, and it's arguably worse than the Greater Mummy (one tier lower).
>None of your summons pre-Winter Wight have any form of regen whatsoever. This makes it basically impossible to play without the Heal skill. >All of your buffs are easily dispelled. This means both on-hit dispel and greater dispel strip pretty much everything in one go. >All PM summons have horrible base stats (AC/AB/Saves, all terribly low), and thus dies in short order after being dispelled. >They are easily banished by mobs and players. >It has power attack, which further lowers its ability to do anything offensively. >If it ever manages to hit anything, Elemental Shield potions annihilate Winterwight. >It can be 1shot by Greater Ruin, so anyone who invests 1 epic feat can basically nullify your comparatively massive investment. >It cannot be healed with potions. >You can only cast it once (or 3 times, if you decide to go full 20PM and lose a heap of benefits). >It doesn't have any utility. The greater mummy has a fear aura and on-hit stun, making it better than Winterwight in most cases. You can also cast the mummy twice, or three times depending on your investment. >The only spells you get with full scaling are Necromancy spells, leaving your summon as the only reliable source of damage. >The only graft abilities you get are vs. Fort, and the final graft is the only one worth using. >If you're playing a Drow Kiaransalee follower, you can never get Winterwight.
Playing this class is miserable. Let's be real; filling both 6th and 7th tier solely with Masshastes just so you can get through a dungeon isn't what I'd consider fun. There's a lot of mobs with on-hit dispel and Greater dispel, so you're constantly trying to rebuff your summon with the little spells/day you have. Not to mention Holy Sword (and any dispels, for that matter) absolutely picks this class apart in PvP.
Disclaimer: Since I play this class, I am biased. Though, playing the class yourself is the only way you'll truly realize just how shitty caster PM really is -- so before you vehemently disagree, please keep that in mind.
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Sadly I'd have to disagree with the idea that this whole class is shitty, caster wise. I've been playing my Palemaster for a long time and I've absolutely no difficulties killing the Undead Pirate, Majesty (Who cast both GR and Dispels), other bosses. As for PvP, he does fairly well against any individual. However, never dueled / fought a Paladin before. So that is an open argument.
1.) As far as I'm aware, true. But that's why I invested in a bunch of Heal Skill Points.
2.) You're going to get dispelled, yes. Palemasters aren't high CR Casters.
3.) If you play a Palemaster correctly, you can manage to get the Stats rather high. But I don't disclose any of the Winters abilities because its not my place to give out that information.
4.) How're they banished? Undeath to death, maybe?
5.) I dislike the Power Attack ability, but I make due.
6.) Elemental Shield screws even some of the most powerful PCs up. Unless you've a Ring to block the Elemental Damage. But I couldn't solo the Pirate it if couldn't hit anything.
7.) It is undead, so Greater Ruin is going to hurt it..
8.) Its undead so.. Self-explanatory towards the Heal Potions.
9.) You can cast Epic Summon once. So without further investment, its a bit OP.
10.) Its pretty powerful!
11.) Spam Horrid Witling? lol
12.) The Graft abilities are rather powerful. If you have a good INT / Fort / CR.
13.) Drows are pretty powerful alone. But Palemasters and Drows aren't a great combination. It sucks they can't get the Winterwight but meh.
I can give you pointers to help you with the Palemaster in a more private way. But this class is anything but shitty. You should've came to the tournament the other day. You would've saw how utilized a Palemaster could get, with the proper resources.
you can manage to get the Stats rather high. But I don't disclose any of the Winters abilities because its not my place to give out that information.
Is there anything special to it besides trick of the trade Undead-only buffs? Negative Energy Burst, which gives a +7 Strength boost (at full Necromancy CL) and stacks with Max Bull's, and Amia's awesome Stone Bones?
But overall, the topic surprised me. From the opinions I've gathered on the forum, all PM summons are plenty powerful for the level you get them, and especially the Winterwight, though I stopped short of it. The other summons were good, though.
The viability of caster PMs are a completely different topic. ;)
Sadly I'd have to disagree with the idea that this whole class is shitty, caster wise. I've been playing my Palemaster for a long time and I've absolutely no difficulties killing the Undead Pirate, Majesty (Who cast both GR and Dispels), other bosses. As for PvP, he does fairly well against any individual. However, never dueled / fought a Paladin before. So that is an open argument.
4.) How're they banished? Undeath to death, maybe?
5.) I dislike the Power Attack ability, but I make due.
6.) Elemental Shield screws even some of the most powerful PCs up. Unless you've a Ring to block the Elemental Damage. But I couldn't solo the Pirate it if couldn't hit anything.
13.) Drows are pretty powerful alone.
All due respect, but have you played a pure caster build? Any decent CL24+ caster can clean those bosses out much faster than Caster/PM, so while the argument isn't that Caster/PM can't do anything, it just doesn't do it very well.
5.) It has 42AB if you buff with STR spells, and power attack (which it uses constantly) brings that back down to 37 (excluding things like Bless, Aid, and Prayer). This is all assuming the Neg+Bulls doesn't get immediately stripped by a mob/player. Low-end AB on this server is considered around 40-45, high end of 50+. It won't be hitting anyone with even remotely good AC.
6.) Pirate is one of the very weakest bosses on the server, and the clear speed is absolutely horrid. It deals 4 damage to The Loot, and ~50-60 on a critical with x2 (5% chance). It has two APR, three with haste.
Joined: 02 Jun 2015 Location: Georgia, United States.
wolfurt wrote:
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
Sadly I'd have to disagree with the idea that this whole class is shitty, caster wise. I've been playing my Palemaster for a long time and I've absolutely no difficulties killing the Undead Pirate, Majesty (Who cast both GR and Dispels), other bosses. As for PvP, he does fairly well against any individual. However, never dueled / fought a Paladin before. So that is an open argument.
4.) How're they banished? Undeath to death, maybe?
5.) I dislike the Power Attack ability, but I make due.
6.) Elemental Shield screws even some of the most powerful PCs up. Unless you've a Ring to block the Elemental Damage. But I couldn't solo the Pirate it if couldn't hit anything.
13.) Drows are pretty powerful alone.
All due respect, but have you played a pure caster build? Any decent CL24+ caster can clean those bosses out much faster than Caster/PM, so while the argument isn't that Caster/PM can't do anything, it just doesn't do it very well.
5.) It has 42AB if you buff with STR spells, and power attack (which it uses constantly) brings that back down to 37 (excluding things like Bless, Aid, and Prayer). This is all assuming the Neg+Bulls doesn't get immediately stripped by a mob/player. Low-end AB on this server is considered around 40-45, high end of 50+. It won't be hitting anyone with even remotely good AC.
6.) Pirate is one of the very weakest bosses on the server, and the clear speed is absolutely horrid. It deals 4 damage to The Loot, and ~50-60 on a critical with x2 (5% chance). It has two APR, three with haste.
13.) no
6.) Majesty? Once the GRs are gone, easy. Snowbeast? FGK? All possible.
Joined: 10 Nov 2015 Location: WHY SHOULD I TELL YOU WHERE WHEN YOU'RE ABOUT TO DIE?! NGAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!
Having heard of the stats on the Winterwight last evening, I'm going to have to woefully agree that it's another one of those aspects of Amia that just wasn't thought out enough. There's a lot of great mechanics changes, and compared to base game Palemasters, it's better; but it's not good enough imho to justify going Palemaster as a non melee build yet: The crit immunity is the biggest asset, the summon isn't as good as Gate by being NE and going level 27, and because the summons are all the class gets after level 10? That doesn't lend any favors to the power of it. It's just straight 'not as good'.
It's important to recognize the source of the OP's frustration, Libris; which seems to be specifically that the final tier summon for pale master, and the only reason to put in that many levels, is literally worse than the one you get at level 16.
Of course, I would argue for buffing most of the summons though. There's a scant few that are pretty powerful and it's really nice; but the scaling is nonexistent (differences of 1 AB and 1 AC tops between 4 levels of summon scaling -- if you're talking Gate, for instance.)
If I wasn't on a tight schedule, I'd elaborate on that; but eh. Since Palemaster past level 10 is the one most hit by this, definitely update its summons first. Might put in a more thoughtful post when I'm free~.
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6.) Majesty? Once the GRs are gone, easy. Snowbeast? FGK? All possible.
Anything can trounce maj after its GRs are gone. I'm sure the rest are possible, but it's severely lacking in comparison to EMDs. And the PMs premiere modified feature is supposed to be compensated summons, with heavy investment in the class. And a 2 apr easily dispellable undead doesn't cut it.
LibrisMortis_666 wrote:
11.) Spam Horrid Witling? lol
This isn't the answer to compensate for a poor CL in every spell school aside necromancy. What can necromancy alone get you? Not much.
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There isn't much you need when it comes to Pvp / PvM. Horrid Witling deals a great amount of damage. Aside from that, Wail of Banshee. With a high Intelligence + Fort and your Necromancy CR from Palemaster you can easily take a handful of individuals / creatures. It just takes a matter of dedication into the School. But, as I've always said, I play Palemaster not for the power but for the roleplay. But I'll cease my comments towards this, sense there isn't much to discuss sense I'm bitter. I'll let a DM and or other player(s) comment on this if they desire.
Don't forget about the spells fear and negative energy burst. The former is a solid spell that targets will, and while not as good as the enchantment school spells, is oft good enough for a dedicated necromancer against those with moderate to low will saves. Negative Energy burst is also a useful spell for draining a target's STR, means -AB and damage for most tanks, and for non STR based characters, oft puts them to encumbered making them more tactically vulnerable.
Similarly, most PMs can hit low 70s AC, which many tanks, especially the rogue based ones, are going to have trouble hitting, and crit immunity means they can shrug off a lot of physical attacks with only needing epic mage armor.
Those are solid points. But what do you do if they use a MB potion and bubbly potion? Dispell them with CL 10 greater dispelling?
The AC/defensive stuff is the most compelling argument, as in my view, that's all it really has going for it. And that's why most folks stop at 10 PM. To invest any further nets you very little, as opposed to other things. The summon, as I understand it, is supposed to be the cream of the crop on Amia. Something that really rewarded you for heavy investment in the class. Or am I wrong? I can't say what the devs were thinking, but hearing junk over the years I've played here suggested that.
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Also to be fair summons are utterly fucked across the board. The power difference between the "good" ones and the totally fuckin broken "so bad they die to a frost giant pull literally every time" is honestly one of the biggest problems the server has.
I don't think a 19 AA with the AA arrows is a fair test of an undead form's tankiness, tbh.
Thats said: The winter wight is very old.
AA's have arrows that just annihilate undead. So yeah.
I've never played a Palemaster, but I've played enough Weave characters to know that a specialized class like that should really get some neat bonuses for sacrificing the cheese of a melee build and going full caster. I suppose I agree with the OP, though I'd have to check the stats on PM casting to actually agree coherently.
A big problem with overhauling the winter wight would be readjusting the balance of every other summon at the same time. That's a mountain of work. That being said, there's some charm to the idea that a mage specializing in Necromancy to the point of becoming a pale master should be able to summon an extremely powerful undead creature. I'd make that argument for mages specializing in conjuration, too, beyond that of a duration increase.
I have no idea how that sort of thing would effect the balance of summons we currently have, though. Maybe something like adding spells to a pale master's spellbook would be easier from a balance perspective.
Not personally played an Amian PM, not invested enough for Winterwight, atleast. Though I've hunted a lot with Ahriman and saw the Winterwight in action a lot, and in many ways, I agree with Wolfurt. He's not wrong, comes on a bit strong, but he's not wrong. The Winterwight's not as powerful as you'd expect when you take it against most bosses. The PM still has to dump a ton of spells to kill any of them, and in most cases has to stop to throw his ill-lasting wards up before most half a challenge fights.
As for it killing the chest, that's not bragging rights, that and Snowy are kinda just meh as far as a challenging fight goes. I can walk in and decimate the pair on most characters whilst AFK making tea. I'm not even exaggerating, it's a routine of mine when soloing, even...
Though honestly, with out the aura, Winterwight's so dissapointing I'd rather scrap it and just stay wizard and get EMD or EDK. They're just better. For so many reasons. DR, fat regen, etc.
The PM himself -can- be a scary force, its defensive abilities are crazy, but again, I don't see it worth 19-20 levels in. Their best feat is level 10 for Crit/Sneak immunities, and beyond there it's all a grey area. I don't see any allure unless you're deeply interested in PM rp, which can be very attractive... In a morbid sense.
Lastly, Tormak and Davis are hitting the nail on the head with an AA. A 19 AA will shred just about anything if she can get to free fire at a target. 50+AB with a potential +20 flat damage from enhancement bonuses and STR cap, 5 (6 w/ haste) arrows a round. Anything would die to that, it's a glass cannon and a damn good one at that.
The WW is insanely old. It comes from an age of pre summon and emd buff. So the fact it is still not entirely useless speaks volumes of its old strength. On that note I think it could use some loving.
I don't think a 19 AA with the AA arrows is a fair test of an undead form's tankiness, tbh.
Thats said: The winter wight is very old.
I could partially agree to this, but tragically, the AA is the only thing I have access to for testing that's on par. It's supposed to be CL 32.
But where a little debate arises, at least in my mind, is that AA isn't the highest DPS in town. The damage done per shot was 25-44. At 6 apr (thanks to rapid shot and haste), that's pretty fair damage, against an undead. I used fire arrows on purpose, as it has a big fire vulnerability, and many things have access to fire, via scrolls or mage pals. It's the easiest thing to enchant and it's gonna hurt it the most. Tested the undead killer arrows, they did about the same- so stuck with fire. Compared to a beefed up WM, or some STR melee type, I think the DPS an AA can put out isn't quite as good. The bonus an AA can use is the ability to kite and such, which I didn't use. Now that's not at ALL to say AA DPS isn't good. It's wonderful, given all its other tricks. But for testing purposes, I didn't use them.
One variable is that the crit immune could equalize the AA damage and that of a melee DPS, and I see that. But by no means, in my estimation, does AA have a damage advantage here. Imagine a paladin, too. I'd give it 10-12 seconds.
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if you wanna test it tonight, have a dm spot us and you can fight various level 25+ animal companions with it.
see if you think it's bad (by comparison) after those fights.
Not a fair comparison, either. Druids can have both their animal companion and EDK/EMD active simultaneously. They also get full scaling on their offensive spells, such as Earthquake (which would make short work of WW, seeing as it has little/no saves and no evasion).
Rather moot point to argue details, I just wanted to bring attention to the class and show everyone it deserves some love.
if you wanna test it tonight, have a dm spot us and you can fight various level 25+ animal companions with it.
see if you think it's bad (by comparison) after those fights.
Not a fair comparison, either. Druids can have both their animal companion and EDK/EMD active simultaneously. They also get full scaling on their offensive spells, such as Earthquake (which would make short work of WW, seeing as it has little/no saves and no evasion).
Rather moot point to argue details, I just wanted to bring attention to the class and show everyone it deserves some love.
We should get some people tougher that unknowingly picked one of the many "bad" mummy dust summons then.
I'm honestly really not a fan of companion classes to fix the problem of the class being underpowered.
Regarding dispel, it would beneficial if every character was treated as character level (30) in the equasion; forget caster level, as it makes no sense to penalize people who understand magic versus people who don't. When a fighter is calculated, their effectively caster level (0) overrides the math, and basically is better than a 29 wizard. Stupid Bioware.
I'm honestly really not a fan of companion classes to fix the problem of the class being underpowered.
Regarding dispel, it would beneficial if every character was treated as character level (30) in the equasion; forget caster level, as it makes no sense to penalize people who understand magic versus people who don't. When a fighter is calculated, their effectively caster level (0) overrides the math, and basically is better than a 29 wizard. Stupid Bioware.
Always thought that, but what's the scripting look like for that? Or is CL hardcoded?
It's hardcoded, but NWNX and/or Spellhook override of dispel (reverse engineering it) can fix it, just.. yeah. Hasn't been done, and seems to be on a long list of things.
I'm honestly really not a fan of companion classes to fix the problem of the class being underpowered.
Regarding dispel, it would beneficial if every character was treated as character level (30) in the equasion; forget caster level, as it makes no sense to penalize people who understand magic versus people who don't. When a fighter is calculated, their effectively caster level (0) overrides the math, and basically is better than a 29 wizard. Stupid Bioware.
Yeah its dumb. I don't know why potions and scrolls dispell based on any number other than the cl of the item
I don't think anyone is questioning the defensive capabilities of the palemaster class. The offensive capabilities do more than just leave something to be desired, however. That said, it's more of a general spellcaster issue than a PM specific one at this point.
You can either be a great meleer or a great caster, have great offense or great defense. That's balance. Most of the buffing suggestions I've read here would create a full-blown caster and melee beast in one class who has a pet on par with a melee PC. PM is ridiculously nice for defensive combat as it is out of the box - far nicer than it should have been, with buffs to AC. Tacked onto this, Amia has added not just a nice summon, but a full blown deathtouch that's not just a touch attack (wow), but uses the primary stat of the character - instead of a secondary, less useful stat like other, similar classes (monk, AA). All with a higher DC than them. I think it's all pretty funny to see the same people poor-mouthing the class here who've sent me tells and had conversations boasting about some of the absurd numbers and things their palemasters have and have done. Amia has already been very generous to palemasters as it is.
From what stats have been stated here, WW seems better than the EMDs I have used. Complaining about 42 ab on a summons? Seriously? You're comparing a summons to the highest of powerbuild potential of PCs and complaining, when most epic summons barely get 10 less than that buffed to the hilt. FYI, typical meleers on this server are roughly 44-47 ab, 45 ab is not "low." Typical meleers aren't powerbuilt clerics. AAs or bards with ABs scaling 50 and above. Those are outliers.
TormakSaber wrote:
I don't think a 19 AA with the AA arrows is a fair test of an undead form's tankiness, tbh.
Well it's a good way to make anyone who doesn't understand the game think "wow that's pretty awful." (Of course, every summon in the game is going to die vs a 19 AA fast.)
Comparing them to druids is silly. Druids and rangers are pet classes by design. They're balanced by the fact their spell lists and feats are awful compared to comparable classes (cleric, paladin). They certainly don't have access to anything as useful as the wizard class list, free ac or immunities to 90% of anything that plagues most characters - so they get leveled pets. Just because you have pets, doesn't mean you're a pet class - palemasters are supposed to stop at wraiths after all.
Lorewise, palemasters are as they are because they're freaks who are so enamored with the undead they lose focus on their arcane studies to indulge their vile pursuits. They're not True Necromancers, badass full spellcasters or anything of the sort. Their unhealthy obsession leads them to spend their time mummifying themselves instead of pouring over arcane study.
Broldi wrote:
The PM still has to dump a ton of spells to kill any of them
... how is this different from any other caster with an EMD though? No wizard summons an EMD or even EDK, buffs it and just watches it destroy bosses by itself. These summons can't even solo sahuagin encounters at the bottom of the sea effectively without action by their owners.
Honestly, this most of this thread seems a farcical response to make a new super-class now that shifter has been tinkered with and fallen out of favor.
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(No tells for Rashad while I'm playing other characters please.)
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To interject on the defensive point (and anyone going from hence), the strength of the Palemaster's personal Critical Hit immunity isn't into question.
The thread here's pretty specific about addressing levels 11-20 for the class -- which, compared even toward a Shadowdancer at those levels, are almost assuredly abysmal; and Palemaster is quite 'explicitly' designed to be taken past that point. It's even got its own Epic Spell scaling. As it stands, though, those epic spells are just about it. 100% of the class' power rests on one level that's only halfway through its progression; and due to it, we end up with a class that targets Wizards in terms of progression that's 100% better on a caster Bard build or a melee tank. That's just not kosher.
To rebuff any imminent "You still get AC~!" arguments; a level 30 Wizard with Fighter levels will almost certainly achieve a better AC (by about 2) without a hit nearly as big to offense -- due to the acquisition of Auto Still III and Armor Skin; all of which the Palemaster won't even fit optimally. There's 'Tradeoffs', yes, and then there's one option being a slow-roasting turkey against its Arcane Defiance plate cladden counterpart.
The touch attack is nice, but is once again done better by a meleer (it still has to hit); wherein the issue lies, I suppose: Non caster ways to play a pale master are superior -- as are 100% of other alternatives in the caster demographic.
Something like full scaling for Necromancy spells enabled at 14 and partial scaling for others enabled at 18 sounds compelling. If we really wanna shoot high, go for free Epic Spell Penetration at a certain level on PM (they're incapable of qualifying on their own for the feat anyway).
It's not like anything you can do to their casting will make them utterly insane; considering a Melee build PM that sits back and reads off scrolls and wands will literally do the job better 100% of the time -- a caster PM gets 10 levels tops~ for all of their spells' durations and damage rolls.
In a broader sense than PM if we're about to stick it to the dysfunction of casters as a whole, though? I agree on a few points brought up. There's a lot of the summons that need a bit of rebalancing to fit the current game climate. Commie couldn'tve said it better; the difference between completely insane pocket Weaponmasters/Melee PMs and completely worthless paperweights is too intense -- and I can pick it out too often.
Tbh -- my take on summons, just as food for thought, would be something like… : Palemaster, EDK/BBOD, EMD/Gate/Companions, Planar Summons/Familiars, Everything else; in that reverse order, power wise. Give none of them KD or Power Attack (might as well just put Dirty Fighting on them. It's literally better. Not joking.).
Balance wise -- Anything that has Crit immunity, just make it tank (Comparatively lower damage, comparatively higher DR/HP/AC). Anything that doesn't, just make it a glass cannon. Undead can be boosted by certain negative spells, so make their AB and damage prior to that buff lower by approximately half what the buff provides.
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I don't think a 19 AA with the AA arrows is a fair test of an undead form's tankiness, tbh.
Well it's a good way to make anyone who doesn't understand the game think "wow that's pretty awful." (Of course, every summon in the game is going to die vs a 19 AA fast.)
As stated, an AA is all I have access to. And in my estimation, it's a fair assessment given what the norm is, as far as building. Point was, it died fast. 2.5 rounds and it was gone. That a CL 32 critical immune summon is gone that fast by any means (aside banish and such), seems questionable. To me. Maybe I'm wrong on that point, and I'm okay with that- but to assume I'm trying to manipulate what people see? A little offensive.
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Dead and myself have tested the Winterwight, and it's far superior to every other undead summon.
We tested it against the Pharaoh Sentinel, Greater Mummy, the Entropic Reaper (Final Death Domain summon), all fully spelled up, and it beat the shit out of them without breaking an icicle of sweat. Which is what it's meant to be, the most superior undead summon. Not the most superior summon in general.
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