AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic

I think it has been suggested before but I thought a thread just about this would be welcome. Is it possible to merge jobs in the Job System, and if it is possible, would it take too long or too many resources from the team to do so?

What does the team and community think of most of the jobs being merged, and the system being made "simpler"? Examples I could think off the top of my head are Lumberjack+Sawyer+Carpenter, Engineer+Inventor, Armorsmith+Weaponsmith, Historian+Linguist, Bowyer+Fletcher, Gemcutter+Goldsmith and Weaver+Tailor.

While it would increase the amount of finished goods, XP wise it would be the same due to the changes done recently, so while it would enable people to RP more complete "workers", it would not cause people to use jobs to level any faster than they can now. It would also bring variety to the jobs people take, instead of having to carefully plan the jobs you can take (for synergy) if you want to actually "produce" anything.

Thoughts, ideas?

I second this notion.

Been saying this since the start of the system just about.

Last edited by Gers on Wed, Apr 20 2016, 2:28 AM, edited 1 time in total.

I'd think all "trader" type jobs should be merged as well.

For the most part, I disagree. Consolidating too many jobs together just ends up making it too easy to "game" the job system, I feel, making it too easy to have characters who can "do everything."

As it is, every character has the potential for 11 different jobs. It's not hard to have characters that can produce almost everything meaningful the job system can make without sacrifices or hard choices. I know because I've characters who do just that. Making it even easier seems insane and, to me, would just make all characters move towards ending up with everything "meaningful" in one character instead of being good at one or two things and needing to interact with each other and the environment more.

If anything, I say the job system needs to remove the default inventories for sale of job system merchants to foster characters getting out in the world looking for resource nodes and "mining" them. Mind you, those merchants should still sell resources, but those resources should be there because players "mined" and sold them to the merchant.

Already it is not too hard to create a character who can make most of the useful bits the job system can make. Making that even easier seems crazy to me. Rashad for example can make scroll holders, wand cases, mythal tubes, medicine bags and leather goods (backpacks, quivers, scabbards). Not only can he do all that, but he can "refine" baser resources he buys off said merchants for a bigger pool of inventory and he's got two "trader" jobs to box them. Combining more jobs? That'd make him insane in terms of production capability. More trader jobs and mining jobs to add to him!

I think the balance is almost perfect as it is. Simplifying things will just end up with people who "do everything" and discourage PC interaction - not a good thing imo.

Agree to disagree then

Most of all I think consolidating jobs would make more SENSE for the characters. With the system as it is, you can be a Master Carpenter and unable to cut logs into planks with more than a 10% chance of success. You can make a damned Excellent quality THRONE and cant cut logs into planks. Or the Master Market Gardener who has a 5/10% chance of being able to pick apples. They can produce 30 pounds of Barley every 2 minutes, and cant pick some cherries.

I have 2 PCs heavily based in the Job System, and can tell that, at least in my experience, there is little to no interaction between characters for resources. And both PCs have tried VERY HARD to hire people to provide them with things they cant produce. Talas, my scribe, has tried ingame signs and forum posts to hire Archaeologists, Weavers, Tanners, Trappers, etc. No one is interested at all. SO forgive me for the frankness MightNMagic, but saying that it it will discourage something that doesnt exist is not really an argument.

Mind you, I am not saying you should change your opinion because of this! I am just saying I disagree with the arguments used.

We've already been discussing this behind the scenes, just so you know. Feel free to continue suggesting things or talking about it, though.

SOME of the jobs could be merged, i suppose. But there are some that at a glance seem like they could be, but really, i dont feel should. Botanist and Herbalist for example might be merged? But.. as much cross over as they have, they are VERY different trade. An Herbalist knows little in the way of resolving parasites on crops, just like the Botanist might only know that a given herb is toxic, not that it has hidden medical properties. One is a generalist, while the other is a specialist. Weaponsmith and Armorsmith are HUGEly differently. I would argue that we need a Blacksmith, someone that makes rough things, like nails, horse shoes, spear heads. But it is the specialist Armorsmith that makes the fantastical full plate that heroes can run around in all day. A Weaver is not a Tailor, and a Tailor may not be a Weaver. A Weave can be any child spinning thread, or someone making rugs with a loom (Or whatever its called) but what does someone doing these jobs know about Tailoring clothing to fit a person?

MightNMagic wrote:

If anything, I say the job system needs to remove the default inventories for sale of job system merchants to foster characters getting out in the world looking for resource nodes and "mining" them. Mind you, those merchants should still sell resources, but those resources should be there because players "mined" and sold them to the merchant.

You might argue that the existence of these default resources is a representation of the players sales to merchants.

Personally, i've never really looked at what i can do with the job system IG so much as what it means as a RP tool. But my main is also an explorer, a job that hardly ever worked, and continues not to!

Xenos wrote:

SOME of the jobs could be merged, i suppose. But there are some that at a glance seem like they could be, but really, i dont feel should. Botanist and Herbalist for example might be merged? But.. as much cross over as they have, they are VERY different trade. An Herbalist knows little in the way of resolving parasites on crops, just like the Botanist might only know that a given herb is toxic, not that it has hidden medical properties. One is a generalist, while the other is a specialist. Weaponsmith and Armorsmith are HUGEly differently. I would argue that we need a Blacksmith, someone that makes rough things, like nails, horse shoes, spear heads. But it is the specialist Armorsmith that makes the fantastical full plate that heroes can run around in all day. A Weaver is not a Tailor, and a Tailor may not be a Weaver. A Weave can be any child spinning thread, or someone making rugs with a loom (Or whatever its called) but what does someone doing these jobs know about Tailoring clothing to fit a person?

Personally, i've never really looked at what i can do with the job system IG so much as what it means as a RP tool. But my main is also an explorer, a job that hardly ever worked, and continues not to!

While I know that Weapon and Armorsmithing are not the same, I disagree with "it is the specialist Armorsmith that makes the fantastical full plate" very much. Ingame, the only REAL difference between armor made Good and Excellent is a word in the description, and the armor or weapon made with the Job System doesnt come with enchantments. I would agree more with the argument if, for example, only Excellent quality armors and weapons could receive the full 4 powers from the Mythal System.

I love the system as an RP tool even with its faults, and my Scribe would make ingame, on the spot reports and transcriptions if it wasnt for the fact that even a Master can roll badly, and it is already an insane amount of work to transcribe a meeting WITHOUT failing sometimes.

I am not aware of the problems with the Explorer Job, but it is one I definitely hire ingame every chance I have. My PC Talas acquired maps of all of Caraigh, some of Amia, and I fully intend for his collection to be complete one day

I love the jobs as they exist for their flavor, their fine distinctions and all. However, the economy doesn't work out. (Though what does that really mean? Maybe I'm not offering to pay enough?)

As an alternative to merging jobs, we could also increase the amount of jobs a char can have. This gives more flexibility and should be easier to adjust than rejuggling the jobs.

There's a couple of ways to do this:
* Simply give more points.
* Change the rank cost progression from 3,9,18 to 3,6,9 or something.
* Pay DCs for extra job points.
* Earn job points via the job system.

Regards
Ts

Minstrel+performer!

archeologist and historian
burglar and thief

I'm all for the merging. Current professions are silly over-specialized.

I'm all for the merging, and some updating to the job system in general.

I understand that it was designed in its current fashion to encourage trade and interaction among the player base. However, the server has changed after so many years. Player numbers have drastically dropped, and as exquisitelyme says, you can't find people willing to trade or sell products/materials, even when you actively seek them.

Just as such things as DC requests previously approved must be reevaluated as the server evolves, so should this system.

But why do you think merging two jobs is better than just giving players the points to take both jobs?

Some jobs might be very close to each other, but many have a reason to be different. And we've already seen interesting conflicting suggestions in this thread: Should it be Historian+Linguist or Historian+Archeologist? Or are all linguists archeologists as well?

Regards
Ts

Ts_ wrote:

As an alternative to merging jobs, we could also increase the amount of jobs a char can have. This gives more flexibility and should be easier to adjust than rejuggling the jobs.

This is an excellent idea. No advanced scripting needed, and we get what we need right away.

Problem with more points is that it assumes people will choose like jobs. I think it should be done anyhow - the playerbase isn't as robust as it used to be. Still, it's a false equivalency to assume merging jobs is the same as having more points.

NinjaClarinet wrote:

Problem with more points is that it assumes people will choose like jobs. I think it should be done anyhow - the playerbase isn't as robust as it used to be. Still, it's a false equivalency to assume merging jobs is the same as having more points.

I don't think they are equivalent. I think more points is more flexible, easier to implement, doesn't provoke lengthy discussions about what exactly to merge, preserves the richness of the job system and results in more motivation for players to implement their own concepts instead of what the devs deemed similar and/or useful combinations. ;)

Ts_ wrote:

NinjaClarinet wrote:

Problem with more points is that it assumes people will choose like jobs. I think it should be done anyhow - the playerbase isn't as robust as it used to be. Still, it's a false equivalency to assume merging jobs is the same as having more points.

I don't think they are equivalent. I think more points is more flexible, easier to implement, doesn't provoke lengthy discussions about what exactly to merge, preserves the richness of the job system and results in more motivation for players to implement their own concepts instead of what the devs deemed similar and/or useful combinations.

The more I read Ts_'s arguments, the more I like the idea of just more job points. Simple and elegant.

exquisitelyme wrote:

Ts_ wrote:

NinjaClarinet wrote:

Problem with more points is that it assumes people will choose like jobs. I think it should be done anyhow - the playerbase isn't as robust as it used to be. Still, it's a false equivalency to assume merging jobs is the same as having more points.

I don't think they are equivalent. I think more points is more flexible, easier to implement, doesn't provoke lengthy discussions about what exactly to merge, preserves the richness of the job system and results in more motivation for players to implement their own concepts instead of what the devs deemed similar and/or useful combinations.

The more I read Ts_'s arguments, the more I like the idea of just more job points. Simple and elegant.

True, adding more job points would make sense in another way as well. People can have many skills, and even be experts at several. Our characters are not "average" by any stretch of the imagination, the concept that they could master more than one skill is not really that far of a stretch of the imagination. More points, means more expertise, also means more people using the job system, which can only add to the depth of roleplay in the long term.

I still like the idea of only being able to "master" only one job, as exceptional as PCs are, but more job points would give PCs a way to "produce" more in the job system if they choose, or go a totally different way and have more hobbies, which is IMHO very good for character development.

Merging jobs in the Job System

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