AMIA ARCHIVE • View topic - Anti-magic sentiment or : Isn't that convenient.

Something that has often boggled my mind, and strikes me at the core, has always been the R.P. of magic fearing. I'm not against it, as long as it's legitimate. I am by no means picking on anyone in particular, but if this applies to you, consider what I'm saying. If you play a character that loathes mages, magic, priests or and other such finger wiggling, I would challenge you to equip only mundane, NONMAGICAL gear. Stop chugging magic pktions and using magic wands and scrolls. Travel only by cart, boat or foot. See how that settles with you. If you live in or represent an area that despises magic, it doesn't very much make sense to have constructs guarding your establishment, unless of course they are of the mechanical variety, then..go for it. Wiltun, if magic is so hated there, should not have a mage shop and a big effing portal right outside. Unless of course it's literally a hole to China. My point is folks like to have the cake and eat it too. It's fun for you to play a magic hating character, but I imagine it would be less fun if you spent the rest of your time getting stomped because you aren't dependant on it. Food for thought.

Yeah I asked why someone was talking about being paranoid about magic, while they were, at that exact moment, actually quaffing 10+ potions all in a row to go do a leveling dungeon. They literally told me to 'fuck off.'

There are a billion types of magic in the forgotten realms, and just as many ways that the magic is perceived in the realms.

Ruathym does hate 'sorcerous magic', which is why, as noted in the forums, all of their stuff is crafted using Ruathymni rune magic and artifice. There is a difference between the magic, in both its use and its portrayal. One is the art of witches and warlocks and wizards, fireballs, necromancy magics, and the like, the other is (to them) an ancient tradition done by rune scribing, and laboring over handcrafted works of stone and iron.

While yes, you do have a nice point about "only use mundane stuff", I think a character can be entirely consistent in their dislike of magic, while still using magical gear. Especially since in PnP there are entire prestige classes and feat lines dedicated to giving characters the abilities of magical gear while letting them eschew actually wearing them.

Wiltun has a good explanation IC of why things are the way they are there, mage shop and portal included. It just might not be super obvious to the random passer by is all.

Edit: Tormak ninja'd me >.>

There are complete cultures in D&D that are wary of arcane casters. Chultans and Uthgardt among several others.

That does not equal to hate all things magical.

There also could be some level of IC hypocrisy at play. In a high magic setting like Amia, eschewing magic can be a huge disadvantage. So even if people hate the massive amount of destruction that magi and magic have caused (arcanum, Arcane brotherhood of Luskan, etc), they might deem using some of it 'acceptable' so they don't get thrashed by those with less scruples about using magic. They may find using potions 'acceptable' because they don't cast magic, and try to ignore where it comes from, etc...

A lot of the 'anti mage' sentiment from NPCs I was running in Cordor was like this, at the very least. Very wary of mages and magic, but didn't mind using a bit if it would serve their needs. And of course they'd come up with excuses to say why theirs was acceptable but other's isn't... (Corruption of principles for profit was a pretty major theme of the place).

And yes, there are different kinds of magic. Divine magic generally has less of a stigma than arcane magic though because the gods exist in the setting, and (almost) everyone worships at least some of them.

Things get even more blurred when it comes to items such as weapons or armour. At what point does it go from being 'quality of work' to 'magically enchanted'? I doubt Elwyn's casting spells on adamantine armour to give it +1 or +2 AC every time she crafts it for someone.

thunderbrush wrote:

...folks like to have the cake and eat it too...

"Arcane magic" - the magic performed primarily by wizards, but also sorcerers and bards: originally not a single, distinct tradition / technique, but a potpourri of any and all practical magical techniques, utilized by a quasi-scientific (intelligence-based, 'inventing' new spells) magic-user - a representative of a broad archetype.

Alternative "types of magic" appeared as a result of long process, initiated by Illusionist of AD&D (1st Edition), in an attempt to create diversity and variety through specializing each class, and addition of increasingly greater number of classes, spells, feats & et cetera.

Whether or not it's a good thing, is a matter of opinion. However, many things were not updated, and "grandfathered" in, going as far as pre-D&D - "Chainmail", and resulting in oddities and inconsistencies.

In our case, I believe that anti-magic sentiment is utilized in order to create a sub-setting of particular flavour, accommodating role-playing expectations different from "Vanilla Amia pseudo-FR". As it happens, sub-setting exists in and interacts with primary setting, resulting in further inconsistencies.

I think it's more telling when people have a mistrust if magic ic and then take UMD for power building purposes.

What if they mistrust arcane magic and take UMD to use divine crafted magic? Or vice versa? It's not as cut and dry as you make it sound.

It usually is. People hate magic then work hard enough to understand it they start busting out primo scrolls horrid wilting scrolls and the subverting requirements of deity rings or shields or armor just so they can get the stats.

It's really common to see magic haters pop an owls insight scroll alongside haste and invis and then a whole suite of pots.

In a moment where less and less players and DMs alike are keeping their interest in the server, is it really necessary to call out things you disagree ingame in the forums, instead of, you know, just logging in, finding said characters and generating Roleplay based on the choices you/your characters think are weird/crazy/hypocritical?

Will it kill mages who disagree with Wiltun's policy on magic to find out IC the reasoning behind it? Will it kill characters and players who judge others' choice of building with UMD to find said characters and confront them on that?

The answer is no (though depending on the way your mage goes about it in Ruathym they may hang from the Keep's walls).

For shame.

Quote:

Will it kill mages who disagree with Wiltun's policy on magic ...

You really want an answer to that? :lol:

Richard_Edmund wrote:

Quote:

Will it kill mages who disagree with Wiltun's policy on magic ...

You really want an answer to that? :lol:

I know the answer and even mentioned it in my post

That being said, in seriousness, finding out the reasoning IC can be done in so many ways, there is really no excuse. My character Talas offered to take people into Ruathym and explain stuff to people during RP for months... With a grand total of ZERO people interested.

We talking about Wiltun specifically in here? I just meant in general with my comments.

There, general meaning now with the removal of two sentences. Opinion still stands.

exquisitelyme wrote:

In a moment where less and less players and DMs alike are keeping their interest in the server, is it really necessary to call out things you disagree ingame in the forums, instead of, you know, just logging in, finding said characters and generating Roleplay based on the choices you/your characters think are weird/crazy/hypocritical?

Will it kill characters and players who judge others' choice of building with UMD to find said characters and confront them on that?

The answer is no.

For shame.

of course your opinion still stands, it's your opinion.

other thing to keep in mind, a large number of characters on the server are actively hypocrites. as in, they say one thing, then deliberately do another. this is sometimes caused by player error (such as someone simply not thinking about gameplay connections and RP consequences) or players that are actually secretly or not secretly sharrians, blackguards, evil as shit, etc, that just act like assholes because thats their character. the latter sort, that is, players that are hypocritical deliberately, is what I found to be the case most of the time. when your character is just a secretly (or outed) evil little shit whom lives to spread depression, then all actions are in character, even the blatantly contrary ones.

thing is, exquisitelyme, once you confront those people about their "weird/crazy/hypocritical" actions, you just find out they are secretly sharrian/evil, and that's as far as the discussion goes because everyone that's relevant knew that since (insert plot here) ended literal years ago.

so yeah, I and a lot of other players have done exactly what you discussed. and it's honestly very boring rp that leads to a very boring answer that's not as well-kept a secret as some people would hope, but explains much more then you might want explained.

Commie wrote:

of course your opinion still stands, it's your opinion.

other thing to keep in mind, a large number of characters on the server are actively hypocrites. as in, they say one thing, then deliberately do another. this is sometimes caused by player error (such as someone simply not thinking about gameplay connections and RP consequences) or players that are actually secretly or not secretly sharrians, blackguards, evil as shit, etc, that just act like assholes because thats their character. the latter sort, that is, players that are hypocritical deliberately, is what I found to be the case most of the time. when your character is just a secretly (or outed) evil little shit whom lives to spread depression, then all actions are in character, even the blatantly contrary ones.

thing is, exquisitelyme, once you confront those people about their "weird/crazy/hypocritical" actions, you just find out they are secretly sharrian/evil, and that's as far as the discussion goes because everyone that's relevant knew that since (insert plot here) ended literal years ago.

so yeah, I and a lot of other players have done exactly what you discussed. and it's honestly very boring rp that leads to a very boring answer that's not as well-kept a secret as some people would hope, but explains much more then you might want explained.

I don't feel this generalization is helpful, especially with the server dying and players leaving in droves. And no, not everyone is secretly Sharran/evil. In places like Ruathym, there is long standing rp that those who play there more frequently have to follow, even if we don't oocly agree with it. Magic is frowned upon for a reason. It can be discovered why easily by asking ICly or researching in the library.

I am aware of the RP that lead to the OP's post, and there was more to it than just magic. The mentioning of a wanted criminal being the one who encouraged a mage to travel to Caraigh at night, a criminal that the Jarl wishes dead or alive, instantly caused an IC reaction. When you live/RP primarily on Ruathym, you don't want to anger the Jarl or be known to go against his wishes/orders. This was one of those cases.

whats with everyone saying the server is dying? it was this quiet after fallout 4 released, and we just had stellaris and overwatch come out. we were at like 30/20 a/b server pop over the weekend and we had a ton on today as well.

just because a few individuals had vocal skype melties and left doesn't mean the server is DYING or that people are leaving in DROVES. numbers are still higher then they were when i started in december.

Commie wrote:

numbers are still higher then they were when i started in december.

yeah I didn't see double digits on A or B for like a week. and even then it was only breaking 20 when BOB was running a wiltun event.

once the election/dirk shit went full-on more started showing up. but for my first few weeks there, well...

i think this post summed it up.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85965

Numbers are way, way down. This is the beginning of summer too, when traditionally people come back for summer break. I get the impression that, like me, they want to log in, but see the single digit player count and go do something else instead. It's sad.

I would say that it is about two or three more weeks till exam period in different countries ends. Maybe that does it.

To original topic:
Yes, it is stupid. However some of it is hypocrisy (of player or character) but part of it is not understanding how it works. Generally it is kinda "cool" to hate on mages but still use all the magical equipment there is. It is sad, but I think that this is one of those forms of conflict, that can bring more fun in game.

Aernoud doesn't like mages. Aernoud can cast spells.
This is my magic. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

The problem with the way the setting is set up, is that magic is the alpha and omega of progress and competitiveness in the realms. A magically stunted region or faction is going to be flattened by any competition with a magical focus. It's a tired old trope, but as magic is so convenient, cheap and ubiquitous - and can be made into the cornerstone of anything from the military, to economics, to politics - there's generally no alternative. Why invest in a powerful economy when your competitor can just get a bunch of mages to use transmutations and conjurations to mass fabricate out of thin air? What's the point of investing in a powerful military when a small group of mages can splat your enemies with minimal effort? Naturally, this would all be very different if spell components and XP costs of spells were implemented, but unfortunately they're not (in any meaningful way at least).

As for the IC hypocrisy, I compare it to environmentalism and anti-capitalism movement. It's a bit hypocritical to decry the world's reliance on fossil fuels while not cutting off your use of derived products and combustion engines altogether - and effectively go live in the woods. It's similarly hypocritical to "resist capitalism" with twitter hashtags on your iPhone.

Commie wrote:

of course your opinion still stands, it's your opinion.

other thing to keep in mind, a large number of characters on the server are actively hypocrites. as in, they say one thing, then deliberately do another. this is sometimes caused by player error (such as someone simply not thinking about gameplay connections and RP consequences) or players that are actually secretly or not secretly sharrians, blackguards, evil as shit, etc, that just act like assholes because thats their character. the latter sort, that is, players that are hypocritical deliberately, is what I found to be the case most of the time. when your character is just a secretly (or outed) evil little shit whom lives to spread depression, then all actions are in character, even the blatantly contrary ones.

thing is, exquisitelyme, once you confront those people about their "weird/crazy/hypocritical" actions, you just find out they are secretly sharrian/evil, and that's as far as the discussion goes because everyone that's relevant knew that since (insert plot here) ended literal years ago.

so yeah, I and a lot of other players have done exactly what you discussed. and it's honestly very boring rp that leads to a very boring answer that's not as well-kept a secret as some people would hope, but explains much more then you might want explained.

Commie wrote:

whats with everyone saying the server is dying? it was this quiet after fallout 4 released, and we just had stellaris and overwatch come out. we were at like 30/20 a/b server pop over the weekend and we had a ton on today as well.

just because a few individuals had vocal skype melties and left doesn't mean the server is DYING or that people are leaving in DROVES. numbers are still higher then they were when i started in december.

Bah, realized too late I had fallen for yet another of Commie's troll posts... Well played.

First of all, sorry thunderbrush for a slight forum derailment. Honestly, if someone minds me writing this, they better mind everyone elso commenting on the server dying. And I realise this almost goes past my boundaries as a simple player, but I don't care.
About exquisitlyme and commie: I could see this as a misunderstanding, but commie, your post really does sound pretty much like a troll post. If it is, wouldn't you agree that it is a bit unfair to post it in a post that seriously bothers one player? Also, shoving all players on one shelf is a really bad habit, since I know a couple of people who I don't think are evil. If they are, kudos to them for hiding it. If they aren't, well commie, I guess your post is incorrect.
Also, I think there are better ways to bring over your point than calling characters people like and invested time into "evil little shit[s]". It's like calling a painting you are proud of ugly. You probably can get over it, but it can be a pretty bad insult if you care about it.

Back on topic:
Now, first of all, commie, you say it leads to boring RP. No offense, but is that our problem, or yours making the concept? It's like saying I want to play a serial killer, who just attacks people randomly. That isn't fun either, because there are rules against it. You have to go through the whole PvP rules. But honestly, the rules are there for a reason. I personally don't like certain rules, but people are allowed to agree to skip the rules. At least I understood it like this, as long as all parties agree OOC. Getting them to agree is either your problem, or you get a DM to overrule player consent.
Now, a non-magical character would be a pretty poor character. I have to agree to some of the post, some weapons or armors (Masterwork, Adamantine, Sureforged, etc.) aren't magical, even though the game calls them "enchanted". A non-magical character could use these. A powerbuilder getting UMD should have some reason to use it IMO, (imagining any reason isn't all that difficult) and if he really fears magic so much, he shouldn't get UMD. He also shouldn't drink potions, use wands, use enchanted weapons or even party with a Wizard.
The problem here is, there is another generalisation. I am afraid of dogs IRL. There still are a couple of dogs that I really like and get along well with and am not afraid of. A goblin might be afraid of mages, because he knows one or two spells are enough to kill him. He might not trust a wizard, would accept orders however, because he wouldn't want to anger the wizard. An orc might distrust arcane casters, but accept divine ones as the influence of his god. Maybe one character really dislike magic, but he is at a pretty bad disadvantage, but if you want to make a character, it was your decision to make him... Of course, magic produced by yourself is more reliable than that of others, so you wouldn't neccessarily be afraid of wands made by yourself, but that kind of is a different issue.
Next, people were saying there are PrCs dedicated to magic-haters. As far as I know, you can request to emulate some of your classes as this one, and, as for getting bonuses enchanted armor usually would have, you could talk to DMs and see if you can request a DC item for that. If you are not willing to pay the DC cost, you shouldn't be playing that character. If you want to play a halfdragon, you need to pay for wings, feet, or anything else usually belonging to being one. A scribe needs to purchase his own scribing table too or use a public one...
Sadly, here I almost kind of have to agree to commie's post. A character can just "fake" being afraid of magic, just as one could fake any other part of one's personality. Then he wouldn't need any restrictions, but him wearing enchanted armor would be a pretty good tell IC...

In general, I'd say a player definitely shouldn't police other people's RP, but if you make a character, you should think about things like this. If he is afraid of all magic, he should not use enchanted gear. If he dislikes arcane magic, he should have a distrust of wizards and sorcerors, even though he might not neccessarily tell the difference, with both divine and arcane spellswords, and him not knowing the effect of spells the mage casts. If he dislikes others' magic, he should find a way to enchant his own equipment. Or all of these characters go fiercely against mages, even if it makes them less powerful than a magic-lover. If you care about your characters power, go powerbuilding. Don't play weird concepts that screw over your character. If you don't care about your character's power, you shouldn't care that much that he is slightly stunted, since he doesn't get any buffs.

On the other hand, this is my opinion, and this is the internet, and since it seems like every place has its trolls, someone will probably dislike this. I. Don't. Care.
Look at msheelers's signature in the forums.

IC views happen and stances for IC reasons and taking it any way other than ICly is a waste of energy. Doesn't matter who's right OOCly or not. Or how silly it is. If you wanna make a level 30 barbarian that uses loads of magic items and potions but hate spellcasters, go right ahead. Wanna create a shifter that hates shifters? Go for it! Even if that doesn't make any OOC sense, does it really matter? As long as it suits your character just fine, then what's the harm? Sure it's weird and a bit hypocritical, but try pointing that out to the barb char ICly instead of bringing it up on the forums, even if it doesn't go anywhere ICly.

Not everyone needs to make perfect sense, and as long as it's not in violation of any server rules or server lore for someone to have such views, I really don't see the harm in it at all. All that's happening by raising it on the forums, is spark a discussion on what's right and wrong and what's "best", which is just going to spark more OOC conflict on some level and make more people feel targeted or like they're not doing it "right" according to certain people on the forums. Which is frankly not constructive at all, and only creates a toxic atmosphere.

Gravemaskin wrote:

IC views happen and stances for IC reasons and taking it any way other than ICly is a waste of energy. Doesn't matter who's right OOCly or not. Or how silly it is. If you wanna make a level 30 barbarian that uses loads of magic items and potions but hate spellcasters, go right ahead. Wanna create a shifter that hates shifters? Go for it! Even if that doesn't make any OOC sense, does it really matter? As long as it suits your character just fine, then what's the harm? Sure it's weird and a bit hypocritical, but try pointing that out to the barb char ICly instead of bringing it up on the forums, even if it doesn't go anywhere ICly.

Not everyone needs to make perfect sense, and as long as it's not in violation of any server rules or server lore for someone to have such views, I really don't see the harm in it at all. All that's happening by raising it on the forums, is spark a discussion on what's right and wrong and what's "best", which is just going to spark more OOC conflict on some level and make more people feel targeted or like they're not doing it "right" according to certain people on the forums. Which is frankly not constructive at all, and only creates a toxic atmosphere.

Pretty much.

robbi320 wrote:

First of all, sorry thunderbrush for a slight forum derailment. Honestly, if someone minds me writing this, they better mind everyone elso commenting on the server dying. And I realise this almost goes past my boundaries as a simple player, but I don't care.
About exquisitlyme and commie: I could see this as a misunderstanding, but commie, your post really does sound pretty much like a troll post. If it is, wouldn't you agree that it is a bit unfair to post it in a post that seriously bothers one player? Also, shoving all players on one shelf is a really bad habit, since I know a couple of people who I don't think are evil. If they are, kudos to them for hiding it. If they aren't, well commie, I guess your post is incorrect.
Also, I think there are better ways to bring over your point than calling characters people like and invested time into "evil little shit[s]". It's like calling a painting you are proud of ugly. You probably can get over it, but it can be a pretty bad insult if you care about it.

Back on topic:
Now, first of all, commie, you say it leads to boring RP. No offense, but is that our problem, or yours making the concept? It's like saying I want to play a serial killer, who just attacks people randomly. That isn't fun either, because there are rules against it. You have to go through the whole PvP rules. But honestly, the rules are there for a reason. I personally don't like certain rules, but people are allowed to agree to skip the rules. At least I understood it like this, as long as all parties agree OOC. Getting them to agree is either your problem, or you get a DM to overrule player consent.
Now, a non-magical character would be a pretty poor character. I have to agree to some of the post, some weapons or armors (Masterwork, Adamantine, Sureforged, etc.) aren't magical, even though the game calls them "enchanted". A non-magical character could use these. A powerbuilder getting UMD should have some reason to use it IMO, (imagining any reason isn't all that difficult) and if he really fears magic so much, he shouldn't get UMD. He also shouldn't drink potions, use wands, use enchanted weapons or even party with a Wizard.

Sadly, here I almost kind of have to agree to commie's post. A character can just "fake" being afraid of magic, just as one could fake any other part of one's personality. Then he wouldn't need any restrictions, but him wearing enchanted armor would be a pretty good tell IC...

On the other hand, this is my opinion, and this is the internet, and since it seems like every place has its trolls, someone will probably dislike this. I. Don't. Care.
Look at msheelers's signature in the forums.

It's not a troll post; when I find players that do specific things (such as the ones in this topic; claim to hate magic then scroll/umd like crazy when SHTF) I do some investigative work. When I talk to PC's that have been around years, I find out the offending characters are just Sharrians and it was revealed in the Arcanum plot, and thats why the act the way they do. It's a cycle that's happened with at least five people so far (odv im not going to call them out here specifically as thats fucked up) but it was a very deflating answer that got more mundane the more it happened. It's also the truth; how can someone act so nice and then also break bread with a self-confirmed super evil character? Oh because he's a sharrian. It's boring because the secrets out and everyone knows, but the character is still just around doing their thing so whatever. Evil, liar, and traitor gods are liberating in that respect, because you can do whatever it is you want and justify it with upholding your gods mantra. Its even worse though, when it's kept a secret and then used as ic justification to exclude people from things, and then never explain yourself because "it's all ic keep it ic and go away im not explaining myself" which is something that's not personally happened to me, but I've watched happen several other times.

Also, I do think it's a very boring answer. Why does that person who claims to hate magic use so many scrolls? Oh because they worship a god of lies/depression and express this through hypocrisy. There's not that much more too it then that for some characters, that's actually all they do. Additionally, despite what you say, a concept of a serial killer character would be interesting if done correctly, ie not what you said. If suddenly NPC's in cordor and kohl started popping up dead and missing their ears that would be god damned amazing, partic if the player was smart enough to avoid divination or other types of detection.

The other argument you make, that something someone spent time on is inherently good due to the time expenditure, is also false, but that's a whole separate argument.

---

TL;DR, the key takeaway from all my posts, which I thought should have been obvious from the get-go, is that the reason some people say they hate magic and then pop four scrolls and eight potions as part of a pre-fight ritual, is that there are just a lot of deliberate hypocrite characters on the server and that has to be taken into account when you encounter it. Those individuals will also not express their true feelings, and will give you the run-around because that's actually their character goal. So if you ever see someone acting in a brazenly contrary manner, just remember that there are a half dozen or more gods of lies/depression/misery, those deities have tons of worshipers, and your character would be aware of that.

I think it may definitely sound like I am policing up other people's RP. The fact is, i don't give two diddly shitz as to whether or not it should be allowed. I think it should. Though, for the sake of looking at things from a PnP perspective, since that's everyone's scapegoat, UMD at high levels takes a concerted effort to "learn how to use magical items and relics" It can also be used for a vast number of other things, from opening magical seals and even golem craft. I'm just saying the time it would take a magic fearing person to learn all that is contrary fearing magic. The reality is it has zero to do with RP and everything to do with making a character capable of being competitive solo. Is it just a game mechanic that is commonly exploited though? Or should it be more? I wasn't really trying to invoke an argument, just frustrated. So many people want others to play the character sheet. You will at some point in Amia have to back up your actions with a diceroll. That is accepted. But a Mage Hating Barbarian that picks up any wand they want and I dunno..beats it against they're head until it makes them run fast? I guess I had just hoped that people would consider that. I guess I am policing. In that case, my humble applogies. Now...can I get DM permission to get the "jack of all trades feat?" *wink wink*

I forgot to mention threads like this as another of my reasons for leaving Amia.

I feel like we almost talked beside each other, partly due to my inexperience with any (important, influential) RP on here.
I agree that it kind of is a boring answer, but they are playing their characters... So I guess it depends on the PC. But the core is that they in that case do not actually fear magic, which also puts them aside from what this topic technically is about.

And about the serial killer, I was just trying to think of a good example where the rules have problems allowing it. If you manage it, it can probably be amazing.

thunderbrush, the UMD part what what I meant when I said people kind of should have a reason to dump something IMO. If I take one level in rogue, why did I suddenly learn to do really complicated acrobatics I couldn't do before? I also learned where people's vitals are, how to hit them, possibly even more. And UMD is even more complicated, because what do I actually do while UMD-ing? Learn the "swish and flick" and the fitting "wingardium leviosaahr"? Potions, I personally dislike using OOC, because IRL I wouldn't just drink a possibly bad-tasting drink from a stranger, much less a magical one. I use them, because it's difficult without 'em. Playing an actual magic-fearer (not the one commie described) is not something I'd want to do for that reason. If someone else wants to, in my opinion they should deal the downside of playing one.

That Guy: Sorry, but why are you here then? This would fit in a thread in Off Topic, but it isn't even tangentially related to this General Discussion...

That Guy wrote:

I forgot to mention threads like this as another of my reasons for leaving Amia.

This is a good discussion though. Nobody is mad, we're just talking about stuff.

As far as I can tell there is zero hostility here, and certainly none from me.

May have been a gut reaction to post, sorry for that. My point is that if as much effort were placed into logging in and roleplaying as debating things like this.... Amia would be a better place. This thread is just one example, hostile or not, it's just debate, and debate, and debate, over nothing really.

Sure, this doesn't belong in this thread, just felt relevant somehow.

I tend to play wonky characters. I just do. Three of which are pure classed with zero skill dumps. Puts me at a slight disadvantage, admittedly. My epic Trans/Illusion sorcerer for instance, practiced magic his whole life. As a sorcerer...that is more or less harnassing and refining such power. Yet for a lvl 7 (maybe 6) spell, Baleful Poly, he has to find someone who knows it and learn from them through RP. Same goes for Aasimar who want wings, Dragon wrought, Learning to fly, Shadow Jumping ect.. All of which are small feats in comparison to suddenly knowing how to use every magical item in game. Bards play this well. Rogues play this well. Paladins, Barbarians and what not, simply use it as an unqualified game mechanic. It makes magic and the mastery of such skills mundane when you consider that with one lvl and no explanation, someone with a slightly above average intelligence is able to unlock such mysteries without a thought.

That Guy wrote:

May have been a gut reaction to post, sorry for that. My point is that if as much effort were placed into logging in and roleplaying as debating things like this.... Amia would be a better place. This thread is just one example, hostile or not, it's just debate, and debate, and debate, over nothing really.

Sure, this doesn't belong in this thread, just felt relevant somehow.

It's all good man. Just keep in mind this server regularly has sweeps in population as the drama bombs explode and people recover, or a game comes out and people leave for a month to play it, or people log back in for the first time in a year + and decide to stick around.

I took a hiatus to play Dark Souls 3 and then Stellaris, and there are a lot of people that abandoned everything to play Overwatch 8 hours a day, so that's a factor as well. Not to mention exams and other school related stuff.

That Guy wrote:

May have been a gut reaction to post, sorry for that. My point is that if as much effort were placed into logging in and roleplaying as debating things like this.... Amia would be a better place. This thread is just one example, hostile or not, it's just debate, and debate, and debate, over nothing really.

Sure, this doesn't belong in this thread, just felt relevant somehow.

If you're looking for someone to teach you baleful polymorph just advertise a little and im sure some people will find you quickly. if not pm me.

Stupid Arcanists.

J/k.

I dunno what this topic is about. You're caling out peeps for playing a char IC while still making them use pots and magical items and challenging them not to as players? Who cares if they are hypocrites IC, it is part of their chars. Making it an OOC discussion over something that hsould be IC is pointless imo.

What bothers us (at least me, and thunderbrush too from what I understood from talks in private) is actually players being hypocrites OOC, not the characters themselves. If a character has part of his character description "acts like he doesn't like magic, really doesn't care though", like commie said, it kind of is a easy way out. But that is the character.
But if he actually, truly fears magic IC, and doesn't just fake it, he shouldn't be using potions or magical gear. It is like having a dwarf who always uses defensive stance, wears heavy armor, never had any sort of dodging training and is RPed as never dodging. Now you get 30 dodge for the 6 AC. You need them to be viable in pvp, or just to be even more powerful, but it is completely OOC convinience, and not IC reasons. This is at least what bothers me.
If the dwarf actually RPs as dodging, or in any way says he would try to dodge, it's a bit weird, technically part of the character.

What if my dwarf deflects blows with the power of mind bullets, huh? Ever thought of that, smartiepants?

Then he shouldn't use tumble to play that...

robbi320 wrote:

What bothers us (at least me, and thunderbrush too from what I understood from talks in private) is actually players being hypocrites OOC, not the characters themselves. If a character has part of his character description "acts like he doesn't like magic, really doesn't care though", like commie said, it kind of is a easy way out. But that is the character.
But if he actually, truly fears magic IC, and doesn't just fake it, he shouldn't be using potions or magical gear. It is like having a dwarf who always uses defensive stance, wears heavy armor, never had any sort of dodging training and is RPed as never dodging. Now you get 30 dodge for the 6 AC. You need them to be viable in pvp, or just to be even more powerful, but it is completely OOC convinience, and not IC reasons. This is at least what bothers me.
If the dwarf actually RPs as dodging, or in any way says he would try to dodge, it's a bit weird, technically part of the character.

i wouldn't touch tumble for the purposes of this discussion with a 10 foot pole. 6 tumble ac is literally required to have a functional character on this server; it's a mandatory skill.

it's also quite different. You never see PC's submitting a sweeping sanction on somersaults, or bringing about border-wide-ban on balance beams, then running over to the wiltun uneven bars.

tumble and umd? the two things arn't comparable from a social standpoint.

I almost get your point commie, but I was trying to rather compare magic to tumble. People say tumble's 6 AC is absolutely neccessary to play? Try playing without the 20+ AC from magic. It doesn't work either. I'm not trying to spark an argument about tumble.

To back off from my tumble argument: Imagine playing a blind Fighter without blind fight and with over 100 spot. Doesn't make sense. (Again, there might be a good RP reason behind this, but it if weird nonetheless)

robbi320 wrote:

I almost get your point commie, but I was trying to rather compare magic to tumble. People say tumble's 6 AC is absolutely neccessary to play? Try playing without the 20+ AC from magic. It doesn't work either. I'm not trying to spark an argument about tumble.

i mean, i don't play w/o the 20 ac due to magic because I don't play characters that hate magic.

robbi320 wrote:

To back off from my tumble argument: Imagine playing a blind Fighter without blind fight and with over 100 spot. Doesn't make sense. (Again, there might be a good RP reason behind this, but it if weird nonetheless)

Daredevil? I don't think you actually need a feat to be 'blind' honestly. But blind-fight is neigh mandatory and doesn't actually let you fight blind, it's not 'blind sense,' just make you slightly better at hitting things you can't see.

Looks like he meant the character is blind, not it needed to be blind to take Blind Fight. Though I would agree Daredevil would have Blind Fight ;p

100 spot, not so much. In fact, if the char is blind they technically can't take spot (even though mechanically they can) and should be taking Listen. Which would make a ton of sense for Daredevil, too!

Also, I play chars without +20AC from Epic Mage Armor all the time. They are called non-arcanists ;p

Naivatkal wrote:

Looks like he meant the character is blind, not it needed to be blind to take Blind Fight. Though I would agree Daredevil would have Blind Fight ;p

100 spot, not so much. In fact, if the char is blind they technically can't take spot (even though mechanically they can) and should be taking Listen. Which would make a ton of sense for Daredevil, too!

Also, I play chars without +20AC from Epic Mage Armor all the time. They are called non-arcanists ;p

think they meant using mundane gear, ie no enhancement/natural bonus etc

Guess you are right on the blind fight feat thing, commie. I wasn't careful while thinking about the feat. But the spot point still stands.

And I didn't mean the +20 from Epic Mage armor, I meant the +5 deflection on your enchanted cloak, your +5 on your enchanted amulet, your +5 on your enchanted boots, your +5 on your enchanted armor and possibly the +5 on the enchanted shield. If your character fears magic, he would not have these. At maximum, he would have an AC in the 20-30s, I think, maybe 40s with improved expertise... Again, when I'm talking about fearing magic, I am using the strong generalisation where he does not trust any form of magic.

commie ninja'd me... I don't feel like changing my post though.

Gothca gotcha. But, honestly, if you are playing a char without any magic you shouldn't be an adventurer. Or else stick to killing low level things XD

Well yeah. But that's what were talking about. Where do you draw the line?

I consider it UMD but that's just me.

I think it might be best not to draw a line... I mean, staying IC is important... but is there really a need to nitpick every little thing that doesn't fit perfectly? Some people have been playing their characters for years, have fleshed out the story, know them inside and out, and have created an appropriate build in line with the servers meta. Others may have just started a new character, they might not know which direction they want to take, or things they want to do. They might not know the mechanics as well as some of the veterans, and they may also be new to an roleplaying environment... So where do we draw the line? I just don't know...

Well, first of all, this is just our opinion, so not enforced at all.

But personally, I would say, if you don't know the server, it might be best if you start with a relatively normal character. If you don't, in my opinion, it's your own fault if you are not happy with anything. And I usually support any means of helping new people. (For example by completely getting rid of unfinishable quests or any references to these. *hint hint*) But there are certain things new characters should be careful with doing. And putting such a harsh restriction on yourself seems like a bad thing to do as your first character. Just ike making him a mute or starting to murder people and getting banned from all major cities almost instantly.

And personally, I'd draw the line right there where a character would not wear enchanted armor IC. Then he shouldn't.
If he does not know anything about magic, he shouldn't have dump for UMD. (I have a slight bias for Rogue, Assassin and Bard, since they are allowed to take it anyway)
If he does not trust (using "trust" as "dislikes it enough to not be wanting to have anything to with it IC") divine magic, he shouldn't cast divine-only spells. Even if it means he can't raise people.
If he does not trust (using "trust" as "dislikes it enough to not be wanting to have anything to with it IC") arcane magic, he shouldn't cast arcane-only spells.
We are on a RP server, so you should at least play your character.

Again, personal opinion, only mine, so no idea what the others think.

Anti-magic sentiment or : Isn't that convenient.

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